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MACO = Marine Corps, after all
karmog
Member Posts: 115 Arc User
I've made a point about it way back in Septembersee the last post in the thread for summaryalong with proving that Starfleet is a space navy and a military organization, despite its claim. Even now when STO confirms it, some people are still in denial:
The few. The proud.
STO isn't the only one to make a reference to the marines either:
This is clearly a reference to semper fidelis.
Remember that CBS is behind STO.
The few. The proud.
STO isn't the only one to make a reference to the marines either:
The MACO motto was Semper Invictus, Latin for "forever invincible". (ENT - The Romulan War novel: Beneath the Raptor's Wing, STO novel: The Needs of the Many)
This is clearly a reference to semper fidelis.
Remember that CBS is behind STO.
Post edited by karmog on
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That being said, i would love a new character class for MACOs, with a new boot camp tutorial, complete with a quick time event quarterdeck or sand pit mission (if you haven't taken a vacation to Paris Island, such a mission would involve a lot of pushing ... and crunching ... and other unpleasantness).
Did you seriously just create this thread to respond to a dead thread from last year?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I think it was in response to the most recent delta recruit blog featuring a MACO poster with one of the USMCs slogans.
The few. The proud. The Marines.
Yeah, I saw the poster. But the OP is claiming that people are "in denial" about this. What people? Who is he responding to? All I saw was a dead thread from last year that he linked to in the OP.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Yes, the OP was wrong about Starfleet, but your also mistaken if you feel the MACOs are part of Starfleet. They are affiliated, sure, but Enterprise made it very clear that they are two different organisations. MACOs only answer to Starfleet when stationed on a Starfleet vessel.
Starfleet is in charge of exploration, diplomacy, and naval warfare. MACOs are the ground pounders, fighting the Federation's battles on land and conducting boarding operations.
Starfleet is more analogous to the 18th to 19th Century navies that involved basically the same mission parameters including first contact, exploration, anti-piracy patrols, and so on.
In terms of MACOs, Enterprise's Starfleet is a very confusing service and with the addition of MACOs, that mucks up the water even more. However, we see Starfleet Ground forces in DS9 that is the spiritual successor to the MACO service. Now, in STO time, the Federation has been at war or at least in a war footing since the later 2390s. So the 25th Century MACO can possibly be an entire new Starfleet branch.
I agree. In Enterprise, my opinion is that the MACO div. were very similar to the corps as it was in ww2 and earlier. Although considered a sub-branch of the navy, marines have distinguished themselves time and again to earn the right to be see and treated as a separate branch. Proof of this is when most of us list our country's (USA), military branches: Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, and Coast Guard. The marines purpose was to be a sub-branch of military personnel that had advanced training in CQB and firearm/melee combat when their ship would board another ship, or to repel hostile boarding parties. Regular sailors were only trained extensively in ship maintenance and operations back then.
When it was apparent that their fighting prowess and abilities could be used on land, they were deployed as an assault force to secure ports or beach heads. Through time they took on more roles that the army did at the time. They trained harder, pushed their recruits to the limit, then beyond, and turned them into dogs of war. We now had an "special ops" branch of military that could do things the army couldn't or weren't trained to do. Now, the navy and air force are just a transport service provider to the corps to deliver them to foreign soil.
Now on Enterprise, I believe the MACO's might have been a special ops branch of Starfleet, or a Special Ops branch of their own. They were trained to do battle on land, but could also fill the role of armed boarding parties or complement the ship's security. Remember Maj. Hayes trying to teach Starfleet crew members CQB and firearm training? Like the marines, Hayes answered to Lt. Reed and Cpt. Archer since the two were Starfleet naval officers, and the MACO's were basically Starfleet Marines (unofficially)," and had to follow orders from their naval commanders, but the MACO's also had autonomy during their away missions. MACO's in the 22nd cent. are more like the original marines on sailing ships and armadas. Now, in the 24th cent. They are their own branch, or a sub branch of SF Security.
Starfleet is a lot more than that though, as they also handle scientific research and general diplomacy. They are an extension of the government with access to military assets.
Now, yes, technically the Marine Corps is part of our Navy. As far as the MACOs go however, I always got the impression they were completely separate from Starfleet, as if the regular army was disbanded and the USMC and other elite militaries in the world were combined to take its place.
And who's to say the MACOs didn't exist all along in Trek? Sure, we never saw them on screen until Enterprise, but there is a very real need for an elite infantry based branch like that. And I usually think of the ground unit depicted in that one episode of DS9 as more analogous to the Navy Seals. Their presence does not eliminate the possibility of MACOs being elsewhere.
Historically military vessels have had marines as part of their crew compliment, marines were used as ship security and for boarding actions against enemy vessels, they would later be used as seaborne infantry and for small scale commando raids.
The US Marines in WW2 and the British Royal Marines during WW2 and beyond come to mind here, so I'm surprised Starfleet don't have marines on-board ships for planetary landings, raids and ship boarding actions.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
As for the MACOs themselves, all Starfleet officers are trained to varying degrees in combat operations, as is the nature of Starfleet itself, however the MACOs are the elites, think SAS, they get few overt assignments but the ones they do get require their skills, Enterprise for example was given a group of MACOs because the ship's mission was considered crucial to the Federation's goals and should be completed at all costs.
Because Starfleet doesn't operate as a traditional navy does. They avoid conflict whenever possible, taking nonviolent solutions when its an option. They are an extension of the government, rather than a full blown military. Landings and raids aren't even a consideration, and if their only purpose is for boarding operations security can handle it. MACOs are still a vital part of Federation security, but they are not needed on most Starfleet vessels except during a state of war.
I mean Enterprise was the only show to depict MACOs, and none were stationed on board the ship until Archer requested them after the Xindi attack. Clearly it was felt they weren't as needed amid ships as they are today.
As for any ST novel, they aren't officially canon. Even if STO include some part of them into the game (like the Vesta, the Romulan language...). In game, I don't remember seeing the MACO motto at all.
The MACO is a military organization. Yes. Is that some big news ? It was already stated in Ent.
What's next ? Klingon are warlike ? Feds are explorers ?
Starfleet really are wasting a key strategic and tactical asset by not having MACOs permanently attached to a starship, with the state of the galaxy atm having a well trained,drilled and elite fighting force may be very beneficial, the MACOs are trained for specialized operations and are good shock troops if the situations requires in times of war.
Lets compare the ENT MACOs with something let's say the defenders of AR-558
The ENT era MACOs were a precision tool in action where as Starfleet defenders of AR-558 were more like a solid line infantry unit whose job it was to hold ground and that they did well even when decimated through attrition.
You combine those two strengths and you have a very tough fighting force who won't back down from a fight.
Securing a system not only requires having space and air superiority but also being able to quickly land troops to secure the planet in a ground operation, MACO are perfect for the ground operations where starfleet provide the air support
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
STOs lore claims that MACOs were brought back as Starfleet sepcial forces, honoring the Earth based military in name. This is a huge slap in the UFPs face - Starfleet was created to completely substitute all member worlds militaries, identities should be mushed on purpose. Aside from some independent defense forces to police their home system member worlds are completely integrated into Starfleet. Modeling a special forces unit after Earth military does violate the unification principle which exists to ensure member worlds can't and don't want to simply break off and wage war against each other. I would be majorly pissed as another member of the UFP besides humans.
MACOs are a relic prior to the foundation of the UFP. MACOs did not exist afterwards (for the simple reason they were concieved for the show ENT). Combat operations have since TOS been carried out by Starfleet Security personnel. Not "marines", not "soldiers", not "MACO"s - Security Officers. And that's how Starfleet operates. Nothing speaks against specialized equipment (think of the assault on paradise city, Starfleet Security used awesome, foldable ballistic shields and rapid fire weaponry there, in TOS they had grenade launchers) but the attempt to portray a Starfleet force as "US Marines in space" (which Cryptic now does) is ridiculous and also a bit offensive to the cooperative, unificationist idea of Starfleet and Star Trek.
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Not quite. The United States Air Force also handles scientific Research, and Generals and Admirals within the US Military can handle diplomacy in certain matters. However, we don't do first contact, and since we're currently stuck on a planet with a set of already discovered nations within reach of an airline within 8-13 hours, there's no need for military officials to handle diplomacy most of the time.
Starfleet also follows a Uniform Code of Military Justice and is soley responsible for the defense of the Federation and its citizens, and Star Trek VI spells out clearly that Starfleet is Military, it's just like the US Air Force in that it has divisions within it that do things other than fight.
People who think Starfleet isn't military always seem to have the incorrect view that the military is somehow all combat. No, there are lots of jobs within the various Military branches that focus on science, research and development, exploration, testing, diplomacy, engineering, emergency response, medical, assisting foreign nations (providing food, water, etc.) etc. etc. Some of the most major technological developments in human history come from Military R&D (Including the Internet).
That same movie also points out that the Federation does have "Federation Marines", and DS9 mentions federation "Troop Ships". So there is an official ground division, either as a branch of Starfleet similar to the USMC, or as a separate entity similar to the US Army.
The first statement is, I dare to say, simply false. "Marines", either belonging to the UFP or Starfleet have never been mentioned in canon. The second statement is a long shot. A "Troop ship" is simply a function. If there is fighting of course there are ships bringing personnel to partake in combat to the site. Why this indicates any form of different branch or any military nature is beyond me. All combat on-screen has always been performed by Security Officers or other Starfleet Officers that in one particular instance showed to be majorly unprepared for combat in general.
A lot of things Starfleet does is, by their very nature as invluding the UFPs defensive service, in function similiar to militaries of today. The entity of Starfleet, their terminology and the principle it's operates on is, however, fictional and should not be confused with our present day understanding. It's fiction and clearly states it's not supposed to be "the military". That doesn't well with some people, doesn't change the fact it was portrayed as such, though. The more frequent display of combat action sequences int he later shows are also often mistaken for an increase in "military stuffz" later on, something that is also a misconception. Over the whole course of the shows Starfleet doesn't really change much, only the visuals do and some terms used.
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I wasnt trying to Starfleet was not military, but their role is much broader than that. Many of the things they do are things are things government officials would do today. Their level of discipline is also pretty low in most cases (TOS in particular), possibly even lower than that of today's army.
And no military minded individual would disrespect the Marine Corps Service Alpha uniform by calling it a costume, as Picard did in Encounter at Farpoint.
Except that you're forgetting Colonel West, officer in the Federation Starfleet Marines, from Star Trek VI. Infact you're pretty much ignoring all of Star Trek VI, and there are several episodes in DS9 where Starfleet is, again, acknowledge as the Military (it's outright stated at one point in the episode where Sisko is overseeing security on Earth).
And the fact of the matter is, whatever the Federation calls Starfleet for PR reasons doesn't matter, Starfleet is the military and performs the exact same duties as any modern Military, and are soley responsible for the Defense of the Federation. They even follow the UCMJ for crying outloud. You don't get court marshaled from a government job, only military. Whether they want to admit it or not, they are the Federations Military.
As for Picard's anti-military statement, it's a roddenberry Irony considering he is wearing a "costume" of his own, but this is merely a result of Starfleet's downsizing of military operations after the destruction of praxis, which is undone after Wolf 359.
Hast thou not felt ashamed of thy words and deeds
Hast thou not lacked vigor
Hast thou exerted all possible efforts
Hast thou not become slothful
You mean the "Colonel West" whose appearance was basically cut from almost all versions of the movie and those which have him show him to wear a vice admiral's rank insignia? Also, your "Starfleet marines" are not a thing.
You know, this discussion is probably as old as Star Trek itself. In my four plus years on STO and the affiliated forums I have had the same discussion and the same arguments dozens of times so I won't dive in it this time. But it is funny that in such cases there are always people claiming something because there was one single scene that serves their purpose and the rest of continuity, all the movies and shows, the hours of screentime display "people in denial" because of a twelve second scene which can be viewed as a script error easily and was later even removed.
Regarding the rest, it comes down to being "acting military" and being "military" are not the same. I won't fight you on that, starfleet performs these duties. But the mindset behind it is entirely different. Starfleet is more akin to a paramilitary or something like a minuteman militia in that regard. You can claim that the people portrayed in the material are all in denial, lying or using PR terms although the medium does not indicate anything like that and that's fine with me.
Regarding STO you are completely right. Cryptic is pretty clear about the fact that we are mere US army/marines/navy/whatevers in space, complete with indoctrination, itchy trigger fingers and propaganda posters, toasting our academy finals to "shoot to kill" (how about "Ex astris, scientia"? Anyone? No?). But canon Star Trek is still something different.
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I saw VI when it came out in theaters when I was a boy. But every time I've seen it since it had Colonel West in it. I wouldn't have even known to look it up if you hadn't mentioned it. Interesting.
To the OP's stealth argument, I agree with you that Starfleet is a military organization, and that The Undiscovered Country & DS9 really hammered that point in.
That being said, you're wasting your energy arguing with Trekkies about whether or not Starfleet is a military organization.
Some dialog and some of the creative types involvement lean towards it being... Well I'm not really clear as to what Starfleet is if not the Space Department of the Navy. But they feel very strongly that it isn't the Space Navy.
It has military rank including a list for marines ;-)
I know most trekies adhere to the "we are a interplanetary armada for peace and exploration" tag line -- BUT that is one big TRIBBLE gun on my Galaxy-X.
Yup. Look at it this way: What is a military?
How's this for a definition: an organized, legally sanctioned body of people charged with the use of armed force in defense of a government's citizenry and interests.
Guess what: That's Starfleet all over, so no matter what Picard thought of the fact, they are a military.
As for the MACOs? Closest analogy isn't really the Marines (general ground combat seems to be Starfleet Security's job), but rather the Navy SEALs.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The federation itself is largely peaceful and run by politics and diplomacy, but like many "peaceful" governments, you need to be able to defend yourself and do many other things thus why starfleet exists.
On paper they are not a military organisation, In practice they are as a majority of ships they use have the ability to glass and entire planet so frankly they are a military organisation but with diplomatic leanings.
General ground combat is not the Marine Corps' purpose, that's what the Army is for. Marines are meant to be the ones that storm the beach, secure the beach head, and rapidly push forward, all the while laying the ground work for those coming behind them. The Army is meant to be the occupying force. Navy SEALs are a special forces element, and their role includes things like hostage rescue, intel acquisition, and target elimination.
Starfleet Security would be analogous to a combination of the Army and Navy SEALs. MACOs are definetlly an evolution of the Marine Corps.
Except that since Korea, Marines, by far, have spent more effort in general combat actions than securing beach heads and shore-side operations.
way to sum up how terrible this forum community is with one sentence. who effin cares, it's a discussion forum.