Please don't turn skills into trees

wardcalis · February 2015

Part of me likes the idea, I kinda grew up with talent calculators from other games, but the truth of trees is that inevitably there will be a required skill that must be taken that someone won't want to reach something they do want. I dunno about others but that type of waste is something I personally hate. It's bad enough were forced to spend points in ground in our current setup at all in my opinion, I never do ground content if I can avoid it. I just did Dust to Dust on all my toons and found 3 of my level 40+ people still had the mk1 personal shield, armor and weapon they started with. I love the level of customization STO has and I'd hate to have a system replaced that reduces it. Do any others of you agree?

sheldonlcooper · February 2015

I posted at length about this yesterday. In summary - it's probably a forgone conclusion.

wazzagiow · February 2015

not saying this is always the case but geko has built an observational reputation with me. as if he likes an idea it will happen regardless of what others think. if other people like or want something and he don't. it will never happen, not even if it was cannon.

so brace for impact

futurepastnow · February 2015

I agree. I don't want a 1-50 skill system that mimics the spec system. The only fundamental problem with the current skill system is that it's not always clear how much skills affect anything.

mhirtesc · February 2015

Ugggh! Another f'ing tree to contend with.

It's like Geko's final F U to the player base.

sheldonlcooper · February 2015

many new players are lost in the exploration clusters trying to fill out their skill trees!

sf911 · February 2015

Has there been any official confirmation of a skill system revamp? Is it coming out with season 10? Did I miss something?

I quite like the current system.

I would rather have a new adventure zone and new missions...not another new system to try and figure out. That's at least my point of view.

rodentmaster · February 2015

I think making the current spec points into a limited selection skill tree is a TERRIBLE idea. It will kill off another chunk of what's left of this lobotomized game.

mustrumridcully0 · February 2015

sf911 wrote: »

Has there been any official confirmation of a skill system revamp? Is it coming out with season 10? Did I miss something?

I quite like the current system.

I would rather have a new adventure zone and new missions...not another new system to try and figure out. That's at least my point of view.

There is a pretty much solid confirmation that this is something the developer team wants to do. But it will most likely still take a long time to come to fruition. Most likely not Season 10 material.

I think replacing the skill tree is a good idea. It seems pretty meh to me. It's just add an abstract number to another number and get a vaguely defined effect that may or may not be notable. In cases where it is notable, it's often also mandatory.

Of course, doesn't mean that what will be made to replace it will feel better. We'll see.

dragnridr · February 2015

Why not just get rid of the entire game and replace it with something Gecko likes to play......Oh...Damn......it's already happened.

If the Captain's skills are getting turned into a tree, then STO won't make it past the year.

drsanity · February 2015

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

There is a pretty much solid confirmation that this is something the developer team wants to do. But it will most likely still take a long time to come to fruition. Most likely not Season 10 material.

I think replacing the skill tree is a good idea. It seems pretty meh to me. It's just add an abstract number to another number and get a vaguely defined effect that may or may not be notable. In cases where it is notable, it's often also mandatory.

Of course, doesn't mean that what will be made to replace it will feel better. We'll see.

Mustrum,

Not like you to use qualifiers like 'pretty much' in the same line as confirmation.

What's the source for that? I haven't been able to locate it, but if it was a statement in a pod cast (and not written) that would likely be why?

Just looking for where the origin point of the information is if you know off hand.

sunfrancks · February 2015

It seems to be an industry wide thing in the works.

TOR has recently gone into a fixed tree system, my GW2 is heading that way, as well...

I don't think making the game easier to play is necessarily a bad thing, but dumbing it down and removing potential choice from the genre, is removing one of the main reasons why they are played in the first place..

thatcursedwolf · February 2015

sunfrancks wrote: »

It seems to be an industry wide thing in the works.

TOR has recently gone into a fixed tree system, my GW2 is heading that way, as well...

I don't think making the game easier to play is necessarily a bad thing, but dumbing it down and removing potential choice from the genre, is removing one of the main reasons why they are played in the first place..

There's not all that much for good choices.

If you're new to STO, there are too many choices and far too little information. You can't just spend EC to undo those choices.

If you know what you're doing it's either no points or how many points it takes to hit a critical breakpoint. Wooo! Exciting!

taylor1701d · February 2015

That why many longtime Diablo2 fans rejected Diablo3.
The core of D2 was skill tree point distribution. It made things interesting, you had more options.
With Diablo3 you felt "Locked in" to the class you were playing.
You gained skills through level advancement, and there was very little choice left to the players.
And as always people ended up gravitating towards the same class skills, as there are always "best to use" skills in these scenarios.
So it made the game boring, for me at least. (I was not the only one, the forums were raging about it on release)

And then I found STO, which has some of the same fundamentals in class building that i loved so much from D2.

Ugh, I really hope they don't go this route. Will dumb down the game, and make people feel even more "Locked in" then they currently are.
I don't mind more SPEC trees so long as they leave the base skill tree alone !

I think removing it is one of the worst things they can do, and a terrible mis step.
And it also raises a question for me.
I've used 4-5 Respec tokens on my main... What becomes of that ?
Everytime I turn around, they're making the services I've bought worthless.
Its starting to get on my nerves.

robert359 · February 2015

I wouldn't mind a new systen so much if they would get the current spec tree to work first. My juggernaut shields still don't work.

thatcursedwolf · February 2015

taylor1701d wrote: »

I've used 4-5 Respec tokens on my main... What becomes of that ?
Everytime I turn around, they're making the services I've bought worthless.
Its starting to get on my nerves.

If you've used them you got what became of them.

markdb2011 · February 2015

I wouldn't mind a new systen so much if they would get the current spec tree to work first. My juggernaut shields still don't work.

Just equip the rep trait that increases shield hp and that fixes that problem

mustrumridcully0 · February 2015

drsanity wrote: »

Mustrum,

Not like you to use qualifiers like 'pretty much' in the same line as confirmation.

What's the source for that? I haven't been able to locate it, but if it was a statement in a pod cast (and not written) that would likely be why?

Just looking for where the origin point of the information is if you know off hand.

The last statement I remember was made in the last Priority One podcast. It's a pretty good one, I think, since it also contains some more specific stuff on what the devs want to do in terms of rewards for various activities.

Thread is here: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1365261 (of course, you'll need to listen to the podcast itself.)

mirrorchaos · February 2015

ive mentioned this twice the past week, dont give cryptic a loaded gun, they will shoot you in the foot with it if they can get away with it. first thing Ricossa should do is get geko locked down a little, take him aside and then try get him to loosen up on a few things he has in his mind. im not gonna make an entitlement claim about what should and shouldnt happen, a waste of time trying, but this is the type of moment Ricossa should make an impact in some of the things he wants to bring forward or things he wants to change. obviously he cant get everything because PWE want what they want and Ricossa is their pawn, but he still has some control.

drsanity · February 2015

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

The last statement I remember was made in the last Priority One podcast. It's a pretty good one, I think, since it also contains some more specific stuff on what the devs want to do in terms of rewards for various activities.

Thread is here: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1365261 (of course, you'll need to listen to the podcast itself.)

Yah, i was afraid of that. I often feel like the last guy on the planet who really just wants to read the details rather than endure a bunch of PR constructed talking head content. Not a dig at Priority one as i get the fan service approach, I'm just of the mindset that actual data about the product/service should be provided as, you know, data I can read/copy/paste.

I accept I'm probably a fossil.

Thanks muchly mate, I'll hunt it out. Figured you had a clear source.

In line with the topic though, in principle, i think the current system is pretty hodge podge and opaque to any but the most dedicated player for being informed and I like complex systems that have value (note complex, not just complicated for complication sake).

If stabilizing\altering the skill tree system in this fashion means that the numerical curve in the game flattens considerably towards being more balanced across choices? I'd be totally ok with that, doubly so if it means we have one major system we use to improve/tailor/modify our characters, not the 3 or more now (Traits/Specialization/Skills).

thatcursedwolf · February 2015

Reading is so 20th century. Unsearchable, real time only videos are the way of the social media future!

mustrumridcully0 · February 2015

drsanity wrote: »

Yah, i was afraid of that. I often feel like the last guy on the planet who really just wants to read the details rather than endure a bunch of PR constructed talking head content. Not a dig at Priority one as i get the fan service approach, I'm just of the mindset that actual data about the product/service should be provided as, you know, data I can read/copy/paste.

I accept I'm probably a fossil.

Thanks muchly mate, I'll hunt it out. Figured you had a clear source.

In line with the topic though, in principle, i think the current system is pretty hodge podge and opaque to any but the most dedicated player for being informed and I like complex systems that have value (note complex, not just complicated for complication sake).

If stabilizing\altering the skill tree system in this fashion means that the numerical curve in the game flattens considerably towards being more balanced across choices? I'd be totally ok with that, doubly so if it means we have one major system we use to improve/tailor/modify our characters, not the 3 or more now (Traits/Specialization/Skills).

I feel like I also read it in some dev post on the forums, but with the dev tracker acting up so much lately, even if that was the case, whether you or I could find it again...

thatcursedwolf wrote: »

Reading is so 20th century. Unsearchable, real time only videos are the way of the social media future!

Game Walkthrough videos are the worst, I decided yesterday. I don't want to watch a 20 minute video to figure out how to solve a 20 minute mission!

But seriously, isn'T the problem simply that we can't CTRL-F or Google for audio parts? The problem is we're too low tech still!

leviathan99 · February 2015

I'd favor just:

Converting existing skills into passives (where taking them is a no brainer) and converting trees into specializations.

This allows people to get a start on existing specs if they prefer those to the standard trees.

You'd start earning spec points at level 1.

Space trees are the same between classes anyway.

Ground would become secondary specs that are profession exclusive.

OR, wild thought:

You just make more or less the whole thing into a primary specialization. This allows for profession respecs, which have been demanded. Tac/Sci/Eng just become primary specializations, the first 50 levels get awarded one spec point per level, and existing players get these points retroactively since they're losing the skill tree.

Maybe convert species into a "Cultural Specialization" option as a slight spin on the spec system. Cultural Spec Points might be awarded in some different (novel) ways. I've got some thoughts on the mechanics of this.

taylor1701d · February 2015

stoleviathan99 wrote: »

I'd favor just:

Converting existing skills into passives (where taking them is a no brainer) and converting trees into specializations.

This allows people to get a start on existing specs if they prefer those to the standard trees.

You'd start earning spec points at level 1.

Space trees are the same between classes anyway.

Ground would become secondary specs that are profession exclusive.

OR, wild thought:

You just make more or less the whole thing into a primary specialization. This allows for profession respecs, which have been demanded. Tac/Sci/Eng just become primary specializations, the first 50 levels get awarded one spec point per level, and existing players get these points retroactively since they're losing the skill tree.

Maybe convert species into a "Cultural Specialization" option as a slight spin on the spec system. Cultural Spec Points might be awarded in some different (novel) ways. I've got some thoughts on the mechanics of this.

I actually like your wild thought.
I'd have to see it in action, but it seems like a sound way to go about it.
That would allow someone with a main account to try the different career paths, via Respec token.
As it is, its hard to run more then 3 proper built toons. So experimenting has been hurt since DR.
Would allow people to more easily try other factions. Id have a captain for each faction. (Which I do already, but wouldn't need a sci, tac, and engi to really get a feel for a faction - that's 9 toons, way too much for most people)

But my question still is, what happens to your base ratings ?
For example if I have 9 skill points invested in attack patterns, I will have a base rating of 99 on ship stats page.
How do they account for the base numbers you once had ?
In this new system, what would give you these numbers ? Because there is way more skill points to account for then 60 (lvl 1-60).
Will you get 99 by simply selecting attack patterns 1, 2, 3 ?
I still have too many questions about this. And we don't have any concrete answers yet.

I'm not fond of what they did to boffs and skill icons.
Both of which didn't need such drastic change. At this point I'm a little weary to say the least.

nicha0 · February 2015

I like the skill trees a lot. I hate the skill tree UI, it creates a lot of problems.

I dislike the ground/space divide.

If you created a UI that explains what skills really do in easy to see ponit form, people would be less confused.
If you go a step further and show them they approximate change to and effect of those skill points on your total skill and systems that would be amazing.

Changing to a tree would just make it like everything else, and we know STO and systems aren't in a good place now, and its getting worse, not better.

lordagamemnonb5 · February 2015

Imagine the grind that will probably be implemented if player skills become a tree.

Please don't turn skills into trees

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