near the end of the dominion war martok challenged sisko and that admirls to a toast over the bodies of the dead cardasians . when they got there martok broke out the blood whine and the 2 feddy bears refused to toast with him. they walk off martok gives us a look of ohh well then toasts the victory alone. moral values are clearly not the same.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Translation: WAAAH! YOU KEEP CALLING ME ON BEING AN EVIL TRIBBLE! I QUIT!
You sound an awful lot like Gaul. Here's another trope for you: Never My Fault
still rather funny i never once called you evil anything not once . all im saying is the kdf is not the federation and should not be treated or expected to treat others the same way. if it is to be that way then the empire is dead because it would essentially be the same thing as the feds and whats the point of that?
and as for Gual what does it matter whos fault it was he was lookign out for himself and his people and i agreed with him. on Voyager he didnt ask them to wake him up but once they did he was who he was a warrior from a warrior race wanting to wage war and retake what was long lost.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Hmm, slave labor and experiments on prisoners. Seen both of those in KDF doff assignments.
War criminals, the lot of you.
Conveniently enough, the extermiantion of civilian personel on Romulan facilities is considered humanitarian aid on the Federation side of things. :rolleyes:
Conveniently enough, the extermiantion of civilian personel on Romulan facilities is considered humanitarian aid on the Federation side of things. :rolleyes:
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I know you. I was like you once. But then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands, and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves Paradise, everyone should want to be in the Federation! Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day, they can take their rightful place on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways, you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious, you assimilate people - and they don't even know it.
still rather funny i never once called you evil anything not once . all im saying is the kdf is not the federation and should not be treated or expected to treat others the same way. if it is to be that way then the empire is dead because it would essentially be the same thing as the feds and whats the point of that?
You know, there is such a thing as batlh, of which the KDF has zero. Worf, son of Mogh has more batlh in his pinkie than any ten KDF fleets.
Conveniently enough, the extermiantion of civilian personel on Romulan facilities is considered humanitarian aid on the Federation side of things. :rolleyes:
Have you ever once seen me defending that? That mission was ****ing stupid. Find me a single player in this entire game who thinks that was a good mission and I'll eat the Bajor.
I know you. I was like you once. But then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands, and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves Paradise, everyone should want to be in the Federation! Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day, they can take their rightful place on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways, you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious, you assimilate people - and they don't even know it.
- Michael Eddington
Feds are the real Evuls !!!!!!!!!!!!
No, Eddington was, considering he was the one who was dropping chemical weapons on Cardassian civilians and firing on evacuation ships. Or did you conveniently forget that part?
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I believe the problem comes from Cryptic writing and design, as I argued earlier. The story of your Romulan character, if you are not overiding Cryptic's storyline in your headcanon, is pretty much the story of a country bumpkin who became someone around whom most normal people in societies such as the Republic or the Federation would be at the very least uncomfortable.
In just two years you have killed more people and participated on more battles, both in space and in ground, than all of the 'hero captains' put together did in their entire careers. You are at the very least suffering PTSD from your time in Hakeev's ship, and it would be no surprise if you suffering from it or from similar disorders because of some of the other battles and experiences you have gone through.
And then there is the marauding. How long will it take for someone back home to notice what you are pulling in these illegal mining and agricultural colony raids is exactly the same the Tal Shiar pulled on Virinat and many others? And I am sure you are creating much goodwill between the Romulans and the Vulcans when you sell your Vulcan prisoners to orion slavers or send them to labor camps. And did you read the little blurb when you dismissed that white Romulan to make space for that purple Ferasan? You spaced your Romulan bro, you terrible monster you. I want to see you trying to explain that to his family back in New Romulus.
Not to mention all the duels to the death you have been involved it. You may say your ship is a Romulan Republic one and thus such things do not happen, but have you seen your roster lately? Chances are, most of your duty officers are KDF. Things can get bloody if you lose the respect of the very same purples you spent a small fortune in the exchange for. Which takes us to another thing, how do you think your crew behaves in those long weeks at warp between daily and daily? Do you believe the naive idealism of the Republic is manifest in the same ship on which most duty officers and probably quite a bit of the crew are Klingons, Ferasans, Orions, Gorn, Letheans, and Nausicaans?
And Klingon Honor is a complicated thing. Before you proved yourself there were a couple millions of Klingons in the Empire waiting for the smallest excuse to take century old grudges and revenges on the Romulan. Or are you going to tell me the random Klingon warrior in the street is going to be accommodating of the Romulan's faux pas or has any f*cks to give about alliances made at the level of the state? You had to learn the culture, and you had to make it yours. You had to be more observant of the rules than the Klingons themselves, because you had to show you deserved a place among them.
And that's only scratching the surface.
Your ship and your captain are neck deep in the culture of the Empire. And she has become the kind of person who can take on a station full of Jem'Hadar by herself and then defeat their leader in singular combat. When you transported back to your ship to lead it into battle against the Jem'Hadar fleet, dripping alien blood and with small pieces of alien clothing, alien bone, and alien brain stuck in your clothes and your blade, the romulan equivalent of adrenaline shortcircuiting your brain into pure twitchy aggression and a grin both proud and animal, what expression was there in the face of your fellow Republicans? Was it the same to be seen in the face of your KDF crewmembers?
And when the shuttle with that romulan tactical doff (the one who is dating the idealist romulan science doff) that you sent along a Klingon and a Gorn to raid a civilian vessel comes back as she's waiting for them, what expression will she have as the civilian slaves are unloaded and the Klingon veteran is loudly boasting about how the cute little Romulan pup took his first five heads during the attack while the three are laughing and making plans to go get drunk on both bloodwine and romulan ale?
So you better tell your Romulan captain not to get her hopes too high. She's KDF, and you love it. Why else would you be coming every day to have her slaughter hundreds in every skirmish and thousands in every major battle? Why else you would take part in the slaughter for more honor, more glory, more spoils, more Dil, and more favor with your sponsors? And when everything returns to normal don't be surprised if she finds herself going through a pointy eared version of the original Fallout's ending, with D'Tan telling her the KDF has changed her too much and there's no longer a place in New Romulus for her.
That's a gripe I have with how Cryptic dealt with the Romulans: KDF Romulans have nowhere to go back to unless you want to headcanon she being adopted into a Great House, adopted into a Nausicaan clan, or taken in by Klingon Intelligence. After what they have gone through the world D'Tan wants to build is alien to her.
Imagine the war is over and she's going on a date on New Romulus, and she's telling the guy some funny anecdotes from her time in space. '... And, LOL, there was this time the Jem'Hadar attacked Deep Space Nine during a peace conference, you know? And there was this really long table, right? Like, really long. So a Jem'Hadar snucks in and kills some short feddiebear dude, and we are all, like, WTF? But all of a sudden, BAM!, Ambassador S'taass jumps across the whole table to pound on the Jemmy, and then he tears both the Jemmy's arms off and beats him to death with them. Ah, good times. I wonder what he's doing now, the old lizard?'
so throw out kdf canon and the game has lost its last bit of trek and is just a generic game.
so as i said before if you want the generic game keep up with the cross faction stuff. looks like your getting it anyways. but if you want canon trek we have to stay separate even if the end goal is the same we would not go about it the same way.
and im sorry for what the devs did to your romulans. they sure didnt ask me cause if it was up to me the Empire would have taken the remans and to hell with the romulans let them all go fed . i jsut dont want to see them sitting on benches in 1st city talking. and saying see Klingons are not so bad. which means they talk bad about us even after joining the faction.
id have had a full 3rd faction as the Star empire with options for romulan to unify with the vulcans and remans to seek safety with the kdf as fellow warriors.
So what you are saying is that you welcome an invitation to foster cooperation between our governments while hiding that D'k tagh behind your back waiting to plant it in our backs. How very Romulan of you. Yes, that is meant as an insult.
I am not asking for the Empire to change their ways. Yes my Feds would like to team up with the Romulans and KDf. That is the spirit of the Federation. My Romulan captain would like to team up with Feds and KDf due to the alliance. They are helping her establish a new home so she will help them as well. My KDF characters on the other had have all their own personal agendas to achieve and to **** with the Federation or Republic. I do not have a single Klingon character. I have a Gorn, Orion, and Ferasan.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Kinda amusing really. All these issues people have long had, especially with that mission...
POOF, gone in an instant.
And the Federation players get to go on believing that they've done no wrongs now because that mission isn't in the game anymore.
well, if you go with the idea that either daniels or braxton are TRIBBLE with the timeline as an in-universe reason for why all those missions suddenly vanished (like i'm doing to otherwise keep from marching on cryptic's headquarters with an angry mob for removing so many missions - and their resulting XP), the federation really didn't do anything wrong, because none of that would ever have happened
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
So what you are saying is that you welcome an invitation to foster cooperation between our governments while hiding that D'k tagh behind your back waiting to plant it in our backs. How very Romulan of you. Yes, that is meant as an insult.
i don't take it as an insult i just consider the misunderstanding of the source. all of your basis for interpretation is going off of the human point of view. and your not trying to apply the fictional Klingon mentality canon has established.
I am not asking for the Empire to change their ways. Yes my Feds would like to team up with the Romulans and KDf. That is the spirit of the Federation. My Romulan captain would like to team up with Feds and KDf due to the alliance. They are helping her establish a new home so she will help them as well. My KDF characters on the other had have all their own personal agendas to achieve and to **** with the Federation or Republic. I do not have a single Klingon character. I have a Gorn, Orion, and Ferasan.
no and from your response you didn't read previous posts in this thread.
now when ever a fed lover tries to define an alliance, cease fire, joint task force, or even fighting a common enemy in a combined front' i just think are they really this naive. Other than out right alliance can be achieved even by enemies if the proper conditions call for it.
so ok you want a cease fire fine, I can stop shooting unless provoked but we are supposed to still be Klingons. and i dont wanna hear well im an orion or gorn or what ever, those species are part of the Empire now and as such expected to act as Klingons. unless you want to toss all we know about klingons from canon out the airlock, and in that case it is no longer trek.
with that said if it is no longer trek its just a generic sci fi game and none of the debates or arguments matter anymore.
SO if you really want the generic game keep asking for more unification and erasure of the Klingon culture to have your happy little utopia. or let the differences in the species that make star trek what it is meant to be thrive.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
You know, there is such a thing as batlh, of which the KDF has zero. Worf, son of Mogh has more batlh in his pinkie than any ten KDF fleets.
your ideas of honor, like most of your arguments you are basing Klingon mentaltity on the human ideas of what honor is. same with your beloved WORF raised by humans it was those ideas that he applied to the Klingon teachings. now all this did was make him a really good just and moral human that was ugly as ****. but he was not much of a Klingon in anything other than looks and bloodline in his early years.He did have a few shining moments though where he did indeed act like a Klingon just to turn around and act like a human again. (avenging Alexanders mother) (taking out Gowron) he had a long hard struggle to even start understanding the Klingon ways.
its been established in canon that the end result is what you derive honor from. not the actions taken to achieve that result. and that's a little skewed from typical human thinking.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Have you ever once seen me defending that? That mission was ****ing stupid. Find me a single player in this entire game who thinks that was a good mission and I'll eat the Bajor.
I never said you're defending that, the point I was trying to make is that it's pointless to point a finger at certain player characters or factions and label them "war criminals" as if anyone else has the higher moral ground in the bizaro world Cryptic created where every single player character existing in game is a war criminal. My most peacefull Starfleet Sci. has a bigger body count than most of Human history's tyrants and nutcases combined.
But I wouldn't make that bet if I were you, unless you've got one hell of a stomach. I've witnessed at least 3 to 5 of the most hardcore "Cryptic can do no wrong" CDF-ers that were defending that particular mission and trying to explain how and why it's actually good.
some here are taking this debate far too personally in the past i have disagreed with shop, nina, mim and patric on issues before, but i believe that of the forum goers they are some of the best examples of Klingon players we have. disagreement does not relate to hatred at least not with me and id go so far to say it does not to most of the KDF main players either. It is always the federation that refuses step outside and view things differently and objectively.
now while as far as i know most of the other kdf main players also have fed toons i do not . i played my fed only so long as it took to be able to make a Klingon . Klingons are the only reason i came to the game. without that it is not fun and not a game to me. so after some time my fed Klingon i had had reached lvl 50 just via doff missions when the t6 ship packs came out i went and deleted him altogether in protest to our treatment. for me head canon was he was on fed side as a spy of sorts and with the games current political standings he had no use so i killed him. i could never be played as a Klingon just because of where he was stuck.
I think if you want to play fed side you should be allowed to play as any species you like that is the fed way take them all and assimilate them and thats fine its their way. But don't apply that to the KDF kdf side its the opposite other species are allowed but they must prove themselves and show that they are worthy and expected to know understand and act like a Klingon to be accepted by them. its not the Klingon way to adapt to others.
so you know i just talked myself into. is if you insist on allowing cross faction teams it should only be allowed if the team has a KDF team leader to accept others based on merit and be able to boot those who are without honor. other than that nope no way. LOL nope on second thought not even then. games track record of messing up things wouldn't support that complex of a teaming environment so nope please no cross faction BS.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
i don't take it as an insult i just consider the misunderstanding of the source. all of your basis for interpretation is going off of the human point of view. and your not trying to apply the fictional Klingon mentality canon has established.
no and from your response you didn't read previous posts in this thread.
OK, if you want to stick strictly to what we know of Klingon canon, Show me one instance were the Klingon Empire allowed a non Klingon to command a Klingon vessel. The absolute closest you can get is when Riker served as first officer of a Klingon vessel during an exchange program. The Klingon Empire we know from TOS to DS9 subjugated their conquers, not incorporated them into their society.
OK, if you want to stick strictly to what we know of Klingon canon, Show me one instance were the Klingon Empire allowed a non Klingon to command a Klingon vessel. The absolute closest you can get is when Riker served as first officer of a Klingon vessel during an exchange program. The Klingon Empire we know from TOS to DS9 subjugated their conquers, not incorporated them into their society.
ok you ask me to point out one instance then say BUT you have to disregard this instance because im a fed player and want that example excluded. because it proves your point and not mine.
that example you want to disregard is part of KDF cannon, to the crew it did not matter what his race riker was once he proved himself he was worthy of taking command and they followed his orders. and he did take full command of the ship away from the captain and was Capetian for a short time.
now if we ever get literally hundreds of episodes with kdf main story lines im sure more examples could be given as its already established to be allowed and accepted. even if you want to exclude it. tuff nuts .
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
The Klingon Empire we know from TOS to DS9 subjugated their conquers, not incorporated them into their society.
in a cast system (how ever it is spelled) all are subjects and are to fill the roles they are best suited for so your at least correct about them all being subjugated.
and even going back to tos you can see the mentality. prior to kirk mucking things up for them. the peacenik Orgainians were allowed to retain their elder council ( even after all the federation propaganda Kirk was spouting off about prior to the Kors arrival) Kor Enters and only declared him self military governor .
and in enterprise why was archer charged with inferring with the apprehension of fugitive Klingon citizens when none of them were Klingon species if the empire did not consider them as their own?
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
I just want to point something out, for the sake of clarification, without quoting multiple replies.
The reason this debate about removing faction restrictions is so important so some of us and even angers some is the developer of this game - Cryptic and their history with this game and our faction in particular.
Now, I'm sure that apart from a handfull of trolls most of the people proposing and supporting such changes have good intentions at heart in terms of adding more options and dynamic for the lower population of the KDF to start queues, and not harming the faction on purpose.
Where the disconnect happens between the ones supporting such changes and ones adamantly against them is Cryptic's development of STO. Time and time again they've shown no capacity to handle multiple factions, they've shown no will to properly support anything other than Fed, they've shown almost no care for the troubles or the players that play on the red side of the game.
So, in Cryptic's own terms when stuff like this (faction restrictions. merges) happens, it usually means "great, another part of the game where we won't need to pay attention, not even in our sub-consciousness". Just see this new "alliance", for KDF players it meant missions consisting of buying groceries and cooking with friggin' Neelix. And that pains some of us that main KDF and actually like the faction, culture, aesthetics, tradition, etc.
To put it as simple as I can, whenever someone asks for somekind of a merge between the factions on the forum, pure/mainly KDF players/fans see that and think - "Oh great, another person pushing Cryptic to just merge and stop developing the faction and gameplay I love". And then some tend to get or maybe just sound angry and upset. The reason I actually made this reply is because I wanted to say to you or everyone that supports such changes - don't take some of that anger personally, as it's usually not adressed at you (the players), but rather at Cryptic and their policies we can't do anything about, which tends to be frustrating.
I just want to point soemthing out, for the sake of clarification, without quoting multiple replies.
The reason this debate about removing faction restrictions is so important so some of us and even angers some is the developer of this game - Cryptic and their history with this game and our faction in particular.
Now, I'm sure that apart from a handfull of trolls most of the people proposing and supporting such changes have good intentions at heart in terms of adding more options and dynamic for the lower population of the KDF to start queues, and not harming the faction on purpose.
Where the disconnect happens between the ones supporting such changes and ones adamantly against them is Cryptic's development of STO. Time and time again they've shown no capacity to handle multiple factions, they've shown no will to properly support anything other than Fed, they've shown almost no care for the troubles or the players that play on the red side of the game.
So, in Cryptic's own terms when stuff like this (faction restrictions. merges) happens, it usually means "great, another part of the game where we won't need to pay attention, not even in our sub-consciousness". Just see this new "alliance", for KDF players it meant missions consisting of buying groceries and cooking with friggin' Neelix. And that pains some of us that main KDF and actually like the faction, culture, aesthetics, tradition, etc.
To put it as simple as I can, whenever someone asks for someking of a merge between the factions on the forum, pure/mainly KDF players/fans see that and think - "Oh great, another person pushing Cryptic to just merge and stop developing the faction and gameplay I love". And then some tend to get or maybe just sound angry and upset. The reason I actually made this reply is because I wanted to say to you or everyone that supports such changes - don't take some of that anger personally, as it's usually not adressed at you (the players), but rather at Cryptic and their policies we can't do anything about, which tends to be frustrating.
Couldn't have said it better myself
Shanara: Oh a present, from Neelix with love xoxo (opens it) a cookbook?! I WILL KILL THAT PTAQ! Neelix is the cryptic devs, the cookbook is a patch that says that feds can go to Qonos and feds and kdfs don't need factional teams.
Captain Joseph Riker, U.S.S. Odyssey==General V'Mar, U.S.S. Blackwater-A==Admiral Laura Holmes, U.S.S. Forward Unto Dawn Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
Public Trials, public Executions-there's not a lot more convincing than a dead undine where there had been a living Gorn.
The suspects weren't put to death quietly, in a back room on Dzerzhinsky Square, they were killed in public.-and the bodies laying on the block afterward weren't Gorn bodies.
The undine that had taken over and suborned the Gorn leadership were killed in public, Starsword. What was laying afterward, wasn't Gorn bodies.
That would be...incontrovertible evidence that the being you just saw executed, wsan't an innocent Gorn.
THe empire then took in the Gorn Hegemony as a protectorate-King Slathis has a non-voting seat on the High Council, it's not what the Federation would do, but I'm sorry, the evidence is solidly clear. It gets clearer when you remember that the Gorn initiated hostilities, refused to negotiate in good faith, and expanded the war in the first place.
The threat was verified Starsword-unless you posit that the Empire has a handy source of pre-executed Undine bodies to do transporter tricks with in a public execution setting.
Please note the absence of references in Path to 2409 to innocents being executed publicly. this wasnt' scattershot ****-the KDF knew who was, and who wasn't, and acted accordingly.
As for the Hromi cluster situation...you're familiar with the Maquis, right? because the KDF is VERY familiar with the concept of irregular fighters acting on behalf of the Federation-the KDF supported the Maquis. Removal of a source of irregular fighters when you KNOW the potential is there, is standard military operations even among HUMANS.
as is hampering the logistics of an active enemy who's broken their treaty agreements. for the second time in fifty years.
Trusting the Federation NOT to abuse the position of those colonies, especially when the evidence indicates they've sided with the enemy? not really an option.
esp. if you just executed several hundred high-ranking Gorn only to have to dispose of several hundred Undine corpses. (or several thousand-depending on thoroughness.)
No matter how you want to condemn, the fact is, the Federation was under a hostile foreign influence.
Now, just a small diversion, but do you know how a Klingon deals with a friend who's under a hostile influence?
That's right-they beat the influence out of them until they see reason.
Same with wrong-headed notions. it's how a Klingon 'helps' you beat an addiction, or recognize a fatal attraction-they beat you until you see sense.
Among humans, I believe the term is "Intervention" or "Deprogramming".
A Klingon, say, joins a suciidal cult? his relatives and friends show up and beat him until he recognizes the problem and deals with it.
pretending to be lily-white innocence is very non-Klingon, and it's rather disingenuous for humans as well-it took years of war, having a monastery shot up, and having Earth Space Dock attacked, before the Federation recognized they had a problem...a problem that they could have avoided all that war and bloodshed by just recognizing and dealing with on their own, while upholding their treaties.
but instead, they chose to VOID those treaties and ignore the problem...again.
I just want to point something out, for the sake of clarification, without quoting multiple replies.
The reason this debate about removing faction restrictions is so important so some of us and even angers some is the developer of this game - Cryptic and their history with this game and our faction in particular.
Now, I'm sure that apart from a handfull of trolls most of the people proposing and supporting such changes have good intentions at heart in terms of adding more options and dynamic for the lower population of the KDF to start queues, and not harming the faction on purpose.
Where the disconnect happens between the ones supporting such changes and ones adamantly against them is Cryptic's development of STO. Time and time again they've shown no capacity to handle multiple factions, they've shown no will to properly support anything other than Fed, they've shown almost no care for the troubles or the players that play on the red side of the game.
So, in Cryptic's own terms when stuff like this (faction restrictions. merges) happens, it usually means "great, another part of the game where we won't need to pay attention, not even in our sub-consciousness". Just see this new "alliance", for KDF players it meant missions consisting of buying groceries and cooking with friggin' Neelix. And that pains some of us that main KDF and actually like the faction, culture, aesthetics, tradition, etc.
To put it as simple as I can, whenever someone asks for somekind of a merge between the factions on the forum, pure/mainly KDF players/fans see that and think - "Oh great, another person pushing Cryptic to just merge and stop developing the faction and gameplay I love". And then some tend to get or maybe just sound angry and upset. The reason I actually made this reply is because I wanted to say to you or everyone that supports such changes - don't take some of that anger personally, as it's usually not adressed at you (the players), but rather at Cryptic and their policies we can't do anything about, which tends to be frustrating.
This all makes sense.
I used to be one of the "allow cross faction whatever" because, frankly, I was the only one in my fleet playing KDF side 99% of the time.
Once I moved my characters into my personal storage fleet, I suddenly didn't feel the need for cross faction anything, unless in rare circumstances (or private STF queues). I feel that if you will not play Klingon side, you really don't want to team with KDF people all that badly.
Now my lone FED alt is gathering dust, and I'm fine with that.
I use KDF Defera if I feel like doing Defera stuff. Works out pretty well, and I feel 0 need for cross faction teaming there.
Public Trials, public Executions-there's not a lot more convincing than a dead undine where there had been a living Gorn.
The suspects weren't put to death quietly, in a back room on Dzerzhinsky Square, they were killed in public.-and the bodies laying on the block afterward weren't Gorn bodies.
The undine that had taken over and suborned the Gorn leadership were killed in public, Starsword. What was laying afterward, wasn't Gorn bodies.
That would be...incontrovertible evidence that the being you just saw executed, wsan't an innocent Gorn.
THe empire then took in the Gorn Hegemony as a protectorate-King Slathis has a non-voting seat on the High Council, it's not what the Federation would do, but I'm sorry, the evidence is solidly clear. It gets clearer when you remember that the Gorn initiated hostilities, refused to negotiate in good faith, and expanded the war in the first place.
The threat was verified Starsword-unless you posit that the Empire has a handy source of pre-executed Undine bodies to do transporter tricks with in a public execution setting.
Please note the absence of references in Path to 2409 to innocents being executed publicly. this wasnt' scattershot ****-the KDF knew who was, and who wasn't, and acted accordingly.
Okay, I think we're talking past each other. I'm talking about showing evidence before going to war, not after. That is how you get the Feds on your side. There is zero indication that at the time the Klingons wanted to get the Feds involved under the Khitomer Accords, they showed any evidence. Ergo, the Feds told them to get back on their side of the border and the Klingons withdrew from the treaty. Which meant the Federation was no longer obliged to do anything to help them.
As for the Hromi cluster situation...you're familiar with the Maquis, right? because the KDF is VERY familiar with the concept of irregular fighters acting on behalf of the Federation-the KDF supported the Maquis. Removal of a source of irregular fighters when you KNOW the potential is there, is standard military operations even among HUMANS.
If you will recall, the Maquis problem started in the first place because the Cardassians were illegally arming their own colonists and encouraging them to attack Federation-held planets. There wouldn't have been a source of irregular soldiers to fight the Klingons in the Hromi Cluster if the Klingons hadn't invaded and started deliberately targeting civilians. The Federation was not the aggressor.
You've got your cause and effect completely mixed up.
as is hampering the logistics of an active enemy who's broken their treaty agreements. for the second time in fifty years.
Active enemy my TRIBBLE. The Klingons were the first to attack the Federation, whom they had previously relieved of any treaty obligations by withdrawing by choice from the treaty in question.
Trusting the Federation NOT to abuse the position of those colonies, especially when the evidence indicates they've sided with the enemy? not really an option.
What evidence? All there's evidence for is that the Klingons like to conquer things and then justify them after the fact.
esp. if you just executed several hundred high-ranking Gorn only to have to dispose of several hundred Undine corpses. (or several thousand-depending on thoroughness.)
Justification after the fact. The Klingons had already withdrawn from the treaty and the war was over so there was no longer any reason for the Federation to get involved.
No matter how you want to condemn, the fact is, the Federation was under a hostile foreign influence.
No, you've got evidence the Gorn were under a hostile foreign influence. Starfleet Intelligence was dealing with the Undine on their own turf but the thing is, they don't go off half-cocked and just kill the guy. They gather evidence and deal with the problem methodically.
Now, just a small diversion, but do you know how a Klingon deals with a friend who's under a hostile influence?
That's right-they beat the influence out of them until they see reason.
Same with wrong-headed notions. it's how a Klingon 'helps' you beat an addiction, or recognize a fatal attraction-they beat you until you see sense.
Among humans, I believe the term is "Intervention" or "Deprogramming".
A Klingon, say, joins a suciidal cult? his relatives and friends show up and beat him until he recognizes the problem and deals with it.
J'mpok made absolutely no bones about why he wanted to attack the Federation. It had nothing to do with "beating alien influence out of the Federation" and everything to do with expanding the Empire's borders by conquest at the Federation's expense. Do you then deny the Federation has the right to defend itself against foreign aggression?
pretending to be lily-white innocence is very non-Klingon, and it's rather disingenuous for humans as well-it took years of war, having a monastery shot up, and having Earth Space Dock attacked, before the Federation recognized they had a problem...a problem that they could have avoided all that war and bloodshed by just recognizing and dealing with on their own, while upholding their treaties.
but instead, they chose to VOID those treaties and ignore the problem...again.
All those events happened inside of the last year. Prior to that there is suspicion, but no hard proof, that there are Undine in Federation guise. And the Klingons were the ones who voided the treaty by withdrawing from it and then launching an invasion of Federation territory deliberately targeted against civilian colonists. And there is no "again" because the Klingons were factually wrong the first time and with disastrous consequences for everyone in the quadrant.
That is why the Federation refused to get involved: The last time the Klingons went off half-cocked babbling about alien influence, the Cardassians were completely innocent and the Klingons were the ones who were infiltrated. Guess what happened next? The Klingons' unprovoked, unjustified aggression drove the Cardies to join up with the Dominion and the result was one of the most devastating wars in galactic history. Not even the Klingons came off pretty: if Sloan is to be believed they needed at least ten years to recover from their losses.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
By the way, I looked up the text of the Khitomer Accords in an official (though non-canon) source, one which as far as I can tell has no conflicts with STO canon.
Article I: Both Parties obligate themeselves to desist from any act of violence, any aggressive action, and any attack on the each other, either individually or jointly with other powers.
Article II: The Governments of the two Parties shall institute full diplomatic relations with each other. A parcel of land shall be delivered on each of the worlds, which will serve as center for government for each Party so that the other Party may establish an Embassy.
Article III: Should one of the Parties become the object of belligerent action by a third power, the other Party shall in no manner lend its support to this third power, and will lend whatever aid and assistance to the other party it deems appropriate by the rules of its internal government.
Article IV: Both Parties agree to provide humanitarian aid to each other.
Article V: Both Parties agree that any former grievances they had with the other are now forgotten. If any individual under the rule of one Party commits an act of revenge or retribution on the other Party, that individual will be extradited to stand trial under the laws of the aggrieved Party.
Article VI: Both Parties agree to the specifics of the following sections delineating conflict resolution, territorial definitions, trad laws, and all other provisions in this document.
Article III is the key point. The Federation did not see any aid or assistance to be appropriate because the Klingons were repeating history to the letter, and just like happened last time, the Klingons threw a tantrum and broke off the treaty altogether. At which point the Federation was no longer legally required to do anything to help them.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
There is zero indication from the PT2409 that anyone during that event spoke, wore clothes, slept, or a near limitless number of other things yet it is assumed they did, so why assume that the story in PT2409 is anything but based on facts as they happened before we enter the world of STO?
We do know that Star Fleet was Undine infiltrated, maybe that's why SF ignored the KDF? Why help those bent on finding you?
To assume that the whole debacle that led through PT2409 to the current story in STO is the fault of the KDF is idiotic. Everyone in STO has had a hand in the idiocy that currently exists. No one is beyond blaim, including the federation. Which is why they said as much in the FEs with Tuvok.
Okay, I think we're talking past each other. I'm talking about showing evidence before going to war, not after. That is how you get the Feds on your side.
i think the Klingon point of view is they were already supposed to be on our side , Why should we need to prove anything if immediate action was deemed as needed. sitting around and talking about it is not the Klingon way. acting on things in a aggressive manor is . and the feds know all this about the Klingons if they were not prepared to deal with it they never should have entered the agreement.
and it is also the Klingon way to take a promis as meaning at all costs. so the feds give their word sign a treaty / alliance pact or what ever then fail to follow through. for a Klingon that is grounds to attack in and of itself. to regain honor lost by being deceived.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
If you will recall, the Maquis problem started in the first place because the Cardassians were illegally arming their own colonists and encouraging them to attack Federation-held planets. There wouldn't have been a source of irregular soldiers to fight the Klingons in the Hromi Cluster if the Klingons hadn't invaded and started deliberately targeting civilians. The Federation was not the aggressor.
Really? i thought it was because the federation entered into an agreement with the Cards that ceded some previously held planets to the cardassians. then the cards told those people to to get out and they did not want to. and that is when the cards encouraged the attacks. but not on federation held planets on their own planets that had former federation colonies on them. those colonists resisted and the federation tried to get them out but they did not want to give up all they had worked for and resisted.
if it had been as you said and the cards were attcking federation planets major hostilties would have broken out and Janeway would not have been trying to apprehend chakotay. and picard and ensign roe would not have been on secrete missions to catch maquis, the occupation of bajor would not have ended and Wesley would not have hooked up with his traveler buddy.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Comments
still rather funny i never once called you evil anything not once . all im saying is the kdf is not the federation and should not be treated or expected to treat others the same way. if it is to be that way then the empire is dead because it would essentially be the same thing as the feds and whats the point of that?
and as for Gual what does it matter whos fault it was he was lookign out for himself and his people and i agreed with him. on Voyager he didnt ask them to wake him up but once they did he was who he was a warrior from a warrior race wanting to wage war and retake what was long lost.
Conveniently enough, the extermiantion of civilian personel on Romulan facilities is considered humanitarian aid on the Federation side of things. :rolleyes:
Pot. Kettle. Black.
temporal incursions are so fun
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
- Michael Eddington
Feds are the real Evuls !!!!!!!!!!!!
Have you ever once seen me defending that? That mission was ****ing stupid. Find me a single player in this entire game who thinks that was a good mission and I'll eat the Bajor.
No, Eddington was, considering he was the one who was dropping chemical weapons on Cardassian civilians and firing on evacuation ships. Or did you conveniently forget that part?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
That was quite the response. *claps in approval*
So what you are saying is that you welcome an invitation to foster cooperation between our governments while hiding that D'k tagh behind your back waiting to plant it in our backs. How very Romulan of you. Yes, that is meant as an insult.
I am not asking for the Empire to change their ways. Yes my Feds would like to team up with the Romulans and KDf. That is the spirit of the Federation. My Romulan captain would like to team up with Feds and KDf due to the alliance. They are helping her establish a new home so she will help them as well. My KDF characters on the other had have all their own personal agendas to achieve and to **** with the Federation or Republic. I do not have a single Klingon character. I have a Gorn, Orion, and Ferasan.
Kinda amusing really. All these issues people have long had, especially with that mission...
POOF, gone in an instant.
And the Federation players get to go on believing that they've done no wrongs now because that mission isn't in the game anymore.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
i don't take it as an insult i just consider the misunderstanding of the source. all of your basis for interpretation is going off of the human point of view. and your not trying to apply the fictional Klingon mentality canon has established.
no and from your response you didn't read previous posts in this thread.
your ideas of honor, like most of your arguments you are basing Klingon mentaltity on the human ideas of what honor is. same with your beloved WORF raised by humans it was those ideas that he applied to the Klingon teachings. now all this did was make him a really good just and moral human that was ugly as ****. but he was not much of a Klingon in anything other than looks and bloodline in his early years.He did have a few shining moments though where he did indeed act like a Klingon just to turn around and act like a human again. (avenging Alexanders mother) (taking out Gowron) he had a long hard struggle to even start understanding the Klingon ways.
its been established in canon that the end result is what you derive honor from. not the actions taken to achieve that result. and that's a little skewed from typical human thinking.
I never said you're defending that, the point I was trying to make is that it's pointless to point a finger at certain player characters or factions and label them "war criminals" as if anyone else has the higher moral ground in the bizaro world Cryptic created where every single player character existing in game is a war criminal. My most peacefull Starfleet Sci. has a bigger body count than most of Human history's tyrants and nutcases combined.
But I wouldn't make that bet if I were you, unless you've got one hell of a stomach. I've witnessed at least 3 to 5 of the most hardcore "Cryptic can do no wrong" CDF-ers that were defending that particular mission and trying to explain how and why it's actually good.
now while as far as i know most of the other kdf main players also have fed toons i do not . i played my fed only so long as it took to be able to make a Klingon . Klingons are the only reason i came to the game. without that it is not fun and not a game to me. so after some time my fed Klingon i had had reached lvl 50 just via doff missions when the t6 ship packs came out i went and deleted him altogether in protest to our treatment. for me head canon was he was on fed side as a spy of sorts and with the games current political standings he had no use so i killed him. i could never be played as a Klingon just because of where he was stuck.
I think if you want to play fed side you should be allowed to play as any species you like that is the fed way take them all and assimilate them and thats fine its their way. But don't apply that to the KDF kdf side its the opposite other species are allowed but they must prove themselves and show that they are worthy and expected to know understand and act like a Klingon to be accepted by them. its not the Klingon way to adapt to others.
so you know i just talked myself into. is if you insist on allowing cross faction teams it should only be allowed if the team has a KDF team leader to accept others based on merit and be able to boot those who are without honor. other than that nope no way. LOL nope on second thought not even then. games track record of messing up things wouldn't support that complex of a teaming environment so nope please no cross faction BS.
OK, if you want to stick strictly to what we know of Klingon canon, Show me one instance were the Klingon Empire allowed a non Klingon to command a Klingon vessel. The absolute closest you can get is when Riker served as first officer of a Klingon vessel during an exchange program. The Klingon Empire we know from TOS to DS9 subjugated their conquers, not incorporated them into their society.
ok you ask me to point out one instance then say BUT you have to disregard this instance because im a fed player and want that example excluded. because it proves your point and not mine.
that example you want to disregard is part of KDF cannon, to the crew it did not matter what his race riker was once he proved himself he was worthy of taking command and they followed his orders. and he did take full command of the ship away from the captain and was Capetian for a short time.
now if we ever get literally hundreds of episodes with kdf main story lines im sure more examples could be given as its already established to be allowed and accepted. even if you want to exclude it. tuff nuts .
in a cast system (how ever it is spelled) all are subjects and are to fill the roles they are best suited for so your at least correct about them all being subjugated.
and even going back to tos you can see the mentality. prior to kirk mucking things up for them. the peacenik Orgainians were allowed to retain their elder council ( even after all the federation propaganda Kirk was spouting off about prior to the Kors arrival) Kor Enters and only declared him self military governor .
and in enterprise why was archer charged with inferring with the apprehension of fugitive Klingon citizens when none of them were Klingon species if the empire did not consider them as their own?
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
I just want to point something out, for the sake of clarification, without quoting multiple replies.
The reason this debate about removing faction restrictions is so important so some of us and even angers some is the developer of this game - Cryptic and their history with this game and our faction in particular.
Now, I'm sure that apart from a handfull of trolls most of the people proposing and supporting such changes have good intentions at heart in terms of adding more options and dynamic for the lower population of the KDF to start queues, and not harming the faction on purpose.
Where the disconnect happens between the ones supporting such changes and ones adamantly against them is Cryptic's development of STO. Time and time again they've shown no capacity to handle multiple factions, they've shown no will to properly support anything other than Fed, they've shown almost no care for the troubles or the players that play on the red side of the game.
So, in Cryptic's own terms when stuff like this (faction restrictions. merges) happens, it usually means "great, another part of the game where we won't need to pay attention, not even in our sub-consciousness". Just see this new "alliance", for KDF players it meant missions consisting of buying groceries and cooking with friggin' Neelix.
To put it as simple as I can, whenever someone asks for somekind of a merge between the factions on the forum, pure/mainly KDF players/fans see that and think - "Oh great, another person pushing Cryptic to just merge and stop developing the faction and gameplay I love". And then some tend to get or maybe just sound angry and upset. The reason I actually made this reply is because I wanted to say to you or everyone that supports such changes - don't take some of that anger personally, as it's usually not adressed at you (the players), but rather at Cryptic and their policies we can't do anything about, which tends to be frustrating.
Or we can just log-in STO.
Couldn't have said it better myself
Shanara: Oh a present, from Neelix with love xoxo (opens it) a cookbook?! I WILL KILL THAT PTAQ! Neelix is the cryptic devs, the cookbook is a patch that says that feds can go to Qonos and feds and kdfs don't need factional teams.
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
Dead on the Darsek.
R.I.P
Grand Master Thotok, son of Koloth, I.K.S. Sompek==Dahar Master Shanara, I.K.S. Balth'Quv
Admiral R'Tath V'Tirex, R.R.W. Dhael Glohha'enh==Commander Ta'eth Korval, R.R.W Hachae ch'Rhian==Admiral Vranuk, R.R.W Delevhas
This all makes sense.
I used to be one of the "allow cross faction whatever" because, frankly, I was the only one in my fleet playing KDF side 99% of the time.
Once I moved my characters into my personal storage fleet, I suddenly didn't feel the need for cross faction anything, unless in rare circumstances (or private STF queues). I feel that if you will not play Klingon side, you really don't want to team with KDF people all that badly.
Now my lone FED alt is gathering dust, and I'm fine with that.
I use KDF Defera if I feel like doing Defera stuff. Works out pretty well, and I feel 0 need for cross faction teaming there.
If you will recall, the Maquis problem started in the first place because the Cardassians were illegally arming their own colonists and encouraging them to attack Federation-held planets. There wouldn't have been a source of irregular soldiers to fight the Klingons in the Hromi Cluster if the Klingons hadn't invaded and started deliberately targeting civilians. The Federation was not the aggressor.
You've got your cause and effect completely mixed up.
Active enemy my TRIBBLE. The Klingons were the first to attack the Federation, whom they had previously relieved of any treaty obligations by withdrawing by choice from the treaty in question.
What evidence? All there's evidence for is that the Klingons like to conquer things and then justify them after the fact.
Justification after the fact. The Klingons had already withdrawn from the treaty and the war was over so there was no longer any reason for the Federation to get involved.
No, you've got evidence the Gorn were under a hostile foreign influence. Starfleet Intelligence was dealing with the Undine on their own turf but the thing is, they don't go off half-cocked and just kill the guy. They gather evidence and deal with the problem methodically.
J'mpok made absolutely no bones about why he wanted to attack the Federation. It had nothing to do with "beating alien influence out of the Federation" and everything to do with expanding the Empire's borders by conquest at the Federation's expense. Do you then deny the Federation has the right to defend itself against foreign aggression?
All those events happened inside of the last year. Prior to that there is suspicion, but no hard proof, that there are Undine in Federation guise. And the Klingons were the ones who voided the treaty by withdrawing from it and then launching an invasion of Federation territory deliberately targeted against civilian colonists. And there is no "again" because the Klingons were factually wrong the first time and with disastrous consequences for everyone in the quadrant.
That is why the Federation refused to get involved: The last time the Klingons went off half-cocked babbling about alien influence, the Cardassians were completely innocent and the Klingons were the ones who were infiltrated. Guess what happened next? The Klingons' unprovoked, unjustified aggression drove the Cardies to join up with the Dominion and the result was one of the most devastating wars in galactic history. Not even the Klingons came off pretty: if Sloan is to be believed they needed at least ten years to recover from their losses.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
By the way, I looked up the text of the Khitomer Accords in an official (though non-canon) source, one which as far as I can tell has no conflicts with STO canon. Article III is the key point. The Federation did not see any aid or assistance to be appropriate because the Klingons were repeating history to the letter, and just like happened last time, the Klingons threw a tantrum and broke off the treaty altogether. At which point the Federation was no longer legally required to do anything to help them.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
We do know that Star Fleet was Undine infiltrated, maybe that's why SF ignored the KDF? Why help those bent on finding you?
To assume that the whole debacle that led through PT2409 to the current story in STO is the fault of the KDF is idiotic. Everyone in STO has had a hand in the idiocy that currently exists. No one is beyond blaim, including the federation. Which is why they said as much in the FEs with Tuvok.
R.I.P
i think the Klingon point of view is they were already supposed to be on our side , Why should we need to prove anything if immediate action was deemed as needed. sitting around and talking about it is not the Klingon way. acting on things in a aggressive manor is . and the feds know all this about the Klingons if they were not prepared to deal with it they never should have entered the agreement.
and it is also the Klingon way to take a promis as meaning at all costs. so the feds give their word sign a treaty / alliance pact or what ever then fail to follow through. for a Klingon that is grounds to attack in and of itself. to regain honor lost by being deceived.
Really? i thought it was because the federation entered into an agreement with the Cards that ceded some previously held planets to the cardassians. then the cards told those people to to get out and they did not want to. and that is when the cards encouraged the attacks. but not on federation held planets on their own planets that had former federation colonies on them. those colonists resisted and the federation tried to get them out but they did not want to give up all they had worked for and resisted.
if it had been as you said and the cards were attcking federation planets major hostilties would have broken out and Janeway would not have been trying to apprehend chakotay. and picard and ensign roe would not have been on secrete missions to catch maquis, the occupation of bajor would not have ended and Wesley would not have hooked up with his traveler buddy.