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Attack Pattern Beta
matthew486dx
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
So, I've been really testing this a lot lately and downloading the combatlogs from the DPS league and seeing how people get 80k+
I find that in a lot of cases, this is mainly due to the stacking of Attack Pattern Beta. What I've come to find, is that Attack Pattern Beta's diminishing returns are severely lacking, when compared to the diminishing returns curve of Damage Resistance Magnitude.
The negative damage resistance magnitude, stacks entirely differently. So I pulled my recluse out of mothballs, and i only have say, Advanced Mesh weavers. They have APB2. So assuming it's the stock power, without a buff from attack patterns, that should be about -29~ damage resistance. So I shot at a test dummy, in a PvP challenge that had 0% damage resistance magnitude. The four stacks of APB2, brought it to -99~ damage resistance. Now, 4 x -29 should have been -116~, but -99 is still pretty close. When I added my own APB3 to the mix, that brings us to -165 with the addition of another -49 (with my attack patterns spec) which brought the resistance debuff to -132%.
So initially, the damage resist diminishing returns of -116 DRM, brought us 17 points less debuff. While -165 DRM, brought us 32 points less debuff. So it seems by these results for every -50 DRM, you lose about 0.05 effectiveness. -99 is 0.85x-116 and -132 = 0.80x-165
However, these numbers are very rough, and I'm sure there has to be much more to this formula, otherwise you could potentially break the game, and your debuff could turn into a buff for the enemy or you could reach some crazy infinity point where you get -1,000 DRM.
A dev to comment on how Negative DRM is calculated, would be appriated as the normal DRM curve for positive DR does not apply, obviously, or we would soft cap at -70%~~
For reference: http://sto.gamepedia.com/Damage_resistance
So, basically if a target has 40 DRM, (28.3% resistance) it takes -40 DRM to bring it to 0. However, after that, any number below 0 up to -50, seems to have no diminishing returns and somewhere between -50 and -100, dimininshing returns of an unknown curve begin to show. However, this curve is obviously FAR less steep than the Positive DRM curve.
So devs, what is the Negative DRM curve?
I find that in a lot of cases, this is mainly due to the stacking of Attack Pattern Beta. What I've come to find, is that Attack Pattern Beta's diminishing returns are severely lacking, when compared to the diminishing returns curve of Damage Resistance Magnitude.
The negative damage resistance magnitude, stacks entirely differently. So I pulled my recluse out of mothballs, and i only have say, Advanced Mesh weavers. They have APB2. So assuming it's the stock power, without a buff from attack patterns, that should be about -29~ damage resistance. So I shot at a test dummy, in a PvP challenge that had 0% damage resistance magnitude. The four stacks of APB2, brought it to -99~ damage resistance. Now, 4 x -29 should have been -116~, but -99 is still pretty close. When I added my own APB3 to the mix, that brings us to -165 with the addition of another -49 (with my attack patterns spec) which brought the resistance debuff to -132%.
So initially, the damage resist diminishing returns of -116 DRM, brought us 17 points less debuff. While -165 DRM, brought us 32 points less debuff. So it seems by these results for every -50 DRM, you lose about 0.05 effectiveness. -99 is 0.85x-116 and -132 = 0.80x-165
However, these numbers are very rough, and I'm sure there has to be much more to this formula, otherwise you could potentially break the game, and your debuff could turn into a buff for the enemy or you could reach some crazy infinity point where you get -1,000 DRM.
A dev to comment on how Negative DRM is calculated, would be appriated as the normal DRM curve for positive DR does not apply, obviously, or we would soft cap at -70%~~
For reference: http://sto.gamepedia.com/Damage_resistance
So, basically if a target has 40 DRM, (28.3% resistance) it takes -40 DRM to bring it to 0. However, after that, any number below 0 up to -50, seems to have no diminishing returns and somewhere between -50 and -100, dimininshing returns of an unknown curve begin to show. However, this curve is obviously FAR less steep than the Positive DRM curve.
So devs, what is the Negative DRM curve?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Matthew@Matthew486DX -> Eng Lvl 60
FAW/Tank: Tactical Oddyessy T5-U, Tank/Heal Science Oddyessy T5-U, DPS Cruiser: A2B Battlecruiser T5-U, DPS/Debuff Tholian Recluse T5-U
Fleet Admiral: Angry Tribbles
Matthew@Matthew486DX -> Eng Lvl 60
FAW/Tank: Tactical Oddyessy T5-U, Tank/Heal Science Oddyessy T5-U, DPS Cruiser: A2B Battlecruiser T5-U, DPS/Debuff Tholian Recluse T5-U
Fleet Admiral: Angry Tribbles
Post edited by matthew486dx on
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But yeah, the curves of the diminishing returns are very much different.
+10: 9.08%
+50: 32.81%
+100: 48.00%
+150: 56.25%
+200: 61.22%
+300: 66.67%
-10: -9.99%
-50: -48.84%
-100: -92.31%
-150: -128.57%
-200: -157.89%
-300: -200.00%
Yet, +300 vs. -300 will be 44.44%...only a loss of 22.23%.
+200 vs. -300 would be 31.15%...
+100 vs. -300 would be -6.08%...
+50 vs. -300 would be -57.47%...
But yep, that NPC with +0 DRR/0% DR...that's -200% which translates into 300% damage.
If instead of giving NPCs a flat amount of health - if they'd worked in some damage resistance to give them an effective amount of health...game would be a wee bit different than it is.
But we all know why they used HP-increase over all other possibilities. Its easy to implement and easy to understand (for the players). A healpower and damage resistence are also easy to implement (as long as you dont invent new ones), but not so easy to understand
We all know what happens to a bit too much challenging AIs in STO. They get hit by the nerfbat.
And of course people would have to adapt, apb might even become obligatory (if someone finds irony here, read the upper sentences
Yay comprehensive formula.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Say a given NPC had 32.8% DR (from 50 DRR), would the average player really be confused by the difference from having to do ~372.024 damage to a target instead of having to do ~372,024 damage to a target? Would it be the display thing? They'd see 250,000 but wonder why they had to do ~372,024 damage? The players themselves have damage resistance...wouldn't they understand the mobs having damage resistance?
With that 50 DRR for the 250,000 health mob...
-300 DRR would take it from 32.8% DR to -57.47% DR, meaning an increase of 57.47% hull damage.
Without that 50 DRR, having the ~372,024 health mob instead...
-300 DRR would take it form 0.0% DR to -200.00% DR, meaning an increase of 200.00% hull damage.
Say we had an attack doing an average of 3000 and applied the -300 DRR...
vs. the 50 DRR mob; 4724.1 average, requiring ~53 hits against an unshielded target (250,000 hull).
vs. the 0 DRR mob; 9000.0 average, requiring ~38 hits against an unshielded target (~372,024 hull).
While if we had that 3000 without applying the -300 DRR...
vs. the 50 DRR mob; 2016 average, requiring ~125 hits against an unshielded target (250,000 hull).
vs. the 0 DRR mob; 3000 average, requiring ~125 hits against an unshielded target (~372,024 hull).
Debuffing targets would still be good, just not as good...
...and one would naturally get into the higher DRR/DR for the "boss" mobs over the "trash" mobs.
* * * * *
Course, if one was going to look at that - and - if they'd played other games, they might start to wonder about the whole "Mirror Universe" thing going on with preferable mods...wondering why mobs in instances didn't require some form of "Hit" gear to avoid that major loss of DPS, once again with "boss" mobs requiring more "Hit" than "trash" mobs. How it's kind of backwards in this game with PvP looking at [Acc] and PvE looking at [CrtD].
* * * * *
Course, the forums would explode and destroy the known universe if either change was slightly considered in the least.
Okay, this is good intel. You show up to -300 just like the +300. But let's go for broke here. Say you had four recluse with Elite Mesh Weavers and everyone on the team huddled together and also used APB2+3. That's roughly
−250+4(4 x −40) = -890
What is the effective damage resistance then? Does it ever cap or soft cap? Can you keep going until you can't go anymore?
Matthew@Matthew486DX -> Eng Lvl 60
FAW/Tank: Tactical Oddyessy T5-U, Tank/Heal Science Oddyessy T5-U, DPS Cruiser: A2B Battlecruiser T5-U, DPS/Debuff Tholian Recluse T5-U
Fleet Admiral: Angry Tribbles
-890 is -276.5%
-690 is -265.1%
-490 is -243.4%
-1090 is -283.2%
-1290 is -287.4%
-2500 is -296.2%
-4500 is -298.8%
...it's just the "cap" isn't as low, so it starts later.
+6900 is 74.97% vs -6900 is -299.5%
+69 is 39.8% vs. -69 is -66.2%
Matthew@Matthew486DX -> Eng Lvl 60
FAW/Tank: Tactical Oddyessy T5-U, Tank/Heal Science Oddyessy T5-U, DPS Cruiser: A2B Battlecruiser T5-U, DPS/Debuff Tholian Recluse T5-U
Fleet Admiral: Angry Tribbles
EDIT: But anyway...a quote from the Unified Thread of Equations..."That is interesting. He claimed that there would not only be no diminishing returns for stacking debuffs, but that there would be increasing returns. That is not the behaviour I have seen."
And yet, that is exactly what you would expect to see. There's only one point on the curve where returns would diminish in both directions and that would be zero. What we likely are not seeing is a cap on negative returns as well as negative ratings not being diminished before they are put into the standard resistance percentage formula.
But this isn't news.
But seriously, give Tactical Team out to the NPCs. GG!
There would be a variety of abilities that I would give them, both defensive and offensive. As well as reducing their actual hull while providing damage resistance to supply equivalent effective health taking into account that I'd also give them heals. In doing so, though, I'd also reduce their numbers.
Hey, have you played with the Heralds in Space?
And no matter what way you slice it, it still stacks horrendously more than it should based on relative mechanics of other powers in the game.
My main problem with it is the fact that borg structures in most STFs, represent the bulk of the hitpoints that you have a DPS race to destroy. And they are shielded. So, APB becomes a huge impact on your DPS. Otherwise, normally APB would only help your shield penetrating damage or damage to hull once shields are down. But 80% of the hitpoints in a Borg STF are unshielded raw hitpoints ripe for debuffing. So for the past 3 years I have recommended APB3 for builds. However, I respect and understand, especially now, that other options may be better for other newer STFs, especially targets with higher shields.
Most of my equipment is still MK XII Very Rare. And I still pull about 20k-30k DPS before debuffs depending on the toon.
When I ran the 120k log from the DPS league leaderboard through the old combat parser plugin that did not accound for resists, the DPS showed 42k. So if I'm 10k DPS away from what could be 120k with APB stacks all to hell and without MK XIV gear and purple doffs or finished specialization trees (not even close), then I feel just a little bit more proud of myself.
Before Febuary 15, I haven't played since Sphere of Influence was new. And even then I hadn't played the mission. I didn't get even the free ships or gear since then. I had lost interest in the game for a while and real life took a lot of priority. But I'm back now and I've got 8 toons to gear for war. It's a lot of grinding to start all at once. Back when MK XII purple or UR was the best, I had all you could have on all my toons. I kept making new toons because I had reached the peak of power and was bored. Now that gear is not so grand and it's a bit overwhelming.
I think I'm doing just fine considering the lack of unlocks and gear I have. But the people in the DPS channels are quite the elitist types and come off as rude most of the time if you aren't on their level or suggest even the slightest deviation from their godly builds. god forbid. I was doing 10k-15k DPS in 2012, I've taken some of that gear and those setups and brought them up to 15k and 20k, and while I'm slowly adding the "new stuff" like stacking loads of CrtH and CrtD weapons, I'm approaching 30k+ and I'm still like only 15 specialization points in, only like, 30 to go. A little respect for what I can do with 3 year old builds and gear, would be nice.
When I left, I saw a Scimitar do 30k and I through that was rediculous. I came back and I saw 180k.
These people have given me a complex. And only just now am I starting to resolve it, one piece of information... and gear... at a time.
Rant over. I'm going to go take a chill pill and just finish leveling my toons and playing the story/foundry missions. And maybe someday I'll have finished again.
Matthew@Matthew486DX -> Eng Lvl 60
FAW/Tank: Tactical Oddyessy T5-U, Tank/Heal Science Oddyessy T5-U, DPS Cruiser: A2B Battlecruiser T5-U, DPS/Debuff Tholian Recluse T5-U
Fleet Admiral: Angry Tribbles
Say we look at the top ten and their Damage/BaseDamage/% vs the Gateway.
1) 120k: 2171307 / 991881 / ~218.9%
2) 113k: 3359198 / 1408038 / ~238.6%
3) 104k: 2693683 / 1279102 / ~210.6%
4) 97k: 1903141 / 679308 / ~280.2%
5) 92k: 3273180 / 1500584 / ~218.1%
6) 91k: 4080237 / 1774422 / ~229.9%
7) 90k: 3322976 / 1186754 / ~280.0%
8) 90k: 4115134 / 2455875 / ~167.6%
9) 90k: 2077256 / 1000497 / ~207.6%
10 87k: 5287040 / 2128604 / ~248.4%
Say we look at the top person from my last ten runs while looking at the same as above.
1) 18k: 1544831 / 738763 / ~209.1%
2) 15k: 3200396 / 1666684 / ~192.0%
3) 47k: 2498796 / 1313536 / ~190.2%
4) 30k: 2033392 / 1005123 / ~202.3%
5) 22k: 1576475 / 736850 / ~213.9%
6) 20k: 2334556 / 1632615 / ~143.0%
7) 18k: 2355433 / 1462617 / ~161.0%
8) 21k: 2086356 / 1066991 / ~195.5%
9) 31k: 2709890 / 1089581 / ~248.7%
10) 18k: 1133414 / 570507 / ~198.7%
Say we looked at the average between the two.
TopTen) 32283152 / 14405065 / ~224.1%
LastTenPug) 21473539 / 11283267 / ~190.3%
A difference of ~33.8%...
...isn't what's getting those guys to 87k+ vs. those 15k-47k guys.
And with those Pug runs...who knows where the Tacs tossed their FoMMs or where the Sci tossed their Scans.
The old Borg STF's were tuned for a different game. There was no reasonable way for developers to anticipate the level of resistance debuffing that has been achieved or the level of critical chance/severity.
I'ts OLD content. It's like rolling over HMS Victory with the Nimitz. Hopefully the new content will go further down the path of interesting AI behavior. Or we can look forward to the first 15 second ISA run.
As an aside, it is very interesting to look at what ship abilities and stats were for the first year. Knowing that and having a bit of a grasp of the combat system in this game goes a long way towards helping one understand what happened.
You haven't hit up the Herald Sphere? This is the feedback thread over on Tribble for it: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1403671
But feedback appears to have petered out almost a month ago. Running an event like Delta Recruits while everything else is going on and then trying to get folks to hit up Tribble...heh...good luck with that, eh?
I'm still kind of surprised that the Borg STFs haven't seen a "revamp" to bring them more in line to the other queues...kind of like what Cryptic's been doing with their arc revamps and so forth.
Course, they added Tachyon Beam and a bunch of folks had a cow. Same kind of went for so many enemy species that found themselves nerfed either before hitting Holo or even after hitting Holo.
Can't imagine what the rage is going to be like for folks for some of the Herald stuff...even though some will find it mindnumbing others are going to have a dairy farm spanning two states worth of cows about it.
Hit me up and we can BOTH go!
Love your sig! When can we add your byline to that site?