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What is max difference in DPS for tank?
ryakidrys
Member Posts: 830 Arc User
Last night, I had the pleasure to be part of a ISA run where I exceeded my previous understanding of maximum difference in DPS from tank to top player. Normally, I run with fleetmates and the highest DPS is often closer to 2 times that of my tank. I know 2 times works as I've even had a fleetmates exclaim that they had trouble getting GDF, something I attributed to have enough aggro that mainly a warp core explosion was the primary damage the other player(s) took damage from. Last night, there were 2 folks with nearly identical DPS at the top, according to CLR. Their DPS was 2.7 times my DPS, with myself running the tank role. I had 3 +th embassy consoles, elite fleet fermion deflector and 9 points in threat control. I used the attract fire skill for about 15 seconds when I found myself out of position once due to the match running faster than I had been ready for.
At the end, the hits in percentage showed at 58%, something I believe is adequate. 1 teammate did blow up at one point, something I'd have preferred did not happen.
What is the maximum difference in DPS from tank to top player you have seen where the tank role was functioning adequately?
At the end, the hits in percentage showed at 58%, something I believe is adequate. 1 teammate did blow up at one point, something I'd have preferred did not happen.
What is the maximum difference in DPS from tank to top player you have seen where the tank role was functioning adequately?
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Recommend you read this thread: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1406941
With continues changes in the game, you got to run HSE to know. HSE the value of surviving/tanking is just as much as valued as DPS.
In ISA, The difference is large between the tank and Top DPS if you base it on plasma doping stats. During the Plasma doping era, Felisean was the Top DPS using a Tac scimitar at 180k+ DPS. The highest tank recorded is @jarvisalfred aka Vel at 79k+ DPS using a scimitar but Eng Toon and very different build from Felisean. However, ISA is not good to know if a tank is good or not since ISA borg NPCS has little punching power.
In HSE plasama doping era, top dps was Ryan at 81K DPS and Vel at 39K DPS.
For now, Vel still holds that record unless someone good enough to take the DPS number from Vel and tank the whole HSE for the group wherein NPCs shred everyone in secs.
However, the most important stat for a tank is how many deaths killed you, killed your group and how many total damage you soaked up. While taking aggro/threat is a good indicator, it is not identified in the logs since NPCs in HSE AoE. Although VEl has ISA video of him taking aggro from PuGs and 75k Channels 60%+ of damage but we know ISA is too easy to tank compared to HSE.
Oh and for the record I did at one time have a pure tank/healer recluse so am knowledgable about tank builds despite most if not all my ships currently being setup as dps. That recluse I mainly used for pvp since as I said pure tanking isn't really necessary for majorty of content, but when pvp basically died I switched even that ship over to a dps configuration.
Although Whatever your saying that you can aggro is true or not, please identify yourself to be recognized.
i cant seem to find your account name in ISA nor HSE table for your to out aggro a 75K DPS dude.
Just want to know because there are a lot of fake "experts" in the STO forums claiming to be experts or giving advice but are really not experts nor are qualified to give advice.
For now, the recognize expert for tanking/threat is @jarvisandalfred aka Vel until such time another player takes that mantle from Vel just like the recognized Torp expert in STO community ingame is Marsh.
First, thanks Paxdawn. I appreciate the compliments, and your assessment of ISA tanking vs HSE tanking is a valid one - ISA is not the toughest queue in the game, and while my Jericho made it through ISA without issues, it did suffer a bit in HSE. My experience, however, was that a ship that could make it through ISA could make it through all of the Advanced and all of the Elites, save occasionally the Dreads at the end of BDE, and obviously HSE. Outside of those two queues (and one of the new tribble ones coming), there's really no threat to a ship that can make it through ISA.
For this, I'd refer people instead to the Hulkbuster. 50%+ shots in in HSE (which is nearly impossible), no deaths. While I tended to use the right ship for the right circumstances (Jericho for most queues, Hulkbuster for ones with survivability challenges), the Hulkbuster did have it's record at 42k, which is still not shabby.
As to the highest relative difference between dps'er and tank, I'm going to have to pull most of the logs from my fed, who's still in MK XII gear and runs romplas, so that's why these numbers may be quite low.
The week DR dropped, I pulled aggro off of Mal Reynolds (who ended the run at 68k) while doing 20k. Not my best run for aggro purposes though. I have another run in a different ship, where I did 13k and pulled from a 55k ship. I have an experimental tank recluse that did 32k (and still needed most of it's gear) and pulled aggro from Jena at 86k.
On a different note, I had a run where I did 16k, and only had 35% of the shots in. Still nearly twice what I should have, and more than anyone else but not nearly enough to consider that 'pulling aggro'. That run, I had a teammate at 78k, so I was facing someone at nearly 5x my dps. Part of that may have been positioning, since it was a very short run, especially compared to what I was used to, but at that point I fault myself for not doing enough dps.
If you just want to know the highest dps run I've ever pulled aggro in, I believe it's Jena's 86k. It possibly might be higher, I just can't currently find that log. At any rate, my experience is that's quite possible to pull threat while doing 1/3 to 1/4th of the dps of the person.
If you're ever in a situation where you're flying with people doing more than 4x your dps, my suggestion is this: Do more dps. I have a very heavily tanked out Sheshar that probably has a ~4x multiplier and averages in the 30-40k range - enough to pull dps off of the current record runs. Since it's very possible to get 3-4x threat multipliers, and 10-20k in fed cruisers with MK XII gear, that puts you in the 30-80k aggro range already with MK XII gear. Simple gear upgrades would move that to at least 15-30k, moving the aggro ceiling up to 45-120k. You're not going to run into the bottom end of that in pugs nearly ever, in fact even in fleets that's rare. The upper limit of that will basically only be found in DPS-Channel speedruns from 50/75k, and at the point you're trying to pull aggro off of the game's record holders, you'll have to be one of the game's better tanks yourself.
I tend to look at some combination of deaths, % damage in, dps in, and hits in.
Hits in, to me, is a very valuable indicator, since it speaks to the frequency you were being shot at. Due to NPC FAW and TS, and me not being perfect, I've only ever had one run with over 90% hits in, but in the 60-80% range seems to make people quite safe.
Deaths is obviously another good metric - though it's not perfect. Obviously, if you die, you messed up, but sometimes people die because they're off fighting the wrong group of people and you can't stop that.
%Damage in isn't a perfect metric, since it's affected by your resistances and theirs (in some runs, my resists are lower than my teammate's, on average, since most of the time they're being shot at they have TSS and A2SIF up, and I don't have 100% uptime on those, while in some runs my teammates have about 0% resists), but it does speak decently to where the damage went.
Dps incoming is a different metric to look at. I tend to look at it as teammate's dps incoming in a run with me vs runs without me. If I can significantly decrease their normal dps incoming, they're clearly surviving better.
3+th consoles, fleet fermion, and 9 in threat control with attract fire can probably manage a 3-4x multiplier. This will vary a bit with positioning.
Can you post or PM me your @handle? I'd love to chat about tank builds sometime.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
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Build questions? Look here!
Yeah guess it would've helped to give my in game handle (@pinkard). Most recently I can usually be found on my sci named Wanda, My tac Phaserbabe, or my engi Layertoy. For the record I never once claimed to be an expert only that I am knowledgeable at building ships whether tanks or dps or whatever. If The torp expert you refer to as Marsh is Marshal then surprise he was the defiant in the run with me and the OP
So the question should be how many defensive things do you need to survive being highest dps...
I mean no disrespect, but I do not agree with the quoted statement in general. As it pertains to dpsloss88, you may be far better than any tank in the game can hold aggro for, but that would be how it pertains to you.
DPS must tank..... only if you do not have a tank minded player with a setup and ship to match that is capable of holding aggro from the highest DPS player in the area. If the team stays together, it seems a tank can work in many cases. If the team must split up, you could use more than 1.
Tanks in STO are like Marines...The few, the proud, tanks.
Because tanks cannot hold aggro...... if jarvisandalfred's previous statement is true, I'm inclined to believe the statement that tanks can't hold aggro isn't completely true. Again, maybe at the highest levels it may be true, but sarcasmdetector and Ryan_STO are considered to be among some of the top players as it pertains to PvE DPS.
How many defensive things..... The number of, type, and strength of, defensive things needed depends heavily on far too many factors that affect things in varying amounts to bother trying to attempt to explain. Practice it, tweak the build, and repeat dozens of times until you have something that works nearly every time, then you'll know how many defensive things you need.
It's completely false, as a matter of fact. My Scimitar has a higher amount of threat generating increasers than my Avenger (3 MK XIV Epic +Th consoles and 109 to threat control vs 2 MK XII +Th consoles and 116.5 to threat control), for a higher net threat modifier. The aforementioned avenger could reliably pull threat from people at over 3x it's over it's dps.
Now, to extrapolate that, my scimitar is at ~40-50k dps, and has (by logic) a threat multiplier of over 3x. Even the low end, and only 3x, is still higher than the current record. While I have not flown in runs with people doing over 100k lately (or ever, to my knowledge), I know for a fact that I could pull aggro from them.
Now, I will say that aggro off of the top players is even rarer than the top players, but that's simple player/skill distribution. A good tank can pull aggro off of a good dps'er without issues.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Thank you folks for your input.