Folks are passionate about the game, yeah? If they see things they don't like, they're going to criticize those things, right? I don't agree with everybody (sometimes it seems like I don't agree with anybody)...but unless they're saying something patently false or against the Forum TOS, I'm not going to argue against their right to share their opinions. I'll argue my opinion...I'll strongly argue my opinion if they're looking to make a change to something I'd prefer a different way.
But if nobody talked about what was wrong with stuff or the ways in which things could improved...where would we be then? Doesn't mean folks can't toss some attaboys for jobs well done...but it does kind of mean we can't stick our heads in the sand, yeah?
Then why do you keep doing it? It's laughable reading that part of your post and reading the rest...where that's what you do. How about you offer your feedback and let others offer their feedback, eh? Saavy?
you can 'prefer' single player style 'progression' that constantly grants more power with each level all you like. that will not ever change that in multi-player, such a system is the a destructive anti-thesis of any kind of balance.
I have always thought of this game as a single player game, since I grew up watching one captain run one ship that never needed any help from their outside agency. This is Kirk and Picard to the nth degree. The two best captains Trek has ever had...in actual ships that move through space, not a space station. I suppose John Archer counts too. It's not his fault his lines and his crew's lines were sometimes awful.
Back to my point though, Star Trek, in the main is about One ship, One captain, One crew...who sometimes encounter other entities from their own faction, but that is more the exception than the rule.
except that isnt the situation you are defending at all.
what you are defending is
tom is level ten, and his stats are fixed at 10.
jerry is level 15, and his stats all get a +5 bonus over tom.
these two are to compete with their stats as clear modifier.
jerry has this bonus just for being around more.
Exactly what is your issue?
Because the position you are defending appears to be both utterly illogical and basically whining.
A person who invests more time and effort into something is going to be more powerful than one who does not. That doesn't vary, whether we are talking about games or real life.
Everyone is complaining about this issue, but the only place players 'compete' is in PVP, which is basically irrelevant at this point due to a lack of developer focus and and an abundance of bugs and balance issues.
Please present a logical argument as to why if Tom spends 1 hour a week on the game and no money and Jerry spends 20 hours a week on the game and $50 that Tom should be 'competitive' with Jerry.
If you use the word fairness, or if that concept crosses your mind, please consider the concept of fair. 'Everyone a level field' is something that has never, ever happened except in specially balanced situations like GW PVP.
If the root of your concern is that Tom cannot match Jerry unless he is willing to expend money (in addition to time) then I am going to (once I stop laughing) point out that you are expecting way too much from a P2W game under the aegis of one of the most profit-driven development studios owned by the most profit-driven publisher on the market.
To the OP:
I am sure someone will lambast me for suggesting the obvious, but at this point the horse has been beaten into paste: Any argument that the game problems can be magically 'fixed' by simple actions A, B, and C are usually completely worthless. They only look at things from a player perspective, never how the company can
a) make more money than from what they are doing with no additional cost or
b) provide a convincing reason to invest in this with a solid return
Saying 'it will bring players back' is worthless if these are F2P or those who don't spend. Saying it will improve people's satisfaction with the game will also not solve things if they don't spend.
Improving the rate at which Spec Points are acquired is self-defeating, if the entire point of the mechanic is to time-gate power levels. And given that the time-gate is both the thing people have problems with AND the center mechanic of the monetization efforts, I'm guessing complaining about it is about as useful as trying to put out a fire with pure liquid oxygen.
A Fleet is not made up of only capitol ships.......It has gunboats,corvetts,destroyers,Escorts Cruisers,battlships, Carriers,Tenders,supply ships, Ect
STO gates support ships and lesser ships destroyers/corvetts/escorts/cruisers ( Tier 1-4 ) ships away from the ( T-5) ships an (T-6) ships with the story leveling up missions
It would be very easy to incorporate these new players into the current content so they can level up with there fleet...The mechanics to do so are already in the game. It would not be hard to assess a point value on a player and grant a number of points to fill up a STF
Not incorporating all of the players into the content is the BIGGEST failing of this game
Gating leveling up players from Vet players is BAD
Gating level 50s from 60s is BAD
Allowing super players to gang up in 5 man groups is BAD
If you had a point system that reflected a players power then all you would have to do is set a point value to create a group to do a stf or a pvp for that matter
Example
If Mary has 50k DPS and 50K defense for a total of 100k points
Bob has 25k dps and 25k defense for a total of 50k points
Bob could bring a wingman of 50k total point to start a pvp match with mary
placing a system like this for pvp and pve should be done it is the only way to deal with players with such wide difference in power against a STF that has static enemys and pvp groups
What we have has clearly failed
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Progression - I want to start with saying that I do understand getting spec points shouldn't be easy. I do understand the need to slow progression, but some things just went wrong when you set up the metrics. I can only encourage you: log in to live, whitout dev magic, in your off hours, and try to level a character. Try to level more characters. You'll see what I'm talking about when I say the feeling of progression is missing from the game entirely at the moment. Yeah, of course, for the hard-hard-hard-nolifer-hard-core one percent, it's not a problem, they will grind themselves through whatever you put in front of them. But the majority of your playerbase is of regular people, with finite time, who just wants to have fun, wants to play in the fantastic ST universe, wants to impersonate a Starfleet/KDF/Rom captain, or more than one captains, and finds no joy in repeating a rather boring content (killing patrol mobs) over-and-over-and-over to get points in a snail's pace.
Looks like it takes about 2-3 months in average past level 50 to max out. Unless the assumption was wrong or some exploit was used. There was more than 1 person who are attesting to be maxed as of now. So it seems progression has been slowed down but NOT to a virtual crawl. Unless these people have been tight up to their PCs doing Argala 24x7...progression should not be an issue :P
Lets just say the endgame of the game has become more of a Chore than a recreation.
And the reputation of the game outside its community is apparent . I was watching a Twitch stream which a community of gamers that play sci fi mmos and games talking about other games and when STO came up in the conversation it was very negative on the endgame grind of the game.
With them stating its the worst end game grind they have ever seen . they made mention to the current released content as someone who played the game recently not someone that hasnt played in a while .
so its not just here in these forums that see the issues with the game but outside it as well.
games are ****ing receation, not a job.
its not an investment seminar or any other kind of business meeting.
I love how your mouth effortlessly outruns your brain.
No, a game is not a job, and it is recreation. So is, the last time I checked, playing softball, and so is Call of Duty, and so is go-kart racing.
If I spend 10 hours a week playing softball and you spend two , I will be better than you.
If I spend 5 hours a week playing COD and you spend 1 hour, I will be better than you.
If I spend $500 on a custom go-kart and you use a stock one, I will be better than you.
You seem to hold the opinion that you should get all the benefits of bothering to expend time and effort on something without having to do so because it is 'recreation'. The entire point of such games, however, is to expend time and effort to build your characters up to be 'better' -- and if you aren't willing to spend the same time as another person, to complain you can't compete only makes you sound petty, stupid, or quite possibly both.
That's why I called it illogical. "I want to be a millionare without doing anything becuz it's unfair that guy is after busting his butt'" is very obviously stupid. "I want all the shinys and skillz because I can't have fun with others who have them after working for them" is basically the same thing.
anywhere you have players interacting with other players, and one set doing better, you have competition to do better, even if its just finding the path of least resistance.
Competition implies that you and another person are attempting to accomplish something. Yet your basic premise is that the amount of time and money you spend in the game shouldn't matter, so how are you going to measure this competition?
Skill? Sorry to tell you but if I play three times as much as you do you will still not be as good as I am.
Fun? Seriously, has it not occurred to you that 90% of the people in this game are soloing at this point and could care less what you achieve or don't achieve?
since at its core pay to win is all about granting one group a position from which they can victimise others as a hobby, on account of spending money.
Carefully explain to me how this is not P2W with the whole T6/T5U split, the cost of upgrades in terms of DIL, and the outrageous requirements for R&D that can really only be met by ZEN packs.
at exactly are you winning?
the name of the game is cyclical obsolescence.
Ding! We have a winner. Why do you think so many people are leaving? The only ones you are going to have left are the people who PLAY just to 'feel better than you' because they spend a bunch of time and money on the game. Your argument, then, defeats itself:
Premise : Fun should not be sacrificed for a P2W system that only rewards people willing to waste time and money instead of casuals
Problem: Game's primary customer base is now comprised mostly of people willing to pay money and spend time on the system as is
Conclusion: The company isn't going to do what you want since that would cost them money.
not sure if it'll mean anything, but i tweeted the link of this thread to geko and he said, i quote "we are taking a very close look at all rewards for repeatable content."
Defiant
RnD and upgrade needs less RNG. Less lottery. Something has to change.
not sure if it'll mean anything, but i tweeted the link of this thread to geko and he said, i quote "we are taking a very close look at all rewards for repeatable content."
I hope it's a fast look. They said, when Delta Rising launched, that they would be taking feedback into account and adjusting things. I haven't seen that happen yet.
I hope it's a fast look. They said, when Delta Rising launched, that they would be taking feedback into account and adjusting things. I haven't seen that happen yet.
he didn't said an ETA, just this. i'm skeptic too, but the fact that he answered suggests that he actually read the thread (or at least the OP), so... one can hope...
Defiant
RnD and upgrade needs less RNG. Less lottery. Something has to change.
Here's my $0,02 (even made it to someone's sig-line, LOL):
* Cut Upgrade Dilithium cost in half;
* Undo any and all XP nerfs.
And, as a general rule of thumb, don't keep treating your customers like your enemy, that you feel you have to stifle/nerf at every corner.
If I spend 10 hours a week playing softball and you spend two , I will be better than you.
If I spend 5 hours a week playing COD and you spend 1 hour, I will be better than you.
If I spend $500 on a custom go-kart and you use a stock one, I will be better than you.
So, for you, STO is all about being better than others?
My understanding of games is to have fun. I have no problem with other doing better than me. I had fun before DR and it's grind. Now it became a chore and the fun is gone. Even worse, gambling is being extended to all game mechanics.
I understand the need for infinite progression. But I also understand why the specialization point system is flawed. The fact is, there isn't enough specialization points to both have a "reasonable" rate of obtaining them AND the infinite progression system that Cryptic wants merely because of the fact that the high cap for completing one primary and one secondary specialty each is a very long time, especially if we are to be expected to play normally, rather than grind.
It goes completely the opposite against why the Reputation Trait system was implemented. As it takes so long to reach the full primary/secondary specialty cap, new players will be painfully behind veterans, not to mention people that don't grind vs people that do. It is effectively no different than the power creep found in the old rep system.
The solution? Release tons more specialization trees VERY quickly so you can keep your infinite progression AND lower skillpoint requirements by a lot so that it's not insane to obtain one spec tree.
my premise isnt that time and effort shouldn't matter, its that one person shouldnt be able to buy clear statistical advantage or have to spend 60+ hours to grind through a time gated power system before they can begin to play fairly.
Welcome to MMOs. The best gear is usually the hardest to get. It's simply the nature of the beast.
So, for you, STO is all about being better than others?
Curious, I didn't get that from his post. Hell, even if you were to ignore everything else that they said and just focus on the snippet you quoted...no idea how you came to that conclusion.
Comments
Don't talk bash a game you want to play.
Folks are passionate about the game, yeah? If they see things they don't like, they're going to criticize those things, right? I don't agree with everybody (sometimes it seems like I don't agree with anybody)...but unless they're saying something patently false or against the Forum TOS, I'm not going to argue against their right to share their opinions. I'll argue my opinion...I'll strongly argue my opinion if they're looking to make a change to something I'd prefer a different way.
But if nobody talked about what was wrong with stuff or the ways in which things could improved...where would we be then? Doesn't mean folks can't toss some attaboys for jobs well done...but it does kind of mean we can't stick our heads in the sand, yeah?
Then why do you keep doing it? It's laughable reading that part of your post and reading the rest...where that's what you do. How about you offer your feedback and let others offer their feedback, eh? Saavy?
Experience is a timegate, no?
How can any environment be "fair" if you allow players of different experience together?
How many acronyms does one game have to have?
Please, what are BNP, APC, and RNG?
Borg Neural Processor
Ancient Power Cells
Random Number Generation
Basically the odds of getting them out of the Daily/Hourly boxes.
I have always thought of this game as a single player game, since I grew up watching one captain run one ship that never needed any help from their outside agency. This is Kirk and Picard to the nth degree. The two best captains Trek has ever had...in actual ships that move through space, not a space station. I suppose John Archer counts too. It's not his fault his lines and his crew's lines were sometimes awful.
Back to my point though, Star Trek, in the main is about One ship, One captain, One crew...who sometimes encounter other entities from their own faction, but that is more the exception than the rule.
Thank you kindly sir
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Exactly what is your issue?
Because the position you are defending appears to be both utterly illogical and basically whining.
A person who invests more time and effort into something is going to be more powerful than one who does not. That doesn't vary, whether we are talking about games or real life.
Everyone is complaining about this issue, but the only place players 'compete' is in PVP, which is basically irrelevant at this point due to a lack of developer focus and and an abundance of bugs and balance issues.
Please present a logical argument as to why if Tom spends 1 hour a week on the game and no money and Jerry spends 20 hours a week on the game and $50 that Tom should be 'competitive' with Jerry.
If you use the word fairness, or if that concept crosses your mind, please consider the concept of fair. 'Everyone a level field' is something that has never, ever happened except in specially balanced situations like GW PVP.
If the root of your concern is that Tom cannot match Jerry unless he is willing to expend money (in addition to time) then I am going to (once I stop laughing) point out that you are expecting way too much from a P2W game under the aegis of one of the most profit-driven development studios owned by the most profit-driven publisher on the market.
To the OP:
I am sure someone will lambast me for suggesting the obvious, but at this point the horse has been beaten into paste: Any argument that the game problems can be magically 'fixed' by simple actions A, B, and C are usually completely worthless. They only look at things from a player perspective, never how the company can
a) make more money than from what they are doing with no additional cost or
b) provide a convincing reason to invest in this with a solid return
Saying 'it will bring players back' is worthless if these are F2P or those who don't spend. Saying it will improve people's satisfaction with the game will also not solve things if they don't spend.
Improving the rate at which Spec Points are acquired is self-defeating, if the entire point of the mechanic is to time-gate power levels. And given that the time-gate is both the thing people have problems with AND the center mechanic of the monetization efforts, I'm guessing complaining about it is about as useful as trying to put out a fire with pure liquid oxygen.
What is wrong with the game
Players gated apart from each other number 1
A Fleet is not made up of only capitol ships.......It has gunboats,corvetts,destroyers,Escorts Cruisers,battlships, Carriers,Tenders,supply ships, Ect
STO gates support ships and lesser ships destroyers/corvetts/escorts/cruisers ( Tier 1-4 ) ships away from the ( T-5) ships an (T-6) ships with the story leveling up missions
It would be very easy to incorporate these new players into the current content so they can level up with there fleet...The mechanics to do so are already in the game. It would not be hard to assess a point value on a player and grant a number of points to fill up a STF
Not incorporating all of the players into the content is the BIGGEST failing of this game
Gating leveling up players from Vet players is BAD
Gating level 50s from 60s is BAD
Allowing super players to gang up in 5 man groups is BAD
If you had a point system that reflected a players power then all you would have to do is set a point value to create a group to do a stf or a pvp for that matter
Example
If Mary has 50k DPS and 50K defense for a total of 100k points
Bob has 25k dps and 25k defense for a total of 50k points
Bob could bring a wingman of 50k total point to start a pvp match with mary
placing a system like this for pvp and pve should be done it is the only way to deal with players with such wide difference in power against a STF that has static enemys and pvp groups
What we have has clearly failed
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
This point is flawed...progression is NOT an issue as proven by:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1347861
Looks like it takes about 2-3 months in average past level 50 to max out. Unless the assumption was wrong or some exploit was used. There was more than 1 person who are attesting to be maxed as of now. So it seems progression has been slowed down but NOT to a virtual crawl. Unless these people have been tight up to their PCs doing Argala 24x7...progression should not be an issue :P
And the reputation of the game outside its community is apparent . I was watching a Twitch stream which a community of gamers that play sci fi mmos and games talking about other games and when STO came up in the conversation it was very negative on the endgame grind of the game.
With them stating its the worst end game grind they have ever seen . they made mention to the current released content as someone who played the game recently not someone that hasnt played in a while .
so its not just here in these forums that see the issues with the game but outside it as well.
Answer: next to nothing, in other terms "lim(wrong) --> ∞"
I love how your mouth effortlessly outruns your brain.
No, a game is not a job, and it is recreation. So is, the last time I checked, playing softball, and so is Call of Duty, and so is go-kart racing.
If I spend 10 hours a week playing softball and you spend two , I will be better than you.
If I spend 5 hours a week playing COD and you spend 1 hour, I will be better than you.
If I spend $500 on a custom go-kart and you use a stock one, I will be better than you.
You seem to hold the opinion that you should get all the benefits of bothering to expend time and effort on something without having to do so because it is 'recreation'. The entire point of such games, however, is to expend time and effort to build your characters up to be 'better' -- and if you aren't willing to spend the same time as another person, to complain you can't compete only makes you sound petty, stupid, or quite possibly both.
That's why I called it illogical. "I want to be a millionare without doing anything becuz it's unfair that guy is after busting his butt'" is very obviously stupid. "I want all the shinys and skillz because I can't have fun with others who have them after working for them" is basically the same thing.
Competition implies that you and another person are attempting to accomplish something. Yet your basic premise is that the amount of time and money you spend in the game shouldn't matter, so how are you going to measure this competition?
Skill? Sorry to tell you but if I play three times as much as you do you will still not be as good as I am.
Fun? Seriously, has it not occurred to you that 90% of the people in this game are soloing at this point and could care less what you achieve or don't achieve?
Carefully explain to me how this is not P2W with the whole T6/T5U split, the cost of upgrades in terms of DIL, and the outrageous requirements for R&D that can really only be met by ZEN packs.
Go on, I'll wait.
Ding! We have a winner. Why do you think so many people are leaving? The only ones you are going to have left are the people who PLAY just to 'feel better than you' because they spend a bunch of time and money on the game. Your argument, then, defeats itself:
Premise : Fun should not be sacrificed for a P2W system that only rewards people willing to waste time and money instead of casuals
Problem: Game's primary customer base is now comprised mostly of people willing to pay money and spend time on the system as is
Conclusion: The company isn't going to do what you want since that would cost them money.
Pftt, you clearly have no idea how many whales play this game, son. Or how many people can tear through the elite stuff.
RnD and upgrade needs less RNG. Less lottery. Something has to change.
I hope it's a fast look. They said, when Delta Rising launched, that they would be taking feedback into account and adjusting things. I haven't seen that happen yet.
Free Tibet!
he didn't said an ETA, just this. i'm skeptic too, but the fact that he answered suggests that he actually read the thread (or at least the OP), so... one can hope...
RnD and upgrade needs less RNG. Less lottery. Something has to change.
* Cut Upgrade Dilithium cost in half;
* Undo any and all XP nerfs.
And, as a general rule of thumb, don't keep treating your customers like your enemy, that you feel you have to stifle/nerf at every corner.
So, for you, STO is all about being better than others?
My understanding of games is to have fun. I have no problem with other doing better than me. I had fun before DR and it's grind. Now it became a chore and the fun is gone. Even worse, gambling is being extended to all game mechanics.
Holy Grail of Gamification is Addiction | 5 Ways to Accomplisch | and the Psychology of Freemium
For some, they can only have fun if they prevent others from having fun.
Others have fun doing their own thing and don't have fun interacting with others.
Some don't care what others are doing, others validate their existence by what they can do that others can't.
It goes completely the opposite against why the Reputation Trait system was implemented. As it takes so long to reach the full primary/secondary specialty cap, new players will be painfully behind veterans, not to mention people that don't grind vs people that do. It is effectively no different than the power creep found in the old rep system.
The solution? Release tons more specialization trees VERY quickly so you can keep your infinite progression AND lower skillpoint requirements by a lot so that it's not insane to obtain one spec tree.
...did I hit the nail on the head?
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My character Tsin'xing
Curious, I didn't get that from his post. Hell, even if you were to ignore everything else that they said and just focus on the snippet you quoted...no idea how you came to that conclusion.