Idea for PvP Reputation.

cptndata1 · December 2014

Hello PvP community, since before I left the game almost 2 years ago I've heard talk of this PvP season, which wouldn't be complete without a PvP reputation

First: Traits. I'll leave the devs to figure this out but lets have some decent traits, that only work in PvP that make it worth progressing to tier 5, and have a very nice space active ability.

Second: how to level up in this reputation. I propose that every pvp match you play earns you 100 rep XP. You can do the normal projects like any other rep, but you get PvP marks by playing PvP matches. Say, 60 for a loss and 120 for a win. Dilithium rewards for pvp matches will be increased by a little bit overall, and a new project/mission will be added that once per day will allow you to get 8k dilithium for winning a pvp match. I propose that 980 dilithium be the reward for winning a pvp match, and 400 be the reward for losing.

Third, gear. Yes every rep has it's gear. Some really nice PvP set bonuses, deflector/shield/engine types catering to every playstyle, like a Sci deflector, and a tac deflector, with sci boosting stuff like particle gens and flow caps and tac boosting weapons, attack patterns, crtH and crtD, and possibly shields idk. In the reputation store, let players purchase PvP weapons. Mk XIV, gold and we get to select our mods. Prices can be worked out, but I propose a dilithium cost of 30k per weapon.

Now, I know I never addressed specific stats, but I suggest that everything from the PvP reputation be about 10% better than gear you can get elsewhere, but with a catch, only usable in PvP. This would initiate a PvP loadout system, where you pick your pvp loadout and your ship auto equips it when you go into combat. Same for ground. Or, a PvP inventory tab where you can put your stuff there to change it when you go PvP.

I realize this is a rudimentary idea came up with late at night after partying with some friends, but honestly it doesn't seem that dumb to me, and what harm can it do :P

Unknown · December 2014

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lystent · December 2014

I'm sorry, but bad PvP is frustrating as heck. Trust me, I've played some seriously bad PvP before (Eve Dust), and STO suffers from similar problems. Being that all new content has got to always be the best there is, even PvE players would be forcing them selves to PvP if this were to go through. And that is a recipe for some serious rage-quit (Trust me, I rage-quit out of Eve Dust in a day).

cptndata1 · December 2014

I second what beameddown said, ranking system and leaver penalty.

@lystent, In my mind, the suggestion for PvP equipment stops the whole mad race for the newest shiny, as it's the darn best there is for pvp. The only difference between players will be overall thinking ability, piloting skills, ships, and teamwork/playstyles. And by putting this PvP stuff at a reasonable cost of 30k dilithium where I'm pretty sure everyone can reach it in about a month, it'll put the brakes on the grind fest that is the PvP meta right now.

Unknown · December 2014

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notrealedna · December 2014

Why people hate to play pve rep?
because pve is horrible.

they made pvp horrible and then add pvp rep.Why people would hate it?
Because pvp is horrible.

notice the trend?

sharxtreme · December 2014

All this has been suggested countless times.
Balance, ranking, matchmaking, reputation(or rather more imaginative accolades and unique rewards based on those accolades/accomplishments)
Reputation system is badly designed.

For example: I have enjoyed playing STFs, learning to do them fast when rewards were "maybe you'll get it", MACO/Omega stuff for example or nice MKXII VR weapon.
When Omega rep hit, all that enjoyment from getting something has just gone down the drain.

See, in most decent, good, great MP(not necessarilly RPG games per se), sense of RPG progression is achieved by accolades/achievements/trophies which unlock you some nice reward, a gun, a tank, camo, skin, whatever.

Imagine accolade "Destroy 5 player ships with beam overload" which gives you good dual beam, EC or dilithium, and a title "Zapper", for example.

Next stage "Destroy 5 player ships with BO for over 50k damage" which gives you something more.

How about, based on ranking system, "Destroy 5 higher ranked players, or higher tier ships" you get Underdog title and som nice gear.
etc. etc.

For me , personally, this would be waaaaaay more interesting then rep system that is limited of getting 1 progression level a day, which translates to "Spend time to get something".

Accolade/challenge systems keep players playing, teaches players in new things and makes better players which in turn make for better overall gameplay as players progress to achieve set goals, the game progresses with players.

STO had similar system. Just without significant rewards, but accolades that are not 100% achievable by anybody at least. (elite STFs, PvP accolades, etc)
Only good system with filling stuff to move bar along was Fleet system.

Someone(a new designer, maybe) in season 6.5(IIRC) completely misunderstood why Fleet level system was good.
It was not because you were filling stuff and waiting on cooldown, it was because of WHAT WAS NEEDED TO BE DONE TO FILL THE PROJECT REQUIREMENTS.
Reputation sys, even if it seems very similar, is completely different then Fleet system.

Reputation is just stupid.
It is not even a reputation, it is daily grind, a drag same as Gamble/greed/magic R&D system.
Specialisation is the same.

It is like someone inept saw Fleet system and made all **** that followed until now. all the time wondering why are people not liking it.
Reputation sys, R&D, exchange manipulation, specialisation IS NOT GAMING.
IT IS THE VERY OPPOSITE OF CHALLENGE.
0/10 GAMEPLAY:

Troubling thing is. Nobody likes it. Those people that do it, do it not because they like sliding bars and waiting on cooldowns.
They are doing it so they can do PvE or PvP better/differently/whatever,
not because they gain something by beating other players or beating time/DPS records, but because it is challenging to do it, and not all can have same rate of success in it.

People at Cryptic, how can you not see that you don't understand what makes game a game.

1) Not anyone can achieve everything
2) No one can achieve everything at once
3) There are different ways to do it
4) There are more fun ways to do it
5) There are more skill requiring ways to do it
6) There are rewards for every way to do it, but not of same quality
7) Sense of accomplishment is stronger if there is challenge

TL;DR Read it anyway. Especially if you are by any chance in Cryptic.

cptndata1 · December 2014

sharxtreme wrote: »

All this has been suggested countless times.
Balance, ranking, matchmaking, reputation(or rather more imaginative accolades and unique rewards based on those accolades/accomplishments)
Reputation system is badly designed.

For example: I have enjoyed playing STFs, learning to do them fast when rewards were "maybe you'll get it", MACO/Omega stuff for example or nice MKXII VR weapon.
When Omega rep hit, all that enjoyment from getting something has just gone down the drain.

See, in most decent, good, great MP(not necessarilly RPG games per se), sense of RPG progression is achieved by accolades/achievements/trophies which unlock you some nice reward, a gun, a tank, camo, skin, whatever.

Imagine accolade "Destroy 5 player ships with beam overload" which gives you good dual beam, EC or dilithium, and a title "Zapper", for example.

Next stage "Destroy 5 player ships with BO for over 50k damage" which gives you something more.

How about, based on ranking system, "Destroy 5 higher ranked players, or higher tier ships" you get Underdog title and som nice gear.
etc. etc.

For me , personally, this would be waaaaaay more interesting then rep system that is limited of getting 1 progression level a day, which translates to "Spend time to get something".

Accolade/challenge systems keep players playing, teaches players in new things and makes better players which in turn make for better overall gameplay as players progress to achieve set goals, the game progresses with players.

STO had similar system. Just without significant rewards, but accolades that are not 100% achievable by anybody at least. (elite STFs, PvP accolades, etc)
Only good system with filling stuff to move bar along was Fleet system.

Someone(a new designer, maybe) in season 6.5(IIRC) completely misunderstood why Fleet level system was good.
It was not because you were filling stuff and waiting on cooldown, it was because of WHAT WAS NEEDED TO BE DONE TO FILL THE PROJECT REQUIREMENTS.
Reputation sys, even if it seems very similar, is completely different then Fleet system.

Reputation is just stupid.
It is not even a reputation, it is daily grind, a drag same as Gamble/greed/magic R&D system.
Specialisation is the same.

It is like someone inept saw Fleet system and made all **** that followed until now. all the time wondering why are people not liking it.
Reputation sys, R&D, exchange manipulation, specialisation IS NOT GAMING.
IT IS THE VERY OPPOSITE OF CHALLENGE.
0/10 GAMEPLAY:

Troubling thing is. Nobody likes it. Those people that do it, do it not because they like sliding bars and waiting on cooldowns.
They are doing it so they can do PvE or PvP better/differently/whatever,
not because they gain something by beating other players or beating time/DPS records, but because it is challenging to do it, and not all can have same rate of success in it.

People at Cryptic, how can you not see that you don't understand what makes game a game.

1) Not anyone can achieve everything
2) No one can achieve everything at once
3) There are different ways to do it
4) There are more fun ways to do it
5) There are more skill requiring ways to do it
6) There are rewards for every way to do it, but not of same quality
7) Sense of accomplishment is stronger if there is challenge

TL;DR Read it anyway. Especially if you are by any chance in Cryptic.

I think perhaps that both is a good idea, the point of the reputation is to put the cookies on the lower shelf so everyone can get them. Some players might not be able to complete the accolades for the nice OP stuff, whih is why I think in a single player game, that's great, but in a MP game, having performance stuff as rewards for achievements can get really unfair. If you want titles, new ship skins, aesthetic stuff as achievements, more power to you!

warmaker001b · December 2014

Discounting current balance issues, things do need to be done for PVP to make it enticing but there are things that will have you tread on thin ice. Even more hoops to jump through for new PVPers will drive even more away. I have felt that for a very long time, STO PVP had been unfriendly for newbies even outside the expected losing they'll initially do as a newb. But there's so much right now that you have to have maxed and completed, or have progressed far along in to even warrant entry.

A new player, Fresh 60, is going to get wiped the floor with. A Fresh 50 has absolutely NO CHANCE in this game. None. And that reality will set in. This is not the STO early days when the cap was Lv40 and a brand new Lv40 could hop into the queues and not get immediately destroyed because of impossible gear gaps and such.

I have felt that right now, there's a lot of dumb tricks players have to do to get good builds and gear for the Faceroll of PVE. But toss in even more hurdles of PVP over that with new players, then it's just too much.

PVP right now is on its last breath. She's on the death bed and the Doctor is already in the house. A stream of new players is the lifeblood that's needed and adding more obstacles to get that will be only bad for PVP's survival.

sharxtreme · December 2014

cptndata1 wrote: »

I think perhaps that both is a good idea, the point of the reputation is to put the cookies on the lower shelf so everyone can get them. Some players might not be able to complete the accolades for the nice OP stuff, whih is why I think in a single player game, that's great, but in a MP game, having performance stuff as rewards for achievements can get really unfair. If you want titles, new ship skins, aesthetic stuff as achievements, more power to you!

See, that "lower shelf" consideration is exactly why current system sucks badly.

1. You are treating good players and bad players the same
2. You reward participation which leads to sense of grinding instead of playing
3. You are removing challenge by catering to bad players which translates that you consider all players bad players-which translates into that you don't consider your own game worth playing if there is no certain reward(think about this)
4. There is no gameplay progress in doing stuff that requires no effort, skill or thinking with a certain 1 reward after certain amount of time
5. By removing challenge, considering majority of players bad, tuning the requirement of time spent-rewards gained as your main gameplay design idea you are removing fun

6. Reputation system effect:
Players "playing" PvE missions by not even looking at screen. Result will be the same.
Players "playing" PvP by not even looking at the screen.

7. OPvP/Tyler Durden - DPS/Kirks Protege channels have done way more for actual GAMEPLAY
in STO then any reputation, patch, mindless patrol mission and lead game designer since season 6.5(or so) has done. By a large margin.

In fact, biggest challenge now for players is not to hate huge design mistakes, to fkn close both eyes and try to get the best of it. Why? Beacuse for all those mistakes people still like the game, way more then developers have the ability to understand why.

What is being played since the moment its created?
ISE, CSE, PvP, NWS.
All those things didn't basically changed through seasons, and yet people are still playing them even though they have better ways to get dilithium, EC or items.

All other newer missions are fails, except Battle of Korfez and to lesser extent Borg Disconnected Advanced/elite because they are, guess what, challenging to a degree.
Even Crystaline thing is way more successful then any Undine or Voth space PvE.

See if specialisation would be done through achievements. (hidden achievements at that) that would add depth to game, because players would see that there is actual gaming thought behind new thing other then "Spend time-get reward".
Instead devs are coming through as lazy, condescending, self-centered and above else greedy.

warmaker001b wrote:

Discounting current balance issues, things do need to be done for PVP to make it enticing but there are things that will have you tread on thin ice. Even more hoops to jump through for new PVPers will drive even more away. I have felt that for a very long time, STO PVP had been unfriendly for newbies even outside the expected losing they'll initially do as a newb. But there's so much right now that you have to have maxed and completed, or have progressed far along in to even warrant entry.

A new player, Fresh 60, is going to get wiped the floor with. A Fresh 50 has absolutely NO CHANCE in this game. None. And that reality will set in. This is not the STO early days when the cap was Lv40 and a brand new Lv40 could hop into the queues and not get immediately destroyed because of impossible gear gaps and such.

I have felt that right now, there's a lot of dumb tricks players have to do to get good builds and gear for the Faceroll of PVE. But toss in even more hurdles of PVP over that with new players, then it's just too much.

PVP right now is on its last breath. She's on the death bed and the Doctor is already in the house. A stream of new players is the lifeblood that's needed and adding more obstacles to get that will be only bad for PVP's survival.

Again same thing, said differently.
The fkn very idea of gaming is that a player has to jump through hoops.
Not that you should remove hoops, challenges, gameplay in order to cater to theoretical worst possible player so he can participate too.
It is begging for participation. It is not gaming.
Like at all.
I don't care how big gear gap is. I had always that challenge of being undergeared, we all did, we all PvPd and PvEd anyway, before reputations, specialisations and R&D/exchange manipulation.
We PvP now, believe it or not, in mixed t6/t5 teams every night.
There is "floor mopping" only when there is heavy disbalance.

and believe it or not, balance in PvP is not what many people say here.
Balance is when you have a chance of beating your opponent through higher skill, better timing, better planning, better teamwork, weakness exploit, positioning exploit and sheer luck.

If there is no chance to beat someone because your weapon can't damage their hull/shields no matter what, then the game is not balanced and said gear is broken, or you have way to low level to compete with such player.
Matchmaking has the answer to that, but matchmaking must also progress as you are geting better gear or learn new skills.
It is simple as that in not so few words.

cptndata1 · December 2014

So you're saying we shouldn't make it easier for people to be good at pvp?

giotariz · December 2014

cptndata1 wrote: »

So you're saying we shouldn't make it easier for people to be good at pvp?

if pvp rep comes out even pvers will want the new shinies aka noobs in pvp and afkers.
cryptic will add afk enalty to all pvp queues, killing watchers in 1v1s or referees in tournaments.

plus we don't want pvp to become a grind

cptndata1 · December 2014

giotariz wrote: »

if pvp rep comes out even pvers will want the new shinies aka noobs in pvp and afkers.
cryptic will add afk enalty to all pvp queues, killing watchers in 1v1s or referees in tournaments.

plus we don't want pvp to become a grind

Tournaments can and are usually run through private queues, remove rewards from private queus and don't put an afk penalty on.

If you read my post you'll see that the PvP gear and shinies only work in PvP, and there will be afk penalties in public pvp.

You'd rather have no pvp season/rep or a bit of a grind and lots of fun pvp stuffs?

sharxtreme · December 2014

cptndata1 wrote: »

So you're saying we shouldn't make it easier for people to be good at pvp?

Read my edit in which i talk even wider about that problem.(like seriously to understand why i am thinking that)

Yes, I'm saying exactly that.
By making it easier for anyone to be good at PvP you are removing challenge and consequently fun for everyone.
That is why some things are considered cheese because they are low effort.

For example you can now equip 5 partigen consoles, put it on some random tier 5/6 ship, put ANY player in that ship, train TBR/FBP, neutronic spread and that random player will get some kills. Said player will be even good on scoreboard, maybe even with highest damage.
Same was before/is still with a2B FAW.
So why all the masses are not PvPing I ask you? They can be good at it, not less , not more.
They can be better then non-pvpers ever could.

So, it is not needed nor wanted to make it easier to be good, to dumb down the game.
What is, however, needed is to make it easier for people to PvP at all.
By easier I mean not to get everyone same gear, same rewards and same but differently skinned ships. Easier in this case means, that people WANT to PLAY PvP.
Not that they want to do PvP REPUTATION.

I'm hoping i'm not coming as agressive, but i am strongly against dumbing-down, "lower shelf", empty accomplishments with no substance.

cptndata1 · December 2014

sharxtreme wrote: »

Read my edit in which i talk even wider about that problem.(like seriously to understand why i am thinking that)

Yes, I'm saying exactly that.
By making it easier for anyone to be good at PvP you are removing challenge and consequently fun for everyone.
That is why some things are considered cheese because they are low effort.

For example you can now equip 5 partigen consoles, put it on some random tier 5/6 ship, put ANY player in that ship, train TBR/FBP, neutronic spread and that random player will get some kills. Said player will be even good on scoreboard, maybe even with highest damage.
Same was before/is still with a2B FAW.
So why all the masses are not PvPing I ask you? They can be good at it, not less , not more.
They can be better then non-pvpers ever could.

So, it is not needed nor wanted to make it easier to be good, to dumb down the game.
What is, however, needed is to make it easier for people to PvP at all.
By easier I mean not to get everyone same gear, same rewards and same but differently skinned ships. Easier in this case means, that people WANT to PLAY PvP.
Not that they want to do PvP REPUTATION.

I'm hoping i'm not coming as agressive, but i am strongly against dumbing-down, "lower shelf", empty accomplishments with no substance.

I understand your point of view, but how do you propose to breathe life into the PvP community? I for one am not going to spend hundreds or grind my life away gambling the upgrade system trying to get gold stuff, I'd love to be able to buy them for dilithium.

riccardo171 · December 2014

cptndata1 wrote: »

I understand your point of view, but how do you propose to breathe life into the PvP community? I for one am not going to spend hundreds or grind my life away gambling the upgrade system trying to get gold stuff, I'd love to be able to buy them for dilithium.

Just get MK XII [Acc]x3 weapons from exchange and upgrade those to MK XIV. If they improve in rarity, good. If they do not, who cares, keep them.

gregkane · December 2014

Some of the ideas here have merit BUT we have enough rep and grind in the game, personally id get rid of all reps and rep gear specialization points etc etc

cptndata1 · December 2014

I hate the grind just as much as anyone else, but I think if we gave PvP reputation a chance it would be 17x better (pun intended) than shooting NPC's over and over again. Remember, we'll be fighting actual players.

gregkane · December 2014

cptndata1 wrote: »

I hate the grind just as much as anyone else, but I think if we gave PvP reputation a chance it would be 17x better (pun intended) than shooting NPC's over and over again. Remember, we'll be fighting actual players.

Yes i agree with that but my concern is there is already enough traits rep passives and clickys etc already diluting player skill as it is

cptndata1 · December 2014

gregkane wrote: »

Some of the ideas here have merit BUT we have enough rep and grind in the game, personally id get rid of all reps and rep gear specialization points etc etc

gregkane wrote: »

Yes i agree with that but my concern is there is already enough traits rep passives and clickys etc already diluting player skill as it is

Compljetely agree with you there, which is why the PvP rep ones will be superior to the current ones, and only able to be used in PvP

not a perfect solution, but still gives us nice stuff. Perhaps a seperate reputation for ground and space so we can have a bunch more pvp traits.

Unknown · December 2014

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cptndata1 · December 2014

beameddown wrote: »

1:a ranking system that incorporates a point value for gear as well could be a solution

got all gold gear? lock box ship? boom! your already going to be bumped up some points no matter how many wins or losses you have

got all junk gear? some mirror ship? boom! your going to be dropped by some points no matter how many wins or losses you have

and most importantly, that the ranking system be viewed and advertised as a tool for match making and not some pecking order "whos best"

have a separate score board for "top this" and "top that" (It would be fun to see if some folks with horribly low ranks due to low level gear and ship take top ranks in this or that on account of skill alone )

the main thing would be that the ranking/matching system really have some steep penalties for forms of abuse, so if folks want to cue up to throw matches, drop out mid match to try and save their rank, or just farm by doing nothing all should carry a heavy penalty, but not so much so that if a mistake was made, they are not left with anything permanent

2: If a ranking system wont be put in place the other way to "balance" the matches is to address the pve side of things, as it stands now, you just need dps to win everything, so what do people make? dps ships

so if they made the elite versions of pve content with less mobs, but those mobs used abilities that required teamwork to overcome, you would have teams of people that would already be prepared to work together and succeed in pvp matches (your healers, your debuffers, your off this and off that, etc) BUT then the rewards for that sort of level of difficulty would have to be sweet, the only way you could guarantee people to rise to the challenge (if it paid out a hair more then a advanced infected stf, why on earth would anyone bother?, so the rewards would have to be pretty high to entice players)

Im not sure what that rewards could be, I know cryptic wants to be stingy with dil cause that is the gateway to their cpoints and their profits, so I don't imagine dil really being even an option to go overboard with, and ec is something they also want to keep on the low cause ec can be a work around to get stuff out of the lockbox that others have paid for (and they want us all to by keys that's for sure)

3: perhaps something as simple a "pvp store" could be added, something with temporary gear put on the shelves bought with pvp bucks or something silly like that, cloned existing items in game but perhaps with rearranged stats and maybe go as far as to have it that you can only get access to variants of rep gear or gear you already have purchased or have access to (cryptic wont ever do anything that doesn't net them money, so if you already bought the ship, and have access to the console, whats the harm in cryptic getting you to play the game more via pvp to earn up the ability to get a different version with some swapped around stats?)

a shield with X instead of Y for this stat, a dual heavy cannon with X instead of Y for that stat, a console with this effect added and the other effect dropped sort of thing, something that would be unique and useful to players with specific builds in mind but always done with a trade, its a delta rep shield but this stat and that stat are swapped example, point being- the pvp store gear would be the variants of the existing gear in the game so really, low work for cryptic to create

but make it so its a revolving door of sorts with gear in there, everything temporary, or even random, this would be the fuel for people to log in and pvp, to check for gear that would be good additions or give great options for their builds

4: FIX the bugs, I know, I know, went really without saying:( most of the push back for pvp is that the game ITSELF is bug filled, glitchy, etc BUT what can we do? It seems whatever profits cryptic is making is going into the next expansion and never to fix whatever the last expansion broke

some on point fixes are have been made along the way, but by now, most of us understand that we will never really see the finished, smooth working version of star trek online

the game will never be what you want it to be, it will only be what it is

I guess my last thought for a fix for pvp matches or match making in general and the answer to the skill divide as well as gear divide is, make new friends

in a team you will be better in pvp, and whatever fleet your in, if it has a handful of pvpers that are not on when you want to pvp or are not on the same page for what you want to do, you gotta spread those wings and fly, gotta go find those folks that will work great with you, find that 5 person team that you can dive into the cues with

the easiest cue to start with, solo-dual cue, just find 1 buddy, that's all, just one other person that you can coordinate with, from their you both can move forward to find those 3 other people, just don't be hung up with a fleet name, be willing to relocate to find the friends that are going to work for you is all

ugh, anyways.. back to argala LOL!!!

All of these ideas would improve the current state of PvP, /signed

wast33 · December 2014

...deja vue

...

Unknown · December 2014

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cptndata1 · December 2014

I'll remember to bring it up in the summer quarter next time

I simply thought what with the upgrade fiasco and level cap increase it might be nice for Cryptic to hear some ideas for level 60 exclusive gear. And you know, keeping their word...

Unknown · December 2014

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cptndata1 · December 2014

patrickngo wrote: »

we do this every winter quarter. Someone floats the idea of a PvP rep system, some good ideas are brought up, long-standing issues discussed, and...

nothing changes.

patrickngo wrote: »

Um, Cryptic has a LONG history of forgetting their words.

I know, a girl can dream can't she :P

Idea for PvP Reputation.

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