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WOuld this change to Tetryon Weapons be valid?

timelord79timelord79 Member Posts: 1,852 Arc User
Atm Tetryon energy weapons drain a bit of shield hp from the target with every hit, or at least have a chance to do so.

But that value is fixed and the reason tetryons suck so badly.

Make the value higher and it becomes OP against players. As it is it is underpowered against NPCs because they have so high capacities.

So why not change it to a shield percentage that gets drained?
That would automatically account for high capacity NPCs and lower capacity players.
WIth a hardcap of shield points drained so a team of tetryon cannon ships won't roflstomp the Vaadwaur dread in Korfez, etc.

Is there a downside to such a change that I can't see right now or would this work to give that weapon type some meaning again?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • rodentmasterrodentmaster Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    The size of the "chunk" that tetryon can remove from shields is not fixed. It will changed based on your flow caps skill.

    The problem is twofold:

    1) The proc chance is far too low to ever be useful, even in pre-DR times. Now that they nerfed the only potentially useful tetryon weapon into uselessness, that's worse than ever.

    2) Enemy NPC shields are too strong, and regen far too fast. 100% of all boss ships have an infinite amount of regeneration and recover ALL damage before you can make a second attack run. You kill these ships 100% of the time by pure bleedthrough damage. That means you're doing 10x or even 20x the damage needed to kill the ship, but through BS coding "magic" hax, the NPCs ignore almost all of it and only the bleedthrough kills them. This is true for all but the lowest of mobs in this game right now.

    If they changed the stupid game mechanic where 100% of damage has to be bleedthrough, and lowered NPC shield regen rates MASSIVELY, and then upped tetryon MASSIVELY to a higher % chance of proc, and then on top of that added a new proc to all tetryon that stop NPCs from healing their shields for 10 seconds after the proc kicks in, then MAYBE... MAYBE tetryon might have a use.


    As it stands now, the problem is that tetryon drains that which cannot be drained. Shields. Hell, the misplaced decimal in the tachyon beam update has done a billion times more shield damage in the past week than tetryon has since the game started.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    If the Tetryon proc were written to the combatlog, folks could better quantify what's going on (same with drains in general). Just arbitrary numbers, but 500 drain and 500 damage are both 500 gone from shields...just one isn't written to the log.
  • rodentmasterrodentmaster Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    If the Tetryon proc were written to the combatlog, folks could better quantify what's going on (same with drains in general). Just arbitrary numbers, but 500 drain and 500 damage are both 500 gone from shields...just one isn't written to the log.

    That has very little to do with it. Whether it's in the logs or not doesn't change the ineffectiveness of the proc based on the current NPC game mechanics.
  • norobladnoroblad Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    ? did something change?

    -- atm .. pure tet weapons drain once in a while, not every shot, its 2.5% proc like all the others.
    -- atm .. tet drains based off your flow caps ... a sci ship with big flow caps drains a very significant amount when it procs.

    the only drain per hit is tet glider effect from the set, I *think*. Unless something else has a similar effect (??) . This one is very low but it ALSO is buffed by flow caps. Don't underestimate it though... 8 rapid fire turrets with decent FC can drain like 500 shields / second or so and dual (not heavy) cannons with turrets aft and rapid fire can really tear up even a boss NPC's shields.

    Something changed in the last patch and flow caps buff these effects LESS now and aux power and, oddly, weapon power both seem to buff the effects instead. The end result is actually higher drains than before on every ship I tested it with, which was like 3 ships (on science FC heavy, one tac escort, and a carrier).

    Shield drains can be very effective but you need a lot of them, not just one source. Combine tet weapons with tet glider and a draining tractor beam (needs officer to drain shields) and the other drains and you can do pretty well. But even maxed out, it still can't beat an AP escort.

    Tet weapons are inferior because they do nothing to the hull and not enough to the shields. I can strip shields faster with just pure damage from AP. These less effective procs should maybe be either buffed or the rate increased dramatically... several types of weapons just do not do enough when they proc to be effective.
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    That has very little to do with it. Whether it's in the logs or not doesn't change the ineffectiveness of the proc based on the current NPC game mechanics.

    But uh...
    If the Tetryon proc were written to the combatlog, folks could better quantify what's going on (same with drains in general). Just arbitrary numbers, but 500 drain and 500 damage are both 500 gone from shields...just one isn't written to the log.

    If you can't quantify the issue for Cryptic, how can they address the issue?

    Oh, I was out walking along the beach one morning while thinking about Tetryon and I don't think it's quite up to par. I've got no numbers to support that or anything, but I've got a really strong feeling about it that way.

    vs.

    This is how little Tetryon's standard proc is providing during the course of a combat engagement. As you can see compared to the benefits provided from other procs, Tetryon is underperforming.
    noroblad wrote: »
    Tet weapons are inferior because they do nothing to the hull and not enough to the shields. I can strip shields faster with just pure damage from AP. These less effective procs should maybe be either buffed or the rate increased dramatically... several types of weapons just do not do enough when they proc to be effective.

    Or AP needs to be changed...cause it's only going to be in certain situations where anything can match the proc based off of CrtH instead of that 2.5-4.5%.
    noroblad wrote: »
    Something changed in the last patch and flow caps buff these effects LESS now and aux power and, oddly, weapon power both seem to buff the effects instead. The end result is actually higher drains than before on every ship I tested it with, which was like 3 ships (on science FC heavy, one tac escort, and a carrier).

    Could that have happened with the changes they made to how Tachyon Beam worked...that they ended up changing how the proc worked?

    The...

    "Benefit that can be gained from Auxiliary Power and Flow Capacitors reduced."

    ...change made to Tachyon Beam. Could the other part of that come into play as well?

    "Base magnitudes increased dramatically."

    I just don't have a toon that runs Tet since before DR (not changed because of DR or anything, just a case of going to a single toon)...and well, heh, my choice of useless shield proc against targets that almost never have shields would be Vaad Polaron (it's just so cool looking while being useless). :D

    edit: Got me curious enough to grab a few to take a look at a few things.

    99 Flow Caps / 114 Weapon Power / 66 Aux Power

    Common Tetryon Beam Array Mk XI: -502.8 damage to All Shields
    Uncommon Beam Array Mk XI [Acc]: -502.8 damage to All Shields
    Uncommon Beam Array Mk XI [Dmg]: -502.8 damage to All Shields
    Common Tetryon Beam Array Mk XII: -527.2 damage to All Shields

    So neither Rarity nor [Dmg] modify the "damage"; but the Mark does. So will just look at the C11 and C12 variants for the rest.

    99 Flow Caps / 46 Weapon Power / 39 Aux Power

    C11: 502.8
    C12: 527.2

    No change with Weapon Power/Aux Power. Popping QSM for the +100 Sci Skills taking me to 199 Flow Caps.

    C11: 671
    C12: 703.5

    And when the +100 wore off (down to 99 again), they showed.

    C11: 553.1
    C12: 579.9

    Took a second to realize what it was, lol. Shield Frequency Modulation. The Cruiser Command Aura...I was in Jenolan so Auras can be active. Going to smoke before checking the QSM numbers again. Those QSM numbers were fine...and the Shield Frequency Modulation boosts them by 10% so they'd be 738.1 & 773.9 - lol/meh.

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  • themetalstickmanthemetalstickman Member Posts: 1,005 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Upgraded Dominion Polaron is the way to go. Shield and power drain, all buffed by flow caps. That's what I have on my drain build
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  • guilli88guilli88 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Just give tetrions 5% shield pen* and remove the shield dmg proc.

    As in, 5% of all damage goes to hull directly.

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  • pl1700pl1700 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I feel like the issue isn't so much the tetryon weapons (even though they are the weakest against hull), as it is the NPC shield capacity. Since it doesn't show up in their info boxes, or I just don't know where to look, I don't know exactly what that capacity is.

    Example: I was fighting a Vaadwaur Assault Cruiser and its info box had its hull at 628,623. After I finally got through it's shields, it didn't take long to kill.

    So I may just be ignorant here, but to me, that means shields are effectively in the millions. So short of doing what Timeloard suggested (having them take down a percentage of shield strength), I don't see tetryon weapons becoming a valuable asset any time soon.

    (I hope this makes sense, It's late/early but I wanted to put my two cents in before bed)
  • jerichoredoranjerichoredoran Member Posts: 195 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Cant give you closer numbers, but they are not in the millions.
    Shields can regenerate while you're hammering on them. Also the npc shields have resists (damage reduction), what most of their hulls miss.
  • tk79tk79 Member Posts: 1,020 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    timelord79 wrote: »
    So why not change it to a shield percentage that gets drained?

    Because using percentages in such a manner exposes a design flaw: it negates the shield capacity of the target. It allows a power to be effective the same way against all targets, high or low capacity, which is wrong. If an enemy has higher shield capacity, they should resist things more. Low cap shields should drop quicker. That sort of thing. It's a basic principle.

    What you suggest is what exactly happens with crew damage (bugged). It's using percentages instead of absolute numbers and causing issues everywhere, since forever.

    Also worth nothing how snowball damage works in the Winter Wonderland: they take down a % of your HP, no matter how much max HP you have. But unlike normal maps, this is deliberately intended, as the devs clearly stated that gear should have no effect in that zone, which, considering it's an event, is reasonable. This is not the case with normal maps, and shouldn't be.
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  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,217 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The universe would be a better place if there wasn't such a discrepancy in player and NPC stats in the first place.
  • ursusmorologusursusmorologus Member Posts: 5,328 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The way to fix tets is to change the proc so that it adds a delay to the shield regen
  • royalsovereignroyalsovereign Member Posts: 1,344 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    The way to fix tets is to change the proc so that it adds a delay to the shield regen

    Or perhaps provides a significant debuff to shield hardness/resistance.
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  • schloopdooschloopdoo Member Posts: 366 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    It sounds to me as if any effort to make tetryon weapons worth installing would have to begin with getting player ships and NPCs to play by the same rules.

    If the game's code was successfully simulating the starship combat that it's trying to simulate, then stripping the enemy's shields to expose its hull to one's torpedoes would how you win, and a shield draining energy weapon would have a leg up. (And also torpedoes would be worth equipping).

    It's because NPCs play by a different set of rules that we're trying to find all these metagame solutions, like crit severity weapons whose chance to proc can be boosted by raising one's crit chance.
  • orion0029orion0029 Member Posts: 1,108 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2015
    Just my $0.02 here, but I'd think replacing the 'shield drain' proc with (insert arbitrary number here) tetryon damage* proc, would make Tetryon weapons more useful, and of course boostable through flow caps. The magnitude of the boost may have to be slightly reduced since it'd be dealing hull damage...

    This would allow Tetryons to be useful against unshielded targets, while still maintaining some nasty shield-killing abilities.

    (Also worth noting, changing it to damage instead of drain would also make it appear in the combat log. :P)

    *2.0x damage vs. shields, 1.0x vs. unshielded hull (but not both at once)

    Edit: rephrased shield vs. hull damage as to avoid confusion.
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,060 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    orion0029 wrote: »
    Just my $0.02 here, but I'd think replacing the 'shield drain' with (insert arbitrary number here) tetryon damage, 2.0x to shields, 1.0x to hull, would make Tetryon weapons more useful, and of course boostable through flow caps. The magnitude of the boost may have to be slightly reduced since it'd be dealing hull damage...

    This would allow Tetryons to be useful against unshielded targets, while still maintaining some nasty shield-killing abilities.

    (Also worth noting, changing it to damage instead of drain would also make it appear in the combat log. :P)

    So, basically 100% shield bypassing mechanic with energy weapons?
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  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,146 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    I wouldn't mind seeing their proc get changed to something more substantial.. but I really don't get all the stigma behind Tetryons. They still have the exact same base damage as every other damage type. They're one of the few damage types that can double-stack bonus damage type and I'd argue they're more useful than phasers when you consider NPC disable lockout periods and the constant shielding everything has now. The proc isn't much, but I wouldn't call it 'useless'.
  • orion0029orion0029 Member Posts: 1,108 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2015
    So, basically 100% shield bypassing mechanic with energy weapons?

    Not what I meant, I should have said that the tet damage from the proc would be greater against shields as opposed to damaging bare hulls.

    I should really edit that...
  • schloopdooschloopdoo Member Posts: 366 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    szerontzur wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind seeing their proc get changed to something more substantial.. but I really don't get all the stigma behind Tetryons. They still have the exact same base damage as every other damage type. They're one of the few damage types that can double-stack bonus damage type and I'd argue they're more useful than phasers when you consider NPC disable lockout periods and the constant shielding everything has now. The proc isn't much, but I wouldn't call it 'useless'.

    I'm planning on putting together a Nukara Refracting Tetryon build as soon as my Delta Recruit gets his rep high enough. I've been meaning to do it forever, for the laughs, but the possibility of all that AOE coupled with the Tactical Piloting Escort's torpedo console adds up to too much comedy to pass up.

    Alternatively, I may just replay "Installation 18" until I have a set of Piercing Tetryon weapons, which do have an additional "ignore shields" proc like the kind some of us have been talking about.
  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,536 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2015
    The problem with tetryon is that it ultimately doesn't help too much of the time, especially in PvE.

    First there's the targets that just don't have shields. Against these, tet are worthless.

    Then there's the targets that you kill via bleedthrough. Since the shields never go down, the tetryon proc, while it occurs, is worthless.

    Then there's targets that have no shield rebalancing. Against these, only the drain of one facing matters. And once you empty that facing, all further tet procs are worthless, since the only side you're shooting at doesn't have shields.

    And off the top of my head, the targets that do rebalance shields (cough cough bosses) not only have very high PI levels (so the drain is minimal), but they're basically always killed by bleedthrough anyway.
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  • darkknightucfdarkknightucf Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
    edited May 2015
    The problem with tetryon is that it ultimately doesn't help too much of the time, especially in PvE.

    First there's the targets that just don't have shields. Against these, tet are worthless.

    Then there's the targets that you kill via bleedthrough. Since the shields never go down, the tetryon proc, while it occurs, is worthless.

    Then there's targets that have no shield rebalancing. Against these, only the drain of one facing matters. And once you empty that facing, all further tet procs are worthless, since the only side you're shooting at doesn't have shields.

    And off the top of my head, the targets that do rebalance shields (cough cough bosses) not only have very high PI levels (so the drain is minimal), but they're basically always killed by bleedthrough anyway.

    Sadly, from my experiences, the above is all true for the newer content. For the older content, you can overpower the shields and hull for all but the bosses (or weirdly coded Spheres).
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  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    Tetryons could be vastly improved if the proc either reduced shield resistances or reduced shield regen rates, possibly along with stripping off some HP's

    That way at least you are providing a useful gap in the survivabilty of the NPC's and not just spamming easily healed damage procs at them.
    Stripping shields is fine and dandy but when even 0.001% of a shield can stop a full volley of torps and knock off 75% of their damage you know it's not making sense. Your proc is worthless if the enemy regens before you can even get a shot to hit home.

    Really shields as a whole could do with an overhaul.

    As their HP's lower so should their resistances to damage. A very low shield should have barely the capacity to absorb a torp but a fully shield facing would obviously be much better.
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  • welcome2earfwelcome2earf Member Posts: 1,740 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    For the longest time, the biggest problem was, and still is, that post-shields, tetryons offer nothing. That being said, they deserve a higher chance to proc or something.

    HOWEVER: Ground tetryon weapons DO still have a place; when they proc, it is a NOTICEABLE chunk of an NPC's shields percentage wise; in certain situations, that proc can be the difference between life or death of yourself when eliminating a threat. Granted, ground combat does go quicker...but with certain boss NPCs this can be a boon (provided you don't have a Tr-116b...)
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  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,060 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    For the longest time, the biggest problem was, and still is, that post-shields, tetryons offer nothing. That being said, they deserve a higher chance to proc or something.

    HOWEVER: Ground tetryon weapons DO still have a place; when they proc, it is a NOTICEABLE chunk of an NPC's shields percentage wise; in certain situations, that proc can be the difference between life or death of yourself when eliminating a threat. Granted, ground combat does go quicker...but with certain boss NPCs this can be a boon (provided you don't have a Tr-116b...)

    There was a special reward Tetryon weapon type that had a 10% proc rate but Cryptic nerfed the hell out of that. It was a reward from "The New Link."

    STOwiki still has the pre-nerfed values. It's now down to 2.5% proc chance. I remember a buddy screaming mad when this nerf came in. He had a full set of those things. Now they're all completely useless.
    *********
    How about this for a change on the Tetryon Proc: A +% of bonus damage to shields for 15 seconds. Non-stacking but new procs reset the timer back to the max of 15 seconds.

    It could be the anti-shield version of Disruptor proc, which is against hull. 15 seconds is also the duration of the standard Disruptor proc.

    I recommend this because the damage possible with current Tetryon proc on shields, even on a high Flow Caps build, isn't enough.
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  • welcome2earfwelcome2earf Member Posts: 1,740 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    There was a special reward Tetryon weapon type that had a 10% proc rate but Cryptic nerfed the hell out of that. It was a reward from "The New Link."

    STOwiki still has the pre-nerfed values. It's now down to 2.5% proc chance. I remember a buddy screaming mad when this nerf came in. He had a full set of those things. Now they're all completely useless.
    *********
    How about this for a change on the Tetryon Proc: A +% of bonus damage to shields for 15 seconds. Non-stacking but new procs reset the timer back to the max of 15 seconds.

    It could be the anti-shield version of Disruptor proc, which is against hull. 15 seconds is also the duration of the standard Disruptor proc.

    I recommend this because the damage possible with current Tetryon proc on shields, even on a high Flow Caps build, isn't enough.


    Yeah, that nerf was...weird. I mean, was it game breaking? Was there an issue wit hit? Heck, even PvPers weren't complaining about it...so with all the things in the game that need attention, they decide to overnerf the ONE tetryon weapon that was worth a TRIBBLE. *Facepalms to infinity*
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  • lordsteve1lordsteve1 Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    edited May 2015
    How about this for a change on the Tetryon Proc: A +% of bonus damage to shields for 15 seconds. Non-stacking but new procs reset the timer back to the max of 15 seconds.

    It could be the anti-shield version of Disruptor proc, which is against hull. 15 seconds is also the duration of the standard Disruptor proc.

    This would be good, however it still doesn't solve the problem that once the shields are down the proc is no use.

    The major issues with tetryon are:

    1) the proc removes too little shield HP's (together with enemy shields healing easily).
    2) once shields are off the proc is useless.
    3) even if you get a decent flow of procs even less than 1% of a shield will still stop most damage (especially torps).

    You'd think that tetryon would be excellent for torp boats but it's not even close because it still doesn't change the massive resistance shields have to kinetic damage. Even for a torp boat you're better off with any other energy type as you'll likely take the shields down just as well and have a better proc to boot.

    Adding in some sort of secondary effect such as reducing shield regen or resistance on other facings would at least give tetryons a fair playing field compared to other energy types and make them useful for some build types.
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