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  • tehbubbalootehbubbaloo Member Posts: 2,003 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    nadiezja wrote: »
    I have to ask, and this isn't just directed at this poster but at everyone complaining about the monetization in STO:

    What, exactly, do you think the game's profit margin is?

    in the corporate world, no profit margin is ever enough. they could be making money hand over fist and still find it necessary to look for pennies under the cushions; downgrading the staff coffee to generic, removing every third light globe, monetising everything in sight, etc.
    thats the result of every financial decision being based on the upcoming quarterly. corps, unlike a privately owned, seem to generally lack the ability to forgo a penny today for a dollar tomorrow.

    patrick, when i spoke of 'the top' i suppose i was referring to cryptic management more so than pwe itself.
  • trillbuffettrillbuffet Member Posts: 861 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Different games are different. One game might thrive on a subscription model. STO definitely did not. If we had stuck with subscription only, STO likely would have shut down by now.

    You can't really blame a model for the failures though. You have several aspects in the industry that were done that are big NO NO's lol. The first one is cash shop as well as a sub fee is what was the start to failure. The second was the company you guys dealt with was known for many decades as a console game company and neither company did their homework before working together which resulted in failure. The way things are going now though its pretty much in same boat because look at pwe games and other cryptic games a lot of them not as old sto and are already dead in the water. The only reason even with f2p why this game hasn't been shut down yet is because of the fact that it has the star trek name on it. Although I wouldn't say its going to get shut down in the next 6 months but the continuing trends like just revamping stuff and making people buy the same things over and over is going to achieve the same result.

    The only thing that will save this game is a new direction of where things are account unlock instead of per character because this game thrives on players who have multiple characters. The other is that and I will give an example the newest winter even was designed on being fun to play. Where as everything since f2p has been just to grind grind grind so that needs to change and more oriented on playing the game and being fun.
  • cidjackcidjack Member Posts: 2,017 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I would say, "ALL!"

    Or way more than it needs to be.

    Some companies just can not settle for an honest wage.

    Show me in any government regulation where a company has to abide by a certain profit margin.
    Armada: Multiplying fleet projects in need of dilithium by 13."
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  • cbob312cbob312 Member Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Tear out the ground combat and put in a proper cover shooter.
  • prierinprierin Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    arnthebard wrote: »
    ACCEPT "FREE" VOLUNTEER HELP FROM THE TECHNICALLY QUALIFIED PLAYER BASE. After all you have volunteer Forum Moderators. While we are at it what would be quite useful would be to have volunteer zone chat moderators especially on ESD. Some people refuse to use common courtesy and need to be called down.

    Open up modding to the playerbase like WoW did.

    Limit the F2P to Commander level. After that they would need to pay for a gold membership or become a lifer.

    FIX THE BUGS there would be no new anything until the bug list got completely and totally handled. Yes there are still bugs from 5 years ago.

    Bring back Tribble testing and veteran rewards rather than rushing broken content on to the holodeck server.

    Unleash the Foundry and give it the same abilities they gave to Neverwinter Nights.

    "NERF THE GRIND" give Universal Marks for Rewards this would help with the queques.

    Open up every exploration cluster and insert "Approved" Foundry Missions.

    Put Veteran Human bridge officers in the C-store.

    Make everything in the game craftable up to MKXIV "EPIC" Including DOFFS!

    Create Romulan/Reman only content and give the Klingons more content [many of the missions would be easy to tweak to faction specific missions]

    Create a Trading Faction that would allow for missions transporting and trading goods and services across the Universe.

    Recycle "Old content" as temporal missions.

    Have the accolades actually count for something like say extra skill points.

    Offer T-6 upgrade to every lock box ship through a C-store module purchase.

    Don't know about anyone else but I, for one, am GLAD you're not in charge.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    You will forever be missed and never forgotten.
  • askrayaskray Member Posts: 3,329 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    You can't really blame a model for the failures though. You have several aspects in the industry that were done that are big NO NO's lol. The first one is cash shop as well as a sub fee is what was the start to failure. The second was the company you guys dealt with was known for many decades as a console game company and neither company did their homework before working together which resulted in failure. The way things are going now though its pretty much in same boat because look at pwe games and other cryptic games a lot of them not as old sto and are already dead in the water. The only reason even with f2p why this game hasn't been shut down yet is because of the fact that it has the star trek name on it. Although I wouldn't say its going to get shut down in the next 6 months but the continuing trends like just revamping stuff and making people buy the same things over and over is going to achieve the same result.

    The only thing that will save this game is a new direction of where things are account unlock instead of per character because this game thrives on players who have multiple characters. The other is that and I will give an example the newest winter even was designed on being fun to play. Where as everything since f2p has been just to grind grind grind so that needs to change and more oriented on playing the game and being fun.
    Actually the model is the failure now. Again almost every MMO out now is F2P or B2P. Even Elder Scrolls which people swore wouldn't go f2p or b2p. The Old Republic? lasted what a yearish then went F2P and that was supposed to be the next AAA mmo that would kill WoW.

    But ya know you can always blame PWE for it because ya know it's an evil corporation :P
    Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care.
    Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
    Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113


  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,102 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    tacofangs wrote: »
    Different games are different. One game might thrive on a subscription model. STO definitely did not. If we had stuck with subscription only, STO likely would have shut down by now.

    Well, considering the state that the game that you formerly worked on (aka Champions Online) is currently in EVEN AFTER going F2P - yet Cryptic still keeps it going and going (in maintenance mode with no real new content updates to speak of); I have a feeling STO would still be up; BUT would not have had the expansions, updates and revamps it got in that time - it would b in perpetual (no pun intended) maintenance mode were it still sub only; but it would have been kept online by CBS t least through the release of the third Bad Robot Star Trek film, and/or the Star Trek 50th Anniversary date (which CBS I going to market the HELL out of; and would see STO as a marketing cost, were it not very profitable by remining sub only.)
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I would say, "ALL!"

    Or way more than it needs to be.

    Some companies just can not settle for an honest wage.

    And some people just want everything for nothing... Truth is, having been watching this thread for a while, virtually no one here would have the slightest inkling about how to run a successful MMO...

    Myself included, which is why I've not bothered to comment on what I'd do differently...
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Let me put it this way. In a recent podcast Geko said the monetizing was necessary 'to keep the lights on.' I submit to you the following: .... the lights were *already* staying on, prior to DR. Aka, all the insane Upgrade cost that came with DR is hence pure profit.

    Completely baseless speculation... We have no idea what Cryptic's financial situation is, or has been - then there's the very fact that companies do not exist 'just to keep the lights on'...

    I could argue that the recent layoffs are a sign their profits are not as strong as the typical 'corporate confidence' statements you'd normally hear would suggest - Geko suggesting they 'have to keep the lights on' could even have been a rather candid remark insinuating their profits are not that good after all...

    Companies have investors and the like who demand that a business turn a profit, simply 'keeping the lights on' is hardly going to be a sufficient return on their investment to someone how has a financial interest in a company...

    And no, the players are NOT investors... Spending money on a service, and buying a percentage of the service being provided, are distinctly different...


    Insane upgrade costs are all entirely relative... Further more, they are all entirely optional...

    Once again, at no point, has anyone at Cryptic forced a single player to purchase a new ship or upgrade a single piece or equipment...

    To do so has always been a decision made by the players...


    This notion that you MUST purchase the latest shiney, or that you MUST upgrade all your gear is capitalistic mentality that demands you MUST by that brand new television... That you MUST buy that brand new IPhone... That you MUST buy that new car...

    Cryptic are a business, they exist to make money... We as consumers MAKE THE DECISION TO GIVE THEM OUR MONEY - some people just simply cannot accept that they are responsible for their own financial decisions as it clears their conscious to blame the 'money-grubbing companies' who willingly take it from them...

    As always, if people feel Cryptic are ripping them off, just stop giving them money - the decision is yours, not Cryptic's...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

    not_funny_Q_shadows_small.jpg
  • grazyc2#7847 grazyc2 Member Posts: 1,988 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    askray wrote: »
    Limiting F2P works for Blizzard. If you haven't noticed, almost every major mmo out there atm is either B2P or F2P. The market isn't going to allow for a subscription based fee anymore. That ship has sailed.

    "Fix the bugs" is not as simple as people think it is. And no, not adding anything new until all bugs in an mmo are fixed means we would never see new content. Because there are ALWAYS bugs.

    Tribble testing with rewards actually didn't garnish as much as you think it did. Most people logged in for the specified time, then logged out. Again, broken content isn't new and comes down to not a lot of people test. And yes, I'm aware of the bugs that still get released even when tested.

    NWN? o_O You mean Neverwinter right? In that case yes agreed.

    Won't touch the grind subject and I'm confused about opening up clusters especially with the whole "no more sector space walls" concept.

    Crafting doffs is kinda.. bizzare. I don't think the transporter works that way :P

    A "tweak" to make it fit for one faction isn't exactly as simple as it sounds. Not to mention they've done this and gotten mixed reviews.

    Trading faction has been pushed for awhile, never heard anything.

    Old content - meh sure why not.

    Accolades are just accolades. If they go for skill points I'll hit 60 with just logging in :P

    T-6 upgrade for every lockbox ship for free is a nice idea.

    Agree with you very well explained, I do mods myself so I know how iritating coding can be tweak this and sudenly you ruin something else or even crash stuff.
    Too bad people think lite over programing an MMO, I have seen it and Im very inpressed by what MMO Devs do, and I thought modding was dificult ....
    No besides the endless complaining and angry people they have to face far more challenge then Disney or Blizzard. Cryptic have to face Trek Fans worst kind of smart people there is....
    A the lock box thing however is there income I don't think they are going to change that also the split sets that you have to aquuire part ingame and part loby store is an income they will not change that as long it makes money for them.
    The Crafting thing is what most players wanted but to bad they forgot those who never asked to craft because most people wanted it you have to do this or spend some dollars to upgrade your stuff...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Coffee: the finest organic suspension ever devised. It's got me through the worst of the last three years. I beat the Borg with it."
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    askray wrote: »
    "Fix the bugs" is not as simple as people think it is. And no, not adding anything new until all bugs in an mmo are fixed means we would never see new content. Because there are ALWAYS bugs.


    That's only because you take the argument to the extreme. :)

    Devs could be likened to school-going kids, needing to turn in their homework. With the players as the teachers. :D Now, when I look at some of the work they delivered, I'd say about 75% I would immediately send back for being exceedingly buggy, and ask them to do their homework properly. Aka, if these were class projects they'd be handing in, I'd fail them on the majority of those.

    What this analogy means, is that I would want the Devs to only turn in work they extensively tested; not bug-free, mind you, but work that shows they put considerable effort into getting right. And not, say, O, leave Suppression Barrage broken (it was *giving* a 100% acc bonus to foe, instead of taking it). until the very days it's also already getting nerfed.

    Like I said, make an effort; aka, show the customer that you care (about something else than just selling the next shiny).
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • askrayaskray Member Posts: 3,329 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    That's only because you take the argument to the extreme. :)

    Devs could be likened to school-going kids, needing to turn in their homework. With the players as the teachers. :D Now, when I look at some of the work they delivered, I'd say about 75% I would immediately send back for being exceedingly buggy, and ask them to do their homework properly. Aka, if these were class projects they'd be handing in, I'd fail them on the majority of those.

    What this analogy means, is that I would want the Devs to only turn in work they extensively tested; not bug-free, mind you, but work that shows they put considerable effort into getting right. And not, say, O, leave Suppression Barrage broken (it was *giving* a 100% acc bonus to foe, instead of taking it). until the very days it's also already getting nerfed.

    Like I said, make an effort; aka, show the customer that you care (about something else than just selling the next shiny).

    That's the problem. They do QA on things and obviously it's possible to miss things. And also some things can only be found in a major use environment. It happens in every game. Not to mention there is a time constraint, budgeting factors and so on. Sure, there are some serious DERP bugs that get by, like the suppression barrage hehe, But if they took the time a lot of people think they need to make something 80% bug free guaranteed we'd get no new content for at least a year at a time.

    And that reason is it's down to near impossible to guess what will happen in a live setting. They are obviously taking some effort to get things right, or we'd have a game that's totally unplayable.
    Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care.
    Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
    Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113


  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    imruined wrote: »
    Completely baseless speculation... We have no idea what Cryptic's financial situation is, or has been

    Nor do we need to know. But my argument was that we've just celebrated 5 years of STO. In all those years, the light were on just fine. Hence, however manifold they increased their profits after DR, it's, per definition, pure profit (if it weren't, they had been running STO at a loss the last few years). That is not 'Completely baseless speculation,' but simple, irrefutable logic.

    Now, what they're doing with those profits is another matter. I suspect they put much of it back into the game too (paying voice actors, for one). But there's no way of telling, of course, without them actually telling us.
    - then there's the very fact that companies do not exist 'just to keep the lights on'...

    And then there's settling for an honest wage, and fleecing people for every penny they got.
    I could argue that the recent layoffs are a sign their profits are not as strong as the typical 'corporate confidence' statements you'd normally hear would suggest - Geko suggesting they 'have to keep the lights on' could even have been a rather candid remark insinuating their profits are not that good after all...

    I believe Geko also hinted, in that podcast, to having to meet certain quota (from their Chinese Overlords). We simply don't know, from those statements alone, why. All I can say, is that either everything after DR has been pure profit, or STO was doing badly before (and they needed to cover financial holes). My money -- pun intended -- is on the former. Especially since various EP's have told us many times they're doing very well!
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    askray wrote: »
    That's the problem. They do QA on things and obviously it's possible to miss things. And also some things can only be found in a major use environment. It happens in every game. Not to mention there is a time constraint, budgeting factors and so on. Sure, there are some serious DERP bugs that get by, like the suppression barrage hehe, But if they took the time a lot of people think they need to make something 80% bug free guaranteed we'd get no new content for at least a year at a time.

    And that reason is it's down to near impossible to guess what will happen in a live setting. They are obviously taking some effort to get things right, or we'd have a game that's totally unplayable.
    Or, to quote a pic I've seen around...

    99 little bugs in the code,
    99 little bugs,
    Take one down, patch it around -
    127 little bugs in the code!
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    askray wrote: »
    That's the problem. They do QA on things and obviously it's possible to miss things. And also some things can only be found in a major use environment. It happens in every game. Not to mention there is a time constraint, budgeting factors and so on. Sure, there are some serious DERP bugs that get by, like the suppression barrage hehe, But if they took the time a lot of people think they need to make something 80% bug free guaranteed we'd get no new content for at least a year at a time.

    And that reason is it's down to near impossible to guess what will happen in a live setting. They are obviously taking some effort to get things right, or we'd have a game that's totally unplayable.


    I recall a podcast in which DStahl once said they simply don't have enough resources to do proper Q&A. That has the ring of truth to it (although he probably regretted ever having said so :P)

    As others have said in this thread, they're also under constant pressure (from the market alone) to release new stuff on a very regular basis, or perish. That doesn't exactly help, either.

    All-in-all, I think they're actually getting better with bug-fixes (who said that?!). No, seriously, I saw they made a consorted effort to get the loadouts fixed, and assorted other (smaller) things too. So, I can quite understand their predicament.

    Where it gets annoying for me, is where they purposely release broken/unfinished stuff, simply because the new shiny needs to be rushed out. Cuz then you know, that, by the time they get to fixing it, yet another new thing will have taken priority, and things will remain broken for a very long time.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Nor do we need to know. But my argument was that we've just celebrated 5 years of STO. In all those years, the light were on just fine. Hence, however manifold they increased their profits after DR, it's, per definition, pure profit (if it weren't, they had been running STO at a loss the last few years). That is not 'Completely baseless speculation,' but simple, irrefutable logic.

    No, still complete baselss speculation... Anecdotal at best, but again, there is just as much anecdotal evidence that Cryptic's profits are not as good as people seem to believe...
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Now, what they're doing with those profits is another matter. I suspect they put much of it back into the game too (paying voice actors, for one). But there's no way of telling, of course, without them actually telling us.

    If the money is being invested back into the game, it's not profit... You're also forgetting operational costs, creditors and investor dividends...
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    And then there's settling for an honest wage, and fleecing people for every penny they got.

    Tell that to the company's investors and creditors...

    Once again, they are only 'fleecing people' when those people allow themselves to be fleeced.. Or should I say perceive themselves as being 'fleeced'...

    Being 'fleeced' is also a relative term and based purely on what people perceive as reasonable and unreasonable costs...
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    I believe Geko also hinted, in that podcast, to having to meet certain quota (from their Chinese Overlords). We simply don't know, from those statements alone, why.

    Either you're intentionally playing ignorant, or you simply have no idea how business operates... A subsidiary company will inevitably have performance targets - profitability inevitably being one - which their parent company will mandate they meet...

    A subsidiary company is much like an employee in this regard... A parent company will set performance indicators for their subsidiary exactly how a manager sets performance indicators for an employee...
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    All I can say, is that either everything after DR has been pure profit, or STO was doing badly before (and they needed to cover financial holes). My money -- pun intended -- is on the former. Especially since various EP's have told us many times they're doing very well!

    Again, mere speculation, even outright presumption now...

    Suggesting that everything after DR was 'pure profit' is again just plain ignorance, intended or otherwise...

    Income from DR would have been plowed back into development of further content, operational expenses, paying creditors and paying out dividends to investors...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

    not_funny_Q_shadows_small.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    imruined wrote: »
    If the money is being invested back into the game, it's not profit...

    No, it's profit first, that they then, later on, may decide to pour back into the game or not.
    You're also forgetting operational costs, creditors and investor dividends...

    All covered by the 'The lights were already on, prior to DR' paradigm. :)
    Once again, they are only 'fleecing people' when those people allow themselves to be fleeced.. Or should I say perceive themselves as being 'fleeced'...

    Being 'fleeced' is also a relative term and based purely on what people perceive as reasonable and unreasonable costs...

    Yet cost, when compared to itself (at earlier stages in time), is absolute. And the cost of getting endgame gear, post-DR, has simply risen astronomically with DR (ceteris paribus).
    Either you're intentionally playing ignorant, or you simply have no idea how business operates... A subsidiary company will inevitably have performance targets - profitability inevitably being one - which their parent company will mandate they meet...

    And yet you fail to acknowledge the simple fact that neither you, nor I, know why those quota were set, as I said. Could be they were running a loss. Could be PWE simply wants even more profit. Don't even pretend to know which is which. Even the latest lay-offs hardly say anything conclusive about the state of STO. The only concrete thing I went on, is the word of various EP's, saying Cryptic is doing very well. Beyond that, who knows.
    Income from DR would have been plowed back into development of further content, operational expenses, paying creditors and paying out dividends to investors...

    Semantics again. Profit is profit, regardless of what they decide to do with it, later on.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    No, it's profit first, that they then, later on, may decide to pour back into the game or not.

    There will always be a portion of the company's budget for content development...
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    All covered by the 'The lights were already on, prior to DR' paradigm. :)

    Again, keeping the lights on does not indicate any level of profitability...
    meimeitoo wrote: »

    Yet cost, when compared to itself (at earlier stages in time), is absolute. And the cost of getting endgame gear, post-DR, has simply risen astronomically with DR (ceteris paribus).

    What cost? There has been nothing which has thus far forced me to spend real money upgrading anything what so ever... There is a dilithium investment, yes, but this in no way translates to financial expense as dilithium has no financial value...

    The upgrade system is entirely optional, and does not mandate real monetary investment...
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    And yet you fail to acknowledge the simple fact that neither you, nor I, know why those quota were set, as I said. Could be they were running a loss. Could be PWE simply wants even more profit. Don't even pretend to know which is which. Even the latest lay-offs hardly say anything conclusive about the state of STO. The only concrete thing I went on, is the word of various EP's, saying Cryptic is doing very well. Beyond that, who knows.

    I have failed to acknowledge nothing here - the entire basis of my statements have been that everything you have said about Cryptic's profits are pure speculation, even presumption... I am merely refusing to accept the victim mentality that you are trying to push in your insistence to paint Cryptic is somehow trying to steal money from STO's player base...

    You however insist on claiming that Cryptic are apparently making mega-profits off DR and 'fleecing' players, without supplying a single shred of evidence that truely demonstrates Cryptic are in some way forcing players to spend money in order to play...

    What evidence you've put forward that Cryptic are even generating profit is purely anecdotal and choose to just disregard company layoffs as being unrelated to profitability... You apparently want it both ways...
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Semantics again. Profit is profit, regardless of what they decide to do with it, later on.

    No, you are referring to revenue... Profit is what is left after all business costs and expenditure has been covered...

    So no, I have not been arguing semantics, I have been making the very specific point regarding the difference between revenue (which is what you are talking about) and profit (which is a term you insist on mistakenly using)...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

    not_funny_Q_shadows_small.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    nabreeki wrote: »
    Valiant effort, but you are never going to burst the protective cocoon of victimhood that these players have encased themselves in. Many have tried, none have succeeded. Indeed, we know that absolutely no one is forcing us to spend any money on this game whatsoever, but players are going to huff and puff and buy zen anyway because they somehow believe PWE is engaged in psychological warfare for their hard-earned (SSI benefits) money.


    Valiant effort, but utter bullocks. :)

    You and imruined are like people going to a bakery, noticing prices have gone up tenfold, and then ranting at the customers for 'Wanting it all now!!' And that they don't really need to buy anything! And all this other faux 'taking personal responsibilty' TRIBBLE.

    I hope neither of you ever pursues a career in Economics! Allow me to introduce a very basic concept to you, the ceteris paribus condition. It means, changing one condition, whilst keeping the rest the same. In this case, the cost of getting endgame gear. If you now, post-DR, want the same amount of endgame gear, it's gonna cost you tenfold compared to what it cost you prior to DR (and that is being generous). And, no, you silly people, "Then just don't buy anything!! Nobody makes you!!" refutes nothing. LOL.
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  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Valiant effort, but utter bullocks. :)

    You and imruined are like people going to a bakery, noticing prices have gone up tenfold, and then ranting at the customers for 'Wanting it all now!!' And that they don't really need to buy anything! And all this other faux 'taking personal responsibilty' TRIBBLE.

    I hope neither of you ever pursues a career in Economics!

    Well, this is where I say you are flat out wrong...

    I'd walk into the bakery, see the prices and walk right back out and go to the more reasonably priced bakery around the corner...

    What's actually happened here however is that the bakery have introduced a new product line, very similar to their old lines, but of higher quality for a higher price and I ahve the OPTION to purchase the new line of products...

    Nothing is stopping me purchasing their older line of products, as they're still available, I do however have the choice to spend the extra money to buy the newer lines... It's MY CHOICE which way I go...

    Until Cryptic force players to buy T6 CStore ships, or make it 100% mandatory to upgrade weapons to Mk XIV gold quality, they are not fleecing anyone of anything... Cryptic are presenting options, but the mentality of the players, indoctrinated by capitalist notions of needing the latest and greatest of everything that is creating this view that people MUST spend money...

    You insist on playing the victim as it suits you, Cryptic are not making you one...
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Allow me to introduce a very basic concept to you, the ceteris paribus condition. It means, changing one condition, whilst keeping the rest the same. In this case, the cost of getting endgame gear. If you now, post-DR, want the same amount of endgame gear, it's gonna cost you tenfold compared to what it cost you prior to DR (and that is being generous). And, no, you silly people, "Then just don't buy anything!! Nobody makes you!!" refutes nothing. LOL.

    And this is just flatout fallacy... Pre DR items cost the same as what they did before DR... IF you want the best of everything, you can choose to upgrade... Nothing requires that you do and the content in-game is all entirely playable with pre-DR gear...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

    not_funny_Q_shadows_small.jpg
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    imruined wrote: »
    Well, this is where I say you are flat out wrong...

    I'd walk into the bakery, see the prices and walk right back out and go to the more reasonably priced bakery around the corner....

    Yeah, except there is no other company offering a Star Trek based game. If only!

    Also, people have invested time and effort into this game, and poured in a wee amount of money too. They don't just wanna leave that behind. So, in the absence of another Star Trek game to play, all ppl can really do is tell their 'bakery' that they don't like the new prices. Some there be who will simply stop playing altogather, or (like me) abandon their alts. Either way, restlessness ensues.

    So, concrete, for me it means I either call it quits, or gradually upgrade some, but voice the fact that I don't like prices having gone up tenfold.
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  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Yeah, except there is no other company offering a Star Trek based game. If only!

    Also, people have invested time and effort into this game, and poured in a wee amount of money too. They don't just wanna leave that behind. So, in the absence of another Star Trek game to play, all ppl can really do is tell their 'bakery' that they don't like the new prices. Some there be who will simply stop playing altogather, or (like me) abandon their alts. Either way, restlessness ensues.

    So, concrete, for me it means I either call it quits, or gradually upgrade some, but voice the fact that I don't like prices having gone up tenfold.

    Which boils down to the rest of my post... Which you so conveniently omitted from the quoted text...
    imruined wrote: »
    What's actually happened here however is that the bakery have introduced a new product line, very similar to their old lines, but of higher quality for a higher price and I ahve the OPTION to purchase the new line of products...

    Nothing is stopping me purchasing their older line of products, as they're still available, I do however have the choice to spend the extra money to buy the newer lines... It's MY CHOICE which way I go...

    Until Cryptic force players to buy T6 CStore ships, or make it 100% mandatory to upgrade weapons to Mk XIV gold quality, they are not fleecing anyone of anything... Cryptic are presenting options, but the mentality of the players, indoctrinated by capitalist notions of needing the latest and greatest of everything that is creating this view that people MUST spend money...

    You insist on playing the victim as it suits you, Cryptic are not making you one...

    And this is just flatout fallacy... Pre DR items cost the same as what they did before DR... IF you want the best of everything, you can choose to upgrade... Nothing requires that you do and the content in-game is all entirely playable with pre-DR gear...

    There is nothing stopping people using only Mk XII and Mk XIII gear... There is nothing which mandates that you MUST have Mk XIV gold quality gear on every character you own... Mk XIV gear is not even required to complete all current content...

    It is the players who choose to do this, and then cry foul, playing the victim because they then see some new shiney which they absolutely MUST have - this need exists only in their own minds however...

    Arguing 'but it's Star Trek!' is pointless... So what... I'm a huge Warhammer 40k fan, but I won't be playing Eternal Crusade as I'm not keen on PVP, which is about 90% of the game... Am I disappointed, yes, but if I'm not going to enjoy it, what's the point of putting myself through something I won't enjoy, simply because I get to make believe that I'm a Space Wolf?

    If people choose to play STO simply because it's a Star Trek game, while under the belief Cryptic are ripping them off, then I say more fool them...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

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  • jarvisandalfredjarvisandalfred Member Posts: 1,549 Bug Hunter
    edited March 2015
    I hate it when people say you're not owed anything.

    **** that.

    I paid (directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter) some good money into this game, and I'm owed things as a result.

    Specifically, here's what:

    The Oddy Sci that I paid 2500 zen for - I'm owed the ability to use a T5 Oddy Sci on all my fed characters.

    The Scimitar 3-pack that I (foolishly) paid 5000 zen for - I'm owed the ability to use any or all 3 of those on my Romulan Characters.

    I have the Delta Pack. I'm owed the ability to claim those doffs and boffs on all my toons, the ability to space barbie my characters with the intel uniforms, and the ability to claim those ships on their respective factions' characters.

    No, seriously, I'm owed that, since that's what I paid for. I mean, I'm getting that, and I have no doubt that I'll continue to get that, I just wanted to point out that we are in fact owed some things. And to point what, exactly, that is. :P
    SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci

    SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci

    Tacs are overrated.

    Game's best wiki

    Build questions? Look here!
  • frtoasterfrtoaster Member Posts: 3,352 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    askray wrote: »
    No I agree that there are old, outstanding bugs but a lot of them are trivial or so complex it's hard to track down

    Many bugs fall into neither category, yet remain unfixed for months or even years. Here are a few off the top of my head.

    Tray overlay malfunctioning in shooter mode
    Expose chance of Nanoprobe Infestation halved from 10% to 5%
    Slipstream reduction for Omega engines calculated incorrectly
    Salvage Dispute removed from the game?

    Some of these bugs date back to Legacy of Romulus. Adjudicatorhawk said he would forward the last bug to QA. Note that adjudicatorhawk doesn't even work for Cryptic anymore. That's how old some of these bugs are.

    Of course, there are many more "trivial" bugs, such as typos and overlapping UI elements. But these bugs shouldn't be ignored. Alone, each of them is minor, but taken together, they make the product look shoddy. Geko once dismissed complaints about the doff UI, saying that the complaints were about an earlier version on Tribble that wasn't finished. Well, the doff UI still looks unfinished to me. As far as I know, the following bugs have yet to be fixed:

    Missing doff portraits in "Assignment Log", "In Progress", and "Assignment Details"
    Assignment outcome overlaps with text "Result:"
    CXP font size too small in "Overview" tab of doff window
    Mouse wheel switches from horizontal to vertical scrolling in doff window
    Doff selection list displays wrong colors for specializations
    Truncation and overlap issues in "Roster" tab of doff window
    Truncated filter labels in "Request More Duty Officers"
    New assignments display as completed assignments
    CXP font size too small in "Commendations" tab

    The doff UI does not look like a finished product to me. It looks like a project that someone abandoned to work on something else.
    askray wrote: »
    (for example the boff seating fun hopping). I've never had that problem on either of my accounts *shrugs*

    How many times do you change maps per day? I would say that I change maps at least 10 times per day, and I see the bug on average once per day. When I was playing Crystalline Cataclysm every day on all my toons, I saw the bug more often.
    askray wrote: »
    but I have had the camera zooming thing. So yah, those bugs can be annoying but at the very least there are ways around them.

    If they do not fix the problems with camera zoom currently on Tribble before the sector revamp goes live, then there will be even more cases to work around. And there's currently no way to work around the low maximum camera distance in sector space. See the thread below.

    Technical details regarding problems with zoom
    askray wrote: »
    They do QA on things and obviously it's possible to miss things. And also some things can only be found in a major use environment.

    Very few bugs I see are things that could only be reproduced on a live environment. Many bugs that players report on Tribble go live to Holodeck. Even after the bugs go live to Holodeck, they remain unfixed for a long time.
    Waiting for a programmer ...
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  • frtoasterfrtoaster Member Posts: 3,352 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I paid (directly or indirectly, it doesn't matter) some good money into this game, and I'm owed things as a result.

    Regarding this point, does anyone still have broken KDF costume slots? Does anyone who bought extra loadouts want a refund? Also, shouldn't people who bought a rename token get a refund, since it changes the name in some places and not others, and Cryptic shows no sign of fixing the bug?
    Waiting for a programmer ...
    qVpg1km.png
  • aelfwin1aelfwin1 Member Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    imruined wrote: »
    What's actually happened here however is that the bakery have introduced a new product line, very similar to their old lines, but of higher quality for a higher price and I ahve the OPTION to purchase the new line of products...

    Are you denying that the HP were increased with the introduction of DR?
    Are you denying that the old Elite is not the new Advanced?
    Are you claiming that STF's are not more difficult to play due to players being squeezed between timers and (newly introduced HP) ?

    And finally , do you deny that the "option" to upgrade was introduced to confront the above changes?

    the content in-game is all entirely playable with pre-DR gear...

    That is your opinion , and you're welcome to it .
    As this game has seen the jump from Mk X to Mk XI to Mk XII to Mk XIV -- allow me to suggest that you implement your opinion and go back to "enjoying" the game with Mk X gear .




    ... after all, nothing has changed in 5 years so it's playable with pre-DR gear ...
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Nor do we need to know. But my argument was that we've just celebrated 5 years of STO. In all those years, the light were on just fine. Hence, however manifold they increased their profits after DR, it's, per definition, pure profit (if it weren't, they had been running STO at a loss the last few years). That is not 'Completely baseless speculation,' but simple, irrefutable logic.
    The lights were turned on because they monetized aspects in the game.

    Fleets were a huge Dilithium sink. Tier 5 ships sold be it C-Store, Fleet Credits, Lockboxes or Promos. People needed to get Mark XII Purples. All of this is a directly or indirectly a source of Zen and thus Dollars for Cryptic/PWE.

    But now lots of Fleets are "done". Lots of people have several maxed out endgame Tier 5 ships, the canon ships are pretty much all covered at T5, and they have lots of Mark XII gear.

    And so, it's time for a level cap increase. Tier 6 and Tier 5 Upgrade > Tier 5. Mark XIV Epic > Mark XII Purple. Stuff that people need to invest in.

    And that may keep the lights on for another year, or two, or three, or four, or maybe even five - and then it's time for another level cap increase.


    If the majority of the player population has nothing to grind for and new Zen content isn't really offering something that's better or different from what they already got, it's time for a level cap increase (or more importantly, gear cap and ship tier increase). And that cap must be non-trivial to reach.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • imruinedimruined Member Posts: 1,457 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    Are you denying that the HP were increased with the introduction of DR?
    Are you denying that the old Elite is not the new Advanced?
    Are you claiming that STF's are not more difficult to play due to players being squeezed between timers and (newly introduced HP) ?

    Are you suggesting that the old pre-DR Elite were not a total face-roll, and the changes made added little more than a modicum of difficulty to content that should have always been a challenge?

    Please demonstrate how you are absolutely, 100% required to fly a T6 ship with all gold Mk XIV equipment to complete the current content, like so many of those with a victim complex around here suggest, if you're going to just throw up your typical straw man arguments otherwise...

    It's well known that Advanced difficulty can be done quite comfortably (even easily if you actually have a clue) with a T5 ship and Mk XII gear - in other words, pre-DR equipment...

    Having top gear in Elite would go a long way, but still not 100% required if you're paying attention and know what you're doing...
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    And finally , do you deny that the "option" to upgrade was introduced to confront the above changes?

    Do you have any evidence that it was? No? So another straw man argument
    on your behalf without a shred of evidence to support the assertion that the upgrade system was introduced directly to counter the 3 tier STF dificulty...
    aelfwin1 wrote: »
    That is your opinion , and you're welcome to it .
    As this game has seen the jump from Mk X to Mk XI to Mk XII to Mk XIV -- allow me to suggest that you implement your opinion and go back to "enjoying" the game with Mk X gear

    ... after all, nothing has changed in 5 years so it's playable with pre-DR gear ...

    I've been playing STO long enough to see the transition from Mk X to Mk XII...

    The difference between Mk X and Mk XII was (and still is) so insignificant, it was not unusual for people to opt for Mk X items over Mk XII, as the difference was barely a 15% stat difference, at a significant reduction in overall cost...

    As you normally do, you've ignored everything and just thrown up a bunch of empty and erroneous straw man arguments..

    So, here's a suggestion, drop the straw man arguments, and please demonstrate where Mk XIV is absolutely 100% mandatory to complete the current content, if you're going to dismiss me so blithely...
    The entitlement is strong in these forums...

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