This is one of the many examples that while Starfleet des share some designations and ranks with traditional earth navies it is *not the same*. Starfleets habit of ship designations, ranks, order of command and operation procedure is that of a fictional exploratory service in the 23rd and 24th century. Wether this is due to the writers having limited knowledge of these military practices or they changed it on purpose doesn't matter - what we see on screen is how it works.
This is not solely aimed at you, mind you. But I wish a lot of people n these forums alone would begin to understand that, especially military aficionados drawing comparisions to their own service time. That doesn't work.
In regards to the actual topic of your post, a ship commanded by an Admiral was called simply the "Admiral's ship" if I remember correctly. Flagship was a term designated to *the* flagship of the UFP/Starfleet.
I hate to break it to you, but Starfleet was very much a military service in the 23rd Century. They carried on the naval traditions of the Navies of old Earth. They had full bird colonels. They had assault troops. And they followed military decorum and regulations.
It wasn't until Roddenberry decided in the first season of TNG that the fate of the Federation was to be left to a bunch of rent-a-cops in golden pajamas, carrying ergonomically nightmarish sidearms that looked like Black and Decker dust busters, that the whole Starfleet isn't a military organization TRIBBLE came into being. Basically a giant middle finger to Harve Bennett and his full-on militarized Starfleet of the movie era. No more saluting. No more standing at attention. No more respect for a chain of command. No more bos'ns or boatswain's calls. A drab, dull, poorly thought out organization that barely qualified as a defensive paramilitary force, much less an agency that was the primary, national armed force of the UFP. Which is what consisted of Starfleet's primary mission in addition to exploration.
Like I pointed out in an earlier post, TNG (as does STO) uses the term "flagship" very loosely and in a colloquial manner. It's more akin to the Corvette being Chevrolet's "flagship" model. Or a Playstation 4 being Sony's "flagship" brand. It was the latest and greatest, made to impress and show off the progress and technological prowess of the Federation.
Star Trek, as in real life naval arms, had actual flagships where Admirals (Flag Officers) ran operations (i.e. hosting the Admiral's "colors" or "flag"). Some examples included the U.S.S. Bellerophon used by Admiral Ross during the Romulan conference, or Admiral Hanson's flagship at Wolf 359.
Oh, on a side note, those of us who actually served in our respective nations' armed forces, are more than mere "aficionados".
Given that Starfleet's primary mission was the defense of the Federation and her allies, I would say that makes the service a military. Dr David Marcus said it many times that Starfleet was the military. Besides the fact, there are ranks, court martials, JAG, enlisted, officers, a naval academy, change of command ceremonies, and etc.
I hate to break it to you, but Starfleet was very much a military service in the 23rd Century. They carried on the naval traditions of the Navies of old Earth. They had full bird colonels. They had assault troops. And they followed military decorum and regulations.
It wasn't until Roddenberry decided in the first season of TNG that the fate of the Federation was to be left to a bunch of rent-a-cops in golden pajamas, carrying ergonomically nightmarish sidearms that looked like Black and Decker dust busters, that the whole Starfleet isn't a military organization TRIBBLE came into being. Basically a giant middle finger to Harve Bennett and his full-on militarized Starfleet of the movie era. No more saluting. No more standing at attention. No more respect for a chain of command. No more bos'ns or boatswain's calls. A drab, dull, poorly thought out organization that barely qualified as a defensive paramilitary force, much less an agency that was the primary, national armed force of the UFP. Which is what consisted of Starfleet's primary mission in addition to exploration.
While I digress, it should be pointed out that it was actually Harve Bennett and Nicolas Meyer who altered Star Trek when designing Wrath of Khan, adding in naval traditions to fit Meyer's "Hornblower in Space" concept. I personally like what they did, but their work was really more the outlier, not Roddenberry's return to form in TNG.
Given that Starfleet's primary mission was the defense of the Federation and her allies, I would say that makes the service a military. Dr David Marcus said it many times that Starfleet was the military. Besides the fact, there are ranks, court martials, JAG, enlisted, officers, a naval academy, change of command ceremonies, and etc.
Who says it's their primary mission?
Also ranks, ceremonies ect are a common thing in civilian fleets, too. Even a cruise liner has ranks and ceremonies.
Given that they drop everything and race to any threat to the Federation, I would say it is their primary mission.
Not to the degree that we see shown in Starfleet. Perhaps the American agency, NOAA, comes close to being a not-military organization with similar organizational practice, but NOAA was originally created out the US National Geodetic Survey Agency, in which that started out as a US Treasury Agency that operated with the US Navy to the point that the Navy took over operations during the 19th Century.
While I digress, it should be pointed out that it was actually Harve Bennett and Nicolas Meyer who altered Star Trek when designing Wrath of Khan, adding in naval traditions to fit Meyer's "Hornblower in Space" concept. I personally like what they did, but their work was really more the outlier, not Roddenberry's return to form in TNG.
I don't know - if you watch TOS, there is a lot of indication that it is a military organization.
I think for example in the Tribble episode you see a bunch of people standing attention and getting into trouble for the bar fight they got into. The whole thing is only really fitting for some kind of (para)military organization. You wouldn't see that in a university, lab or or in typical (Western) corporate organization.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Given that they drop everything and race to any threat to the Federation, I would say it is their primary mission.
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Is your knowledge based on the jar jar trek films alone?
Because in the series that's not how it works.
Starfleet obviously serves the military function, that's out of the question. But outside of the dominion war that was mostly secondary to exploration or diplomatic assignments, both things militaries do not do in that way.
That's mainly why I liked the MACOs in enterprise so much, it showed how much (that times) starfleet was NOT a military by putting actual military right next to them.
Is your knowledge based on the jar jar trek films alone?
Because in the series that's not how it works.
Starfleet obviously serves the military function, that's out of the question. But outside of the dominion war that was mostly secondary to exploration or diplomatic assignments, both things militaries do not do in that way.
That's mainly why I liked the MACOs in enterprise so much, it showed how much (that times) starfleet was NOT a military by putting actual military right next to them.
We have seen multiple times (TOS, movies, TNG) where the crew was diverted from thier function of exploration to matters of security of state. Its not like the Federatipn calls in a ship that isnt up to anythng but further away because a closer ship is doing stellar chartography, they make that ship drop the exploration duties and haul duff to the threat, and maybe send that other ship in as support.
Defense of the Federation is the priority for Starfleet, exploration is if situations permit. Most of the time a cruiser is in that area instead of an Oberth is a projection of strength. Other than extreme range exploration ( which the D rarely did) or dealing with threats, a smaller cheaper ship wouldve been just as effective and cost less resources. How many crew does it take to observe nebulae, transport medicine or a team of doctors, or similar tasks? I doubt 1,000.
Exploration is a big goal, but not the primary driver.
As far as the MACOs go, where was the military's warships? Fighter craft? No matter what Reid and Trip say, the differencebetween MACOs and security teams is Special Forces/Marines and MP/Sp/AP's.
We have seen multiple times (TOS, movies, TNG) where the crew was diverted from thier function of exploration to matters of security of state. Its not like the Federatipn calls in a ship that isnt up to anythng but further away because a closer ship is doing stellar chartography, they make that ship drop the exploration duties and haul duff to the threat, and maybe send that other ship in as support.
Defense of the Federation is the priority for Starfleet, exploration is if situations permit. Most of the time a cruiser is in that area instead of an Oberth is a projection of strength. Other than extreme range exploration ( which the D rarely did) or dealing with threats, a smaller cheaper ship wouldve been just as effective and cost less resources. How many crew does it take to observe nebulae, transport medicine or a team of doctors, or similar tasks? I doubt 1,000.
Exploration is a big goal, but not the primary driver.
As far as the MACOs go, where was the military's warships? Fighter craft? No matter what Reid and Trip say, the differencebetween MACOs and security teams is Special Forces/Marines and MP/Sp/AP's.
Funny the opposite has been stated about every second episode.
Also if starfleet is primary a military force, why didn't they build any warships (before the defiante came arround)?
Again they clearly have the task of deffense, and since there doesn't seem to be an actual military they obviously are the ones to react to threads.
But that does not make it their primary function.
And, as angrytarg said: it doesn't need to compare to the way we today see "military" work. Star Trek (not counting Iin ent) takes place between 200 and 400 years in the future.
200 - 400 years in the past military here worked entirely different, too. The federation has simply given up the concept of a pure defense organisation.
Also if starfleet is primary a military force, why didn't they build any warships (before the defiante came arround)?
The Defiant was Starfleet's first ship built SOLELY for combat. That does not mean that Stafleet's other ships cannot be competitive in war. The GCS was not designed as a pure warship, but she could sure as hell be one.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
Where do you draw this conclusion from? Aside from the Enterprise-D no Enterprise was ever called the flagship. The Enterprise surely is a famed and prestigous name, ship and crew. It's stuff of legend, but aside from the D it was never stated the Enterprise was the flagship.
Now it would make sense, don't get me wrong. But we don't know that. And every time when something big happened the admirals decided to not be on the Enterprise (probably because they needed to get killed to make it more dramatic ).
Actually NCC-1701 was referred to as the flagship of the fleet at least once. It was either in the season 1 TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" or in "The Alternative Factor"...possibly both.
While I digress, it should be pointed out that it was actually Harve Bennett and Nicolas Meyer who altered Star Trek when designing Wrath of Khan, adding in naval traditions to fit Meyer's "Hornblower in Space" concept. I personally like what they did, but their work was really more the outlier, not Roddenberry's return to form in TNG.
Actually it was definitely military from its inception. Go back and watch the season 1 TOS episode "A Taste of Armageddon". There was even general order 24, which ordered Scotty to attack and annihilate all cities on the surface of the planet.
The vaunted and precious "prime directive" did not even appear until TOS season 2.
Actually, we do know that the Enterprise was the second Constitution. Its the NCC-1701, with the Constitution herself being the NCC-1700.
Other than that, the Federation's flagship isn't a military ship. Its a ship to embody the ideals of the Federation. It is built to explore, to engage in diplomacy, and sometimes to defend the Federation. This is why we see the Enterprise a lot, we have a lot of defending to do. Had it been peace, Shon would be flying beyond the reaches of explored space.
yeah but then there is the constellation that is NCC-1017......
While that makes sense to me, others will make the argument that in the script they said "THE flagship of the Federation." Thats the problem with Star Trek canon, its not as linear as it should be to quote it chapter and verse. Far too many outliers. But I love it anyways.
I say let them argue, it is there time to waste.
both Micheal Okuda and Rick Sternbach were tech consultants to TNG
from memory Alpha..
Michael "Mike" Hideo Okuda (on occasion affectionately called Mikey O by his close co-workers), hailing from Tokyo, Japan but raised in Honolulu, Hawaii, has been the scenic art supervisor for every live-action Star Trek production, set in the prime universe, excepting the original production of The Original Series and the first three Star Trek films. The fourth one, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, was actually Okuda's very first recorded motion picture industry credit and he thereby followed in the footsteps of Lee Cole, who as graphics designer had performed the same duties for the first two Star Trek films. As the art supervisor, heading Star Trek's Scenic Art Department during the entire run of the franchise from Star Trek: The Next Generation onward, he has been responsible for such things as the look of alien languages, computer screens, graphic detailing and perhaps even the look of the exotic artifacts Jean-Luc Picard has collected.
Okuda was honored by SkyBox International with an individual card entry, no. 04, in their 1993 specialty Star Trek: The Next Generation - Behind the Scenes trading card set.
Together with Rick Sternbach, he served as a technical consultant to the script staff, maintaining technical and chronological continuity and inventing scientific terms and technobabble, resulting in a number of internal "technical manuals". He is a co-author of the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, which resulted from the internal documents, the Star Trek Chronology, and the Star Trek Encyclopedia. Though never having taken a class in calculus in his life (being a graduate of the University of Hawaii-Manoa notwithstanding), Okuda is responsible for designing the logarithmic warp scale used in Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Is your knowledge based on the jar jar trek films alone?
Because in the series that's not how it works.
Starfleet obviously serves the military function, that's out of the question. But outside of the dominion war that was mostly secondary to exploration or diplomatic assignments, both things militaries do not do in that way.
That's mainly why I liked the MACOs in enterprise so much, it showed how much (that times) starfleet was NOT a military by putting actual military right next to them.
Your knowledge is obviously based off of not watching the series. Besides Federation Starfleet is a different entity from Earth Starfleet. Earth Starfleet would be the future NOAA (but armed), but after Season 3, we see Starfleet become what was seen on the other shows, primarily charged with the defense of Earth and eventually the Federation.
It would have been nice to see MACO-crewed Earth ships to at least help differentiate that Earth Starfleet was an exploratory agency rather than the only one in space besides the Earth Cargo Service.
Starfleet has always been a military, but most of us got influenced by Picard's view or maybe it was his dreamy eyes. By the time of Nemesis, Picard's stance has changed since he listed battlefield commander as one of his accomplishments.
The Defiant was Starfleet's first ship built SOLELY for combat. That does not mean that Stafleet's other ships cannot be competitive in war. The GCS was not designed as a pure warship, but she could sure as hell be one.
The Defiante could not even be labeled warship. It was "inofficialy" a war ship and "officially" an escort because building warship is/was against starfleets policy.
Your knowledge is obviously based off of not watching the series. Besides Federation Starfleet is a different entity from Earth Starfleet. Earth Starfleet would be the future NOAA (but armed), but after Season 3, we see Starfleet become what was seen on the other shows, primarily charged with the defense of Earth and eventually the Federation.
It would have been nice to see MACO-crewed Earth ships to at least help differentiate that Earth Starfleet was an exploratory agency rather than the only one in space besides the Earth Cargo Service.
Starfleet has always been a military, but most of us got influenced by Picard's view or maybe it was his dreamy eyes. By the time of Nemesis, Picard's stance has changed since he listed battlefield commander as one of his accomplishments.
I certainly watched the show.
You seem to be so arrogant to believe to know it better then the characters in the show. If they explicitly say they are not a military the "romanticize". Of course...
We did not get influenced by Picards view but but gene Roddenberrys view. That might not be realistic but it is simply the base for Star Trek.
Star Wars is not, neither is Abrahams.
The Defiante could not even be labeled warship. It was "inofficialy" a war ship and "officially" an escort because building warship is/was against starfleets policy.
I certainly watched the show.
You seem to be so arrogant to believe to know it better then the characters in the show. If they explicitly say they are not a military the "romanticize". Of course...
We did not get influenced by Picards view but but gene Roddenberrys view. That might not be realistic but it is simply the base for Star Trek.
Star Wars is not, neither is Abrahams.
Roddenberry's view ended at TNG Season 1. Besides, only one character has expressed his opinion of what Starfleet's mission was, Picard in Peak Performance. While others have expressed a preference to exploring rather than more militaristic missions, which is only natural. When I was in the service, not many actual soldiers wanted to go to war.
TOS, the movies, Later seasons of TNG, DS9, and VOY have all had stated that the defense of the Federation is Starfleet's primary goal. While, it is trying to be noble saying Starfleet is about exploration while destroying Borg cubes, Klingon ships, Cardassian warships, and Jem'hadar bugs.
Funny the opposite has been stated about every second episode.
Also if starfleet is primary a military force, why didn't they build any warships (before the defiante came arround)?
They have plenty of cruisers, and cruisers are (even if the Fed's disdain the term, warships, more on the use of terms) a warship. They design their cruisers to be able to fight against attackers (Klinks, Rommies, yes they have labs and such, but the ability to match their opponent is a key consideration in design.
Again they clearly have the task of deffense, and since there doesn't seem to be an actual military they obviously are the ones to react to threads.
But that does not make it their primary function.
And, as angrytarg said: it doesn't need to compare to the way we today see "military" work. Star Trek (not counting Iin ent) takes place between 200 and 400 years in the future.
200 - 400 years in the past military here worked entirely different, too. The federation has simply given up the concept of a pure defense organisation.
You act like today's militaries are pure defense org's, how much humanitarian operations and scientific research is the U.S. military involved in? Quite a bit. NOAA, NASA, State Dept., and the CIA, all civilian orgs', have a great deal of contribution by the military.
It's funny that you mentioned differences in time, I was going to mention it myself. Since the end of WWII, and over the last 60 years, the use of "political correctness" has been used to try to shape the minds of people for the users benefit, it's on the lines of George Carlins comparison of Baseball and Football:
-People were war weary, so the Korean and Vietnam Wars were called "Police Actions" (ask anyone who fought in them if they felt like they were in anything less than a war)
-The term "military" has been all but replaced with "Armed Forces", because its more sanitized
-Terrorist attacks are called "Manmade disasters", or "workplace violence"
-The (Global) War on Terror has now been replaced with "Overseas Contingency Operations"
and thats just a few military related terms.
Do I think in 200-300 years that the Federation will be so PC as claim that Starfleets job primary is "exploration" and not defense, and Starfleet personel will consider themselves explorers and shy away from using soldier, spacers, etc. ? Sure, by what we see in the show, exploration is romanticized and almost necessary to keep appearances of the UFP being the utopia that they claim it is. Of course during peace, there is a ton of room exploration, (after the defense of the state is ensured) there's a lot of space between systems that can be observed while on patrol. And Starfleet sure isn't the police dept. when its ships have offensive capable vessels and can arm every person on their ships to the teeth if need be.
There are also Federation ships that have the NAR (not NCC) registry, like the Raven and the Vico that were pure science/exploration ships that would be able to handle typical science missions and cost a lot less to do it than a cruiser.
I see it this way, the most critical aspect of ship deployment has to be defense, because while the Feds don't call themselves a military, other empires/races/etc do. The Federation has to use Starfleet as a deterrent for it to stay alive and credible. If they don't have adequate defenses, the other guys would have incursions and take territory, forcing the Federation to cede territory, or spend more resources to take it back (or risk losing member states and not gain new ones) than having. We know ships are assigned to key systems (like Earth), are they exploring, or defending.
Once the proper amount of ships have been set for defense, then they can safely assign exploration missions for ships, but not before the state is properly protected. If they were exploration primary, the defense of the state would almost be more by accident than anything else.
yeah but then there is the constellation that is NCC-1017......
True, but I guess that this case would simply be a missing letter, and really should have been NCC-1017-A. Just like we had the NX-01 followed by the NCC-1701. Or the Defiant, which was NCC-1764 prior to being the NX-74205 and NCC-75633. A matter of simply
Or it was a renamed ship, like how the Yorktown became the Enterprise-A. Maybe even an older, pre-constitution ship that was retrofitted to be a constitution. Maybe even an old refit NX class.
And since they probably built the Connies in the same shipyard (logical thinking makes this easy, and I kinda began to consider Axanar canon, so yeah xD), I'd say the chances are pretty good the Enterprise truly was the second Constitution-class commisioned.
That, or Starfleet just sucks with numbering their ships. Which I also find very plausible, considering how we went in 100 years from NX-01 to NCC-1701 and then in another hundred years to NX-74205. As well as with the example of the Defiant above.
True, but I guess that this case would simply be a missing letter, and really should have been NCC-1017-A. Just like we had the NX-01 followed by the NCC-1701. Or the Defiant, which was NCC-1764 prior to being the NX-74205 and NCC-75633. A matter of simply
Or it was a renamed ship, like how the Yorktown became the Enterprise-A. Maybe even an older, pre-constitution ship that was retrofitted to be a constitution. Maybe even an old refit NX class.
And since they probably built the Connies in the same shipyard (logical thinking makes this easy, and I kinda began to consider Axanar canon, so yeah xD), I'd say the chances are pretty good the Enterprise truly was the second Constitution-class commisioned.
That, or Starfleet just sucks with numbering their ships. Which I also find very plausible, considering how we went in 100 years from NX-01 to NCC-1701 and then in another hundred years to NX-74205. As well as with the example of the Defiant above.
Well they at some point in production decidet that the enterprise is the only ship having that a b c thing.
Which makes her and the Yamato (which had an e after her registry) the only ships.
And about the high numbers, keep in mind that small craft from a certain size on (including the ds9 runabouts) have unique registry numbers each.
The and the reason why the tos constitutions all had similar numbers (1071, 1701) was because at the time it was actually a significant cost factor for some reason to add another type of digit, they were mostly just rearranging the enterprises number. How that could be a factor and changing the name not.... I don't know but that's what I read.
Roddenberry's view ended at TNG Season 1. Besides, only one character has expressed his opinion of what Starfleet's mission was, Picard in Peak Performance. While others have expressed a preference to exploring rather than more militaristic missions, which is only natural. When I was in the service, not many actual soldiers wanted to go to war.
TOS, the movies, Later seasons of TNG, DS9, and VOY have all had stated that the defense of the Federation is Starfleet's primary goal. While, it is trying to be noble saying Starfleet is about exploration while destroying Borg cubes, Klingon ships, Cardassian warships, and Jem'hadar bugs.
^ So much this. Somewhere between TMP and TNG, Roddenberry seemed to be fixated on an anti-military slant. He nixed Franz Josephs designs (namely the dreadnought) that he had already approved of and gave us the utopian Federation and its captains that when confronted with an enemy that crossed a drawn line, drew another line. People like the Harve Bennet's who worked in Star Trek, kept the brand going despite Roddenberry's vision for a show where everyone was perfect (cue in the Lego movie themesong) in a perfect society, showing the surrounding societies how improper they were? Those first few seasons were a bit rough. Sadly, after Roddenberrys passing, the show got better because they were able to get the anti military monkey off its back.
Well they at some point in production decidet that the enterprise is the only ship having that a b c thing.
Which makes her and the Yamato (which had an e after her registry) the only ships.
And about the high numbers, keep in mind that small craft from a certain size on (including the ds9 runabouts) have unique registry numbers each.
The and the reason why the tos constitutions all had similar numbers (1071, 1701) was because at the time it was actually a significant cost factor for some reason to add another type of digit, they were mostly just rearranging the enterprises number. How that could be a factor and changing the name not.... I don't know but that's what I read.
They had a set of those numbers handy, why go through the extra effort when somethings already there. It just like the re-use of the Tholian web spinner ship in another episode (to which escapes me at this moment).
It is obvious that the Oddy is now obsolete & semi-defunct with or without an upgrade token.
The Oddy Sci is one of the top 4 ships for tanking in the game, at T5-U. I haven't upgraded it yet, and it still does just fine. The Oddy sci is also one of the federation's highest dps starships, see Jena for details. You, sir, are wrong.
SCM - Crystal C. (S) - [00:12] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 8.63M(713.16K) - Fed Sci
Every luxury liner is a cruiser so in your mind that makes it a military ship?
This is getting beyond ridiculous.
Keep cheering for your pro military jar jar trek while obviously having no idea what this show was about.
While i agree with your signature, you are arguing like a my step-daughter's pastor when I point out passages in the Bible that counter his. (ignoring the stuff that he doesn't like)
Not only luxury liners have been called cruisers, so have small little personal watercraft, automobiles, and airplanes. Cruisers is a very general term, but if you look into the context, the NX and TOS Enterprise has been referred as a battle cruiser by the Klingons and Yar even said that the Enterprise was a battleship (albiet in an alternate setting but that ship's firepower looked very similar to what the original universe's Enterprise could do) and that classification was used by an enemy agent, Kieran MacDuff based on her specifications.
So in context, the USS Merrimac was called a cruiser, the USS Entente was called a dreadnought, USS Centaur and the Saladin-class were destroyers, the New Orleans-class were frigates, and so on.
True, but I guess that this case would simply be a missing letter, and really should have been NCC-1017-A. Just like we had the NX-01 followed by the NCC-1701. Or the Defiant, which was NCC-1764 prior to being the NX-74205 and NCC-75633. A matter of simply
Or it was a renamed ship, like how the Yorktown became the Enterprise-A. Maybe even an older, pre-constitution ship that was retrofitted to be a constitution. Maybe even an old refit NX class.
And since they probably built the Connies in the same shipyard (logical thinking makes this easy, and I kinda began to consider Axanar canon, so yeah xD), I'd say the chances are pretty good the Enterprise truly was the second Constitution-class commisioned.
That, or Starfleet just sucks with numbering their ships. Which I also find very plausible, considering how we went in 100 years from NX-01 to NCC-1701 and then in another hundred years to NX-74205. As well as with the example of the Defiant above.
there is more then just the constellation. i was board and looked it up and found some interesting background information. in order form lowest registry to highest. all are official sources signed off by gene and on screen footage
USS Eagle (NCC-956)
USS Constellation (NCC-1017)
USS Republic (NCC-1371)
USS Intrepid (NCC-1631)
USS Potemkin (NCC-1659)
USS Excalibur (NCC-1664)
USS Exeter (NCC-1672)
USS Constitution (NCC_1700)
USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)
USS Hood (NCC-1703)
USS Lexington (NCC-1709)
USS Kongo (NCC-1710)
USS Merrimac (NCC-1715)
USS Defiant (NCC-1764)
now i like the idea they made in TOS as back groundis that the constitution was not the class leader but a sub type leader. the class was starship (according to the enterprises plaque) but the constitution was the first of the "MK-IX" sub class refits and they even changed some control panels on the ship to depict this. first time MK-IX was used was a ship registry list in court martial when they got to constitution in parenthesis they have MK-XI after it then they list the enterprise and rest of the ships with the same
While i agree with your signature, you are arguing like a my step-daughter's pastor when I point out passages in the Bible that counter his. (ignoring the stuff that he doesn't like)
Not only luxury liners have been called cruisers, so have small little personal watercraft, automobiles, and airplanes. Cruisers is a very general term, but if you look into the context, the NX and TOS Enterprise has been referred as a battle cruiser by the Klingons and Yar even said that the Enterprise was a battleship (albiet in an alternate setting but that ship's firepower looked very similar to what the original universe's Enterprise could do) and that classification was used by an enemy agent, Kieran MacDuff based on her specifications.
So in context, the USS Merrimac was called a cruiser, the USS Entente was called a dreadnought, USS Centaur and the Saladin-class were destroyers, the New Orleans-class were frigates, and so on.
Eld' I totally agree with you, it seems that he does act that way, as well as hurling insults and getting personal to those who disagree with him. I've seen it before, but hey it's his reality and we should just be happy to be living in it I guess. No probs' , no longer worth my time.
I'm with you on the cruisers. Its the context, I also believe that the term heavy cruiser has been thrown around in canon as well.
Comments
I hate to break it to you, but Starfleet was very much a military service in the 23rd Century. They carried on the naval traditions of the Navies of old Earth. They had full bird colonels. They had assault troops. And they followed military decorum and regulations.
It wasn't until Roddenberry decided in the first season of TNG that the fate of the Federation was to be left to a bunch of rent-a-cops in golden pajamas, carrying ergonomically nightmarish sidearms that looked like Black and Decker dust busters, that the whole Starfleet isn't a military organization TRIBBLE came into being. Basically a giant middle finger to Harve Bennett and his full-on militarized Starfleet of the movie era. No more saluting. No more standing at attention. No more respect for a chain of command. No more bos'ns or boatswain's calls. A drab, dull, poorly thought out organization that barely qualified as a defensive paramilitary force, much less an agency that was the primary, national armed force of the UFP. Which is what consisted of Starfleet's primary mission in addition to exploration.
Like I pointed out in an earlier post, TNG (as does STO) uses the term "flagship" very loosely and in a colloquial manner. It's more akin to the Corvette being Chevrolet's "flagship" model. Or a Playstation 4 being Sony's "flagship" brand. It was the latest and greatest, made to impress and show off the progress and technological prowess of the Federation.
Star Trek, as in real life naval arms, had actual flagships where Admirals (Flag Officers) ran operations (i.e. hosting the Admiral's "colors" or "flag"). Some examples included the U.S.S. Bellerophon used by Admiral Ross during the Romulan conference, or Admiral Hanson's flagship at Wolf 359.
Oh, on a side note, those of us who actually served in our respective nations' armed forces, are more than mere "aficionados".
Who says it's their primary mission?
Also ranks, ceremonies ect are a common thing in civilian fleets, too. Even a cruise liner has ranks and ceremonies.
Not to the degree that we see shown in Starfleet. Perhaps the American agency, NOAA, comes close to being a not-military organization with similar organizational practice, but NOAA was originally created out the US National Geodetic Survey Agency, in which that started out as a US Treasury Agency that operated with the US Navy to the point that the Navy took over operations during the 19th Century.
I think for example in the Tribble episode you see a bunch of people standing attention and getting into trouble for the bar fight they got into. The whole thing is only really fitting for some kind of (para)military organization. You wouldn't see that in a university, lab or or in typical (Western) corporate organization.
Is your knowledge based on the jar jar trek films alone?
Because in the series that's not how it works.
Starfleet obviously serves the military function, that's out of the question. But outside of the dominion war that was mostly secondary to exploration or diplomatic assignments, both things militaries do not do in that way.
That's mainly why I liked the MACOs in enterprise so much, it showed how much (that times) starfleet was NOT a military by putting actual military right next to them.
We have seen multiple times (TOS, movies, TNG) where the crew was diverted from thier function of exploration to matters of security of state. Its not like the Federatipn calls in a ship that isnt up to anythng but further away because a closer ship is doing stellar chartography, they make that ship drop the exploration duties and haul duff to the threat, and maybe send that other ship in as support.
Defense of the Federation is the priority for Starfleet, exploration is if situations permit. Most of the time a cruiser is in that area instead of an Oberth is a projection of strength. Other than extreme range exploration ( which the D rarely did) or dealing with threats, a smaller cheaper ship wouldve been just as effective and cost less resources. How many crew does it take to observe nebulae, transport medicine or a team of doctors, or similar tasks? I doubt 1,000.
Exploration is a big goal, but not the primary driver.
As far as the MACOs go, where was the military's warships? Fighter craft? No matter what Reid and Trip say, the differencebetween MACOs and security teams is Special Forces/Marines and MP/Sp/AP's.
Funny the opposite has been stated about every second episode.
Also if starfleet is primary a military force, why didn't they build any warships (before the defiante came arround)?
Again they clearly have the task of deffense, and since there doesn't seem to be an actual military they obviously are the ones to react to threads.
But that does not make it their primary function.
And, as angrytarg said: it doesn't need to compare to the way we today see "military" work. Star Trek (not counting Iin ent) takes place between 200 and 400 years in the future.
200 - 400 years in the past military here worked entirely different, too. The federation has simply given up the concept of a pure defense organisation.
The Defiant was Starfleet's first ship built SOLELY for combat. That does not mean that Stafleet's other ships cannot be competitive in war. The GCS was not designed as a pure warship, but she could sure as hell be one.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
Actually NCC-1701 was referred to as the flagship of the fleet at least once. It was either in the season 1 TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" or in "The Alternative Factor"...possibly both.
Actually it was definitely military from its inception. Go back and watch the season 1 TOS episode "A Taste of Armageddon". There was even general order 24, which ordered Scotty to attack and annihilate all cities on the surface of the planet.
The vaunted and precious "prime directive" did not even appear until TOS season 2.
yeah but then there is the constellation that is NCC-1017......
I do not regularly fly my starship into the galactic disco, but when I do... it will be the Ent G.
Finally, an entire away team in club-wear! It is only logical.
I say let them argue, it is there time to waste.
both Micheal Okuda and Rick Sternbach were tech consultants to TNG
from memory Alpha..
Michael "Mike" Hideo Okuda (on occasion affectionately called Mikey O by his close co-workers), hailing from Tokyo, Japan but raised in Honolulu, Hawaii, has been the scenic art supervisor for every live-action Star Trek production, set in the prime universe, excepting the original production of The Original Series and the first three Star Trek films. The fourth one, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, was actually Okuda's very first recorded motion picture industry credit and he thereby followed in the footsteps of Lee Cole, who as graphics designer had performed the same duties for the first two Star Trek films. As the art supervisor, heading Star Trek's Scenic Art Department during the entire run of the franchise from Star Trek: The Next Generation onward, he has been responsible for such things as the look of alien languages, computer screens, graphic detailing and perhaps even the look of the exotic artifacts Jean-Luc Picard has collected.
Okuda was honored by SkyBox International with an individual card entry, no. 04, in their 1993 specialty Star Trek: The Next Generation - Behind the Scenes trading card set.
Together with Rick Sternbach, he served as a technical consultant to the script staff, maintaining technical and chronological continuity and inventing scientific terms and technobabble, resulting in a number of internal "technical manuals". He is a co-author of the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, which resulted from the internal documents, the Star Trek Chronology, and the Star Trek Encyclopedia. Though never having taken a class in calculus in his life (being a graduate of the University of Hawaii-Manoa notwithstanding), Okuda is responsible for designing the logarithmic warp scale used in Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Your knowledge is obviously based off of not watching the series. Besides Federation Starfleet is a different entity from Earth Starfleet. Earth Starfleet would be the future NOAA (but armed), but after Season 3, we see Starfleet become what was seen on the other shows, primarily charged with the defense of Earth and eventually the Federation.
It would have been nice to see MACO-crewed Earth ships to at least help differentiate that Earth Starfleet was an exploratory agency rather than the only one in space besides the Earth Cargo Service.
Starfleet has always been a military, but most of us got influenced by Picard's view or maybe it was his dreamy eyes. By the time of Nemesis, Picard's stance has changed since he listed battlefield commander as one of his accomplishments.
MEIN EYES!!! Club Wear for starships!
The Defiante could not even be labeled warship. It was "inofficialy" a war ship and "officially" an escort because building warship is/was against starfleets policy.
I certainly watched the show.
You seem to be so arrogant to believe to know it better then the characters in the show. If they explicitly say they are not a military the "romanticize". Of course...
We did not get influenced by Picards view but but gene Roddenberrys view. That might not be realistic but it is simply the base for Star Trek.
Star Wars is not, neither is Abrahams.
Roddenberry's view ended at TNG Season 1. Besides, only one character has expressed his opinion of what Starfleet's mission was, Picard in Peak Performance. While others have expressed a preference to exploring rather than more militaristic missions, which is only natural. When I was in the service, not many actual soldiers wanted to go to war.
TOS, the movies, Later seasons of TNG, DS9, and VOY have all had stated that the defense of the Federation is Starfleet's primary goal. While, it is trying to be noble saying Starfleet is about exploration while destroying Borg cubes, Klingon ships, Cardassian warships, and Jem'hadar bugs.
They have plenty of cruisers, and cruisers are (even if the Fed's disdain the term, warships, more on the use of terms) a warship. They design their cruisers to be able to fight against attackers (Klinks, Rommies, yes they have labs and such, but the ability to match their opponent is a key consideration in design.
You act like today's militaries are pure defense org's, how much humanitarian operations and scientific research is the U.S. military involved in? Quite a bit. NOAA, NASA, State Dept., and the CIA, all civilian orgs', have a great deal of contribution by the military.
It's funny that you mentioned differences in time, I was going to mention it myself. Since the end of WWII, and over the last 60 years, the use of "political correctness" has been used to try to shape the minds of people for the users benefit, it's on the lines of George Carlins comparison of Baseball and Football:
-People were war weary, so the Korean and Vietnam Wars were called "Police Actions" (ask anyone who fought in them if they felt like they were in anything less than a war)
-The term "military" has been all but replaced with "Armed Forces", because its more sanitized
-Terrorist attacks are called "Manmade disasters", or "workplace violence"
-The (Global) War on Terror has now been replaced with "Overseas Contingency Operations"
and thats just a few military related terms.
Do I think in 200-300 years that the Federation will be so PC as claim that Starfleets job primary is "exploration" and not defense, and Starfleet personel will consider themselves explorers and shy away from using soldier, spacers, etc. ? Sure, by what we see in the show, exploration is romanticized and almost necessary to keep appearances of the UFP being the utopia that they claim it is. Of course during peace, there is a ton of room exploration, (after the defense of the state is ensured) there's a lot of space between systems that can be observed while on patrol. And Starfleet sure isn't the police dept. when its ships have offensive capable vessels and can arm every person on their ships to the teeth if need be.
There are also Federation ships that have the NAR (not NCC) registry, like the Raven and the Vico that were pure science/exploration ships that would be able to handle typical science missions and cost a lot less to do it than a cruiser.
I see it this way, the most critical aspect of ship deployment has to be defense, because while the Feds don't call themselves a military, other empires/races/etc do. The Federation has to use Starfleet as a deterrent for it to stay alive and credible. If they don't have adequate defenses, the other guys would have incursions and take territory, forcing the Federation to cede territory, or spend more resources to take it back (or risk losing member states and not gain new ones) than having. We know ships are assigned to key systems (like Earth), are they exploring, or defending.
Once the proper amount of ships have been set for defense, then they can safely assign exploration missions for ships, but not before the state is properly protected. If they were exploration primary, the defense of the state would almost be more by accident than anything else.
True, but I guess that this case would simply be a missing letter, and really should have been NCC-1017-A. Just like we had the NX-01 followed by the NCC-1701. Or the Defiant, which was NCC-1764 prior to being the NX-74205 and NCC-75633. A matter of simply
Or it was a renamed ship, like how the Yorktown became the Enterprise-A. Maybe even an older, pre-constitution ship that was retrofitted to be a constitution. Maybe even an old refit NX class.
And since they probably built the Connies in the same shipyard (logical thinking makes this easy, and I kinda began to consider Axanar canon, so yeah xD), I'd say the chances are pretty good the Enterprise truly was the second Constitution-class commisioned.
That, or Starfleet just sucks with numbering their ships. Which I also find very plausible, considering how we went in 100 years from NX-01 to NCC-1701 and then in another hundred years to NX-74205. As well as with the example of the Defiant above.
Also, I vote the new Enterprise to be the Picard Class. As seen in this footage.
Join the Deltas today!
Well they at some point in production decidet that the enterprise is the only ship having that a b c thing.
Which makes her and the Yamato (which had an e after her registry) the only ships.
And about the high numbers, keep in mind that small craft from a certain size on (including the ds9 runabouts) have unique registry numbers each.
The and the reason why the tos constitutions all had similar numbers (1071, 1701) was because at the time it was actually a significant cost factor for some reason to add another type of digit, they were mostly just rearranging the enterprises number. How that could be a factor and changing the name not.... I don't know but that's what I read.
^ So much this. Somewhere between TMP and TNG, Roddenberry seemed to be fixated on an anti-military slant. He nixed Franz Josephs designs (namely the dreadnought) that he had already approved of and gave us the utopian Federation and its captains that when confronted with an enemy that crossed a drawn line, drew another line. People like the Harve Bennet's who worked in Star Trek, kept the brand going despite Roddenberry's vision for a show where everyone was perfect (cue in the Lego movie themesong) in a perfect society, showing the surrounding societies how improper they were? Those first few seasons were a bit rough. Sadly, after Roddenberrys passing, the show got better because they were able to get the anti military monkey off its back.
They had a set of those numbers handy, why go through the extra effort when somethings already there. It just like the re-use of the Tholian web spinner ship in another episode (to which escapes me at this moment).
The Oddy Sci is one of the top 4 ships for tanking in the game, at T5-U. I haven't upgraded it yet, and it still does just fine. The Oddy sci is also one of the federation's highest dps starships, see Jena for details. You, sir, are wrong.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
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This is getting beyond ridiculous.
Keep cheering for your pro military jar jar trek while obviously having no idea what this show was about.
While i agree with your signature, you are arguing like a my step-daughter's pastor when I point out passages in the Bible that counter his. (ignoring the stuff that he doesn't like)
Not only luxury liners have been called cruisers, so have small little personal watercraft, automobiles, and airplanes. Cruisers is a very general term, but if you look into the context, the NX and TOS Enterprise has been referred as a battle cruiser by the Klingons and Yar even said that the Enterprise was a battleship (albiet in an alternate setting but that ship's firepower looked very similar to what the original universe's Enterprise could do) and that classification was used by an enemy agent, Kieran MacDuff based on her specifications.
So in context, the USS Merrimac was called a cruiser, the USS Entente was called a dreadnought, USS Centaur and the Saladin-class were destroyers, the New Orleans-class were frigates, and so on.
there is more then just the constellation. i was board and looked it up and found some interesting background information. in order form lowest registry to highest. all are official sources signed off by gene and on screen footage
USS Eagle (NCC-956)
USS Constellation (NCC-1017)
USS Republic (NCC-1371)
USS Intrepid (NCC-1631)
USS Potemkin (NCC-1659)
USS Excalibur (NCC-1664)
USS Exeter (NCC-1672)
USS Constitution (NCC_1700)
USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)
USS Hood (NCC-1703)
USS Lexington (NCC-1709)
USS Kongo (NCC-1710)
USS Merrimac (NCC-1715)
USS Defiant (NCC-1764)
now i like the idea they made in TOS as back groundis that the constitution was not the class leader but a sub type leader. the class was starship (according to the enterprises plaque) but the constitution was the first of the "MK-IX" sub class refits and they even changed some control panels on the ship to depict this. first time MK-IX was used was a ship registry list in court martial when they got to constitution in parenthesis they have MK-XI after it then they list the enterprise and rest of the ships with the same
Eld' I totally agree with you, it seems that he does act that way, as well as hurling insults and getting personal to those who disagree with him. I've seen it before, but hey it's his reality and we should just be happy to be living in it I guess.
I'm with you on the cruisers. Its the context, I also believe that the term heavy cruiser has been thrown around in canon as well.