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Zen bought through steam, has lead to me losing my steam account

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  • rsoblivionrsoblivion Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    It may be an American Company but for it to trade in the UK there has to be a registered company in the UK too, hence Steam in the UK hosts different games to USA, Australia etc...

    The legal side of things may cost but on completion if in your favour all court costs are applicable to Valve as they are the party that caused the problem (assuming you win). The risk is that they may rule against and then they'll claim costs from you. Something else to realise is that the EULA and TOS are NOT legally binding, they are guidelines and if there is a breach of the law due to those guidelines the company is still 100% liable, though they will try to not admit that.

    The faster way is to go through the media though, that will be an all guns blazing approach, but is certainly worth the effort to get the situation rectified sooner rather than later.

    Looks like the white knights of steam were really being blind. BTW your responses were perfectly fine, just can't change the minds of fanatics.
    Chris Robert's on SC:
    "You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
  • jockey1979jockey1979 Member Posts: 1,005 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    xaraman wrote: »
    Hi Smirk and Adamanteus,

    Kudos to you guys for checking up on this. But, to be devils advocate here could I ask some questions?

    1) Cryptic and Steam obviously have some sort of data feed(s) running between the 2 systems to prevent things like fraud, anti-bans etc?

    2) Did you tell Steam that you were implementing a new authentication system that could place certain new flags on your data feed or even have you checked that the new system is or is not sending flags over your datafeed in relation to things like the "bound to account" probation period?

    3) If your new system is placing flags on the datafeed, could it possible that it was this that made Steam contact you about the account?

    It just seems unusual that this would happen to this guy right after he got this "bound to account" probation warning. It may be a complete co-incidence. But it would be in your best interests to make sure this isn't going to happen in the future.

    Cheers!

    I'm sorry, but as 3 posts before yours, the answers to your questions are clearly marked - as they were all ready posted on pages 4 and 5 of the thread then repeated by myself on page 14 post #148

    Did you just blindly scan the OP and reply? Without even looking at any other part of the thread?

    @OP - I just read those Steam forums and WOW, just WOW. They must be Steam investors or employees posting, because no one can be such a blind fan boy of a company unless you have some sort of financial interest in them.
    I'd go down the media route now if I were you, it seems the only way Steam support will actually do their job properly is if they get publicly slated for trying to defraud you by accusing you of fraud. I wish you all the best in this.
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    See now i know why I never trusted steam.

    I wonder how hard it would be to find others that have had this happen to them, class action suits always go so much faster.


    I would also say **** those guys on the steam forums. This community can be full of self riotous, pig headed, know it all, **** bags. But at the end of the day if your in need 'most' of them will help (perhaps just with a lot of attitude).

    And I mean that in the nicest way possible.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • blitzsthblitzsth Member Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I would again like to thank you guys for the positive support and I would also like to thank the forum MODs or PWE community team for letting me continue to speak about this issue on your forums. I am sure it violates some kind of TOS for the forums to talk about something that has nothing to do with your game. I am just thankful you are allowing me to continue. As I have tried to go through the Steam forum to no avail and I feel atm this is the only place that I can chat about my issue.

    It is helping me to deal with this and to have open minded people to chat with and bounce ideas off. I really do want to clear this up ASAP and I don't want this to continue to hijack the forum. Again thank you for this.
  • vocmcpvocmcp Member Posts: 1,134 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I don't know how important all this is to you but in general this would be the ideal case for an exemplary lawsuit. Once started you could tell the media about it and that would hopefully create enough pressure for them to look into it. Even if not it would be really interesting to see how much their EULA's are holding up in an actual court case. It wouldn't be the first time that some of them have been ruled illegal. Because the issue you're facing really is one of greater magnitude. Basically Steam has sold you a car with the right to take it away from you at their discretion and unchallengeable will. And their doing this by hiding behind a "licence". This is just bad business practice and has deterred me from buying anything from Steam in the future.
  • rsoblivionrsoblivion Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I'm not too worried about Steam's role in this actually, it's pretty standard across the industry now whether it's MS or Apple or Steam or anything that's gone the licensing route.

    I really don't advocate going through court if you can help it though. Been there and the deck is stacked in favour of the house, the house is corporately biased, so unlikely to win unless lucky with a decent Judge/Magistrate (few and far between these days).

    Media however can really give Valve a black eye over this in a much better way and even give them positive press as a result of reversing their decision. So it's in their best interest's to solve this amicably with you by going the press route.
    Chris Robert's on SC:
    "You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    rsoblivion wrote: »
    I'm not too worried about Steam's role in this actually, it's pretty standard across the industry now whether it's MS or Apple or Steam or anything that's gone the licensing route.

    I really don't advocate going through court if you can help it though. Been there and the deck is stacked in favour of the house, the house is corporately biased, so unlikely to win unless lucky with a decent Judge/Magistrate (few and far between these days).

    Media however can really give Valve a black eye over this in a much better way and even give them positive press as a result of reversing their decision. So it's in their best interest's to solve this amicably with you by going the press route.

    Well, quickly for the record, I didn't advise he go to Court directly, but consult a lawyer first, to gauge his chances. And only after he's getting nowhere with STEAM directy. It would be a one-time consultancy fee, and at least he'd know what his position is.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    blitzsth wrote: »
    Well according to some people in the Steam community I have been given nothing but bad advice from other websites that have given fuel to my Anti-Steam rants. I also just checked the thread, for you guys to look at and see if anything that I wrote was Anti-steam, but it has been locked. You guys can still read it, but unfortunately you ca't reply

    Here is the link.

    http://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/620696522125568055/

    You can be honest with me on your opinions on my comments over there.


    Some of these replies, honestly, don't sound all that unreasonable; like:

    "If you dont know how, then you'd better start figuring out how someone accessed your account then."

    See, who is to say the alleged credit card fraud pertains to your prepaid card? Did you consider that maybe your computer/account got compromized, and that fraudulent activity really took place with your account?! Don't stare yourself blind on your prepaid card.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    If Steam has evidence why are they refusing to tell the OP specifically what the "fraud" was along with the cancellation?

    Steam should have no problem telling the OP the exact date, and time of the fraudulent transaction, what game it occurred in, the details of the alleged fraud, and the ISP of the computer used to commit the fraud.

    And I'm sure theres more I'm forgetting that can be provided by Steam about the incident.


    The sad part is, that, typically, when a company decided you committed fraud, they usually don't feel inclined to accommodate you any further. To them, you simply did it, case closed. "Account won't be reinstated."

    That's all very wrong, of course. But, as far as they are concerned, they're done with you. Pure corporate arrogance, of course; but there it is.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • tekehdtekehd Member Posts: 2,032 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    vocmcp wrote: »
    I don't know how important all this is to you but in general this would be the ideal case for an exemplary lawsuit. Once started you could tell the media about it and that would hopefully create enough pressure for them to look into it. Even if not it would be really interesting to see how much their EULA's are holding up in an actual court case. It wouldn't be the first time that some of them have been ruled illegal. Because the issue you're facing really is one of greater magnitude. Basically Steam has sold you a car with the right to take it away from you at their discretion and unchallengeable will. And their doing this by hiding behind a "licence". This is just bad business practice and has deterred me from buying anything from Steam in the future.

    problem with that is that it is expensive...... Valve may not be a monstrously large company, but they are a large enough one to bleed you dry in the course of a court case. Their EULA's have been challenged before in certain places, there is a pending lawsuit against them in Australia for example.... but these lawsuits are being brought by consumer advocacy watchdogs which have the resources to mount them. Best bet would be to find out if there is any group in his jurisdiction seeking some sort of class action against them that he can get in on.
  • erei1erei1 Member Posts: 4,081 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The sad part is, that, typically, when a company decided you committed fraud, they usually don't feel inclined to accommodate you any further. To them, you simply did it, case closed. "Account won't be reinstated."

    That's all very wrong, of course. But, as far as they are concerned, they're done with you. Pure corporate arrogance, of course; but there it is.
    Am I the only one who think "We need shadowrunners to deal with those situations" when I read this kind of stuff ? Must have been playing too much.

    Anyway, I would keep pushing Valve for more information, threatened them to give the whole problem to medias and all. See a lawyer for what you can do. And give all the information you can to every medias that could be interested (gaming ones, and not gaming one, having a corporate vs honest guy could prove interesting to them).

    To be honest, the few times I had issues with corporation, and I perfectly knew I was right, once I was threatening them to use medias, it usually solved my problem fast.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rsoblivionrsoblivion Member Posts: 809 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Exactly Erei1 media is now a more powerful tool than the courts. Mostly because courts cost a lot, whereas media is usually free and even better they get positive exposure when it's settled amicably ;)

    @meimeitoo, it's not a problem I wasn't suggesting you did, however the only people who really win in court are the lawyers. Everyone else actually loses in some way.
    Chris Robert's on SC:
    "You don't have to do something again and again and again repetitive that doesn't have much challange, that's just a general good gameplay thing."
  • xaramanxaraman Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I'm sorry, but as 3 posts before yours, the answers to your questions are clearly marked - as they were all ready posted on pages 4 and 5 of the thread then repeated by myself on page 14 post #148
    What you have posted is a statement by cryptic and my questions are follow ups to that statement. Mistakes happen (look at the Delta Rising launch) and as I've said, it is in their best interests to confirm that this wasn't caused by this new authentication system. If this starts happening to more steam users, they'll have a cluster**** of epic proportions on their hands.

    So please, less of the "nothing to see here" knee jerk mentality. A statement was made and I am questioning that statement. Because, lets face it, the playerbase confidence in the devs here is at an all time low. They need to gain that back.

    It is in their best interests to make sure the statement they made is watertight.

    Cheers!
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    erei1 wrote: »
    Am I the only one who think "We need shadowrunners to deal with those situations" when I read this kind of stuff ? Must have been playing too much.

    Anyway, I would keep pushing Valve for more information, threatened them to give the whole problem to medias and all. See a lawyer for what you can do. And give all the information you can to every medias that could be interested (gaming ones, and not gaming one, having a corporate vs honest guy could prove interesting to them).

    To be honest, the few times I had issues with corporation, and I perfectly knew I was right, once I was threatening them to use medias, it usually solved my problem fast.


    Be very careful with 'threatening' them; word it wrongly, and it could be construed as you trying to extort them. I'd let a lawyer draw up that letter. If, for nothing else, headquarters receiving an official letter from a lawyer is of an entirely different order of magniture than some moron in India giving you his cookie-cutter helpdesk responses.

    Also, if they actually did inform the authorites, then, at some point, the OP is certainly entitled, by law, to full disclosure.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • blitzsthblitzsth Member Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    Some of these replies, honestly, don't sound all that unreasonable; like:

    "If you dont know how, then you'd better start figuring out how someone accessed your account then."

    See, who is to say the alleged credit card fraud pertains to your prepaid card? Did you consider that maybe your computer/account got compromized, and that fraudulent activity really took place with your account?! Don't stare yourself blind on your prepaid card.

    Truthfully, I am open to the fact that maybe something happened on my account without my knowledge and if that's the case then Steam have broke their own rules EULA or TOS.

    Here is why, for someone to do something on my account they would have had to accessed it through another computer, but I haven't had a message off Steams safe guard warning me or asking me to verify this. So if someone accessed my account from another computer then it is Steams fault and not mine. The last time I got a Steam safe guard message was about 3 months ago when I upgraded my computer.

    Ok somehow someone managed to access my computer, well they managed to break into my house and didn't steal a thing, they accessed my computer without my desktop monitoring program not logging their entry as well as get past the password screen. Plus they got passed my dog and my other half that works from home. Also they accessed only my steam account and didn't spend any money that was already on the account. They also didn't transfer any of the free gifts that I have on my Steam account.

    So what makes me think it was only these cards, a couple of things. The last time I topped up my account was about a month before and that was a pre-paid Steam voucher bought from Game the UK computer game retailer. If it was that why has it taken Steam this long to do anything. Also when I ask the creditcard company about transaction on the card, they told me Steam took the money off the cards and then put the money back. Meaning their auto-mated system flagged it and returned the money.

    However this is all speculation as Steam have refused or failed to inform me of exactly why or what the fraud is about.

    edited some grammar, I done so my writing over the last week on forums and emails my brain is fried.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    blitzsth wrote: »
    Truthfully, I am open to the fact that maybe something happened on my account without my knowledge and if that's the case then Steam have broke their own rules EULA or TOS.

    Here is why, for someone to do something on my account they would have had to accessed it through another computer, but I haven't had a message off Steams safe guard warning me or asking me to verify this. So if someone accessed my account from another computer then it is Steams fault and not mine. The last time I got a Steam safe guard message was about 3 months ago when I upgraded my computer.

    Ok somehow someone managed to access my computer, well they managed to break into my house and didn't steal a thing, they accessed my computer without my desktop monitoring program not logging their entry as well as get past the password screen. Plus they got passed my dog and my other half that works from home. Also they accessed only my steam account and didn't spend any money that was already on the account. They also didn't transfer any of the free gifts that I have on my Steam account.

    So what makes me think it was only these cards, a couple of things. The last time I topped up my account was about a month before and that was a pre-paid Steam voucher bought from Game the UK computer game retailer. If it was that why has it taken Steam this long to do anything. Also when I ask the creditcard company about transaction on the card, they told me Steam took the money off the cards and then put the money back. Meaning their auto-mated system flagged it and returned the money.

    However this is all speculation as Steam have refused or failed to inform me of exactly why or what the fraud is about.

    edited some grammar, I done so my writing over the last week on forums and emails my brain is fried.


    Yes, the STEAM safe guard would make it considerably harder to access your account from other computers. A remote hack of your own computer? That may still be possible.

    At this point, like you say, what's simply needed, foremost, is for them to tell you what it is you allegedly did. Otherwise, indeed, it remains just a guessing game.

    N.B. I'd also carefully inspect your STEAM account activity (logins, etc.; not just just financial transactions).
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • blitzsthblitzsth Member Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    meimeitoo wrote: »

    N.B. I'd also carefully inspect your STEAM account activity (logins, etc.; not just just financial transactions).

    not to sound like an idiot, but how do you check login activates. BTW all my purchase history is correct, including Licenses + subscriptions, store transactions game transactions and market transactions. I know and recognize them all. so even if someone gained access to my account, they didn't do anything on it.
  • oceania123oceania123 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    It would seem you are not getting anywhere with your in game customer support.
    I would recommend:
    1. send a certified letter to Valves Corporate office: C/o Gabe Newell PO BOX 1688
    Bellevue, WA 98009
    2. Call the Corporate number: 1-425-889-9642; Since Valve doesn't advertise the extensions of its employees, I would recommend pressing "0" to get to its general voice mail.

    From my experience with working in customer service, letters and phone calls to the CEO usually get acted on with alacrity.
  • trillscientisttrillscientist Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Try contacting the BBB for advice, they have way more experience handing "reluctant" customer support.

    To me it sounds like they are still giving you the runaround, playing for time.
    Don't let them. Keep at it, keep writing messages, but always remain polite. Sooner or later an actual human being will really look at your case.
  • blitzsthblitzsth Member Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Finally I think I am getting some where, I finally got a message from steam asking for detals on the card. I think they are finally listening.

    This was their message

    9 Message by Support Tech Bret on Mon, 10th Nov 2014 17:28
    Hello John,

    Provide the name and billing address and the last 4 digits for all of the credit cards that have been attempted to be used on this account.


    However it is this same Bret guy, so after I asked for this to be pushed up to someone in a more senior roll. A few things might have happened.

    Either the senior person has asked Bret to get more information or Bret has thought maybe I am telling the truth or Bret thought "**** I better do my job properly before my Boss finds out I'm is a worthless piece of ****"

    Either way I am think this could be finally sorted out in the next few days.

    Fingers crossed guys

    Edit, I realised I use FINALLY a lot in this reply :P
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    blitzsth wrote: »
    Finally I think I am getting some where, I finally got a message from steam asking for detals on the card. I think they are finally listening.

    This was their message

    9 Message by Support Tech Bret on Mon, 10th Nov 2014 17:28
    Hello John,

    Provide the name and billing address and the last 4 digits for all of the credit cards that have been attempted to be used on this account.


    However it is this same Bret guy, so after I asked for this to be pushed up to someone in a more senior roll. A few things might have happened.

    Either the senior person has asked Bret to get more information or Bret has thought maybe I am telling the truth or Bret thought "**** I better do my job properly before my Boss finds out I'm is a worthless piece of ****"

    Either way I am think this could be finally sorted out in the next few days.

    Fingers crossed guys

    Edit, I realised I use FINALLY a lot in this reply :P


    Good job! :)

    Yup, I bet he figured this was going to look bad for him upon escalation. Hope you're getting some answers soon!
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  • trillscientisttrillscientist Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    My bet would be that it is simply corporate policy to keep stalling for a while.

    Somebody who is NOT innocent couldn't afford a closer look at his transactions. So they will briefly pester support, hoping that Steam might give in to make him go away. That person wouldn't actually want them to take a closer look at his transactions, so he will go away after a while.

    A truly innocent person will keep coming back asking for updates, asking for somebody to look deeper into the case.
  • oceania123oceania123 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    blitzsth wrote: »
    Finally I think I am getting some where, I finally got a message from steam asking for detals on the card. I think they are finally listening.

    This was their message

    9 Message by Support Tech Bret on Mon, 10th Nov 2014 17:28
    Hello John,

    Provide the name and billing address and the last 4 digits for all of the credit cards that have been attempted to be used on this account.


    However it is this same Bret guy, so after I asked for this to be pushed up to someone in a more senior roll. A few things might have happened.

    Either the senior person has asked Bret to get more information or Bret has thought maybe I am telling the truth or Bret thought "**** I better do my job properly before my Boss finds out I'm is a worthless piece of ****"


    Hmm if it works like most Customer service organizations, multiple calls or contacts generate a flag in the system and gets put on a report. That report was probably looked at by a manager or supervisor, who went back to Bret and said, "Find out what the problem is, and resolve it." ..... or Bret did escalate it up, because as a lowly cut and paste peon, he has no authority, initiative, or empowerment to do any research or problem solving, and had to wait for someone much higher up to give him permission to scratch his own bum.

    On a side note... yes you'll get the canned cut and paste responses for a few reasons. The person is probably in India or Manila and cant deviate from script.
    The company feels if they give you the same cut and paste answer a few times, you'll give up and go away.

    Cant wait to hear a positive yay its fixed :D
  • jkersjkers Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Glad to hear that blitz....hope it goes through for ya!! On a side note, I was put on probation also...and am a Steam person...got off probation last week....now I'm back on probation because....you guessed it, bought some zen to get some keys, and boom...back on probation again!!
  • blitzsthblitzsth Member Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    jkers wrote: »
    Glad to hear that blitz....hope it goes through for ya!! On a side note, I was put on probation also...and am a Steam person...got off probation last week....now I'm back on probation because....you guessed it, bought some zen to get some keys, and boom...back on probation again!!

    Sorry to hear that dude. I hope PWE fix this issue soon.

    I too also need Dilithium, but I need to buy ZEN to buy Dilithium off the exchange, but I will be put on Probation again. So I can't but Dilithium off the exchange. :D
  • wildmousexwildmousex Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    blitzsth wrote: »
    Sorry to hear that dude. I hope PWE fix this issue soon.

    I too also need Dilithium, but I need to buy ZEN to buy Dilithium off the exchange, but I will be put on Probation again. So I can't but Dilithium off the exchange. :D

    you can buy PWE cards at any walmart and go around steam all together.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Me playing UT2k4 (red guy) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz0DnP7wXnU
  • jkersjkers Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    PWE cards were pulled from the market 2weeks ago..retired is what they said...but I think arc cards are on their way
  • blitzsthblitzsth Member Posts: 257 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    wildmousex wrote: »
    you can buy PWE cards at any walmart and go around steam all together.

    That's ok if you have a Walmart near you or even in your own country. A little hard to get in Europe or the UK. Besides, it is not just Steam users that are being effected but the probation period. It has happened to ARC users as well.

    I think I will wait for the bug to be fixed before buying more ZEN.
  • jkersjkers Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    That's good to know blitz....so even their own cards are flagging....wow!
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I hope you find a pleasant resolution to this. Keep us updated.
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