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Yesterday's Enterprise
deaftravis05
Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
This bothers me greatly. It's a good story...
but how, after being broken by Praxis... did the Klingons not only recover, but bring the Federation to its knees? I'm sorry, but the Federation was far larger and had better tech, better resources, better everything...
still, how did the Klingons bring the Federation to its knees?
That's the thing I don't like about the Star Trek writers... they never really think "gee, this makes a great story, but does it make sense?"
Honestly, I could had done a better plot...
"The war has dragged on and the Klingons refuse peace. Many lives have been lost and the Federation Council feels we have no other choice. We must destroy the Klingon Homeworld to end this war. Like the Americans faced a choice with Japan in 1945, so too must the Federation face a similar choice. Invasion of the core Klingon worlds... worlds we cannot occupy... worlds we must lay waste to."
Garratt would be horrified with what Starfleet has become and would return to her timeline and take her death to save billions and ensure a peace.
but how, after being broken by Praxis... did the Klingons not only recover, but bring the Federation to its knees? I'm sorry, but the Federation was far larger and had better tech, better resources, better everything...
still, how did the Klingons bring the Federation to its knees?
That's the thing I don't like about the Star Trek writers... they never really think "gee, this makes a great story, but does it make sense?"
Honestly, I could had done a better plot...
"The war has dragged on and the Klingons refuse peace. Many lives have been lost and the Federation Council feels we have no other choice. We must destroy the Klingon Homeworld to end this war. Like the Americans faced a choice with Japan in 1945, so too must the Federation face a similar choice. Invasion of the core Klingon worlds... worlds we cannot occupy... worlds we must lay waste to."
Garratt would be horrified with what Starfleet has become and would return to her timeline and take her death to save billions and ensure a peace.
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The praxis event in trek timeline happened a long time ago i would think the klingons have long since recovered from it.
Think about this the federation was allies with the empire for a long time and i would think the federation played part in the klingons recovery from the praxis event.
and meanwhile the klingons were building up thier arsenal training warriors like they always do and the federation was well not doing that.
so yes you look at preperation and by all means the klingons should have the federation at its knees tbh if this was a Real life scenario the federation wouldve been defeated in a short period.
the first part of war is the preperation for battle and the klingons always keep themselves prepared for war.
it was their main source of dilthium. Star Trek 6 explains it.
Correct and true but remember there are other sources of dilithium they couldve found and as i mentioned the federation was thier ally so i expect they aided in helping the klingons find more dilithioum rich deposits.
Another soirce of dilithium they had was Rura Penthe.
....What?
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Romulus#Historical
The first reboot movie had Romulus destroyed, not Nemesis.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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That being said, though, bringing an entire interstellar empire to the point of collapse by removing one moon is just ludicrous.
A lot of things seem to be bothering you of late. :rolleyes:
Yeah, Trek has never really properly addressed how an empire of one species (even if they are super warriors and mature to adulthood faster than other species) can potentially overwhelm a rival power of over 50 species. Mathematically, it doesn't seem to work out, and that's not even counting the times when Klingons fought more than one enemy at once. (DS9 for example, had them briefly taking on the Feds, Cardies, and Dominion at the same time.)
Say what you will of STO, but by creating an Empire of multiple species, they actually strengthen the argument that the Klingon Empire can weather a war with the Federation.
-Upping production at existing mines
-Searching for new sources
-Surveying, excavating, and determining whether or not the new locations are suitable/worth the effort
-Building new mining and refinement facilities
-Getting to the point where they can actually begin transporting their new stock across whatever distances
I could probably go on. All this takes time and resources. Ship building efforts may have to be curtailed. And whatever damage around and on Qo'nos would also have to be dealt with. This had to have caused internal strife. How many houses would see this as an opportunity for a power grab?
It wouldn't be much of a stretch for some upstart to get in front of a crowd and say, "This catastrophe has brought the Empire to its knees!", and many would buy into it regardless of the level of accuracy behind the statement. They're angry. They're concerned over their security. They want action.
In short, a mix of short term inconveniences mixed with emotion and rhetoric fueling the drama behind the Praxis incident.
As for the issue with the Klingons defeating the Federation, I think that would bring into question what an interstellar conflict would actually look like. Plus they didn't specify the details behind why the Federation government was considering surrender. I suspect that the Klingons were simply better and more experienced at waging this kind of war than the Federation, which could trump size and tech.
I just don't see how they'd bring Humans, Vulcans and Andorians to their knees. The Klingons were slow in tech development...
The Federation would had numbered in a trillion people at the very least... more than enough to provide raw numbers, raw materials and raw technology to combat the Klingons. Take World War Two for a minute.
The Germans were better soldiers, better trained and more warlike than the British Commonwealth. Yes, the British took a beating in World War Two... but held on and eventually turned the tides of war because they had more people, more raw materials, more manufacturing. Same as Russia. 1941, 1942 saw many massive Axis victories and you'd think it's all over. But '42 saw critical allied victories because the enemy overextended themselves and were not able to replace those well trained troops quickly.
It took the Allies a year and a half to build up their forces enough to eventually take the offence and when they did, the Axis just fell back, blow after blow. They had ruled over 1/3 of the planet at the height of their power... 1/3! and within a year, it was reduced.
The thing you're forgetting about Praxis explosion is that it was polluting the O-zone layer of Qo'noS itself, on top of being their key energy production facility. The planet was in danger of dying, unless it diverted military power to saving the planet... but, in order to do that, they needed to have peace with the Federation.
A poor comparison to organizations spanning star systems. And though historically your not far
off (I assume more people, materials, Mnfg. refers to the Allies, not just the UK), You've ignored
the many strategic blunders commited by the Axis during the war. Enough of these can bring
down any organization, even the Federation.
BCW.
Yesterday's Enterprise was written well before Undiscovered Country, in fact it was written by a scratch team during a writer's strike if I recall correctly.
The events of one have nothing to do with the other -- in fact the two writing teams never met at all. The fact that we get something resembling a coherent meta-plot is a nice side-effect, not the intended result. Contrary to what some believe there is no over-arching meta-plot, no clear direction or franchise bible outlining how things fit together and detailing when things should be released and in what order. What actually happens is someone says "Hey remember when this happened? Maybe we could expand on that a little bit."
Second, we don't know what else is going on in that universe. Did the Federation fight a war with the Cardassians? Perhaps the Cardassians allied with the Klingons either overtly or covertly. Did the Klingons have other help? Maybe even Romulan help? The Federation could have also suffered a major disaster or setback during this timeframe. In the prime timeline, they pulled through thanks to not being at war with anyone.
Here's a timeline that could possibly result in the Federation being brought to it's knees:
1) Events in Undiscovered Country. Federation assists empire in rebuilding
2) Tomed Incident, battle between Romulans and Federation resulting in a crippling treaty imposed on the Federation. (I do not count the events of that detestable novel)
3) Loss of Enterprise-C, breakdown in Klingon-Federation relations over certain issues.
4) There is no #4 (EDIT: DON'T POST WHEN DRUNK
5) Cardassian Conflicts: Multiple skirmishes and small-scale border-wars bleed Starfleet slowly.
6) Talarian/Tzenkethi Wars: Again, a drain on resources.
7) Political bull**** evolves into border flareups along the Klingon Frontier, a gradual escalation over several years leads to all-out war across a wide front.
8) Borg Incursion: Several outposts along the Neutral Zone go missing. The Romulans blame the Federation and launch a preemptive attack.
9) The Klingon press their advantage on the Federation. Loss of the Enterprise.
10) Wolf 359: Federation loses 40 ships to the Borg. Last ditch efforts above Earth result in the destruction of the cube, tremendous loss of life and damage to Sol System infrastructure.
This results in the Federation as a whole seeking a political resolution (surrender) to the conflict with the Klingons.
And yes, also a good point, a few things could had gone badly wrong because the Federation were too focused defending the Klingon border and eventually were brought down by a thousand cuts
Actually, it kinda did. The explosion polluted the atmosphere of Qo'noS... that's why they needed to divert resources from that massive military budget to combat that "catastrophe." That was not hyperbole on Spock's part... the Praxis incident affected the Klingon Empire on many fronts.
(Remember, too, that STIV was an allusion to the fall of Soviet Russia, so Praxis was to be the Chernobyl analogy.)
Thus the "They are dying" "LET them die!" exchange.
In this case, one error in particular gaurunteed axis defeat, and it was an error they had already made once in WW1! Attacking Russia and opening up a two front war was a mind bogglingly stupid idea. There's a chance things would have turned out differently if they had let the dust settle on Europe before turning to Russia. It's scary to think about, but it's true, because England had 1 foot in the grave and pearl harbor had not been attacked yet.
Pearl Harbor was the second biggest mistake by the Axis powers. Delaying BOTH of those attacks would have almost gaurunteed europe and Russia being completely conquered, and would have put the US in a very bad position.
In fact Star Trek: Enterprise plays off this premise in the season 4 premier, where a key assassination before WWII prevented the rise of communist Russia and thus Hitler chose not to attack Russia until it was in a much better position, and eventually it conquered Britain and the northeast of the United States.
Yep. And hence Spock's confused and horrified reaction (even for a Vulcan)... Kirk was having an Archer moment, LOL, and advocating negligent genocide. Ouch.
Castillo mentions in episode that another round of peace negotiations were going on when the Enterprise C left - the implication the talks fell apart when the Enterprise-C apparently ran away when it fell into the rift, but instead helped secure the lasting alliance between the Empire and Federation at the time of TNG in the normal timeline.
This worked really well for the writers accidentally, with a resurgent Empire post-Praxis brought into an alliance, where if the Ent-C disappeared, presumably the (this is the Klingon Empire we're talking about, it's inevitable they were around) warmongers were able to use this as some example of the Federation being weak and then things did not go well.
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Basically:
The Klingons see the Ent-C disappear during the attack and think it simply left and decided to run instead of fight. Which causes the Klingons to see the feds as cowards/traitors.
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You also need to consider that Praxis' destruction may not have occurred in the Mirror Universe timeline regardless if the episode was written before Star Trek 6.
If everything that happens in the Prime Universe also occurred in the Mirror Universe, then technically that means there is no Terran Empire in the Mirror Universe because it did not occur in the Prime Universe.
Yesterday's Enterprise =/= mirror universe. It's the closest TNG we have to a mirror, but it is not actually the mirror universe.
Ahhh... yes.
You are correct. The Yesterday's Enterprise episode is basically the prime universe up until the disappearance of the Enterprise C.
Then there were the ludicrously massive tanks der Fuhrer wanted to crush his foes beneath; had they settled for just cranking out more tanks with smaller improvements, the might of the German war machine may have been enough. Under the circumstances, though...
David Brin (the Uplift Trilogy, The Life Eaters) was once challenged to produce a story for an anthology of stories about "what if the TRIBBLE had won WWII?" He said he found it almost impossible - he couldn't come up with a plausible excuse for the TRIBBLE to win, "because they were just such schmucks!" (The story he finally wrote was called Thor Meets Captain America, and is almost certainly nothing like what you're thinking of.)
I wasn't trying to say those were the only two mistakes, but they WERE far and away the biggest of them all. Germany had the resources to take England, but Hitler was unsatisfied with the results of the pre-invasion bombings and delayed the invasion to allow for more bombings that were destined to fail thanks to the RAF churning out planes and saving pilots at an incredible rate.
Had he simply invaded as planed, England would have crumbled, but instead he basically said "Oh well, lets attack the Russians instead," and thereby doomed his entire war effort to the same mistakes Germany had made in the first World War. Then Japan bombing Pearl Harbor put the final nail in the coffin, it just took a couple years to drive it all the way home.