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Confused - Rather Annoying!
nibbr
Member Posts: 10 Arc User
Hi
I am really confused as to when I play PVP my ship literally is destroyed very quickly, by a single person! I am confused by this because as far as i am concerned my ship is pretty strong:
Tier 5 Rep on all but 8472
I have loads of hull and shield traits
All my weapons are very rare levels XIV with consoles to go with the quantum torps and antiproton beams
I have the assimilated deflector at level XIV
Assimilated shields at level XIV
Tier 6 operations battle cruiser
Other bits such as emergency shield power, emergency shields passive, shield repairing shuttles etc etc
My specialisation is only at level 3 right now as this is a new ship i bought, but still, why is it someone can destroy me so easily? I am pretty well armed up here, what weapon must they be using...not even the borg or the voth can destroy me.
Talking about the borg, I find it strange that I can destroy a cube easier than a sphere, that makes no sense!
I am really confused as to when I play PVP my ship literally is destroyed very quickly, by a single person! I am confused by this because as far as i am concerned my ship is pretty strong:
Tier 5 Rep on all but 8472
I have loads of hull and shield traits
All my weapons are very rare levels XIV with consoles to go with the quantum torps and antiproton beams
I have the assimilated deflector at level XIV
Assimilated shields at level XIV
Tier 6 operations battle cruiser
Other bits such as emergency shield power, emergency shields passive, shield repairing shuttles etc etc
My specialisation is only at level 3 right now as this is a new ship i bought, but still, why is it someone can destroy me so easily? I am pretty well armed up here, what weapon must they be using...not even the borg or the voth can destroy me.
Talking about the borg, I find it strange that I can destroy a cube easier than a sphere, that makes no sense!
Post edited by nibbr on
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Secondly: Surgical Strikes. Search the forums for tons of other justified complaints about it.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Surgical strikes? What do you mean?
I found out what he means, but i don't see how a little more accuracy on the weapons rips through 7000+ point shields, plus 300+ regen with a single shot...it's insane.
He thinks that it's the power Surgical Strikes that is killing you.
That may be true, but to be honest - if you're new to PvP, being killed very quickly is likely to happen. Even if you're well geared.
A lot in PvP is also about timing, counters and burst strikes. If you don't react fast enough, and don't put up the right counters, you will likely be overwhelmed by an enemies alpha strike.
For example, a "vaper" will uncloak directly behind you, launch a massive alpha of all his offensive abilities, and as you scramble to click on some defense skills, you're already dead.
Others will launch an attack, wait until you have all your defences up, and then use a power like subnucleonic beam to remove them all and extent your cooldown reductions, and then launch their real alpha strike, while you are waiting for your defences to recover and get overwhelmed.
It takes experience to learn how to read the enemy's attacks, know how to counter them. Dealing with cloak is particular challenging.
I haven't played PvP in a long time, so I can't offer much current advice. Your best guess is to visit the PvP forums and ask for advice. Ideally even find some likeminded individuals that you can team up with.
PvP is broken, don't even bother.
It's not just a little more accuracy. It's 20-40% accuracy, 20-40% crth, and on top of that, while halving the firing rate, the damage per shot is increased by 2-2.8x. It is rather significant, high burst, single target damage, which is mostly what counts in PvP.
And there is a good point made about "if you're new to PvP, being killed very quickly is likely to happen. Even if you're well geared." - that's what I was trying to cover in the "they're players" thing I noted.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
PVP lost much of its luster after about year 2.
It does offer dilitihum.
My advice....if you like pvp read up on builds and take your licks...you will learn how to compensate for the pvp'ers who are powerful...
PVP in STO is a dead end......years agoi
I have done ISAs with players who did 500 dps (not 500.000) and there are some who do more than 100.000. Ie: Some players know what they are doing, others do not. The gap is massive.
There are many ways to kill an enemy. One of my toons has flow caps of over 300 and can drain about 70-100 power to all levels, stopping engine, dropping shields and aux (= heals). Unless you have built some defense against that (resistance against power drain, batteries,...), you are dead.
Others have specialized on Feedback pulse - lowering your resistance and killing you with oyur own energy weapons.
Point is: If your ship isn't great, in PvP you'lk die very quickly. If you're good, there's always someone better or some attack against which you don't have a defense.
PvPs are more intense, more challenging (and often decided by lag).
hint: if you have an engineer toon, use that at first in PvPs and try to build a tank. Survival is more important than doing damage at first. In arena, every time you die, your enemy gets a (cheap?) point.
KDF: 2 tacs, 2 engs, 3 scis
KDF Roms: 3 tacs, 1 eng, 1 scis
FED: 2 tacs, 1 eng, 2 scis
TOS: 1 tac
all on T5 rep (up to temporal)
all have mastered Intel tree (and some more specs Points)
highest DPS: 60.982
It wasn't this bad before the perfect storm of Upgraded Gear & Intel Ships hit. Those PvP arena queues used to launch in 30 seconds or less.
Free Tibet!
Really PvP has almost gotten to the point where hull and shield doesn't matter anymore... because it's going to be vaped regardless of how much you have in it. Damage... burst and dps... has begun to outpace any ships ability to counter it effectively... which is why in PvE they gave ships millions... and millions... of HPs... to counter the vape... but that counter hasn't made it to PvP...
what is more annoying is opening a can of whoop TRIBBLE and barely denting a shield.
seems either every dies in 2 secs or cant be killed.
the ques take longer than any matches
When something is overpowered in PVP, and gets nerfed to balance it, or because players complain, instead of adjust, it is also nerfed for PVE. An example is Beam Overload. After it was initially nerfed when they made it 100% crit, it was perfect for PVE, but those in PVP were getting killed too fast, so its base damage was nerfed again. Now, it is doing less damage than it did before, when it didn't crit.
However, it also works the other way. Something that is nerfed in PVE because it is helping payers clear queues too fast because of how much DPS it does will get nerfed. Then, a lot of times, it will make it useless for PVP.
Since the gear and equipment is not kept separate in how they work from PVP to PVE, there is no chance at balance since players are smart, but the NPCs are just skill spammers. So, what works for one will not work for the other.
Then, there is also the problem that some combinations of skills, gear, weapons, etc that are just plain over powered because if it wasn't, players wouldn't buy them.
If you are just wanting to do PVP, then I would suggest another game for that. If you are determined to do it in STO, it will involve either a lot of money, or in-game resources, and then expect something you got to be nerfed due to either PVP, or PVE, and it possibly needing to be replaced.
I don't PVP anymore, except to test builds to see what they can do. And even then, it is with friends, and we explain what specific test we want to do before hand.
Surgical Strikes makes it even worse though as it increases the burst even higher. My eclipse regularly gets entire volleys where all the beams crit for 30-35k+, in the same instant. And then again a few moments later.
The best defense is a good offense, especially because our defenses don't come close to standing up to our offenses.
Yeah this... before Cryptic comes in and assumes the issue is Surgical Strikes and nerfs it into worthlessness... I'm sorry "balances it"... it's important that people understand that Surgical Strikes just magnified and already existing condition... it's not the cause.
Basically Cryptic's idea of balance is too see how much DPS a ship can do. To counter that in PvE and because it's "too hard" to make a decent AI do decent things... they decided to try and cap the genie's bottle by raising HPs on ships to literally stupid levels... where a ship has more hitpoints then a small planet... not even including it's shields.
Problem is... in their ever increasing need to make DPS king and make the next shiney more OP in the DPS wars better then the previous they never bothered to go back and make a balance pass on ships and upgrade across the board ship HPs and shields...
Which makes sense since PvE AI is stupid and literally isn't all that challenging once you build a ship around a scenerio. For PvE they make Advanced and Elite "challenging" by making fairly unreasonable time tables and making the ships do a certain high level of DPS... which is still managable because of horrible AI.
Problem is.... people aren't always stupid... well okay maybe they are but they tend to be more adaptable... okay not always but those who survive in PvP usually are more adaptable. So you can take this high level of DPS that Cryptic is giving you and use it against the "pve" balanced ships and hps.
So basically you have weapons designed to go up against 5 million+ hp ships in PvE which won't do more then say 10000 dps going up against ship that have 60 to 90k hulls and maybe 50k shields.
I learned the starship combat through hard knocks in PvP, this DPS race promotes mind-numbing min-maxing over a few percentage point differences. If PvP were made more viable, Cryptic could then resort to NPCs using abilities (hey, even a mere Tac Team) than raising the shield and hit points of enemy vessels. Seriously; when people complain that Borg spheres drain shields too quickly... seriously? A little use of powers and people are already complaining.
You do realize that PvP players challenge DPS board leaders and are routinely turned down. You can generated 100K+ DPS, but you'll still likely lose to a seasoned PvPer.
You can learn a lot in the PvP forums, don't take the hostility at face value. It is a well-justified persecution complex.
P.S. I do 20-30K DPS in a Fleet Galaxy-X using phasers, no Tac team... I run a few weapons for spikes... not the way to go for maximizing DPS. But, I like spike damage;)
I don't pvp. But I am an average player, or only slightly above that, and I can hit an NPC target for 10-15 THOUSAND damage PER SHOT with surgical strikes. The difference between my KDF best ship and my faeht romulan ship is more than double (dps terms) with pretty much the same gear. And there are ways to hit even harder; I am missing several pieces of the top stuff and am not in a hurry to grind out the top items, I do more than enough.
Shooting at a player I would do less damage per hit, but even if you resisted 50% of my damage, I would still rip off your 7k shield in like 2 seconds. And 7k shields is like an escort; it is "delicate". My tanky ships have more than twice this much shielding, so your defenses are not exactly top notch / tank quality. It really does not matter.... the TOP dps attackers in pvp are going to kill you even if you had 20k shields and massive resists. Dps in this game is overwhelming and there is nothing at all you can do to defend yourself except to shoot back and whoever does the mostest the fastest wins.
The solution?
Don't even bother to try to seriously balance for PVP, the vast majority of MMO players want nothing to do with PVP and that is a fact.
All in all though, you could generally jump on most anyone at your gear level in a battleground and expect fairly even odds of victory. Once you gained good gear, you became an unstoppable killing machine when facing those that were undergeared.
No I kind of disagree... PvP has never been balanced. WoW certainly wasn't... but what kept happening in WoW was that the devs would nerf anything that became too OP and then the min/maxers would move to the next FOTM build... and so on and so on...
That then became the standard for almost every MMO out there... FOTM builds with cycles of nerfing any FOTM build and buffing anything that wasn't FOTM to then make the next FOTM build.
But it was never balanced... no PvP has ever been balanced... it always has... and always will be about FOTM
But... and here's the big but exception... even when FOTM everyone generally had a chance. Sure there was a good chance that anything FOTM was going to win... but a well played character with a good build still had a chance against a FOTM build. That's where WoW was balanced. And average player vs average player the FOTM would win every time... but an average player against a awesome player the awesome player would generally win... and generally not be using a FOTM build ironically...
Hence why so many expert players hate cookie cutter builds... because they're a crutch and a handicap for the weak and lazy who don't want to take the time to learn their class. But I degress.
PvP in STO has gotten to the point where you can't even fight back anymore. Unless you're literally the top 1% of players chances are it has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with who shot who first.
The FOTM thing was generally limited more to arenas, and especially 2v2. Occasionally a certain team setup would just rock everything else due to synergy between the two classes. Back when I last played, that was Fury Warriors and Resto Druids.. it was a nearly unstoppable combo when done well.
On the whole though, the system was pretty well balanced. I almost never looked at someone and went, nope.. not even gonna try that. He's "X" class and that's just not happening. Also, fights generally didn't end instantly. Sometimes, but generally they took a few moments at least. Adding a healer into the mix tended to extend that a good deal farther, occasionally even leading to a stalemate with each healer barely keeping their teammates and themselves alive indefinitely - provided nobody messed up.
That's how a system should work, and is quite well balanced on the whole. STO on the other hand.. is more like click, and dead. Whoever's got the fastest trigger finger is the victor, provided everyone knows what they're doing and isn't running a "playstyle" build.
As for cookie cutter builds.. elite players don't hate them. They tend to be the ones making them. They figure out what works best, then tell everyone else. The only ones that don't like it are the ones that just want to do whatever they want and don't want other people complaining about how they're doing a tiny fraction of what they should be because they're not running a certain setup. Those, of course, are hardly the elite players.
Maybe hate is the wrong word. I guess what I was trying to say is that elite players don't rely on cookie cutter builds. They push the envelope... test things out... are always trying something new and running math and such... but they don't place themselves into a rut of cookie cutter. As you say they're the ones that are finding out the cookie cutter builds... they're developing them... which means they don't just rely on cookie cutter builds... they "hate" them in the way of not relying on them but always trying to find something new and different and better.
The common people tend to just go to forums and find cookie cutter builds then assume that they are now gods amongts gods... then can't understand how someone using a non-cookie cutter build can beat them down...
Then yes there are the folks who simply want to do their own thing and don't care.
But yes they "hate" cookie cutter builds because you can't develop a cookie cutter build if you're stuck in a rut and not experimenting and doing the parsing and the math. You have to get out of a comfort zone and learn and try and understand systems and synergy.