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More Updates to Rewards and PvE Queue Difficulty
pwgroverclvlnd
Member Posts: 11 Cryptic Developer
Another round of PvE queue updates have been made and are making their way to Tribble for extra testing. As mentioned previously, this is an ongoing effort to improve STO and this update (and those that came before) are not the entirety of what will be done.
New to Tribble this week:
No Win Scenario
The No Win Scenario, both Starfleet and Klingon versions, has been removed from the PvE queue list. With the increase in maximum player level from 50 to 60, we no longer feel this queue is accomplishing its job of providing an intense escalating challenge where players really have to struggle to advance to the later waves. We do have plans to revisit this queue in the near future and rebuild it so it can continue to live up to its name.
Mine Trap
The rewards for successfully completing this PvE queue have been increased by an additional 50% above what they have been previously. Additionally, the failure rewards have been increased by an additional 150% above their existing rewards.
Nukara Prime: Transdimensional Tactics
The rewards for successfully completing the Advanced and Elite versions of this PvE queue have been increased by an additional 100% above what they have been previously (the Normal versions success rewards remain unchanged). Additionally, the failure rewards for the Normal version of this PvE queue have been increased by an additional 50% above their existing rewards (the Advanced and Elite versions failure rewards remain unchanged).
Vault Shuttle Event
We have fixed a bug that was preventing players from accessing the Advanced version of this queue (using the PvE queue window to enter the Advanced version would take you to the Normal version). Additionally, the rewards for successfully completing this PvE queue have been increased by an additional 150% above the existing rewards.
NPC Hitpoint / Shield Bonus Scaling Changes (Advanced and Elite difficulties only)
Shortly after the launch of Delta Rising, we noticed the effects of what turned out to be a mathematical error in the way multiple Hitpoint and Shield buffing passive powers were interacting with one another. This interaction was occurring only on a small number of NPCs which met both of the following criteria:
NPCs meeting both of the above criteria do not scale at the same rate as the rest of the NPCs in the game. These NPCs are mainly the "boss type" NPCs seen in queues, but this change, because of how it interacts with the aforementioned calculations, will effect different NPCs to different extremes.
It will NOT change the Hitpoint/Shield values on any NPC encountered on a Normal Difficulty map. The vast majority of NPCs encountered on Advanced and Elite Difficulty will also see no change, as they do not rely upon additional Hitpoint/Shield boosts other than those supplied by the Difficulty setting.
A few examples of specific high-hitpoint Boss NPCs that will be affected are:
One of the most widespread issues that this will resolve, is that NPCs on the Ground that rely upon a hitpoint boost to offset a lack of shields (Undine, Bluegills, Salt Vampires, etc.) will see an across-the-board increase in their health after this change. Although this will end up appearing as a 33-50% increase in maximum hitpoints for these types of enemies on Advanced and Elite difficulty, it will actually bring them in line with every other NPC in the game. We will be monitoring this particular aspect of the changes to see if it must be tuned separately.
For those that are interested, Ive included a section about the math involved in this change below (titled The Math).
Increase to Skillpoints and Expertise from NPC Kills Base on Difficulty Modifier
We will also be increasing the SP and Expertise bonus for NPCs killed in Advanced and Elite mode. Numeric rewards in Advanced difficulty will increase from 125% to 150%, while in Elite difficulty they will increase from 200% to 250%.
Charles Gray & Jeremy Randall
Lead Content Designer, Systems Designer
Star Trek Online
The Math
For clarity's sake, we'll share the full mathematical issue, and its effects. For the purpose of this demonstration, let's use simplified numbers to illustrate the point of how this hitpoint buff interacts with the Difficulty Scaling buffs, and the NPC's base hitpoints (please note these are example values for simplicity, and not the true values in the game).
Base Hitpoints Value = 1
Elite Difficulty Hitpoints Modifier = 3
So here is a simple formula on how a typical NPC would scale:
1 * 3 = 3
So typical critters in Elite mode has 3x as many HP as in Basic mode. Now let's take the Tholian Project Leader as an example. This boss NPC is found in the queue map "Transdimensional Tactics" which can be played at Advanced and Elite setting, and he relies upon a passive Hitpoint Buff. The passive hitpoint buff on this particular NPC has a very high value.
Tholian Project Leader Passive Hitpoint Buff Modifier = 12
Under the existing system, as it currently sits on Holodeck, these figures interact incorrectly. Their mathematical relationship could be presented as:
1 * (3 + 12) = 15
This results in the final Hitpoint value on Elite being far lower proportionally than other NPCs. By design, the equation was expected to be presented as:
(1 * 12) * 3 = 36
As you can see, the difference can be fairly drastic. This particular NPC possesses the highest Hitpoint Buff of any NPC in the entire game and is an extreme example. Most Boss NPCs have buff magnitudes in the 1-5 range, rather than being in the ~12 neighborhood.
New to Tribble this week:
No Win Scenario
The No Win Scenario, both Starfleet and Klingon versions, has been removed from the PvE queue list. With the increase in maximum player level from 50 to 60, we no longer feel this queue is accomplishing its job of providing an intense escalating challenge where players really have to struggle to advance to the later waves. We do have plans to revisit this queue in the near future and rebuild it so it can continue to live up to its name.
Mine Trap
The rewards for successfully completing this PvE queue have been increased by an additional 50% above what they have been previously. Additionally, the failure rewards have been increased by an additional 150% above their existing rewards.
Nukara Prime: Transdimensional Tactics
The rewards for successfully completing the Advanced and Elite versions of this PvE queue have been increased by an additional 100% above what they have been previously (the Normal versions success rewards remain unchanged). Additionally, the failure rewards for the Normal version of this PvE queue have been increased by an additional 50% above their existing rewards (the Advanced and Elite versions failure rewards remain unchanged).
Vault Shuttle Event
We have fixed a bug that was preventing players from accessing the Advanced version of this queue (using the PvE queue window to enter the Advanced version would take you to the Normal version). Additionally, the rewards for successfully completing this PvE queue have been increased by an additional 150% above the existing rewards.
NPC Hitpoint / Shield Bonus Scaling Changes (Advanced and Elite difficulties only)
Shortly after the launch of Delta Rising, we noticed the effects of what turned out to be a mathematical error in the way multiple Hitpoint and Shield buffing passive powers were interacting with one another. This interaction was occurring only on a small number of NPCs which met both of the following criteria:
- Have a passive Hitpoint and/or Shield Buff that increases these pools above what an NPC of their Rank would usually have.
- Are found on Advanced and/or Elite Difficulty maps.
- Are found on Advanced and/or Elite Difficulty maps.
NPCs meeting both of the above criteria do not scale at the same rate as the rest of the NPCs in the game. These NPCs are mainly the "boss type" NPCs seen in queues, but this change, because of how it interacts with the aforementioned calculations, will effect different NPCs to different extremes.
It will NOT change the Hitpoint/Shield values on any NPC encountered on a Normal Difficulty map. The vast majority of NPCs encountered on Advanced and Elite Difficulty will also see no change, as they do not rely upon additional Hitpoint/Shield boosts other than those supplied by the Difficulty setting.
A few examples of specific high-hitpoint Boss NPCs that will be affected are:
- Tholian Project Leader (Transdimensional Tactics)
- The Spawnmother (Bug Hunt)
- The Borg Queen (Into the Hive, both Space and Ground)
- VSW Implacable (Battle of Korfez)
(It is worth noting that this will not affect the Crystalline Entity, as her scaling is handled in a different manner.)
- The Spawnmother (Bug Hunt)
- The Borg Queen (Into the Hive, both Space and Ground)
- VSW Implacable (Battle of Korfez)
(It is worth noting that this will not affect the Crystalline Entity, as her scaling is handled in a different manner.)
One of the most widespread issues that this will resolve, is that NPCs on the Ground that rely upon a hitpoint boost to offset a lack of shields (Undine, Bluegills, Salt Vampires, etc.) will see an across-the-board increase in their health after this change. Although this will end up appearing as a 33-50% increase in maximum hitpoints for these types of enemies on Advanced and Elite difficulty, it will actually bring them in line with every other NPC in the game. We will be monitoring this particular aspect of the changes to see if it must be tuned separately.
For those that are interested, Ive included a section about the math involved in this change below (titled The Math).
Increase to Skillpoints and Expertise from NPC Kills Base on Difficulty Modifier
We will also be increasing the SP and Expertise bonus for NPCs killed in Advanced and Elite mode. Numeric rewards in Advanced difficulty will increase from 125% to 150%, while in Elite difficulty they will increase from 200% to 250%.
Charles Gray & Jeremy Randall
Lead Content Designer, Systems Designer
Star Trek Online
The Math
For clarity's sake, we'll share the full mathematical issue, and its effects. For the purpose of this demonstration, let's use simplified numbers to illustrate the point of how this hitpoint buff interacts with the Difficulty Scaling buffs, and the NPC's base hitpoints (please note these are example values for simplicity, and not the true values in the game).
Base Hitpoints Value = 1
Elite Difficulty Hitpoints Modifier = 3
So here is a simple formula on how a typical NPC would scale:
1 * 3 = 3
So typical critters in Elite mode has 3x as many HP as in Basic mode. Now let's take the Tholian Project Leader as an example. This boss NPC is found in the queue map "Transdimensional Tactics" which can be played at Advanced and Elite setting, and he relies upon a passive Hitpoint Buff. The passive hitpoint buff on this particular NPC has a very high value.
Tholian Project Leader Passive Hitpoint Buff Modifier = 12
Under the existing system, as it currently sits on Holodeck, these figures interact incorrectly. Their mathematical relationship could be presented as:
1 * (3 + 12) = 15
This results in the final Hitpoint value on Elite being far lower proportionally than other NPCs. By design, the equation was expected to be presented as:
(1 * 12) * 3 = 36
As you can see, the difference can be fairly drastic. This particular NPC possesses the highest Hitpoint Buff of any NPC in the entire game and is an extreme example. Most Boss NPCs have buff magnitudes in the 1-5 range, rather than being in the ~12 neighborhood.
Cryptic Studios Team Member
Post edited by pwgroverclvlnd on
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Comments
Thanks for showing the numbers though. Very cool!
I think so. I think you may've overlooked this part:
Meanwhile, the XP increases being released WILL apply to all Kills on Advanced and Elite, regardless of whether or not the NPC in question is affected by the other bug fix.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
As for No Win Scenario...why pull it down before your planned update is ready?
Rest of the changes seem good. I really think Mine Trap should be a weekend event, though. That queue just doesn't draw the numbers it needs (and deserves, it's such a fun one).
Thanks for showing the math, too!
Reward XP from post-level 50 missions and patrols needs to be buffed so that only ONE playthrough is needed of the available content at a given level in order to progress to the next level. Replaying missions or patrols dozens of times just to eek out one level is not fun.
Unstick our progress, please.
These things have way too much HP already, this change is not needed.
And how about doing something about mission xp and leveling requirements instead?
No they don't. Bug Hunt "Elite" is a joke right now. Somehow I doubt just buffing up the final boss will remedy that, though.
But sorry to ask for this
Is there anyway you guys can look into
* the advanced/elite optional timers - 9 times put of 10 these conditions result in an almost certain fail for what ever reason thus make some ques unpleasant to play or just not worth the time to even try.
* the rate drop of certain rare materials again playing ques aren't rewarding enough of certain types this makes crafting extremely costly due to exchange purchasing that is needed to obtain the mats needed.
And lastly.
* is it possible to make Very Rare materials drop at random so the ques that don't pop which currently are the only source of these not the only way to obtain these.
Thank you
Ah yeah. Good point! :cool:
Now, in the last GroverCleveland mega-thread, there was talk that mission xp and doffing xp would be buffed/adjusted to compensate for the changes listed. Were you guys really just kidding? I'm not trying to be acerbic - I'm geninely curious as to what happened with those plans....
Since we're on the topic of Mine Trap and Difficulty, will players finally be able to use hard counters and break frees to avoid being confused and stunned by the Salt Vampires?
Mental Discipline (which is now a clicky) has never at any time worked with that particular enemy group, and I'm willing to venture a guess other powers that do similar break-frees also never worked.
Willpower has never made any noticable difference against the Salt Vampires in Mine Trap since its inception, even though players who put skill points/gear/consumables (Oxygenated Atlai River Water) do so expecting to resist or reduce the effects of crowd control mechanics.
This, 100%. When a single episode rewards on average ~10k XP, and you need around 150-200k XP per level (50-60), the game becomes far too grindy. It should not take an eternity to reach level cap. Instead, there should be more activities to do AT CAP. Leveling is supposed to be a preparation for things to come. Learning how to play the character, learn the game mechanics.
Pre-Delta Rising was fine in this regard, as a single episode was usually close to enough to gain 1 level (as it should be). Episodes can't be on equal pairing with the likes of "Quests", as most quests in MMOs take a matter of a few minutes. Episodes range in duration from 15-45 minutes to complete.
Suggestion:
Either buff the Delta Rising Episodes to reward 200% XP (from current), which would be a good start, or increase overall Mob XP in the content by 200%.
(In terms of quest rewards, it wouldn't hurt to get a bit more "rewarding" gear while leveling. Delta Rising content awards pretty much the same gear from every Episode.)
I just wanted to say thank you for doing that. Even with simple examples, I like the additional layer of understanding seeing something in that fashion can bring.
And uh...can we blame metrics for Bug Hunt instead of players? Heh, that it was the metrics that showed how many folks were just blowing right through that and not the players mentioning on the forums how folks could just blow right through that? :cool:
Bug Hunt is the only semi-practical way I've been able to score Ancient Power Cells reliably. I'm not going to be the one to rock the boat.
It was near impossible to finish Self Destruction in the pre-DR Elite with 5 people. I shudder to think of this on the new elite. :eek:
If they nerf Bug Hunt Elite ((nerf as not as playable as it is now)) what are the chances of removing the timers on advanced ques to make them puggable :-\
Also, numerous STF/mission have a ridiculously low xp reward, and sometimes, not at all. Can we have an xp reward added to the dyson BZ quests for example ? And we should be awarded more xp for doing queued content, I don't mean kill xp, but mission xp.
Currently, the average xp earned, total (mission and kill) is around 2K for most queue. While it's around 8K for Argala. First, that should be the opposite. A patrol should reward less than an stf. Then, even if an stf started to reward 8k xp, that would still mean 1500 stf to max out the spec tree.
Per character. Saying this is unreasonable is an understatement. Currently, we need 190 Argala to be able to train a BOFF into the new command spec tree.
In fact, even if the STF started to reward 75k xp, half what we need for a single spec point (IE 2 stf for a spec point), we would still need 160 STF to complete the trees ! That's a HUGE grind already ! I don't even think I have that much STF on my characters, and I play then since the game is f2p !
So yeah, baby step.
In terms of planned changes/corrections/adjustments, is this part of a larger re-evaluation strategy? Can we expect more in the foreseeable future? Or is this a band aid to be reviewed at a later date?
Do not remove this queue. It's the only way to get Fleet Marks and its the only 'challenging content' in the game at all. Keep it and do not replace it even when the new version is out. Call the new one like "Kobayashi Maru" but keep them both. Pointless to remove already created levels. Don't remove content from the game like the original Mirror Universe and Terradome.
NWS is still played a ton--just not on public queues as you have to have a strategy to win it. That is why we formed the private channels.
So, again, PLEASE DO NOT TAKE NWS AWAY as I am pretty sure it will never come back.
DPS Channels / League Info (STO Forums)
Second this
My character Tsin'xing
Terradome RIP July 25th, 2013...
180 STFs is sure a lot of grind, if you try to do them all in less than a week. if you do 6 STFs a day, you'll have the tree done by a month. I agree that the xp earned in a mission is very low but 75k per run is way too high aswell. At that rate many players would complete the tree in a week and since many queues are quick, it would be possible to get 3 - 4 points per hour that way.
I'd like to see the same xp reward we get from an argala completion in the normal difficulty PvE queues, and similar to HP multiplier, used in difficulty scaling, the queues could have a xp multiplier aswell, about 50% - 25% of the HP multiplier's value for that difficulty. That will give back the sense of acomplishment to the players and they'll participate in the queues much more often.
Argala runs render average 1,5k xp per minute on normal difficulty. Having all normal queues give that much xp should make levelling fun without require enermous amounts of grinding the same mission over and over, yet most can't complete an STF faster than an argala run so it would not speed up levelling, just make it more enjoyable for normal difficulty. Advanced and Elite, by the math, will level slower due to HP boost being higher than xp's, but still worth since they have better rewards.
Flying a 15k dps dual cannons hazari destroyer. Let the discussion begin!
You need to give new/casual players a way to get Borg Neural Processors and Ancient Power Cells etc, from normal queues.
Say 1 from normal, 2 from Adv and 3 from Elite. Or, allow them to be bought for say 100 Marks.
Otherwise, how are they meant to gear up for playing Adv+ queues?
It was okay in the old system, as Elite and Normal were very similar, but now the difference is much much greater.