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The state of torpedoes

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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,820 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    aspartan1 wrote: »
    I'll never give up my torps! I have hope one day Cryptic will do a passover on torps and various cons and give us some justice! I have a dream.... :D

    Yeah...I'm gonna try and make it work...I'm just wondering if Plasma and Transphasic are the only ways to go now as they have shield ignoring effects.
  • ladymyajhaladymyajha Member Posts: 1,427 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    lianthelia wrote: »
    Yeah...I'm gonna try and make it work...I'm just wondering if Plasma and Transphasic are the only ways to go now as they have shield ignoring effects.

    Pretty much this, but a lot of Rep torps have shield ignoring effects too. But yeah if your torp doesn't have shield ignoring effects, don't use them.

    But be careful. I'm crunching numbers, and I suck at crunching numbers, but it's looking like torpedo shield penetration has diminishing returns as well. So equipping torps with shield penetration and traits with shield penetration won't give you as much shield penetration as it says if you add it up, eventually it seems that you'll get to the point where you're not getting practically any extra.

    But I can't fully prove this, maybe someone who is better at number crunching and parsing can.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,820 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    darkdog13 wrote: »
    Torpedo's and dhc are second class in pve compared to beams.

    Torpedo and dhc builds are capping out under 40k. (top torpedo build i have seen is 34k from an engineer and for dhc 35k dps meanwhile beam ships have broken 100k)

    The crazy part is the weapon class with the lowest skill cap (beams) also has the highest potential wheres as torpedo's/dhc have a higher skill cap and yet much lower potential.

    Welcome to STO, where everything is upside down and inside out!
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,820 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    skollulfr wrote: »
    its the difference between the shield kinetic resist and the on hull damage potential.
    even today, a single quantum thy2 or 3 backed up by 1 quantum console will do 60k damage if they hit hull, but, lucky to do 6 k to shields with teh same setup.

    its all to do with the potential spike damage to effective HP reserve.
    and due to how the game works with stupid un-costed attack bonuses that stack through the roof, torps go from broken due to lack of power to broken due to too much power on a margin of... maybe 15% potential damage varience.

    but the thing is, they need to hit hull, and they need that console to buff them. stacking the undine and dyson torp bonuses for photons is a good example of this.

    yea. fleet luna or better. ie, 4 tac consoles.

    SO...balance them then...that's something they don't care about or are to lazy to do.

    Or make energy more effective against shields and torps more effective against hull...but no can't have that...that would mean people would actually have to learn how to play or change their strategy instead of just ez-mode pew pew run circles around the target FAW'ing everything with 7 or 8 beams.
  • tigerariestigeraries Member Posts: 3,492 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    if they limit the amount of torps a ship can hold before being out of ammo... ammo capacity based on ship size.

    yeah I think torps should be the top dog in dps in this game...
  • vipercgvipercg Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Yep, and now the new FAW record is 101k DPS.

    FAW > ALL
  • psyloafpsyloaf Member Posts: 137 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Kinetic Precision
    Intense Focus
    Auxiliary Power Configuration - Offense
    Armor Penetration
    Omega Kinetic Shearing
    Advanced Targeting Systems
    Intelligence Fleet
    Stacked HY/TS
    EWO BO Pen DOFF'd BO1 with Mk II VR [Acc]x3 Beam
    APB
    Ionic Turbulence
    Sensor Scan, FoMM, Gather Intel
    Counter-Command Deflector
    Romulan Engines
    [AMP] Core
    MACO/AKHG Shields
    Splash/AoE Torps
    Turning the ship to fire fore and aft torps
    Vaadwaur and Breen Clusters

    And well, the list goes on and on...

    Intelligence Fleet... where do I get that? I'm assuming it's an Intel Specialisation, and since you listed it here, it effects torpedoes?
    Fleet Advanced Research Vessel T6
    Commander Science, Lieutenant Commander Engineering, Lieutenant Commander Universal, Lieutenant Tactical, Ensign Science
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    pulserazor wrote: »
    I cnt see how dr has made the focus on extreme dps less importaint, it makes it even more important. Every single parse log of people getting together to sucessfully complete space pve illustrates how important Fire At Will is.

    Torpedos dont compete with fire at will.

    Fire at will made it possible to faceroll content prior to DR, and after DR it became even more necessry to use it.

    I dunno. My BFAW Mobius, with a single Grav Torp, still does devasting damage with that torp. Soften them up with BFAW, hit that Gravity Well, send in the Grav Torp, and carnage ensues. :)
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • pyrogxmk3pyrogxmk3 Member Posts: 206 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    It's doing good damage (not devastating, that was overload or a few seconds of OSS) because first you softened them up and take their shields down.

    Not very different from saying a beam array can deal devastating damage. Because it can. Thanks to APA, APO, TT, 155 weapon energy and Overcharge on crits. It's just that all those things aren't unique to that array, and the other things that are firing with those buffs up are doing far more on their end. Much like the majority of your torpedo's damage applies to other weapons, and a part of it IS thanks to other weapons, because otherwise it would be hitting against shields.
  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,587 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    pyrogxmk3 wrote: »
    It's doing good damage (not devastating, that was overload or a few seconds of OSS) because first you softened them up and take their shields down.

    Not very different from saying a beam array can deal devastating damage. Because it can. Thanks to APA, APO, TT, 155 weapon energy and Overcharge on crits. It's just that all those things aren't unique to that array, and the other things that are firing with those buffs up are doing far more on their end. Much like the majority of your torpedo's damage applies to other weapons, and a part of it IS thanks to other weapons, because otherwise it would be hitting against shields.

    The beauty of the Gravimetric Torp is that it creates, well, mini Gravity Wells. Together with an actual Gravity Well boff ability (GW1 suffices), foes packed all together, multiple hull breaches, compound effective AOE damage, carnage is really the right word. In fact, I have an EPW fitted (for the 3-piece set bonus) for yet even higher CrtH/CtrD on that torp.

    Math, not my thing, really. But I know I'm doing considerably better with that torp than without.
    3lsZz0w.jpg
  • the1tiggletthe1tigglet Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I have everyone of those skills and have tried various combinations as well, not all torps that are radiation for example, work as intended and no I'm not talking about the lack of a graphic I'm talking about the chat log showing that shields reduced the damage just like it does with normal exotic skills. It is a problem both for exotic and torps alike when they can be negated almost entirely by a tiny sliver of shielding left or my personal favorite, the time it takes for torps to reach the target yes even with the kinetic magnet on, after using target shields and that tiny sliver of shields comes up at that last second to be a bother negating the entire barrage of torps I just sent out. It's such a problem I've resorted to only using certain torps that I can be guaranteed a solid line of damage on beyond shields (and there are only a few mind you and no the neutronic are not one of them) on my science ship to get it to work properly in Mk XIII. It's really that bad at this point. They've need to fix this since Season 6. I can remember when the borg tractor beam on the assimilated set actually did decent kinetic damage now even that is a joke.
  • cidstormcidstorm Member Posts: 1,220 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I think Cryptic has identified everyone's wish for better torpedoes. And so they decided to monetize it by releasing stupidly over powered torpedoes through rep and lobi stores while leaving the base mechanics broken.
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    The beauty of the Gravimetric Torp is that it creates, well, mini Gravity Wells. Together with an actual Gravity Well boff ability (GW1 suffices), foes packed all together, multiple hull breaches, compound effective AOE damage, carnage is really the right word. In fact, I have an EPW fitted (for the 3-piece set bonus) for yet even higher CrtH/CtrD on that torp.

    Math, not my thing, really. But I know I'm doing considerably better with that torp than without.

    Yeah, the grav torpedo is about the only one I usually run.

    The 3pc. bonus alone, makes it an awesome photon torpedo, let alone the torpedo itself and the mini wells.
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,820 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Yeah, the grav torpedo is about the only one I usually run.

    The 3pc. bonus alone, makes it an awesome photon torpedo, let alone the torpedo itself and the mini wells.

    But you still use mostly energy weapons...this effects torpedo boats more.

    Least with a energy weapon build you can open the shiled to do some real damage with a grav torp.

    I haven't tried with a plasma or tp build but right now with my photon build anything outside of normal you just aren't doing squat.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,820 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    skollulfr wrote: »
    what do you mean by balance them? balance them how?(honestly asking)
    the likely hood is that balancing them could... (and from what i have read about stos code on these forums) would require rebuilding other things to account for them.

    even my relativly simple idea of making all torps & mines aoe by default, with thy or ts only modifying the intensity or area of the blast, would likely send a few dozen other things off.

    Well easiest I can see is make them more effective vs shielding and lower their damage to compensate.

    They should be as effective against shields as energy weapons, there is nothing in canon to support that they're not.

    If fact in canon some of the most devastating weapons were torpedoes!

    What nearly took out the Enterprise A and the Excelsior single handed? A B'rel that could fire torpedoes while cloaked.

    What stopped the Undine/8472 in their tracks when the Borg were helpless? Bio-Molecular torpedoes!

    What did Voyager use to fight off the Borg and escape back to the Alpha Quadrant? Transphasic torpedoes!

    It's clearly written into canon that torpedoes are effective weapons but never once have I ever heard one captain ever say *Fire the torpedoes once their shields are down* never.
  • pyrogxmk3pyrogxmk3 Member Posts: 206 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Sure, but as we've discovered, thanks to the way this is coded/scripted, so will ANY other change whatsoever anyways. May as well be good ones.

    Balancing is, conceptually, simple. Each weapon has a DPS. We know this because a majority of them show it in the tooltip. Well, that's if we didn't already know that weapons do damage and that time is a factor in combat. Because, you know, TIME. So if a beam array at 100 energy (because we're lying to ourselves pretending anyone has it as low as 50 total) has 700 DPS, and a torpedo launcher has 640 DPS, you know one of these two is weaker than the other.

    Additionally, then, that torpedo gets cut by 75%. We'll be ridiculously generous and say this only happens 75% of the time (that 7 oughta be a 9, but we're being conservative and optimistic and all those other dev-y things here). So. You've got a weapon with 700 DPS, and one with 280 DPS. Solution should be obvious here.

    We know weapons in this are also calculated by Arc of fire...

    Where it gets harder is multiple weapons. Not that much harder on the energy side (drain calculations, increase/reduce output accordingly). But on the torpedo side, suddenly that DPS takes another hit if there's another launcher in the same arc. Over, say, 12 seconds, each of three energy weapon will have three cycles. But torpedoes? Even with no reload time, the GCD means no more than 6 shots come out. That's 2 cycles per photon, for example, of that same,lower, DPS.


    THIS is where work needs to be done. What to do about, around, or against the GCD and how it completely changes launcher dynamics (while I say torpedo, I rather mean all projectiles overall).
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