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Say something positive about...Archer.

worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
edited March 2015 in Ten Forward
There has to be SOMEthing, right?

Alright, people. Say something positive about Jonathan Archer, the only moron to approach Kathryn Janeway in terms of blatant sentient rights abuses, hypocrisy, and generalized incompetence.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,951 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    worffan101 wrote: »
    There has to be SOMEthing, right?

    Alright, people. Say something positive about Jonathan Archer, the only moron to approach Kathryn Janeway in terms of blatant sentient rights abuses, hypocrisy, and generalized incompetence.

    He showed everybody who came after him what not to do.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    he can cut up a tree
  • baelogventurebaelogventure Member Posts: 1,002 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Archer...Positive...Archer, positive? Archer? Positive?!

    Nope. Nothing.
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    starswordc wrote: »
    He showed everybody who came after him what not to do.

    ...

    OK, there is that.

    Maybe...

    Through sheer luck he saved Earth from a problem that may or may not have been caused by his own incompetence?
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 56,049 Community Moderator
    edited March 2015
    He was a hands on Captain, willing to take risks even if the Vulcans weren't. He also managed to end the standoff between the Vulcans and Andorians.

    He may not have been perfect, but no one is. After all, when he took command of Enterprise... no one knew what to expect. Yes he made mistakes, but they were human mistakes. Not Vulcan. Without Archer... Starfleet would have been grounded for another 100 years thanks to the Vulcans, which means no Kirk on the USS Enterprise... which might have been about as advanced as an NX class and not a Constitution class.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
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  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I don't understand all the hate.
    He was the first Captain to head out beyond known space at the time.
    So he screwed up a few times, name one explorer that hasn't.

    I like Captain Archer, I enjoyed the show and still do.

    I like TOS also, despite shows like "Spock's Brain".

    I don't blame the Characters for what the Writers made them do.

    Overall, they got it pretty right.

    :cool:
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 56,049 Community Moderator
    edited March 2015
    I have to agree with daveyny. Comparing Archer to Captains from the future doesn't really work. Archer was in command in a time where Starfleet was only starting to get its feet wet. Humans were literally the new kids on the block, unaware of the dangers that exist out there.

    Also... Writers are the ones to blame, not the characters themselves.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,951 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    daveyny wrote: »
    I don't understand all the hate.
    He was the first Captain to head out beyond known space at the time.
    So he screwed up a few times, name one explorer that hasn't.

    I like Captain Archer, I enjoyed the show and still do.

    I like TOS also, despite shows like "Spock's Brain".

    I don't blame the Characters for what the Writers made them do.

    Overall, they got it pretty right.

    :cool:

    Archer is a "trained diplomat" who can't understand why his dog peeing on a sacred tree might derail a negotiation, and then threatens to do that himself to spite his opposite number.

    Janeway was psychotic. Archer is just a dumbass.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    starswordc wrote: »
    Archer is a "trained diplomat" who can't understand why his dog peeing on a sacred tree might derail a negotiation, and then threatens to do that himself to spite his opposite number.

    Janeway was psychotic. Archer is just a dumbass.

    ...and you just proved my point.

    The Writers were idiots, not the Character.
    STO Member since February 2009.
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  • kintishokintisho Member Posts: 1,040 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    He could have leaped out at any time...
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    starswordc wrote: »
    Archer is a "trained diplomat" who can't understand why his dog peeing on a sacred tree might derail a negotiation, and then threatens to do that himself to spite his opposite number.

    Janeway was psychotic. Archer is just a dumbass.
    *points to Dear Doctor*

    Sure you don't want to call him out for abetting genocide?
    daveyny wrote: »
    ...and you just proved my point.

    The Writers were idiots, not the Character.

    ...this is a character who never showed anything resembling competence.

    "Unexpected"--shows no concern that an officer was r*ped by the aliens he was assisting and is now suffering from an extremely dangerous pregnancy.

    "Dear Doctor"--abets and applauds genocide.

    "Fight or Flight"--shows abject command incompetence by just sort of puttering around and ordering people to generally do stuff and nearly gets his people killed horribly.

    "The Andorian Incident"--sides with the people who just tortured him and beat him up over his allies. Also doesn't even order passive scans of the area before waltzing into the P'Jem sanctuary because reasons. And needs lessons from T'Pol in appropriate behavior in a place of worship (something most of us learn before we can walk) and calls that HARD.

    "Shadows of P'Jem"--Spends most of the time he's tied up with his XO verbally abusing her, then motorboats her because Berman and Braga.

    "A Night In Sickbay"--this one speaks for itself.

    I could go on--"Fortunate Son" and "Silent Enemy", the Xindi arc in general--but I'm bored.

    Archer's demonstrably a fool at best and a nut job at worst.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,951 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    worffan101 wrote: »
    *points to Dear Doctor*

    Sure you don't want to call him out for abetting genocide?

    No, but I am willing to chalk that up to his aforementioned stupidity. At least he's consistently portrayed as an idiot. :D
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,855 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    You can say "blame the writers, not the character" all you like - but Jonathan Archer isn't a real person; he's defined by the writers. And they've defined him as a "trained diplomat" who shows less training than I do, a man who cares deeply about his crew unless he thinks their condition might be funny, and a man with some rather bigoted feelings for nonhumans.

    On the other paw, I can't fault him for listening to the Andorians at P'jem - he's already had reasons to think Vulcans don't always tell the truth, despite their protestations of not lying. And it turned out the Andorians were right, and the Vulcans were lying; it was just that not all Vulcans, not even all those at the monastery, were aware of what was going on.

    Archer was human, with all that implies, and started off with a chip on his shoulder regarding Vulcans (because of how they tried to hold back his father's work on faster warp drives). He should never have been placed in command, but he was, and he did the best he could with what he had to work with. And he did help figure out why the Prime Directive was a good idea, although the TOS episode "Patterns of Force" gave an even better demonstration, IMO.
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  • sarreoussarreous Member Posts: 336 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    When Archer and what's his face are stranded in that desert, he all but force feeds conveniently placed water to his dehydrated officer who goes on to survive.

    Archer SAVED the guy's LIFE. And as far as I know he didn't have to desecrate anything or punch any Vulcans to pull it off.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,825 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    some positive aboutarcher? archer playing as special agent pride becoming obsessive like he was on the starship enterprise hunting the xindi, the positive part is that it made it easier to turn off the tv and watch something better then that wringeworthy attempt at a vendetta.
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  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,364 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Say something positive about Archer? Okay. How about a list?

    - His cholesterol number was low.
    - He liked dogs. A lot.
    - Ummm...That's all I got. Sorry. :D

    Edit: Forgot a couple.

    - He had his Vulcan under control.
    - He wasn't Janeway.

    All done! :P
    Nope. It ain't Discovery. It ain't Picard. It's not SNW, either.
    It's your obsessive-compulsive belief that you are the only 'real' Star Trek fan around here.
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,889 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I liked archer, heck i liked most of the nx01 crew ... Mayweather was a bit forgettable though, kind of a generic ensign.

    Voyager on the other hand ... that was the only star trek show where I legitimately disliked at least half the crew. Tuvok, Kes, and Harry were all boring, Chekotay's mysticism had no place in Trek and he was also boring, and Janeway's characterization was inconsistent. That leaves five out of ten characters that i actually really liked.

    Back to the NX crew though, my absolute favorite would have to be mirror Hoshi.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Archer had the sense to not always do things his way. Granted he didn't always do things RIGHT, but he wasn't a complete idiot. Many of his mistakes were things that made sense in the context of someone who didn't know what the right course of action was. As for "why didn't he listen to the Vulcans?" I think someone else covered that one. :P
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  • organicmanfredorganicmanfred Member Posts: 3,236 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    He has a great german voice over who is known for a lot of brillant cartoon characters here.
  • grylakgrylak Member Posts: 1,590 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Dear Doctor: This is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. You say he was allowing genocide? He was maintaining the natural order of that planet. Who was he, who is ANY of us to go waltzing up to a planet and directly change it's natural evolution? Yes, it's a tough choice. And it showed in the episode. Certainly isn't a choice I would want to make. What if some aliens had turned up and helped the Dinosaur's survive their extinction event? We'd all be running around as Voth now. Likewise in that episode where Trip taught that cogenitor to think for itself, and Archer was against that.


    Notice how all these comments of hate come from the first 2 seasons? Once Coto came onboard, I hear no critcisms from those episodes.


    Positive stuff about Archer:


    He forced Trip to drink the water in that desert, regardless of how dehydrated Archer was.

    He willingly blew himself out of an airlock to secure the safety and quarantine of Cold Station 12 and all those within.

    He went with what he felt was morally right, not what was diplomatically right (P'Jem and it's fallout comes to mind here. And the release of all those Suliban prisoners in that camp). Granted the exception to this was during the Xindi arc, but the man was under extreme stress in completely unfair and whacked out situations. And even when he did have to go all dark side, he still tried to give some fairness. He transported food and supplies to that ship he stole the coil from, and refused to target their weapons, despite the damage to Enterprise.

    He got a quardrant on the brink of war to the negotiating table and was directly responsible for forming the Coalition, which in turn directly became the Federation.


    He was an honest to God human character, with flaws and passions.
    *******************************************

    A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
  • moonshadowdarkmoonshadowdark Member Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I thought for a second this was going to be about Sterling Archer. I came with excitement.

    Phrasing, BOOM!
    "A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"

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  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    grylak wrote: »
    Dear Doctor: This is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. You say he was allowing genocide? He was maintaining the natural order of that planet. Who was he, who is ANY of us to go waltzing up to a planet and directly change it's natural evolution? Yes, it's a tough choice. And it showed in the episode. Certainly isn't a choice I would want to make. What if some aliens had turned up and helped the Dinosaur's survive their extinction event? We'd all be running around as Voth now. Likewise in that episode where Trip taught that cogenitor to think for itself, and Archer was against that.

    Natural order? Natural order????? You DARE to call that perversion of science natural order???

    News flash, Berman and Braga: Evolution doesn't work that way! There is no such thing as "natural" evolution! Evolution is simply the change in a population in response to environmental stress to favor reproductive viability. There is no conceivable way to make Phlox and Archer's actions logical or justifiable.

    As for the congenitor...that's a society that makes a policy of abusing and oppressing a minority of the species. Trip didn't just have every right to teach the congenitor to think for xirself, he had a moral OBLIGATION to do so.
  • marcusdkanemarcusdkane Member Posts: 7,439 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I decline to provide an answer :cool:
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    worffan101 wrote: »
    Natural order? Natural order????? You DARE to call that perversion of science natural order???

    News flash, Berman and Braga: Evolution doesn't work that way! There is no such thing as "natural" evolution! Evolution is simply the change in a population in response to environmental stress to favor reproductive viability. There is no conceivable way to make Phlox and Archer's actions logical or justifiable.

    As for the congenitor...that's a society that makes a policy of abusing and oppressing a minority of the species. Trip didn't just have every right to teach the congenitor to think for xirself, he had a moral OBLIGATION to do so.

    So our morals override another planets Completely Different Society's morals because...???

    That's the entire ambiguous question of the episode... What gives us the right to do so?

    Why are ours superior to another Society's, who have been functioning just fine for many, many generations...?

    :confused:
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  • grylakgrylak Member Posts: 1,590 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    There was a mutation in their DNA that was the trigger. It wasn't caused by genetic engineering, or anything like that. It was the way that species evolved, and unfortunately, something went wrong. Now, if they were the only sentient species on the planet, it would be more of a cut and dry thing. But because there was that second species there, and whom demonstrated their ability that they too were advanced, and could flourish and thrive if given the chance, THAT's where the dilemma comes into play. What it essentially boils down to is you choosing which species should live, and which should die.

    And things go wrong with DNA all the time. Mutations occur. People are colour blind. They have different eye colours. They get asthma. They get cancer. They are born with defects. That's what's happened, but on a global scale.


    And Trip had a moral obligation? Ok. Yeah. Sure. I can see that, from a human viewpoint. But look what happened. The Cogenitor wasn't properly climatised. Wasn't able to function with this new set of alien thinking, and commited suicide. That was some quality results from obligations right there.
    *******************************************

    A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
  • jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Something nice about archer?

    Well there was that one time....no he messed that up

    OH but then he....no he really pizzeled those people off

    BUT then there was that...nope he messed that one aswell


    Well i did like quantumn leap if that counts :D
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    grylak wrote: »
    There was a mutation in their DNA that was the trigger. It wasn't caused by genetic engineering, or anything like that. It was the way that species evolved, and unfortunately, something went wrong. Now, if they were the only sentient species on the planet, it would be more of a cut and dry thing. But because there was that second species there, and whom demonstrated their ability that they too were advanced, and could flourish and thrive if given the chance, THAT's where the dilemma comes into play. What it essentially boils down to is you choosing which species should live, and which should die.

    And things go wrong with DNA all the time. Mutations occur. People are colour blind. They have different eye colours. They get asthma. They get cancer. They are born with defects. That's what's happened, but on a global scale.


    And Trip had a moral obligation? Ok. Yeah. Sure. I can see that, from a human viewpoint. But look what happened. The Cogenitor wasn't properly climatised. Wasn't able to function with this new set of alien thinking, and commited suicide. That was some quality results from obligations right there.

    You really don't get it.

    In "Dear Doctor", there is no realistic way at all for an entire species to start dying of a genetic disease. Not unless its population is 1.

    The right thing to do would have been to either enforce equal rights or relocate the Menk to another planet. There is simply no realistic way for an entire species to suddenly start dying of a genetic disease; worse, Phlox implies that this already preposterous situation is somehow NATURAL.

    Thereby showing unequivocally that neither Berman nor Braga has ever taken freshman Biology.

    As for "Congenitor": The fault lies unequivocally with the alien society for its horrific, oppressive treatment of congenitors. I blame nurture (or lack thereof) over nature.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,951 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    daveyny wrote: »
    So our morals override another planets Completely Different Society's morals because...???

    That's the entire ambiguous question of the episode... What gives us the right to do so?

    Why are ours superior to another Society's, who have been functioning just fine for many, many generations...?

    :confused:

    So because Southern landowners had been owning blacks as slaves for many, many generations and their society functioned basically just fine until the Civil War (which wasn't directly about slavery), the North had no right to impose abolition on them with the Thirteenth Amendment?

    Because that's your argument applied to the real world. The fact that Trip failed does not make his actions any less right.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • grylakgrylak Member Posts: 1,590 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    This is Science FICTION, not Science FACT. It is not meant to be 100% realistic if you can get a good story out of fudging some stuff so it's not 100% super realistic.


    Anyway, good things about Archer.

    He liked Water Polo.

    He loved his pet dog.

    He was the one person solely responsible for creating the Federation. Did I mention that? Cos that is sort of a big deal that is very positive.
    *******************************************

    A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    worffan101 wrote: »
    You really don't get it.

    In "Dear Doctor", there is no realistic way at all for an entire species to start dying of a genetic disease. Not unless its population is 1.

    The right thing to do would have been to either enforce equal rights or relocate the Menk to another planet. There is simply no realistic way for an entire species to suddenly start dying of a genetic disease; worse, Phlox implies that this already preposterous situation is somehow NATURAL.

    Thereby showing unequivocally that neither Berman nor Braga has ever taken freshman Biology.
    Well, clearly someone hasn't.... Obviously the idea that Natural Selection would cause a race to die off is preposterous. But.... Natural Selection doesn't CREATE genetic diseases. However, the ENTIRE Valakian race had the condition, not just some of them.

    Viruses can cause genetic damage and give the next generation traits the current one doesn't. In this case it would seem that the virus WAS natural, and simply behaving in unusual ways. But Phlox said the problem was a part of Valakian DNA itself and NOT caused by an actual illness, so, meh. Of course, he could be wrong.... Retcons happen. Especially to stupid ideas. this one could easily be patched by saying the virus that caused the genetic damage was extinct for centuries.

    Either way.... how is this MORE preposterous than the pseudo-science from other episodes?
    starswordc wrote: »
    So because Southern landowners had been owning blacks as slaves for many, many generations and their society functioned basically just fine until the Civil War (which wasn't directly about slavery), the North had no right to impose abolition on them with the Thirteenth Amendment?

    Because that's your argument applied to the real world. The fact that Trip failed does not make his actions any less right.
    There's a fine line between influencing a civilization and forcing it on them. Trip's actions were about as far as you could go without starting a war.

    also... *points at ancient Greeks* Slavery does not always equate to treating other people like dogs.... Some cultures would actually execute a slave owner who killed one of their slaves.
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