This entire comment was so disgusting that I feel compelled to quote it just to immortalize its towering insensitivity. The Kobali repeatedly treat the consent of their "children" as optional. This. Is. Wrong.
Let me just rephrase that for you.
Your central problem is that the Kobali are repeatedly shown to be lying, abusive scumbags. Q'Nel repeatedly lies to the PC, who is by this point in all likelihood a full Admiral or Fleet Admiral, and an Ambassador as well. As such, lying repeatedly and refusing to comply with Alliance demands despite repeated complaints by the PC in mission dialogue is a treaty violation at the bare minimum.
Also, your moral relativism is hypocritical and disgusting. The culture of the Kazon considers women to be nothing but low-value slaves. Should we be OK with that? A bunch of American states once seceded because their culture didn't see the problem with owning slaves. Should we have just let the Confederacy be?
Stop trying to look smarter than you are, please.
First off, even if you disagree with me, there's no reason to be as insulting...
Second, we both know that's hyperbole; they're not 100% lying. In my experience through the storyline, out and in of Kobali Prime, it's more 75% truth, and the other ratio includes their dark secrets. Yes, I legitly think that is so, and several replays haven't changed that. And 'abusive' is only if you view their rebirth as disgusting in the first place (as I'm sure you've gathered, I do not particularly think it is so)
Third, I'm not saying that stating opinions against the Kobali is a bad thing, but it can only be taken so far. After all, it's their way of life; even if the entire Federation/KDF/RR came down on them for it, it isn't gonna change overnight; we have to accept that too. Or in other words, looking at it from all angles before you make the decision of saying it's wrong. And even then, saying it's wrong is only an opinion, but not a fact. It doesn't mean it's wrong for me, or anyone else by default
^That's all
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
First off, even if you disagree with me, there's no reason to be as insulting...
Second, we both know that's hyperbole; they're not 100% lying. In my experience through the storyline, out and in of Kobali Prime, it's more 75% truth, and the other ratio includes their dark secrets. Yes, I legitly think that is so, and several replays haven't changed that. And 'abusive' is only if you view their rebirth as disgusting in the first place (as I'm sure you've gathered, I do not particularly think it is so)
Third, I'm not saying that stating opinions against the Kobali is a bad thing, but it can only be taken so far. After all, it's their way of life; even if the entire Federation/KDF/RR came down on them for it, it isn't gonna change overnight; we have to accept that too. Or in other words, looking at it from all angles before you make the decision of saying it's wrong. And even then, saying it's wrong is only an opinion, but not a fact. It doesn't mean it's wrong for me, or anyone else by default
^That's all
When the Confederacy said that their economy would collapse without slavery, it was pretty much entirely true.
That doesn't make slavery a good thing.
When the Kobali say that they need corpses to reproduce, that's true. That doesn't mean that it's OK to do it without those people's consent.
Your moral relativism and hypocrisy continue to be sickening.
What's wrong with starswordc looking rational, and intelligent, with a healthy dose of common sense?
...you do realize that this is General Discussion, AKA STO General Troll, right? Where the sanest people are frequently Dental trolls? Where the benchmark for rationality is conspiratorial rantings about the devs' secret evil plan to nerf the game under our noses?
When the Confederacy said that their economy would collapse without slavery, it was pretty much entirely true.
That doesn't make slavery a good thing.
When the Kobali say that they need corpses to reproduce, that's true. That doesn't mean that it's OK to do it without those people's consent.
Your moral relativism and hypocrisy continue to be sickening.
I'm just saying, we have to understand their point-of-view before we curse it out - it doesn't mean I'm advocating letting them off the hook (not at all), or that opinions mean nothing just because we don't agree with them
How is that hypocritical? It's a bad way to look at things imo, instinctively understanding all we can before we judge them, or anyone. And if I'm not mistaken, that view isn't moral relativism per se, so much as an unusual amount of empathy and open-mindedness - is it not?
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
TRIBBLE that. I'd rather they never used the kobali ever. They were ramming the kobali morality down our throats for half the DR "content"... I don't care to see them ever again, or their ships.
I know, right? At least the story ended with "We'll only do it to people who agree to it now" but I mean, what about the last several centuries? Or longer? Goshdarned corpse ***ists.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
I'd rather have the Kazon as a playable faction than the Kobali, and if you know me at all, that's saying something: I consider the Kazon an embarrassment to sentient life.
Kazon faction can start you off as a prisoner of your fellow Kazon. After you heroically escape the brig by crossing the imaginary line on the floor you were told not to, and then locking out bridge controls, you defeat the buffoon guarding you and make your way to the bridge. You get into a huge firefight there, and manage to win, though you are injured. As you set course for a rival sect to make a deal with them, your bumbling hacking of the computer earlier has led to a mathematical error in the navigation systems. To top it off, you got some extra dirt and sweat into the console, shorting it out. The ship careens into the nearest star as you haphazardly try to defeat your own lockout of the computer.
The end.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
I'm just saying, we have to understand their point-of-view before we curse it out - it doesn't mean I'm advocating letting them off the hook (not at all), or that opinions mean nothing just because we don't agree with them
How is that hypocritical? It's a bad way to look at things imo, instinctively understanding all we can before we judge them, or anyone. And if I'm not mistaken, that view isn't moral relativism per se, so much as an unusual amount of empathy and open-mindedness - is it not?
There is a difference between understanding and moral relativism, Mr. Passive-Aggressive.
What you are doing is advocating moral relativism. Just because the Kobali are used to doing something and it's ingrained in their current culture does NOT make it right.
Slavery was A-OK in the Confederacy, after all.
Maybe you should rewatch "Ashes to Ashes" again. Lyndsay Ballard's Kobali "father" is a textbook abusive parent, refusing to accept her identity and outright attacking her with the assistance of other Kobali when she expresses her desire to stay on Voyager.
And that's considered a routine thing in Kobali society. That's evil. There is no other way to describe or understand it.
I was playing dust to dust and I realised that there has been a lot of focus on the kobali in the new story arcs and with the new adventure zone, update logs, uniforms and ships we could be seeing a kobali playable faction, which would be really cool!
It is just a theroy though.
no thank you I'd rather see the delta alliance races added to the existing factions.
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
What's wrong with starswordc looking rational, and intelligent, with a healthy dose of common sense?
While I believe starswordc is a little over the top in his arguments against a Kobali playable faction, I agree it's never going to happen. Even more so now that they're thinking of adding Kobali heads to aliengen.
My issue is, no matter how right someone is, personal attacks will ruin any credibility that person has. There was no need to call trek21 a "rambling idiot."
My issue is, no matter how right someone is, personal attacks will ruin any credibility that person has. There was no need to call trek21 a "rambling idiot."
Yes. Yes there was.
Don't forget that this is STO General Troll, where reason and rationality go to be sacrificed at the twin alters of the DPS meta and anti-DPS ragers.
There is a difference between understanding and moral relativism, Mr. Passive-Aggressive.
What you are doing is advocating moral relativism. Just because the Kobali are used to doing something and it's ingrained in their current culture does NOT make it right.
Slavery was A-OK in the Confederacy, after all.
Maybe you should rewatch "Ashes to Ashes" again. Lyndsay Ballard's Kobali "father" is a textbook abusive parent, refusing to accept her identity and outright attacking her with the assistance of other Kobali when she expresses her desire to stay on Voyager.
And that's considered a routine thing in Kobali society. That's evil. There is no other way to describe or understand it.
This this this.
♪ I'm going around not in circles but in spirographs.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Don't forget that this is STO General Troll, where reason and rationality go to be sacrificed at the twin alters of the DPS meta and anti-DPS ragers.
Actually, he's still right in that personal attacks don't add to a point, only take away from it
And no, my point is not moral relativism, that opinions don't mean anything because they are opinions, or that something is wrong for us = not wrong period for others. It is simply my opinion that we empathize with other points-of-view, understand them, and other such stuff first. Then after that is accomplished, make our judgements, not before - it does not mean I was advocating the Kobali way of life; just that I understood it, and that personally, I don't think it's as bad as you think it is. And that's were our opinions lay
You think they're evil, but also insist that that's the only way they should be understood or treated. I don't agree, simple as that
Besides, even in-story, people are pointing out the Kobali's errors as professionally as they can, but it doesn't mean they'll change overnight.
So can you drop the hostility? Keep this without name-calling or remarks like 'disgusting'?
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Actually, he's still right in that personal attacks don't add to a point, only take away from it
And no, my point is not moral relativism, that opinions don't mean anything because they are opinions, or that something is wrong for us = not wrong period for others. It is simply my opinion that we empathize with other points-of-view, understand them, and other such stuff first. Then after that is accomplished, make our judgements, not before - it does not mean I was advocating the Kobali way of life; just that I understood it, and that personally, I don't think it's as bad as you think it is. And that's were our opinions lay
You think they're evil, but also insist that that's the only way they should be understood or treated. I don't agree, simple as that
Besides, even in-story, people are pointing out the Kobali's errors as professionally as they can, but it doesn't mean they'll change overnight.
So can you drop the hostility? Keep this without name-calling or remarks like 'disgusting'?
Not unless you drop the moral relativism BS (which you ARE doing; there's a difference between understanding someone's viewpoint, and treating a massive violation of sentient rights as just a cultural thing). Because it is disgusting, since every single thing you've said so far has been in favor of the Kobali's supposed right to violate other people's cultural precepts and sentient rights in the name of their culture.
And that isn't right.
The Kobali's cultural rights end where other people's cultural rights begin, and WELL before other people's sentient rights. Even leaving aside the killing-Vaadwaur-in-stasis bit, rebirthing someone without their consent is major nonconsensual body and brain alteration, which violates so many sentient rights it isn't even funny.
You and your comments have been and continue to be disgusting. I see no reason not to keep calling you out on your moral relativism and other BS.
Not unless you drop the moral relativism BS (which you ARE doing; there's a difference between understanding someone's viewpoint, and treating a massive violation of sentient rights as just a cultural thing). Because it is disgusting, since every single thing you've said so far has been in favor of the Kobali's supposed right to violate other people's cultural precepts and sentient rights in the name of their culture.
And that isn't right.
The Kobali's cultural rights end where other people's cultural rights begin, and WELL before other people's sentient rights. Even leaving aside the killing-Vaadwaur-in-stasis bit, rebirthing someone without their consent is major nonconsensual body and brain alteration, which violates so many sentient rights it isn't even funny.
You and your comments have been and continue to be disgusting. I see no reason not to keep calling you out on your moral relativism and other BS.
But there's nothing that gives you the right to be hostile or insulting, even if you don't agree with me as is your opinion + right, and I don't want to get you in trouble on these forums
So I'm just asking you tone it down before something crosses a line - and no, stating our opinions as we have hasn't yet, not so far as the rules
And edit, my personal feelings about the Kobali? That their rebirth process is a little creepy, and that ultimately, I wouldn't want them doing it. But since I don't let my feelings decide what I think about them objectively, that's why I've said what I have - it doesn't mean I like their ways or that I don't think something that's a violation isn't a violation. And when in discussion about something, I prefer the objectively-only side of things, but that's just me
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
But there's nothing that gives you the right to be hostile or insulting, even if you don't agree with me as is your opinion + right, and I don't want to get you in trouble on these forums
Thank you for the passive-aggressiveness.
As long as I am within TOS (which I have been and strive to be scrupulously), I have every right and responsibility to call you out for massive hypocrisy and odious moral relativism.
And edit, my personal feelings about the Kobali? That their rebirth process is a little creepy, and that ultimately, I wouldn't want them doing it. But since I don't let my feelings decide what I think about them objectively, that's why I've said what I have - it doesn't mean I like their ways or that I don't think something that's a violation isn't a violation. And when in discussion about something, I prefer the objectively-only side of things, but that's just me
Wow. So you're OK with the Confederates keeping slaves even though that's creepy and evil?
OK. Nice. Good to know that you're confusing objectivity with "oh, whatever the whiny liars want".
Wow. So you're OK with the Confederates keeping slaves even though that's creepy and evil?
OK. Nice. Good to know that you're confusing objectivity with "oh, whatever the whiny liars want".
You continue to make me physically ill.
Did I say I was okay with them? No, I did not - feelings-wise, I don't like the Kobali. Objectively, I understand them, but that does not equal 'I'm okay with it'. I simply don't let my feelings interfere with my objectivity. That's how simple it is
Anyway, seeing how you obviously see me, I'm done, to make sure that neither of us cross that line. Agree-to-disagree in effect, please
Was named Trek17.
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Did I say I was okay with them? No, I did not - feelings-wise, I don't like the Kobali. Objectively, I understand them, but that does not equal 'I'm okay with it'. I simply don't let my feelings interfere with my objectivity. That's how simple it is
Anyway, seeing how you obviously see me, I'm done, to make sure that neither of us cross that line. Agree-to-disagree in effect, please
You're beyond foolishness now. You have REPEATEDLY claimed that the Kobali are "good in their souls".
The Kobali have repeatedly committed war crimes and crimes against sentient life. Just because their culture is OK with that does NOT mean that it is absolutely OK or that the Federation is somehow obligated to assist them against the Vaadwaur, who are at least honest (as opposed to the Kobali, who are so addicted to lying that not one single thing that any Kobali has said can be believed without outside evidence).
Essentially, your hypocritical moral relativism, pseudo-intellectualism, and arrogant passive-aggressiveness have removed any credibility that you could possibly have had. On top of that, you are supporting the defense of a society that accepts violations of sentient rights on the same level as the Confederacy.
Thank you for leaving. Please don't let the door hit you on the rear on the way out.
It's always strange how we still tend to apply human morals to aliens; especially when in the aliens' case, their means of species survival is reviving and altering the dead.
Makes me wonder what other aliens would think if they applied their own morals to humans. Such do the older Kobali secretly look down on us because they think our means of reproducing is vile?
Do humans secretly look down on Andorian mating rituals? Do Andorians secretly think humans should have their means of procreation?
I find this debate interesting, if only because it emphasizes just how xenophobic humanity still is. We already have a tough time embracing cultures not our own (much less religious differences), so meeting a sentient lifeform with a drastically different means of survival would be complete anethema.
It's always strange how we still tend to apply human morals to aliens
In the same way we apply regional and national morels to other humans, some things are just wrong, I would say mindraping resurrected corpses is probably a universal wrong.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Comments
Second, we both know that's hyperbole; they're not 100% lying. In my experience through the storyline, out and in of Kobali Prime, it's more 75% truth, and the other ratio includes their dark secrets. Yes, I legitly think that is so, and several replays haven't changed that. And 'abusive' is only if you view their rebirth as disgusting in the first place (as I'm sure you've gathered, I do not particularly think it is so)
Third, I'm not saying that stating opinions against the Kobali is a bad thing, but it can only be taken so far. After all, it's their way of life; even if the entire Federation/KDF/RR came down on them for it, it isn't gonna change overnight; we have to accept that too. Or in other words, looking at it from all angles before you make the decision of saying it's wrong. And even then, saying it's wrong is only an opinion, but not a fact. It doesn't mean it's wrong for me, or anyone else by default
^That's all
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
When the Confederacy said that their economy would collapse without slavery, it was pretty much entirely true.
That doesn't make slavery a good thing.
When the Kobali say that they need corpses to reproduce, that's true. That doesn't mean that it's OK to do it without those people's consent.
Your moral relativism and hypocrisy continue to be sickening.
...you do realize that this is General Discussion, AKA STO General Troll, right? Where the sanest people are frequently Dental trolls? Where the benchmark for rationality is conspiratorial rantings about the devs' secret evil plan to nerf the game under our noses?
How is that hypocritical? It's a bad way to look at things imo, instinctively understanding all we can before we judge them, or anyone. And if I'm not mistaken, that view isn't moral relativism per se, so much as an unusual amount of empathy and open-mindedness - is it not?
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
I know, right? At least the story ended with "We'll only do it to people who agree to it now" but I mean, what about the last several centuries? Or longer? Goshdarned corpse ***ists.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
Kazon faction can start you off as a prisoner of your fellow Kazon. After you heroically escape the brig by crossing the imaginary line on the floor you were told not to, and then locking out bridge controls, you defeat the buffoon guarding you and make your way to the bridge. You get into a huge firefight there, and manage to win, though you are injured. As you set course for a rival sect to make a deal with them, your bumbling hacking of the computer earlier has led to a mathematical error in the navigation systems. To top it off, you got some extra dirt and sweat into the console, shorting it out. The ship careens into the nearest star as you haphazardly try to defeat your own lockout of the computer.
The end.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
There is a difference between understanding and moral relativism, Mr. Passive-Aggressive.
What you are doing is advocating moral relativism. Just because the Kobali are used to doing something and it's ingrained in their current culture does NOT make it right.
Slavery was A-OK in the Confederacy, after all.
Maybe you should rewatch "Ashes to Ashes" again. Lyndsay Ballard's Kobali "father" is a textbook abusive parent, refusing to accept her identity and outright attacking her with the assistance of other Kobali when she expresses her desire to stay on Voyager.
And that's considered a routine thing in Kobali society. That's evil. There is no other way to describe or understand it.
no thank you I'd rather see the delta alliance races added to the existing factions.
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
While I believe starswordc is a little over the top in his arguments against a Kobali playable faction, I agree it's never going to happen. Even more so now that they're thinking of adding Kobali heads to aliengen.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=22172121&postcount=1078
My issue is, no matter how right someone is, personal attacks will ruin any credibility that person has. There was no need to call trek21 a "rambling idiot."
Yes. Yes there was.
Don't forget that this is STO General Troll, where reason and rationality go to be sacrificed at the twin alters of the DPS meta and anti-DPS ragers.
This this this.
It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
And no, my point is not moral relativism, that opinions don't mean anything because they are opinions, or that something is wrong for us = not wrong period for others. It is simply my opinion that we empathize with other points-of-view, understand them, and other such stuff first. Then after that is accomplished, make our judgements, not before - it does not mean I was advocating the Kobali way of life; just that I understood it, and that personally, I don't think it's as bad as you think it is. And that's were our opinions lay
You think they're evil, but also insist that that's the only way they should be understood or treated. I don't agree, simple as that
Besides, even in-story, people are pointing out the Kobali's errors as professionally as they can, but it doesn't mean they'll change overnight.
So can you drop the hostility? Keep this without name-calling or remarks like 'disgusting'?
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
Not unless you drop the moral relativism BS (which you ARE doing; there's a difference between understanding someone's viewpoint, and treating a massive violation of sentient rights as just a cultural thing). Because it is disgusting, since every single thing you've said so far has been in favor of the Kobali's supposed right to violate other people's cultural precepts and sentient rights in the name of their culture.
And that isn't right.
The Kobali's cultural rights end where other people's cultural rights begin, and WELL before other people's sentient rights. Even leaving aside the killing-Vaadwaur-in-stasis bit, rebirthing someone without their consent is major nonconsensual body and brain alteration, which violates so many sentient rights it isn't even funny.
You and your comments have been and continue to be disgusting. I see no reason not to keep calling you out on your moral relativism and other BS.
"Let them eat static!"
So I'm just asking you tone it down before something crosses a line - and no, stating our opinions as we have hasn't yet, not so far as the rules
And edit, my personal feelings about the Kobali? That their rebirth process is a little creepy, and that ultimately, I wouldn't want them doing it. But since I don't let my feelings decide what I think about them objectively, that's why I've said what I have - it doesn't mean I like their ways or that I don't think something that's a violation isn't a violation. And when in discussion about something, I prefer the objectively-only side of things, but that's just me
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
As long as I am within TOS (which I have been and strive to be scrupulously), I have every right and responsibility to call you out for massive hypocrisy and odious moral relativism.
Wow. So you're OK with the Confederates keeping slaves even though that's creepy and evil?
OK. Nice. Good to know that you're confusing objectivity with "oh, whatever the whiny liars want".
You continue to make me physically ill.
Anyway, seeing how you obviously see me, I'm done, to make sure that neither of us cross that line. Agree-to-disagree in effect, please
Been playing STO since Open Beta, and have never regarded anything as worse than 'meh', if only due to personal standards.
You're beyond foolishness now. You have REPEATEDLY claimed that the Kobali are "good in their souls".
The Kobali have repeatedly committed war crimes and crimes against sentient life. Just because their culture is OK with that does NOT mean that it is absolutely OK or that the Federation is somehow obligated to assist them against the Vaadwaur, who are at least honest (as opposed to the Kobali, who are so addicted to lying that not one single thing that any Kobali has said can be believed without outside evidence).
Essentially, your hypocritical moral relativism, pseudo-intellectualism, and arrogant passive-aggressiveness have removed any credibility that you could possibly have had. On top of that, you are supporting the defense of a society that accepts violations of sentient rights on the same level as the Confederacy.
Thank you for leaving. Please don't let the door hit you on the rear on the way out.
Makes me wonder what other aliens would think if they applied their own morals to humans. Such do the older Kobali secretly look down on us because they think our means of reproducing is vile?
Do humans secretly look down on Andorian mating rituals? Do Andorians secretly think humans should have their means of procreation?
I find this debate interesting, if only because it emphasizes just how xenophobic humanity still is. We already have a tough time embracing cultures not our own (much less religious differences), so meeting a sentient lifeform with a drastically different means of survival would be complete anethema.
In the same way we apply regional and national morels to other humans, some things are just wrong, I would say mindraping resurrected corpses is probably a universal wrong.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!