Hey Veny. Gz on the results with the pathfinder on tac toon. I would like to add just a minor "clarity" because both in the thread name and now as stated from you the damage done by "exotic damage" may confuse a lot of players about your results.
No offense but from all parsers and the new ones its clear that huge part of your "exotic" damage is coming from the emission torpedo -
Thank you for taking the time to reply, and no offense taken, good sir. I get where you are coming from and certainly can see that point of view. I even anticipated that line of thinking.
Thus, this link in the original post has a spreadsheet that was very clear on what damage came from where. Whether it's torpedo, sci skills, whatever. I put this here because different people can look at "exotic" however they want, and the spreadsheet saves them the trouble of doing the math on different ways to look at the damage.
I'm not going to say whether any definition of "exotic" is right or wrong, because the definition of "exotic" is so varied
Part of the problem is there is no officially consistent definition of "exotic" damage. And depending on which you use, a certain effect may or may not be "exotic" Examples I've seen of people defining "exotic":
Any damage not "dealt by a weapon" (this used to be the old definition)
Any damage buffed by "exotic" boosting traits or skills, most especially including Particle Generators skill, but also any trait like Emitter Synergy, or Positive Feedback Loop.
Any damage buffed by PM trait (which increases crit on "exotic" damage done - but only some types)
Any damage done only by a science skill
Any of the above could be argued to be "exotic". And reasonable people could argue that you must have all 4, or 3 of the 4, or certain ones of the 4, or any of the 4.
Your definition is it MUST be all 4. I don't know if that's everyone's definition (and again, Cryptic has no consistently applied use of the word "exotic"). Meeting criteria #2 above is good enough for me - because all I care about is what buffs what.
Some would say that if a weapon was involved in any way, it can't be exotic. I don't 100% agree with that, but I won't argue with anyone that thinks so. I can sort of see both sides on that one.
Here are several types of damage sources, and you can see the different ways they can be considered "exotic" or not, depending on which of the 4 definitions above one thinks it has to fall under to be called "exotic"
The Particle Emission Plasma Cloud falls under #2
TBR falls under 1, 2, 3, 4
Deteriorating Deflector Damage falls under 1, 2, probably 4 (although it needs a piece of gear to work), NOT 3. [EDIT: #3/PM crit DOES apply if the triggering skill is Tyken's Rift, but not the other skills. See Post #43 later for proof from another captain].
Plasma DoT from beams, but coming from Sci Console falls under 2
Anyways, if Cryptic can't officially figure out "exotic" and consistently define it in game, I'm not gong to try either
All I know is that the Plasma cloud is buffed by things that buff "exotic" damage - thus it has synergy with a main item (the "exotic" damage) that distinguishes Science. I don't care if the delivery method is a torpedo, a console, or an Engr/Sci skill. That difference might matter to others though, and that's ok too
Aside from that nothing else to say - a sci ship with 4 tac abilities and even with 2 consoles but access to high end sci powers can/is doing great damage/dps for tactical toon. APA 50% total damage and ~46% severity for 30 sec, each ~1.3min is really something science toons can't afford. The Conservation of energy (30% exotic only) is good but its not 50% nor the crits (from PM trait) are going to get this ~46% damage. My point is the players using tactical toons with science ships should not be afraid of the loss of tac consoles or beam slots...you see the results of Veny are epic. After all the duty of tacs is to do damage and the best part is they can do it well with most ships.
See ya around for some runs mate.
I'm dying to try this Pathfinder build on my Sci toon. Right now I am highly confident I can get 25K+ and maybe 30K on it with a Sci Captain, in a PUG run of course.
That's because some of the Science Capt skills are more defensive, and thus I can live longer to do damage. I die multiple times on just about EVERY run in my Tac Captain, so that's a lot of clock time ticking away at zero damage done to kill my DPS score.
On the Sci Captain, I might actually take out two TAC BOFF and replace with Science (so 9 Science total), to really max the Secondary Deflector too. Some of my rough calculations say it might come out ahead for the Sci Capt.
I also think Conservation of Energy is a great skill that is competitive damage wise, on this build, with the TAC captain skills.
My Fed Sci Captain is only level 53 right now though, and I'll need to build his starship traits, etc. up (Why oh why Cryptic did you make alt life so hard in DR.....)
The Attack Power Alpha is not really 50% total damage, it's "base damage" - just like TAC consoles aren't really 38% damage boost. I can't figure out the exact boost, but I've heard some say it's as low as 12%. The Crit hit and Crit severity are real though.
Also, Conservation of Energy "should" impact 52% of the damage done in my 35K parse. Side note, per the prior posts, THIS is why I'm counting the Plasma Particle Emissions cloud as "Exotic Damage" Now if it doesn't boost the cloud damage, I'd be shocked (because every other "Exotic" booster buffs it)
Conservation of Energy is also up close to 100% of the time (I'm shot at the whole time in ISA, so it should 3 stack full time).
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Theory crafting math between TAC and SCI captain.
(APA1) Let's say APA only really gives a 24% overall boost for 1/3rd of the time (30s up, 90s CD), or 8%
(APA2) The APA 5% crit hit and 49.6% crit severity is a bit more complex. I'm running 16.5% crit hit, 85% severity baseline. The incremental 5% crit hit gives me (5% * (85%+14.6%)) = 6.73% more damage from the incremental crit hit.
The incremental 49.6% severity also boosts the original 16.5% crit hit by another 49.6%. (16.5%*49.6%) = 8.18% more damage.
(6.73% + 8.18%) * (30s/90s) = 5% more damage.
Adding the two parts together gives (8%+5%) = 13% more damage from use of APA. Now a good captain will time the APA for max effect, so it will be more than this.
_________
Meanwhile Conservation of Energy is 30% over the whole run, but only impacts the 52% that is "Exotic" damage. So that's 30% * 52% = 15.6% more.
15.6% boost with Conservation of Energy compared to 13% for APA (but more for APA if it's timed right) looks fairly competitive. TAC captain also has access to Tactical Fleet, that's 37% boost for 30s/300s, or another 3.7%, but again, usually more because it's timed well - However Sci Captain can deploy 5x Photonic Fleet in an 8 min PUG run too.
Overall that looks pretty close. Edge to Tac Captain for sure. But the Science Captain isn't that far behind.
Of course, I definitely want to test it myself on my Sci toon in ISA combat I could be totally wrong - but imagine if this theory crafting was close to accurate...
Good theories. What you said in your 1-4 points table about exotic damage is right but I am following an easier way to describe them:
- Neutral Exotic Damage: here falls all sources of "exotic" damage coming out from anything but not science powers.
- Science Exotic Damage: here falls all sources of "exotic" damage coming out from science powers only.
I am not sure if most players care for the difference between these 2 exotics - in the end its all "damage" and most of it is placed as "exotic" without a clarity. My point is that "neutral exotic" like the one coming from emission torpedo with ~3-4 prtg consoles and skills used on tactical ship/engineer - can also bring similar results if constantly firing it. But a "science exotic" like lets say Gravity Well/Tyken's Rift - can't deliver same results simply because most tactical and engineering ships wont have access to III version.
I think you would understand me now. My early statement for "clarity" was that I see you doing ~30-35% "neutral exotic" and ~15-20% "science exotic". (Again, it may not matter to most players but I am sure science players would care if let's say "30%" of their exotic damage is coming from 1 torpedo on top of their sci powers)
About APA vs COE - True the damage between them may not be equal but the CrtS is what is pushing the APA forward. In combination with particle manipulator trait (giving ~70% critH with full prtg skills and ~4 prtg consoles) it would lead to most exotics to crit while also have their damage increased by ~46% (severity) and that is far more than a simple crit coming out from a sci ship with COE.
Damage+Crtdamage(APA) vs Damage(COE)
There is also 1 bug I found about Emitter Synergy - 7.5% damage x3 -22.5% exotic damage. You can check the thread where I placed some numbers but it seems people dont care.
In theory it should be 30% from COE and 22.5% from ES - 52.5% exotic damage but...its not. After many ISA runs with and without it - the damage difference was negligible and I can't hide my disappointment. Point is most things in STO don't work as intended and can only get you confused. I just hope "pedal to the metal" will be worth the effort of getting it and its 10% damage will be noticed.
On the Sci Captain, I might actually take out two TAC BOFF and replace with Science (so 9 Science total), to really max the Secondary Deflector too. Some of my rough calculations say it might come out ahead for the Sci Capt.
I am using such setup on my full sci toon. Before pathfinder, the intrepid was 8 sci power ship, for deep science focus, and the lack of 2 more tac abilities could be a problem if using build similar to yours now - because you would need BFAW/APB and at least 1 torpedo (gravimetric before) now emission or both...with 1 or (if 2) 2 abilities for torpedoes - leading to the need of 4 tac powers.
After many builds during my time in sto focusing on the intrepid only - i came to the conclusion this ship should be used as the ultimate controller on the field when with sci toon. With the arrival of 2nd deflector - giving radiation damage to most sci debuff powers - the ship's potential has increased in performance but the need of max sci powers remains.
I am telling you this not to discourage you or something but to point out a fact about the focus and balance/synergy in this specific ship - If you focus on most aspects, you have to sacrifice something. It's just inevitable. In my pathfinder i have de-shield/power drain/de-armor/pull/hold/slow/disable/radiation/"science exotic"/"neutral exotic"/torpedoes - in both Single and AOE aspects (especially the disable from neutronic AOE). I do a lot of damage and (if a lot of npcs) a lot of dps but there is a limit and if I want to pass it I have to give up important elements from the science role in order to benefit the tactical role - a common mistake from a lot of "scis".
I've managed to hit 21k dps with my build (you can check it above) so I belive you might hit with no problem 25k with your current build on sci toon with 9 sci powers. But the thing of great importance when using sci toon is to be useful vs to do dps - because right now a well build sci ship with sci toon is going to do a lot of damage due to 2nd deflector bonuses and PMtrait - but sci have many focuses and if you choose only 1 you must sacrifice all others in order to raise it to the max.
I choose to have all sci toys in one basket, what would you choose?
PS: Sorry for writing so much about scis but I really do enjoy flying them above tac/eng. The reasons are simple - you have so many choices and different paths and its really interesting to play "smart" (no offense towards tac/engi community but I guess you would know what I mean). Tacs are expected to deal tons of dps and damage with any ship - Veny you prove that with pathfinder "2 tac console". Engis are "expected" to aggro all npcs (have seen this 5% of my time to happen or 40-50% in premade ). But scis - they are expected to do tons of things over simple damage.
So if you would like to jump to sci toon - think carefully what you want. For instance I see no reason to use exactly this build with sci toon - results will be logical - boost to overall exotic and downfall of beam damage. In the end you will simply use the tac toon with pathfinder cuz more dps. Sci is fun and if you never used it you will definitely enjoy it more than tacs
I do a lot of damage and (if a lot of npcs) a lot of dps but there is a limit and if I want to pass it I have to give up important elements from the science role in order to benefit the tactical role - a common mistake from a lot of "scis".
I think the roles between Captain careers are not as explicit as you define them. In the end, the Science Captain gets subuke beam debuff and a pair of shield/defense buffs, vs. the Tac captain's Fire on my mark debuff, and APA and Tac Fleet short damage burst. That's it.
Reciprocity puts Tac skills near Global CD, so that is no longer something a TAC captain's "Tactical Initiative" has an edge over other careers on. I rarely push the Tactical Initiative button in my runs.
Yes, there is a small difference between the career types, but not enough where a Sci "HAS" to play a support role, or a TAC "HAS" to do dps. In fact, I'll argue below that in my Pathfinder build, my ship does as much or more of the support roles as yours.
i came to the conclusion this ship should be used as the ultimate controller on the field when with sci toon
...
If you focus on most aspects, you have to sacrifice something. It's just inevitable. In my pathfinder i have de-shield/power drain/de-armor/pull/hold/slow/disable/radiation/"science exotic"/"neutral exotic"/torpedoes - in both Single and AOE aspects (especially the disable from neutronic AOE).
Here I'll argue that my Pathfinder build has similar "Science" or support powers to your build, and does them better AND adds more dps. And it has NOTHING to do with whether the Captain is a Sci or Tac.
(EVEN - slight edge to mine) We have 6 Science skills the same. GW3, TBR2, TachyB1, ST, HE, ESiphon1. We'll call that even, although mine are stronger because of my OSS1 taking Aux levels beyond 125 in bursts which I time to max effect.
(EVEN - slight edge to mine) You have Charged Particle Burst which is used to provide more dps for the Secondary Deflector (taking ships out of stealth doesn't matter in PVE). I'll discuss the shield removal aspect of CPB further below.
I have Feedback Pulse which is only used to provide more dps. We'll call it even with your CPB from a DPS perspective, although my FBP has been parsed to do more dps (it's also buffed by PM, the secondary deflector does not). FBP also works for any enemy shooting me at any range.
Now let's look at the differences and compare.
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Energy Drain
You have Tyken's Rift, up for 10s/30s (I'll assume you have DOFF's that always reduce CD, worse case is 10s/60s). It drains all enemies in a 3km AOE sphere.
I have Beam Fire at Will with Plasmonic Leech. Up for 10s/20s (assume Reciprocity takes it's CD down. At worse it's 10s/30s). It drains all enemies in a 10km sphere (anything within beam range)
Advantage - My build x2. It's up twice as often, has bigger affected volume / range. PLUS
+ my energy GAIN from Plasmonic Leech has better chance of staying at max x8 stack compared to yours because of FAW hitting more targets.
+ my BFAW will put out FAR more damage to ships then the Tyken's Rift.
+ I can stack this while Gravity Well is active. Tyken's Rift is on 15s CD after you use GW.
____________ Self Hull Heals
You have Engr Team - up every 30s. I don't know what yours heals for, but let's say its 5K per application. Heals damage already done.
I have Attack Power Beta temp hull - up every 15 sec w/ Reciprocity (every 30s worse case). Gives 7200 temporary hull (from Pilot Specialization), preventing damage from being done.
Advantage - My build x2-x3. Larger effect + more frequent availability = I have 2-3x the capacity to mitigate incoming hull damage than yours (and that's assuming we have the same resistance, when in reality mine is likely larger due to DOFF'd Aux 2 Damp). Your ET healing has to reach 14K to approach my APB added hull.
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Shield Heals:
You have Transfer Shield Strength to shield heal yourself or others, with shield heal over time (up 15s/45s).
I have Tactical Team (up 10s/15s with Reciprocity, worse case 10s/22s with Doff) to spread my shields around instantly, essentially giving me 4x the shield power since the NPC has to kill every shield facing to get to my hull.
Advantage - My build x2. Mine is up twice as often (2/3rds to 1/3rd), and the effective shield I'm making the NPC chew through is much larger. True, I can't heal others as often since I lack TSS. But I also have Sci Team 2, to your Sci Team 1 to heal self/others, and my ST2 is also Aux boosted with OSS1.
____________ Shield Removal (Same thing as Shield Drain because it does not matter HOW a shield is taken down):
We both have Tachyon Beam,
You have Charged Particle Burst AOE (45s CD, 5km radius), I do direct damage to shields via FAW AOE (20s CD, bigger 10km radius).
Advantage - My build. More shield removed when skill is active, longer range, twice as much uptime of skill. And I'm not double counting FAW. My FAW with 5 beams does more hull damage, shield removal and energy drain - compared to your Tyken's Rift and Charged Particle Burst combined.
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NPC Resistance Debuff
You have Ionic Turbulence, (60s CD, 30s with Reciprocity). with 3km AOE radius on target. I have Attack Power Beta (30s CD, 15s with Reciprocity). 10km radius of me, AOE with FAW.
Advantage - My Build by at least x3. Bigger volume (37 times more!!!) covered (MATH: 10/3 (radius) ^ 3 = 37 using volume of Sphere = 4/3 Pi * radius ^3 ), twice as much uptime.
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Disable:
You have viral trait and Neutronic Torpedo to make an AOE disable. 20s CD. It does NOT work with Torpedo Spread.
Advantage - Your build. No contest Although my experience is that the "disable" from the Viral Trait (Benthan cruiser) doesn't take down shields, etc. I haven't tested it that much though, to be honest. Once I found it doesn't work with Torpedo Spread, I dropped it.
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Hold/Slow
We both have GW3 and TBR2. And Particle Emission Plasma Cloud from the torpedo, with Spread.
You also have Ionic Turbulence.
Advantage - Your build. Although I can take out Aux 2 Damp and slot in Ionic Turbulence in my build as well - so this advantage is merely my preference of wanting speed/turn so that my "other" skills can be in range/arc faster.
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Seven "Science Role" items where our builds differ. My build is arguably much better at 5 of them (and none of them were because I'm a Tactical vs a Sci Captain!). Yours much better at 2.
And the things we do the same, mine does slightly better due to Aux boost of OSS1, and the larger damage boost from Emitter Synergy with more tactical skills to trigger it and keep it permanently at 3x stack.....
The key to my build is synergy. That is, skills doing multiple things at once.
-APB does AoE Debuff, and Hull heal
-BFAW does AOE energy drain, AOE Shield Removal, and spreads hull penetrating Plasma DoT from Sci Consoles around.
-Tactical Team is as effective, or more effective than a shield heal skill (and with DOFF adds to APB debuff).
All three above add to Emitter Synergy Exotic damage.
Also let's not forget that with (DOFF'd) Aux to Damp - I move faster, turn faster (to bring skills and torpedoes in range/arc faster), and have more resistance to damage.
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I LOVE the great analysis and discussion on the Pathfinder - Keep it going, and I do look forward to flying together again sometime.
I think the roles between Captain careers are not as explicit as you define them. Yes, there is a small difference between the career types, but not enough where a Sci "HAS" to play a support role, or a TAC "HAS" to do dps.
In all MMORPG games there is necessity for tanks, healers and damage dealers. Exceptions are games where there are special new classes which do a mixture of abilities similar to the main classes. In STO we have 3 types of toons and with no doubt we can conclude that "best" tank is X ship with "engineer", best dps is X ship with "tactical" and best exotic only or support is X ship with "science" toon.
There is no need to argue about if this is 100% accurate or not - the facts are clearly stated in the small bonuses/differences/traits which these classes have.
Nevertheless, STO is a combo breaker game - where a certain "toon" may take any role by switching to a different ship. This option is giving birth to special good cases and fun to try anything with 1 "toon".
In STO:
- a tactical ship is been evaluated by the number of tac consoles, number of beams and number of abilities they can muster and the skill of the player of how to implement all this to maximize the "damage". Of course most players using tac toons will care for damage and how fast they do it. That is 1st priority. Other part of the players may experiment with "science" and care for a mixture of damage in between energy and exotic. And very small part would care to be tanks as tactical, focus on survival.
- I do not focus on engineers but what I've seen from some really good players using engi toons is how fantastic they can build up aggro, maintain self heal and do not allow anything to hit their ally. People may say "sto =/= need for tanks" but that's not entirely true. One player who does not care for DPS but instead would care to allow his team mates with tactical ships/toons to deal as much damage as possible without being targeted deserves to be respected.
- but the science toons - the very reason someone would decide to use these toons and the special bonuses they come up with would mean this player choose not to focus on dps/damage as primary role but to explore other aspects of the game. Again - there are exceptions. I am talking primary about those that know how to play their role. In short everything the other 2 classes would ignore (nearly most skills affected by Grtg, Prtg, Flow...) would be of importance.
For example would you be happy if a science toon is using an escort ship and build for tanking? Its not impossible but compared to engineer with cruiser with tanking build...well that was my point. The loss of potential is lesser when using class ships.
OSS1 taking Aux levels beyond 125 in bursts which I time to max effect.
I've tested OSS1 and even 2 but I was not satisfied due to the huge CD.Also loosing ET or I.Turbulence is a lot. (IT is helping the entire team while OSS is boosting only my damage). Also ET is useful for both me or my team. I am following the ideology of "supporting" as much as possible that is why I've done these choices. Like I said in the early post - "If you focus on most aspects, you have to sacrifice something. It's just inevitable".
(more info on why ET is of great importance to my build below)
____________ (In order to reduce the length of the post I will remove what you said and add what you've missed ok?)
Energy Drain
You've underestimated a lot of my energy drain by simply discussing the obvious from the skillplanner. Here is what you've missed:
- Sub Targeting: I am using them exclusively and with the doff I can maintain a sub target each 15 sec. If you are using BFAW you place them on CD. In my build I can drain each power (45) and shut down that power.
- Aceton Assimilator - the main tool of the drain boats. This console with 45 sec cd drains 33 all powers per sec AOE for unlimited time and does "radiation" damage AOE, boosted by CC console (30%) and if hit by BFAW (very often) begin to spam 1700-2000 AOE radiation waves.
Depending on the situation if someone else uses GW to pull all npcs - I use TR which is how it should be used. Closing and spawning AA at 4km will shut down all npcs, making them super weak with barley any shield regeneration and if 1pop down, all pop down because they wont be having shields.
This combo of AA and TR plus SubTarget/ES/Leech/NT - is allowing to shut down nearly anything or diminish its powers.
- Neutronic Torpedo: It drains 20 all powers AOE - useful in any GW/TR or when npcs are close to each other. It can even disable all inside GW for 5 sec each 10 sec (info below).
I will not say if my build is better in this role than yours but do not compare BFAW+Leech to ES/Sub/Leech/TR/AA/NT drain.
(green is what we both have, red is what you do not have).
*TR is also being affected by 2nd deflector meaning it does the radiation stack when activated.
____________ Self Hull Heals
Since we both are using HE1 I will exclude it. But I do not agree on what you said about ET1:
- It heals 9000 and have 20 sec CD for me
- It is loading Viral torpedo
- It does not shares CD with ST (allowing more virals to be loaded asap)
- It repairs disabled systems
- It gives me Loop 10% exotic damage
*I do not have the AP hull bonus from spec but if using TSS/ST - I gain 6k temporary hull on top of 20% reduction damage to shield, more regeneration.
Resistances are meaningless to compare mate. I don't die in advanced thanks to the ablative armor which saved me nearly any STF x2. With 2x hull heals and 2x shield heals, armor console, t5 8472 shield and in last moments t5 romulan cloak -threat - I can handle it well. I am saying this from experience because 80% of the time I tank the entire ISA Not funny when nobody heals you but still happens and in worst scenarios I die 2 times.
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Shield Heals:
-I am always manually switching shields, that is why I do not need TT on the sci ship. My shield regeneration is ~1600 and with TSS it might hit 2k. Also the shield damage resistance can hit 62% so its always enough time one facing to go other side.
-TT is good ability but not worth the slot for full sci build. It provides me with 0 assistance (instead to give it to someone else)
-ST1/TSS are with the Unimatrix shield is enough passive shield heal.
*TSS can be used on other players which is really helpful
*It also gives me Loop 10% exotic damage (faster switch from bonus heal to bonus damage)
The reason why I have it is its part of the synergy for the loop, maintaining the shuttle, assisting players or if necessary on me.
____________ Shield Removal
You are overestimating the BFAW+leech mate. First - TB/CPB are weak, we all know that when it comes to shield drain. Nevertheless you must know how to use them:
-CPB drains shield of ~4000 but it stacks the radiation to all in 5 km sphere. The radiation is 50% shield penetration so - 1400x10-50%=7000 all damage to shield +4000= 12k AOE per npcs. Still its not much but....
-add ES/Leech/TR/AA/NT/Sub target shield and *Shuttle viral matrix/phaser proc as bonus...there you go.
Shield drain and Power drain walks hand to hand. Damaging all powers and then damaging shields will give good results even if its a mere 12k. Yes BFAW will do a lot of damage but the way CPB works for me in full synergy of my build is beneficial and rewarding.
* I do not count the cloak removal...its pointless
Primary using CPB because its AOE damage ability and small shield damage.
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NPC Resistance Debuff
- Sensor Scan is really great for the entire team.
- I am using Ionic Turbulence with one in mind - most/all tacticals have APB but not all have IT . This is assisting the whole team by removing -25 resistance.
I am always using IT in tandem with GW or TR. In this way I boost every ability I and my team will do to the npcs.
The range is 3km but its enough, my GW have huge pull distance. The range you stated so much is meaningless for all npcs I fight are in 0.1km one to each other. I am even using TBR to capture those around and place them inside the GW/IT so they can also be damaged. The range was never an issue for me thanks to the huge pulls of GW.
*I had in mind to get APB for further debuff but i would have to sacrifice TSS/ST which will render my build and ablative traits useless - especially for neutronic torpedo and Loop refreshing. Also ST/TSS can save me or others while APB is pure offensive ability.
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Disable:
You are wrong about the CD. I will explain the disable in my build:
- aero shuttle: a lot of ppl underestimate it but it does very good viral matrix. It's helpful. May not be full disable but it can be noticed. It's phasers have huge chance to disable system - it can be noticed (its a phaser proc so its 1 random system not always the shield ).
- Neutronic Torpedo: Here is how it works - ST (loading torpedo for 20 sec) During these 20 sec you need to fire a single shot (not torpedo ability boost). Once fired you gain 10 sec CD before you can load another Viral torpedo.
*ET and ST do not share CD and ET have 20 sec CD (ST is 28) - thanks to bio-gel pack a lot of abilities get shortened CD
*Example: ST (viral) -> firing Neutron (10 sec CD) -> ET (viral) -> firing Neutron(10 sec CD) ->ST and etc... I can do this whole day if properly timed and if not in emergency (to heal players in need)
In this way I can disable AOE each ~10-12 sec for 5 sec. Neutronic torpedo single shot does AOE damage, meaning if viral is loaded the radiation AOE counts as torpedo shot and stacks the disable bonus. No other torpedo can do that even emission...So for my build this torpedo is "disable torpedo" 12 sec cd. I am primary using this torpedo for single shot disable AOE, very rarely for TS.
*Sometimes!!! TS neutronic does aoe disable to multiple targets. I don't know how exactly but there is something to do with the timing of when you activate "team" / torpedo buff. For example TS2 +ST (loading viral) or ST (loading viral) +TS2. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. Maybe its bug but the single torpedo disable is super helpful.
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Hold/Slow
Not entire right:
- TR drain is 10 per sec and it can be counted as slow...for its draining engine power really fast.
- AA console drains 33 per sec all... can be used in tandem (in isa) to slow down all when GW is on CD
- Gravimetric Rift (ts) spawned rifts can slow even pull (thanks to psychological warfare its effect can be devastating) in worst scenario its simple slow...because npcs are trying to move but are being pulled back a little, resulting in slow.
- Aero Shuttle: it have tractor beam, using it randomly but still using it.
- And yes Ionic Turbulence for Hold/slow
Seven "Science Role" items where our builds differ. My build is arguably much better at 5 of them (and none of them were because I'm a Tactical vs a Sci Captain!). Yours much better at 2.
That was rude mate...You brought your own theory by overestimating bfaw "drain" possibilities and concluding you did better than me. Better damage? Yes. But better control/science? I do not agree. Theories do not work as intended - actions and experience can bring results if something is good or bad. I've been focusing on controlling effects for years and using this ship (old intrepid). Allow me to have a better understanding.
The key to my build is synergy. That is, skills doing multiple things at once.
-APB does AoE Debuff, and Hull heal
-BFAW does AOE energy drain, AOE Shield Removal, and spreads hull penetrating Plasma DoT from Sci Consoles around.
-Tactical Team is as effective, or more effective than a shield heal skill (and with DOFF adds to APB debuff).
BFAW/APB/TT are present in most tactical builds. Are you saying all of them with embassy consoles and leech would do better than real sci powers and combos focusing in specific roles? No offense bu do not overestimate BFAW and leech. Its fantastic and basic combo with excellent results - but its not a must have for full science builds. Science count to use "real powers" not firing at will.
Also let's not forget that with (DOFF'd) Aux to Damp - I move faster, turn faster (to bring skills and torpedoes in range/arc faster), and have more resistance to damage.
My ship have 90% defense in battle, excellent regeneration, hull heals and armor. That is why I stated above that "resistances" are meaningless. If you are going down - you ARE going down and nothing can save you. But intrepid's have armor and it does saved me for so much times so its like an integrated console for me.
*I do not need to move faster as well
*I fight at 2-3km range so torpedoes can land instantly
*AtD is unable to assist the team compared to ET/IT which could possibly be slotted there.
Like I stated - full sci build must focus on multi-purpose roles above pure damage and self precautions.
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Thank you sir, Lots of good points and things I just learned from your post. I'm going to play with AA more, the Ablative Hull is on my "to play with list".
Consider my post amended so that I can consider the other items you bring up. Just LOVE how deep and complex these builds can get.
I think both Pathfinder builds are good in their own right, and I love the discussion as to "why". Definitely taught me a few things.
There is also 1 bug I found about Emitter Synergy - 7.5% damage x3 -22.5% exotic damage. You can check the thread where I placed some numbers but it seems people dont care.
In theory it should be 30% from COE and 22.5% from ES - 52.5% exotic damage but...its not. After many ISA runs with and without it - the damage difference was negligible and I can't hide my disappointment. Point is most things in STO don't work as intended and can only get you confused. I just hope "pedal to the metal" will be worth the effort of getting it and its 10% damage will be noticed.
There are abilities which boost your total damage and there are abilities which only boost your base damage. I think here we have two different abilities. COE boost your total exotic damage from all sources after getting other boosts (like boost from particle generators). And Emitter Synergy only boosts your base exotic damage - a gravity well without any numbers of particle generators for example.
(it's also buffed by PM, the secondary deflector does not).
That is incorrect - whether the damage of the secondary deflector is buffed by PM or not is determined by the ability you use to bring it to the enemy. Tyken's Rift for exmample is an exotic damage ability which can crit and get buffed by PM. So the DoT given from the secondary deflector to Tyken's Rift can also crit.
Energy Siphon isn't an exotoc damage ability and cannot crit - and so it isn't buffed by PM. Therefor the DoT given by the secondary deflector cannot crit, too.
No offense bu do not overestimate BFAW and leech. Its fantastic and basic combo with excellent results
It's BFAW and Leech, AND Attack Power Beta, AND embassy consoles.
We will just agree to disagree on whether I over estimate that combination's ability to energy drain and debuff and shield strip.
Mine activates 1.5x more often, to potentially as many or more targets, with the luxury that they can be at further range if needed (and they don't have to be sitting stationary!), and thus it helps the team just as much as Tyken's and IT. Oh and it also does WAY more damage.
Just because it isn't a "real" power by your definition doesn't mean it can't achieve the same team helping effect, because it essentially does. How do you thnk the 100K+ DPS builds get that high? It's APB from their teammates, not IT and Tyken's Rift.
I can also add IT easily to my build with a single skill change (losing A2D) and have both, thus it's also more flexible with no gear change out.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Ionic Turbulence. Definitely think it's a great skill. My next build will add IT, and get engine speed/turn from other sources instead of A2D, thus I get both benefits....
That is incorrect - whether the damage of the secondary deflector is buffed by PM or not is determined by the ability you use to bring it to the enemy. Tyken's Rift for exmample is an exotic damage ability which can crit and get buffed by PM. So the DoT given from the secondary deflector to Tyken's Rift can also crit.
Energy Siphon isn't an exotoc damage ability and cannot crit - and so it isn't buffed by PM. Therefor the DoT given by the secondary deflector cannot crit, too.
Ooooo, that is a very nice distinction. Thanks for clarifying. Can you verify that with parses (or was it a visual view of in game log in process?) - I definitely want this to be true.
My Secondary Deflector Radiation DoT crit in aggregate was not high enough for PM to be taking full effect, but I can't break out the source of that DoT between the different triggering mechanisms in my reader.
Looks like I should have dug in a bit deeper when I used Tyken's Rift with it on an older build.
@venyarth, The understanding is mutual friend. We are here to learn new things and if we are wrong at something to be pointed where and how. I respect your efforts to make your build and I honor your results. You've chosen this "path" and you've been rewarded.
For example thanks to you I got the emission torpedo. You brought the information and it was tempting. I got it and am satisfied of its results. If I did anything to assist you as well would only make me happy
Definitely try the AA console. You can place it at Zero Point console slot and test it out. As for ablative armor - since you are using primary Energy weapon with BFAW - your dps will fall in the moment you raise your armor. I would not advice you to use it.
In my build I have 3 torpedoes due to their effects and my deep science abilities. If we separate weapons/torpedoes/exotic powers in 3 primary damage type thats 33.3% per type. When I activate the armor i maintain 66.6% of my abilities/torpedoes while only loosing KCB/omni/adv.thoron - for 15 sec. During this time I can do everything I did (supporting primary) while I lose some energy damage...a fair trade I may say.
If you activate the armor you will have only 33.3% effectiveness and lets say 7% from emission torpedo. Your performance and dps will fall. The armor favors torpedo builds or torpedo/sci hybrid builds - like mine. Aside from that its really helpful console making you invincible (if you know when to use it and how aka instantly HE/ET after armor is deployed not before that).
It's BFAW and Leech, AND Attack Power Beta, AND embassy consoles.
*Pattern Beta not power . Well I also have Leech and embassy consoles. I also have more flow so the drain from leech is stronger. I can't deploy it to all around 9km but it doesn't matter for AA console out-drain everything. My point was that BFAW+APB *with in mind that 80% players are using leech and embassy consoles, so no need to state them* is normal combo to boost damage. Both abilities are good, nothing's wrong with them. For my build I prefer 2x TS - one for emission and one for gravimetric, both useful with deployed armor. (Also since I am using 2 tac abilities vs yours 4 - no need to compare that - you focus on damage, I focus on support )
It was not a roleplaying definition. Point was that most people are using BFAW+APB+ etc but that is not as equal in terms of control/support/drains lets say TR/ES/Sub/AA/disable etc... Most of the time as science you need to have what others do not - in this way giving them an upper hang, boosting their damage. At least that was before DR. Now science ships can deal even more damage than tactical (sometimes/specific builds) and I am talking about full science builds...
@chippie3, I came up to that conclusion as well. But if the bonus of ~22% damage was to the basic exotic damage - the trait is very close to useless. Sorry but ~50 damage at full stack (out of battle) is laughable not to mention radiation from 2nd deflector to all abilities except TR is not improved.
@chippie3, I came up to that conclusion as well. But if the bonus of ~22% damage was to the basic exotic damage - the trait is very close to useless. Sorry but ~50 damage at full stack (out of battle) is laughable not to mention radiation from 2nd deflector to all abilities except TR is not improved.
Yes, I am as diasappointed as you about this thing. I only bought the Scryer for the trait...
And that only the 2nd deflector DoT at TR can crit is also diappointing. The devs have to really don't think more than 3 seconds about Science :-/...
Ooooo, that is a very nice distinction. Thanks for clarifying. Can you verify that with parses (or was it a visual view of in game log in process?) - I definitely want this to be true.
My Secondary Deflector Radiation DoT crit in aggregate was not high enough for PM to be taking full effect, but I can't break out the source of that DoT between the different triggering mechanisms in my reader.
Looks like I should have dug in a bit deeper when I used Tyken's Rift with it on an older build.
Thanks again.
I battled in Argala once only with Tyken's Rift and once only with Energy Siphon and parsed it. The crit rate of the 2nd deflector for TR was around 80% and for ES was around 15%. So TR profits of PM and ES does not. And I think, that the other abilities for the DoT will not, too - because they don't do damage naturally.
So, the DoT at ES can crit - but it doesn't profit from PM. This was what I wanted to say in the first post - I'm no native in english tongue . Tyken's Rift can do alot of damage due to the effect of the 2nd deflector and PM and stacking PartGens.
I battled in Argala once only with Tyken's Rift and once only with Energy Siphon and parsed it. The crit rate of the 2nd deflector for TR was around 80% and for ES was around 15%. So TR profits of PM and ES does not. And I think, that the other abilities for the DoT will not, too - because they don't do damage naturally.
So, the DoT at ES can crit - but it doesn't profit from PM. This was what I wanted to say in the first post - I'm no native in english tongue . Tyken's Rift can do alot of damage due to the effect of the 2nd deflector and PM and stacking PartGens.
Perfect Proof that TR does proc PM crit on Secondary Deflector. Thanks!
It was not a roleplaying definition. Point was that most people are using BFAW+APB+ etc but that is not as equal in terms of control/support/drains lets say TR/ES/Sub/AA/disable etc... Most of the time as science you need to have what others do not - in this way giving them an upper hang, boosting their damage. At least that was before DR. Now science ships can deal even more damage than tactical (sometimes/specific builds) and I am talking about full science builds...
Ah I think I get what you are saying now. Yes, Science adds an INCREMENTAL boost to the above, because you are right, most people do run with APB (Pattern, not Power ) and leech and FAW.
But to my point, your posted build does NOT run with either APB or FAW. Thus comparing our "specific" builds, my point stands on effectiveness between them. (EDIT: Not withstanding AA difference, which it appears I've greatly underestimated)
Now if you want to say Science adds even more on top of the "general" BFAW/APB/Leech, then we 100% agree with each other.
And lastly, yes, I agree that with this ship and new DR stuff, Sci captains on a Sci ship with a Sci centric build can finally be competitive DPS wise on a Tac Captain with the same.
The last two points is why I can't wait to try this on my Sci Captain with some variant of these builds.
I came up to that conclusion as well. But if the bonus of ~22% damage was to the basic exotic damage - the trait is very close to useless.
So basically, the max 3 stack of 22.5% on the Emitter Synergy (Scryer Starship) trait is not as powerful boosting Exotic, as a single Tac Weapon power boost console boosts weapons damage....I can get a +25% TAC console pretty easily off exchange, (we won't even talk about the Fleet ones at Mk XIV with 35% that also boost Crit.)
I'll take any buff I can get, but it is very disappointing for sure.
Update: Added some more rear arc damage Intel Spec points. Now over 38K+ DPS ISA PUG - with >50% Exotic Damage. Once I get Pedal to the Metal, 40K should definitely be doable in a PUG/PickUp Group.
Pathfinder Class: U.S.S. Edgefarer - Captain Vyntares
Parse (Shows breakout of 36K+ damage, overall team summary, and the "unowned" Torpedo Plasma Particle Emission Cloud damage of 2K that the CombatLog does not assign to me even though I'm the only one using that Torpedo)
Think you could do a few solo argala runs and post the parses so I have a benchmark to compare with please?
Sorry for the delay - been away from STO for a bit.
Here is typical Normal Argala run solo parse with my posted Pathfinder build (except I put in a second TBRII in lieu of the FBPII) . Not my fastest or slowest, just a normal XP run where I loot everything, leave, then go right back in to repeat the patrol. e.g. No Go Down Fighting or Fleet call ins.
A more "instant" hit torpedo like the Neutronic would do more damage, but this parse used my current set up "as is" for ISA PUG runs.
3:17 run with 15.5K DPS in Argala. DPS is deceptive - I put in a damage over time graph so you can see the large gaps of zero damage at the start where the player is just waiting for the dialog box to continue. The gap at the end is the run back to the last boss.
On this run I messed up a bit - normally I drag the last mobs closer using TBR so that the boss cluster pretty much spawns at 10-12K from where the last "normal" mob died.
I can pretty much chain multiple repeated Argala runs (leave system, enter, etc.) in about 3.5 mins per run, and maybe every 4th run I stop to replicate my loot back for EC.
Have you looked into making space for the new constriction anchor console for its ~+23 % exotic damage? It seems to be a much bigger boost than a mere 30 PrtG or so.
I have also come to like using scramble sensors. It has a radius that easily covers everything in a grav well, causing them to shoot each other for a few moments. This really helps take the heat off you in that critical post-GW moment where everything would otherwise be nuking you, adds further dps to the bundle of ships as they shoot each other, and even does some direct radiation damage itself thanks to the new inhibiting secondary deflector, which I like more than the detoriating type.
So, the DoT at ES can crit - but it doesn't profit from PM.
Sounds buggy to me.
The devs don't really pay attention to science which is why they release broken stuff for it oftentimes.
Nutro torpedo drain? If affected by multiple torpedoes only one stacks and drain resistance wasn't built into it.
Counter command shield? Flat -10 weapons drain proc (No flow caps scaling) which is completely useless.
Energy Siphon 1? Much less effective than all other on the power boost. Energy Siphon and plasmonic leech are also both good examples of lazy coding since boost should be equal to actual target drain.
There is one more, but I would potentially shoot myself in the foot for pointing it out because I'm not sure where they screwed up and it could be the ones I see bad are the ones working as intended.
That is Plasma Doping. The build in the first post is using normal fleet tactical consoles, so there is no buff to the plasma proc.
The biggest buff and the core of the doping mechanic comes from the huge leap in proc damage from UR to Epic Mk XIV. Beam locators just help that along. If or when the fix comes, it will address the former, not the latter.
Comments
Thank you for taking the time to reply, and no offense taken, good sir. I get where you are coming from and certainly can see that point of view. I even anticipated that line of thinking.
Thus, this link in the original post has a spreadsheet that was very clear on what damage came from where. Whether it's torpedo, sci skills, whatever. I put this here because different people can look at "exotic" however they want, and the spreadsheet saves them the trouble of doing the math on different ways to look at the damage.
I'm not going to say whether any definition of "exotic" is right or wrong, because the definition of "exotic" is so varied
http://i.imgur.com/akpk7GE.jpg
Part of the problem is there is no officially consistent definition of "exotic" damage. And depending on which you use, a certain effect may or may not be "exotic" Examples I've seen of people defining "exotic":
Any of the above could be argued to be "exotic". And reasonable people could argue that you must have all 4, or 3 of the 4, or certain ones of the 4, or any of the 4.
Your definition is it MUST be all 4. I don't know if that's everyone's definition (and again, Cryptic has no consistently applied use of the word "exotic"). Meeting criteria #2 above is good enough for me - because all I care about is what buffs what.
Some would say that if a weapon was involved in any way, it can't be exotic. I don't 100% agree with that, but I won't argue with anyone that thinks so. I can sort of see both sides on that one.
Here are several types of damage sources, and you can see the different ways they can be considered "exotic" or not, depending on which of the 4 definitions above one thinks it has to fall under to be called "exotic"
Anyways, if Cryptic can't officially figure out "exotic" and consistently define it in game, I'm not gong to try either
All I know is that the Plasma cloud is buffed by things that buff "exotic" damage - thus it has synergy with a main item (the "exotic" damage) that distinguishes Science. I don't care if the delivery method is a torpedo, a console, or an Engr/Sci skill. That difference might matter to others though, and that's ok too
I'm dying to try this Pathfinder build on my Sci toon. Right now I am highly confident I can get 25K+ and maybe 30K on it with a Sci Captain, in a PUG run of course.
That's because some of the Science Capt skills are more defensive, and thus I can live longer to do damage. I die multiple times on just about EVERY run in my Tac Captain, so that's a lot of clock time ticking away at zero damage done to kill my DPS score.
On the Sci Captain, I might actually take out two TAC BOFF and replace with Science (so 9 Science total), to really max the Secondary Deflector too. Some of my rough calculations say it might come out ahead for the Sci Capt.
I also think Conservation of Energy is a great skill that is competitive damage wise, on this build, with the TAC captain skills.
My Fed Sci Captain is only level 53 right now though, and I'll need to build his starship traits, etc. up (Why oh why Cryptic did you make alt life so hard in DR.....)
The Attack Power Alpha is not really 50% total damage, it's "base damage" - just like TAC consoles aren't really 38% damage boost. I can't figure out the exact boost, but I've heard some say it's as low as 12%. The Crit hit and Crit severity are real though.
Also, Conservation of Energy "should" impact 52% of the damage done in my 35K parse. Side note, per the prior posts, THIS is why I'm counting the Plasma Particle Emissions cloud as "Exotic Damage"
Conservation of Energy is also up close to 100% of the time (I'm shot at the whole time in ISA, so it should 3 stack full time).
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Theory crafting math between TAC and SCI captain.
(APA1) Let's say APA only really gives a 24% overall boost for 1/3rd of the time (30s up, 90s CD), or 8%
(APA2) The APA 5% crit hit and 49.6% crit severity is a bit more complex. I'm running 16.5% crit hit, 85% severity baseline. The incremental 5% crit hit gives me (5% * (85%+14.6%)) = 6.73% more damage from the incremental crit hit.
The incremental 49.6% severity also boosts the original 16.5% crit hit by another 49.6%. (16.5%*49.6%) = 8.18% more damage.
(6.73% + 8.18%) * (30s/90s) = 5% more damage.
Adding the two parts together gives (8%+5%) = 13% more damage from use of APA. Now a good captain will time the APA for max effect, so it will be more than this.
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Meanwhile Conservation of Energy is 30% over the whole run, but only impacts the 52% that is "Exotic" damage. So that's 30% * 52% = 15.6% more.
15.6% boost with Conservation of Energy compared to 13% for APA (but more for APA if it's timed right) looks fairly competitive. TAC captain also has access to Tactical Fleet, that's 37% boost for 30s/300s, or another 3.7%, but again, usually more because it's timed well - However Sci Captain can deploy 5x Photonic Fleet in an 8 min PUG run too.
Overall that looks pretty close. Edge to Tac Captain for sure. But the Science Captain isn't that far behind.
Of course, I definitely want to test it myself on my Sci toon in ISA combat
- Neutral Exotic Damage: here falls all sources of "exotic" damage coming out from anything but not science powers.
- Science Exotic Damage: here falls all sources of "exotic" damage coming out from science powers only.
I am not sure if most players care for the difference between these 2 exotics - in the end its all "damage" and most of it is placed as "exotic" without a clarity. My point is that "neutral exotic" like the one coming from emission torpedo with ~3-4 prtg consoles and skills used on tactical ship/engineer - can also bring similar results if constantly firing it. But a "science exotic" like lets say Gravity Well/Tyken's Rift - can't deliver same results simply because most tactical and engineering ships wont have access to III version.
I think you would understand me now. My early statement for "clarity" was that I see you doing ~30-35% "neutral exotic" and ~15-20% "science exotic". (Again, it may not matter to most players but I am sure science players would care if let's say "30%" of their exotic damage is coming from 1 torpedo on top of their sci powers)
About APA vs COE - True the damage between them may not be equal but the CrtS is what is pushing the APA forward. In combination with particle manipulator trait (giving ~70% critH with full prtg skills and ~4 prtg consoles) it would lead to most exotics to crit while also have their damage increased by ~46% (severity) and that is far more than a simple crit coming out from a sci ship with COE.
Damage+Crtdamage(APA) vs Damage(COE)
There is also 1 bug I found about Emitter Synergy - 7.5% damage x3 -22.5% exotic damage. You can check the thread where I placed some numbers but it seems people dont care.
In theory it should be 30% from COE and 22.5% from ES - 52.5% exotic damage but...its not. After many ISA runs with and without it - the damage difference was negligible and I can't hide my disappointment. Point is most things in STO don't work as intended and can only get you confused. I just hope "pedal to the metal" will be worth the effort of getting it and its 10% damage will be noticed.
I am using such setup on my full sci toon. Before pathfinder, the intrepid was 8 sci power ship, for deep science focus, and the lack of 2 more tac abilities could be a problem if using build similar to yours now - because you would need BFAW/APB and at least 1 torpedo (gravimetric before) now emission or both...with 1 or (if 2) 2 abilities for torpedoes - leading to the need of 4 tac powers.
After many builds during my time in sto focusing on the intrepid only - i came to the conclusion this ship should be used as the ultimate controller on the field when with sci toon. With the arrival of 2nd deflector - giving radiation damage to most sci debuff powers - the ship's potential has increased in performance but the need of max sci powers remains.
I am telling you this not to discourage you or something but to point out a fact about the focus and balance/synergy in this specific ship - If you focus on most aspects, you have to sacrifice something. It's just inevitable. In my pathfinder i have de-shield/power drain/de-armor/pull/hold/slow/disable/radiation/"science exotic"/"neutral exotic"/torpedoes - in both Single and AOE aspects (especially the disable from neutronic AOE). I do a lot of damage and (if a lot of npcs) a lot of dps but there is a limit and if I want to pass it I have to give up important elements from the science role in order to benefit the tactical role - a common mistake from a lot of "scis".
I've managed to hit 21k dps with my build (you can check it above) so I belive you might hit with no problem 25k with your current build on sci toon with 9 sci powers. But the thing of great importance when using sci toon is to be useful vs to do dps - because right now a well build sci ship with sci toon is going to do a lot of damage due to 2nd deflector bonuses and PMtrait - but sci have many focuses and if you choose only 1 you must sacrifice all others in order to raise it to the max.
I choose to have all sci toys in one basket, what would you choose?
PS: Sorry for writing so much about scis but I really do enjoy flying them above tac/eng. The reasons are simple - you have so many choices and different paths and its really interesting to play "smart" (no offense towards tac/engi community but I guess you would know what I mean). Tacs are expected to deal tons of dps and damage with any ship - Veny you prove that with pathfinder "2 tac console". Engis are "expected" to aggro all npcs (have seen this 5% of my time to happen or 40-50% in premade
So if you would like to jump to sci toon - think carefully what you want. For instance I see no reason to use exactly this build with sci toon - results will be logical - boost to overall exotic and downfall of beam damage. In the end you will simply use the tac toon with pathfinder cuz more dps. Sci is fun and if you never used it you will definitely enjoy it more than tacs
I think the roles between Captain careers are not as explicit as you define them. In the end, the Science Captain gets subuke beam debuff and a pair of shield/defense buffs, vs. the Tac captain's Fire on my mark debuff, and APA and Tac Fleet short damage burst. That's it.
Reciprocity puts Tac skills near Global CD, so that is no longer something a TAC captain's "Tactical Initiative" has an edge over other careers on. I rarely push the Tactical Initiative button in my runs.
Yes, there is a small difference between the career types, but not enough where a Sci "HAS" to play a support role, or a TAC "HAS" to do dps. In fact, I'll argue below that in my Pathfinder build, my ship does as much or more of the support roles as yours.
Here I'll argue that my Pathfinder build has similar "Science" or support powers to your build, and does them better AND adds more dps. And it has NOTHING to do with whether the Captain is a Sci or Tac.
(EVEN - slight edge to mine) We have 6 Science skills the same. GW3, TBR2, TachyB1, ST, HE, ESiphon1. We'll call that even, although mine are stronger because of my OSS1 taking Aux levels beyond 125 in bursts which I time to max effect.
(EVEN - slight edge to mine) You have Charged Particle Burst which is used to provide more dps for the Secondary Deflector (taking ships out of stealth doesn't matter in PVE). I'll discuss the shield removal aspect of CPB further below.
I have Feedback Pulse which is only used to provide more dps. We'll call it even with your CPB from a DPS perspective, although my FBP has been parsed to do more dps (it's also buffed by PM, the secondary deflector does not). FBP also works for any enemy shooting me at any range.
Now let's look at the differences and compare.
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Energy Drain
You have Tyken's Rift, up for 10s/30s (I'll assume you have DOFF's that always reduce CD, worse case is 10s/60s). It drains all enemies in a 3km AOE sphere.
I have Beam Fire at Will with Plasmonic Leech. Up for 10s/20s (assume Reciprocity takes it's CD down. At worse it's 10s/30s). It drains all enemies in a 10km sphere (anything within beam range)
Advantage - My build x2. It's up twice as often, has bigger affected volume / range. PLUS
+ my energy GAIN from Plasmonic Leech has better chance of staying at max x8 stack compared to yours because of FAW hitting more targets.
+ my BFAW will put out FAR more damage to ships then the Tyken's Rift.
+ I can stack this while Gravity Well is active. Tyken's Rift is on 15s CD after you use GW.
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Self Hull Heals
You have Engr Team - up every 30s. I don't know what yours heals for, but let's say its 5K per application. Heals damage already done.
I have Attack Power Beta temp hull - up every 15 sec w/ Reciprocity (every 30s worse case). Gives 7200 temporary hull (from Pilot Specialization), preventing damage from being done.
Advantage - My build x2-x3. Larger effect + more frequent availability = I have 2-3x the capacity to mitigate incoming hull damage than yours (and that's assuming we have the same resistance, when in reality mine is likely larger due to DOFF'd Aux 2 Damp). Your ET healing has to reach 14K to approach my APB added hull.
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Shield Heals:
You have Transfer Shield Strength to shield heal yourself or others, with shield heal over time (up 15s/45s).
I have Tactical Team (up 10s/15s with Reciprocity, worse case 10s/22s with Doff) to spread my shields around instantly, essentially giving me 4x the shield power since the NPC has to kill every shield facing to get to my hull.
Advantage - My build x2. Mine is up twice as often (2/3rds to 1/3rd), and the effective shield I'm making the NPC chew through is much larger. True, I can't heal others as often since I lack TSS. But I also have Sci Team 2, to your Sci Team 1 to heal self/others, and my ST2 is also Aux boosted with OSS1.
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Shield Removal (Same thing as Shield Drain because it does not matter HOW a shield is taken down):
We both have Tachyon Beam,
You have Charged Particle Burst AOE (45s CD, 5km radius), I do direct damage to shields via FAW AOE (20s CD, bigger 10km radius).
Advantage - My build. More shield removed when skill is active, longer range, twice as much uptime of skill. And I'm not double counting FAW. My FAW with 5 beams does more hull damage, shield removal and energy drain - compared to your Tyken's Rift and Charged Particle Burst combined.
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NPC Resistance Debuff
You have Ionic Turbulence, (60s CD, 30s with Reciprocity). with 3km AOE radius on target. I have Attack Power Beta (30s CD, 15s with Reciprocity). 10km radius of me, AOE with FAW.
Advantage - My Build by at least x3. Bigger volume (37 times more!!!) covered (MATH: 10/3 (radius) ^ 3 = 37 using volume of Sphere = 4/3 Pi * radius ^3 ), twice as much uptime.
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Disable:
You have viral trait and Neutronic Torpedo to make an AOE disable. 20s CD. It does NOT work with Torpedo Spread.
Advantage - Your build. No contest
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Hold/Slow
We both have GW3 and TBR2. And Particle Emission Plasma Cloud from the torpedo, with Spread.
You also have Ionic Turbulence.
Advantage - Your build. Although I can take out Aux 2 Damp and slot in Ionic Turbulence in my build as well - so this advantage is merely my preference of wanting speed/turn so that my "other" skills can be in range/arc faster.
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Seven "Science Role" items where our builds differ. My build is arguably much better at 5 of them (and none of them were because I'm a Tactical vs a Sci Captain!). Yours much better at 2.
And the things we do the same, mine does slightly better due to Aux boost of OSS1, and the larger damage boost from Emitter Synergy with more tactical skills to trigger it and keep it permanently at 3x stack.....
The key to my build is synergy. That is, skills doing multiple things at once.
-APB does AoE Debuff, and Hull heal
-BFAW does AOE energy drain, AOE Shield Removal, and spreads hull penetrating Plasma DoT from Sci Consoles around.
-Tactical Team is as effective, or more effective than a shield heal skill (and with DOFF adds to APB debuff).
All three above add to Emitter Synergy Exotic damage.
Also let's not forget that with (DOFF'd) Aux to Damp - I move faster, turn faster (to bring skills and torpedoes in range/arc faster), and have more resistance to damage.
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I LOVE the great analysis and discussion on the Pathfinder - Keep it going, and I do look forward to flying together again sometime.
There is no need to argue about if this is 100% accurate or not - the facts are clearly stated in the small bonuses/differences/traits which these classes have.
Nevertheless, STO is a combo breaker game - where a certain "toon" may take any role by switching to a different ship. This option is giving birth to special good cases and fun to try anything with 1 "toon".
In STO:
- a tactical ship is been evaluated by the number of tac consoles, number of beams and number of abilities they can muster and the skill of the player of how to implement all this to maximize the "damage". Of course most players using tac toons will care for damage and how fast they do it. That is 1st priority. Other part of the players may experiment with "science" and care for a mixture of damage in between energy and exotic. And very small part would care to be tanks as tactical, focus on survival.
- I do not focus on engineers but what I've seen from some really good players using engi toons is how fantastic they can build up aggro, maintain self heal and do not allow anything to hit their ally. People may say "sto =/= need for tanks" but that's not entirely true. One player who does not care for DPS but instead would care to allow his team mates with tactical ships/toons to deal as much damage as possible without being targeted deserves to be respected.
- but the science toons - the very reason someone would decide to use these toons and the special bonuses they come up with would mean this player choose not to focus on dps/damage as primary role but to explore other aspects of the game. Again - there are exceptions. I am talking primary about those that know how to play their role. In short everything the other 2 classes would ignore (nearly most skills affected by Grtg, Prtg, Flow...) would be of importance.
For example would you be happy if a science toon is using an escort ship and build for tanking? Its not impossible but compared to engineer with cruiser with tanking build...well that was my point. The loss of potential is lesser when using class ships.
I've tested OSS1 and even 2 but I was not satisfied due to the huge CD.Also loosing ET or I.Turbulence is a lot. (IT is helping the entire team while OSS is boosting only my damage). Also ET is useful for both me or my team. I am following the ideology of "supporting" as much as possible that is why I've done these choices. Like I said in the early post - "If you focus on most aspects, you have to sacrifice something. It's just inevitable".
(more info on why ET is of great importance to my build below)
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(In order to reduce the length of the post I will remove what you said and add what you've missed ok?)
Energy Drain
You've underestimated a lot of my energy drain by simply discussing the obvious from the skillplanner. Here is what you've missed:
- Sub Targeting: I am using them exclusively and with the doff I can maintain a sub target each 15 sec. If you are using BFAW you place them on CD. In my build I can drain each power (45) and shut down that power.
- Aceton Assimilator - the main tool of the drain boats. This console with 45 sec cd drains 33 all powers per sec AOE for unlimited time and does "radiation" damage AOE, boosted by CC console (30%) and if hit by BFAW (very often) begin to spam 1700-2000 AOE radiation waves.
Depending on the situation if someone else uses GW to pull all npcs - I use TR which is how it should be used. Closing and spawning AA at 4km will shut down all npcs, making them super weak with barley any shield regeneration and if 1pop down, all pop down because they wont be having shields.
This combo of AA and TR plus SubTarget/ES/Leech/NT - is allowing to shut down nearly anything or diminish its powers.
- Neutronic Torpedo: It drains 20 all powers AOE - useful in any GW/TR or when npcs are close to each other. It can even disable all inside GW for 5 sec each 10 sec (info below).
I will not say if my build is better in this role than yours but do not compare BFAW+Leech to ES/Sub/Leech/TR/AA/NT drain.
(green is what we both have, red is what you do not have).
*TR is also being affected by 2nd deflector meaning it does the radiation stack when activated.
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Self Hull Heals
Since we both are using HE1 I will exclude it. But I do not agree on what you said about ET1:
- It heals 9000 and have 20 sec CD for me
- It is loading Viral torpedo
- It does not shares CD with ST (allowing more virals to be loaded asap)
- It repairs disabled systems
- It gives me Loop 10% exotic damage
*I do not have the AP hull bonus from spec but if using TSS/ST - I gain 6k temporary hull on top of 20% reduction damage to shield, more regeneration.
Resistances are meaningless to compare mate. I don't die in advanced thanks to the ablative armor which saved me nearly any STF x2. With 2x hull heals and 2x shield heals, armor console, t5 8472 shield and in last moments t5 romulan cloak -threat - I can handle it well. I am saying this from experience because 80% of the time I tank the entire ISA
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Shield Heals:
-I am always manually switching shields, that is why I do not need TT on the sci ship. My shield regeneration is ~1600 and with TSS it might hit 2k. Also the shield damage resistance can hit 62% so its always enough time one facing to go other side.
-TT is good ability but not worth the slot for full sci build. It provides me with 0 assistance (instead to give it to someone else)
-ST1/TSS are with the Unimatrix shield is enough passive shield heal.
*TSS can be used on other players which is really helpful
*It also gives me Loop 10% exotic damage (faster switch from bonus heal to bonus damage)
The reason why I have it is its part of the synergy for the loop, maintaining the shuttle, assisting players or if necessary on me.
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Shield Removal
You are overestimating the BFAW+leech mate. First - TB/CPB are weak, we all know that when it comes to shield drain. Nevertheless you must know how to use them:
-CPB drains shield of ~4000 but it stacks the radiation to all in 5 km sphere. The radiation is 50% shield penetration so - 1400x10-50%=7000 all damage to shield +4000= 12k AOE per npcs. Still its not much but....
-add ES/Leech/TR/AA/NT/Sub target shield and *Shuttle viral matrix/phaser proc as bonus...there you go.
Shield drain and Power drain walks hand to hand. Damaging all powers and then damaging shields will give good results even if its a mere 12k. Yes BFAW will do a lot of damage but the way CPB works for me in full synergy of my build is beneficial and rewarding.
* I do not count the cloak removal...its pointless
Primary using CPB because its AOE damage ability and small shield damage.
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NPC Resistance Debuff
- Sensor Scan is really great for the entire team.
- I am using Ionic Turbulence with one in mind - most/all tacticals have APB but not all have IT
I am always using IT in tandem with GW or TR. In this way I boost every ability I and my team will do to the npcs.
The range is 3km but its enough, my GW have huge pull distance. The range you stated so much is meaningless for all npcs I fight are in 0.1km one to each other. I am even using TBR to capture those around and place them inside the GW/IT so they can also be damaged. The range was never an issue for me thanks to the huge pulls of GW.
*I had in mind to get APB for further debuff but i would have to sacrifice TSS/ST which will render my build and ablative traits useless - especially for neutronic torpedo and Loop refreshing. Also ST/TSS can save me or others while APB is pure offensive ability.
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Disable:
You are wrong about the CD. I will explain the disable in my build:
- aero shuttle: a lot of ppl underestimate it but it does very good viral matrix. It's helpful. May not be full disable but it can be noticed. It's phasers have huge chance to disable system - it can be noticed (its a phaser proc so its 1 random system not always the shield ).
- Neutronic Torpedo: Here is how it works - ST (loading torpedo for 20 sec) During these 20 sec you need to fire a single shot (not torpedo ability boost). Once fired you gain 10 sec CD before you can load another Viral torpedo.
*ET and ST do not share CD and ET have 20 sec CD (ST is 28) - thanks to bio-gel pack a lot of abilities get shortened CD
*Example: ST (viral) -> firing Neutron (10 sec CD) -> ET (viral) -> firing Neutron(10 sec CD) ->ST and etc... I can do this whole day if properly timed and if not in emergency (to heal players in need)
In this way I can disable AOE each ~10-12 sec for 5 sec. Neutronic torpedo single shot does AOE damage, meaning if viral is loaded the radiation AOE counts as torpedo shot and stacks the disable bonus. No other torpedo can do that even emission...So for my build this torpedo is "disable torpedo" 12 sec cd. I am primary using this torpedo for single shot disable AOE, very rarely for TS.
*Sometimes!!! TS neutronic does aoe disable to multiple targets. I don't know how exactly but there is something to do with the timing of when you activate "team" / torpedo buff. For example TS2 +ST (loading viral) or ST (loading viral) +TS2. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. Maybe its bug but the single torpedo disable is super helpful.
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Hold/Slow
Not entire right:
- TR drain is 10 per sec and it can be counted as slow...for its draining engine power really fast.
- AA console drains 33 per sec all... can be used in tandem (in isa) to slow down all when GW is on CD
- Gravimetric Rift (ts) spawned rifts can slow even pull (thanks to psychological warfare its effect can be devastating) in worst scenario its simple slow...because npcs are trying to move but are being pulled back a little, resulting in slow.
- Aero Shuttle: it have tractor beam, using it randomly but still using it.
- And yes Ionic Turbulence for Hold/slow
I think I handle this role pretty good as well
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That was rude mate...You brought your own theory by overestimating bfaw "drain" possibilities and concluding you did better than me. Better damage? Yes. But better control/science? I do not agree. Theories do not work as intended - actions and experience can bring results if something is good or bad. I've been focusing on controlling effects for years and using this ship (old intrepid). Allow me to have a better understanding.
BFAW/APB/TT are present in most tactical builds. Are you saying all of them with embassy consoles and leech would do better than real sci powers and combos focusing in specific roles? No offense bu do not overestimate BFAW and leech. Its fantastic and basic combo with excellent results - but its not a must have for full science builds. Science count to use "real powers" not firing at will.
My ship have 90% defense in battle, excellent regeneration, hull heals and armor. That is why I stated above that "resistances" are meaningless. If you are going down - you ARE going down and nothing can save you. But intrepid's have armor and it does saved me for so much times so its like an integrated console for me.
*I do not need to move faster as well
*I fight at 2-3km range so torpedoes can land instantly
*AtD is unable to assist the team compared to ET/IT which could possibly be slotted there.
Like I stated - full sci build must focus on multi-purpose roles above pure damage and self precautions.
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Ye np. That is why I answered with this "wall", hope you will understand my points.
Thank you sir, Lots of good points and things I just learned from your post. I'm going to play with AA more, the Ablative Hull is on my "to play with list".
Consider my post amended so that I can consider the other items you bring up. Just LOVE how deep and complex these builds can get.
I think both Pathfinder builds are good in their own right, and I love the discussion as to "why". Definitely taught me a few things.
Thanks for taking the time to point them out!
That is incorrect - whether the damage of the secondary deflector is buffed by PM or not is determined by the ability you use to bring it to the enemy. Tyken's Rift for exmample is an exotic damage ability which can crit and get buffed by PM. So the DoT given from the secondary deflector to Tyken's Rift can also crit.
Energy Siphon isn't an exotoc damage ability and cannot crit - and so it isn't buffed by PM. Therefor the DoT given by the secondary deflector cannot crit, too.
That's more of a roleplaying-centric definition (and the RP in MMORPG "is" roleplaying, so that's OK).
But all I care about is if I can achieve similar results of the multi-purpose role, regardless of where it comes from.
It's BFAW and Leech, AND Attack Power Beta, AND embassy consoles.
We will just agree to disagree on whether I over estimate that combination's ability to energy drain and debuff and shield strip.
Mine activates 1.5x more often, to potentially as many or more targets, with the luxury that they can be at further range if needed (and they don't have to be sitting stationary!), and thus it helps the team just as much as Tyken's and IT. Oh and it also does WAY more damage.
Just because it isn't a "real" power by your definition doesn't mean it can't achieve the same team helping effect, because it essentially does. How do you thnk the 100K+ DPS builds get that high? It's APB from their teammates, not IT and Tyken's Rift.
I can also add IT easily to my build with a single skill change (losing A2D) and have both, thus it's also more flexible with no gear change out.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Ionic Turbulence. Definitely think it's a great skill. My next build will add IT, and get engine speed/turn from other sources instead of A2D, thus I get both benefits....
Cheers!
Ooooo, that is a very nice distinction. Thanks for clarifying. Can you verify that with parses (or was it a visual view of in game log in process?) - I definitely want this to be true.
My Secondary Deflector Radiation DoT crit in aggregate was not high enough for PM to be taking full effect, but I can't break out the source of that DoT between the different triggering mechanisms in my reader.
Looks like I should have dug in a bit deeper when I used Tyken's Rift with it on an older build.
Thanks again.
For example thanks to you I got the emission torpedo. You brought the information and it was tempting. I got it and am satisfied of its results. If I did anything to assist you as well would only make me happy
Definitely try the AA console. You can place it at Zero Point console slot and test it out. As for ablative armor - since you are using primary Energy weapon with BFAW - your dps will fall in the moment you raise your armor. I would not advice you to use it.
In my build I have 3 torpedoes due to their effects and my deep science abilities. If we separate weapons/torpedoes/exotic powers in 3 primary damage type thats 33.3% per type. When I activate the armor i maintain 66.6% of my abilities/torpedoes while only loosing KCB/omni/adv.thoron - for 15 sec. During this time I can do everything I did (supporting primary) while I lose some energy damage...a fair trade I may say.
If you activate the armor you will have only 33.3% effectiveness and lets say 7% from emission torpedo. Your performance and dps will fall. The armor favors torpedo builds or torpedo/sci hybrid builds - like mine. Aside from that its really helpful console making you invincible (if you know when to use it and how aka instantly HE/ET after armor is deployed not before that).
*Pattern Beta not power
It was not a roleplaying definition. Point was that most people are using BFAW+APB+ etc but that is not as equal in terms of control/support/drains lets say TR/ES/Sub/AA/disable etc... Most of the time as science you need to have what others do not - in this way giving them an upper hang, boosting their damage. At least that was before DR. Now science ships can deal even more damage than tactical (sometimes/specific builds) and I am talking about full science builds...
@chippie3, I came up to that conclusion as well. But if the bonus of ~22% damage was to the basic exotic damage - the trait is very close to useless. Sorry but ~50 damage at full stack (out of battle) is laughable not to mention radiation from 2nd deflector to all abilities except TR is not improved.
And that only the 2nd deflector DoT at TR can crit is also diappointing. The devs have to really don't think more than 3 seconds about Science :-/...
So, the DoT at ES can crit - but it doesn't profit from PM. This was what I wanted to say in the first post - I'm no native in english tongue
Perfect Proof that TR does proc PM crit on Secondary Deflector. Thanks!
Ah I think I get what you are saying now. Yes, Science adds an INCREMENTAL boost to the above, because you are right, most people do run with APB (Pattern, not Power
But to my point, your posted build does NOT run with either APB or FAW. Thus comparing our "specific" builds, my point stands on effectiveness between them. (EDIT: Not withstanding AA difference, which it appears I've greatly underestimated)
Now if you want to say Science adds even more on top of the "general" BFAW/APB/Leech, then we 100% agree with each other.
And lastly, yes, I agree that with this ship and new DR stuff, Sci captains on a Sci ship with a Sci centric build can finally be competitive DPS wise on a Tac Captain with the same.
The last two points is why I can't wait to try this on my Sci Captain with some variant of these builds.
Cheers!
So basically, the max 3 stack of 22.5% on the Emitter Synergy (Scryer Starship) trait is not as powerful boosting Exotic, as a single Tac Weapon power boost console boosts weapons damage....I can get a +25% TAC console pretty easily off exchange, (we won't even talk about the Fleet ones at Mk XIV with 35% that also boost Crit.)
I'll take any buff I can get, but it is very disappointing for sure.
Pathfinder Class: U.S.S. Edgefarer - Captain Vyntares
Parse (Shows breakout of 36K+ damage, overall team summary, and the "unowned" Torpedo Plasma Particle Emission Cloud damage of 2K that the CombatLog does not assign to me even though I'm the only one using that Torpedo)
http://i.imgur.com/yBtzpCa.jpg
Breakout of Damage showing >50% Exotic damage (any damage boosted by Aux and Part Gens)
http://i.imgur.com/YK9YkNB.jpg
Cheers!
Sorry for the delay - been away from STO for a bit.
Here is typical Normal Argala run solo parse with my posted Pathfinder build (except I put in a second TBRII in lieu of the FBPII) . Not my fastest or slowest, just a normal XP run where I loot everything, leave, then go right back in to repeat the patrol. e.g. No Go Down Fighting or Fleet call ins.
A more "instant" hit torpedo like the Neutronic would do more damage, but this parse used my current set up "as is" for ISA PUG runs.
http://i.imgur.com/YpD2q2Q.jpg
3:17 run with 15.5K DPS in Argala. DPS is deceptive - I put in a damage over time graph so you can see the large gaps of zero damage at the start where the player is just waiting for the dialog box to continue. The gap at the end is the run back to the last boss.
On this run I messed up a bit - normally I drag the last mobs closer using TBR so that the boss cluster pretty much spawns at 10-12K from where the last "normal" mob died.
I can pretty much chain multiple repeated Argala runs (leave system, enter, etc.) in about 3.5 mins per run, and maybe every 4th run I stop to replicate my loot back for EC.
I have also come to like using scramble sensors. It has a radius that easily covers everything in a grav well, causing them to shoot each other for a few moments. This really helps take the heat off you in that critical post-GW moment where everything would otherwise be nuking you, adds further dps to the bundle of ships as they shoot each other, and even does some direct radiation damage itself thanks to the new inhibiting secondary deflector, which I like more than the detoriating type.
Sounds buggy to me.
The devs don't really pay attention to science which is why they release broken stuff for it oftentimes.
Nutro torpedo drain? If affected by multiple torpedoes only one stacks and drain resistance wasn't built into it.
Counter command shield? Flat -10 weapons drain proc (No flow caps scaling) which is completely useless.
Energy Siphon 1? Much less effective than all other on the power boost. Energy Siphon and plasmonic leech are also both good examples of lazy coding since boost should be equal to actual target drain.
There is one more, but I would potentially shoot myself in the foot for pointing it out because I'm not sure where they screwed up and it could be the ones I see bad are the ones working as intended.
Unless he changed the build posted in the first post, he's not doing Plasma Doping.
Plasma Doping refers to the interaction of two things - the Plasma Sci consoles, and Beam/Cannon Tac consoles.
To quote Vel'gon: "The [+Beam] consoles are currently a ~1% dps loss over a normal fleet tactical console, but are a ~20% buff to this plasma damage."
That is Plasma Doping. The build in the first post is using normal fleet tactical consoles, so there is no buff to the plasma proc.
The biggest buff and the core of the doping mechanic comes from the huge leap in proc damage from UR to Epic Mk XIV. Beam locators just help that along. If or when the fix comes, it will address the former, not the latter.
Three UR Mk XIV Fleet consoles, and one Epic crafted console.