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State of the Game - DR:FAW Or Else.
pulserazor
Member Posts: 590 Arc User
For some time now the community has been asking for harder content, complaining that the most difficult content offerings were too easy but instead of really looking at Why the content was too easy they have patched the problem by adding heaps of hitpoints to npc's.
If you ever take the time to install a program that can read and parse the combat log you would quicky find out that among the people who complain that the game is too easy, they are all playing as or with Fire At Will cruisers who dont even use torpedos or clickable damage-dealing consoles. It was quite simply the most efficient way to play the game.
Now after DR, using the uber skill FAW is even more important. The success one has in an advanced or elite stf is directly proportionate to the amount of FAW that was used. In every combat log I have read where I considered the run to be successful, each participant has used FAW and that single skill has accounted for the bulk of their damage.
Would it have been that difficult to address the overpowered skill FAW, instead of taking the single skill that was empowering people to faceroll content and make it even more necessary?
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It used to be that if only one or two players were using FAW it was enough to complete the run, and no one woudl really notice how there might be 2 or 3 players who were only pulling 2k dps with an array of pointless weapons and skills. I am not saying that was better, but this new difficulty isnt really inspiring people to elevate their knowledge of the game to an 'Advanced' state, it is merely inspiring them to spec fully into beams, and build every ship they have around the highest rank of fire at will they can slot on their ship, or even buy the ship that they can slot the most FAW3.
These DPS channels are great, but they have become a gruesome joke where people try out not to prove they can achieve a certain level of DPS, but to merely prove that they are using FAW, since that skill will invariably produce results that no other skill will.
Nerfing FAW is certainly not the answer by itself, the heaps of hitpoints have to go, it would be enough to increase the hitpoints proportionate to the amount of power creep suggested by the MK14 Epic gear, which hardly suggests 10x the damage output. After the heaps of hitpoints go, then faw can be addressed, and toned down to the other skills.
Or maybe the other skills need to be brought up to meet the level of FAW?
One thing I am certain of: Fire At Will is at the center of the problem. Not the New problem presented by the exponential hitpoint increase... the problem that was identified by people feeling the content was too easy, prior to DR. Cryptic, your solution was wrong, and it is only making the problem worse now for everyone.
Worse for everyone because now no matter what we do, we have to FAW to get things done. The content was to easy before but the solution Not To Faw. After leaving that method of gameplay, the game was reasonably challenging again.
Remove the elements that make it possible to faceroll content, dont empower those elements further
If you ever take the time to install a program that can read and parse the combat log you would quicky find out that among the people who complain that the game is too easy, they are all playing as or with Fire At Will cruisers who dont even use torpedos or clickable damage-dealing consoles. It was quite simply the most efficient way to play the game.
Now after DR, using the uber skill FAW is even more important. The success one has in an advanced or elite stf is directly proportionate to the amount of FAW that was used. In every combat log I have read where I considered the run to be successful, each participant has used FAW and that single skill has accounted for the bulk of their damage.
Would it have been that difficult to address the overpowered skill FAW, instead of taking the single skill that was empowering people to faceroll content and make it even more necessary?
--
It used to be that if only one or two players were using FAW it was enough to complete the run, and no one woudl really notice how there might be 2 or 3 players who were only pulling 2k dps with an array of pointless weapons and skills. I am not saying that was better, but this new difficulty isnt really inspiring people to elevate their knowledge of the game to an 'Advanced' state, it is merely inspiring them to spec fully into beams, and build every ship they have around the highest rank of fire at will they can slot on their ship, or even buy the ship that they can slot the most FAW3.
These DPS channels are great, but they have become a gruesome joke where people try out not to prove they can achieve a certain level of DPS, but to merely prove that they are using FAW, since that skill will invariably produce results that no other skill will.
Nerfing FAW is certainly not the answer by itself, the heaps of hitpoints have to go, it would be enough to increase the hitpoints proportionate to the amount of power creep suggested by the MK14 Epic gear, which hardly suggests 10x the damage output. After the heaps of hitpoints go, then faw can be addressed, and toned down to the other skills.
Or maybe the other skills need to be brought up to meet the level of FAW?
One thing I am certain of: Fire At Will is at the center of the problem. Not the New problem presented by the exponential hitpoint increase... the problem that was identified by people feeling the content was too easy, prior to DR. Cryptic, your solution was wrong, and it is only making the problem worse now for everyone.
Worse for everyone because now no matter what we do, we have to FAW to get things done. The content was to easy before but the solution Not To Faw. After leaving that method of gameplay, the game was reasonably challenging again.
Remove the elements that make it possible to faceroll content, dont empower those elements further
Post edited by pulserazor on
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It is a peculiar phenomenon that we can imagine events that defy the laws of the universe.
Yes, FAW > * but the solution to this is not to nerf FAW, but to boost Cannons, Torpedoes and Science Gank.
I agree with the message of this post, but you don't need BFAW to be competitive in Advanced. Still doing fine with cannons on my warbirds and escorts. Do have a few beamboats now, but only because it's been months since I ran one and I find spamming beams everywhere amusing again.
Sure, and I can list a number of builds and methods that dont use faw that are effective by themselves, but I cant post the combat log results of any stf where it cant be suggested that while I wasnt using FAW, the run was successful because 4 other people were. Show us a log of a successful stf where there was no FAW, and you can have your equal representation
This results that in most cases when you see someone use BFAW you better be prepared for a failed mission.
BFAW has actually become a liability since it requires zero skill to use and those using it often mess up a STF.
Well, I do both agree and disagree. First of all, the most important part to note is the high skill in piloting, rotation optimization and overall dedication required and expected from DPS players to pull any of this of. We are not just some monkeys that use the most overpowered stuff possible to get insane numbers, there is a lot of thought, exercise and passion needed to do any of this.
But yes, the game as a whole is vastly unbalanced when it comes to potency of weapon types, energy types and usefulness of skills. Making it balanced, whether through nerfing faw, which due to current enemy HP pools would be a big mistake though, or by hard buffing cannons and torpedo weapons, which would be a much, much more sensible approach, would greatly benefit the game though. If weapon types were balanced it would allow for a vastly more varied experience, and would make both the average player and the DPS crowd happy (especially our dedicated theory crafting number crunchers).
I for one would love to see 100k dps torp boat and cannon boat runs, and if cannons and torps ever become competitive with faw spam, you can be sure the DPS crowd will be all over it (some of our players already play with cannon boats simply because faw bores them so hard, and still pull extremely good numbers (30k+), which again proves that piloting skill trumps everything else when it comes to DPSing.
ELITE STF SPEED RECORDS (time on optional remaining):
S07: KASE: 12:54 | CSE: 13:20 | ISE: 12:38 All held personally, my POV
LOR: KASE: 13:19 | CSE: 13:47 | ISE: 13:34 None held personally, other player's POV
S08: coming soon
Bah, I don't save combat logs, but pre-DR this was practically every STB run ever. Hardly any of us ran it, stacked up to 3 torps on each end of our ship, and still beat the supposedly "elite" content effortlessly.
My point is that I wanted a challenge and to have to improve my builds, not that I wanted to see everyone take the easy way out and run BFAW. You can't go and say that only players running spammy beatboats wanted to be challenged, it's not true.
Yup, before DR an eSTF could be recoverable when a bFAW spammer nuked the cubes but those days are over. Now it's a recipe for failure. Now the problem is teaching those with the skill when NOT to use it, a hard lesson to teach when FAW is so closely linked to DPS.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
I think nit would be good to actually introduce an Ensign cannon ability of some kind.
I will say this as my testimonial:
DR was looking like an annoying chore. Then I added FAW to my beam/cannon escort and the game became fun again.
Some of those FAW boats running 40K+ Dps overall cap their single target around 35k (narcine pilots) with the majority pulling single target Dps of 20-25k. Conversely my SS boat may pull 28k average but it's single target is usually 35k or more on targets that matter, and I've seen it hit 79k single target to a cube.
ISa is the benchmark apparently but these builds utilize tons of damage and low survival builds relying on teamwork to get super high numbers. If they aren't all running together puttin out that level of damage they fold like paper or can.
At some point it will be realized that a super high single target Dps would be more beneficial to a run than a 5th FAWMitar since the high hp bags would fall way faster.
Play style plays a huge role in how high one can get effective Dps. I personally like being able to survive so I have sacrificed some Dps abilities and or gear to add to survival instead.
And FFS let it go DPS dudes, we're tired of hearing about your pilot skills and e-peen mighty-ness...
I see where you are comming from, instead of bringing the single target dps boat to the table, I opt for the heavy drain cc boat which acually amps everyone elses damage while having shared healing options, but what I do for other's damage and survivability doesent make me look good on their vaunted dps readers, (unless I faw) so I have to pug more then I would like to.
I had a few people in dps channel tell me that I was useless in my sci because I could only do 15k, and I know that anything I throw my science at is going to take more damage, deal less damage, move slower, and have no regeneration.
Point is however, options are limited, very limited. There is now a bunch of all but worthless consoles, skills, BOFF abilities ships and more.
If Cryptic only means to increase difficult is by simple increase DPS requirements, then they really need to sit down and review many, many of the current abilities/consoles/ships/skills etc. that are out there and either revise them, change them all together or just remove them. And they really need to do this sooner rather than later because I have a feeling this is only the beginning.
In general it makes little sense that any kind of AoE damage is *increasing* damage output. It's the same with TS versus HY. TS never misses and causes more damage - it is a spread for targ's sae. It's by it's very definition an unfocused attack - how can it "not miss" and do more damage than direct hits?
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Cryptic admitted (Priority One interview) that a driving force behind making the STF's tougher was video's like the those posted by the DPS channels.
My only issue is that Cryptics view into their own data is passive, meaning they only see what they're looking for. The Japori Incident proved that beyond a doubt. They checked on it only after people boasted. Heck, they even ignored the Tribble testers.
They don't know what the vast majority of players are geared towards.
The new advanced is NOT equal to the old elite. Not even close.
Building the game to create difficulty for the top few is killing the player base. It's lazy programming. It shows a lack of creative leadership.
The worst I fear is yet to come. The same podcast indicated they postponed the 'great adjustment' but that it is indeed coming.
They've nerfed everything else. So why not?
Yeah, I'd be nice if this sort of attitude went away. I mean, 15k is more than what a single player needs to be packing to get the ISA optional, and what you're contributing is far more valuable than just spamming at things.
Beam Fire at Will, a tactical boff ability. It makes your beams magically split into 2 and hit random targets with 100% accuracy. It's mindless (in average hands) but highly effective.
Cryptic, how is this good for you?
The Boff ability "Beam: Fire At Will"... PewPews lasers all over the place.
Ah yes, the very reason why I stopped using mines. Cheers for the clarification
I'm for the latter, but I don't think cannons need to be buffed...this game is so biased to energy weapons.
Well, I did the same thing and never felt a need for rep or fleet gear. Kind of hard to justify two new marks of gear and a new tier of ships to me when I didn't even need the previous high end stuff. So I can see creating a demand for that stuff being good for them. I'm happy to be putting the rep and fleet gear I bought my main to use.
I think the difficulty on the Advanced queues is fine. Hive is the only one I've found truly challenging so far, and it took a while before I got my confidence about the old Hive Elite (and there were still teams I refused to run it with). I don't think space Elite's for me, though. I just don't like the builds I'd have to use. I like my canon weapons and useless torps too much.
say what ? After all their magic making mines less of the specialized weapon they were, and into the mainstream to force a retirement of torpedo's ?
Ya, I won't use them either- another 'no skill' weapon for noobs.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Anything else that buff BFAW damage (extra weapon power, less weapon drain, more damage resistance penalties) is of course great.
They should probably nerf it, but only together with a change to NPC hit points to account for the reduced damage.
An "easy" fix for Cryptic would be to make torpedos mandatory. Escorts would require a single torpedo on the front. Cruisers would require a torpedo on the front and aft. Sci ships would gain a new aft slot that can only use torpedos. In doing so they will have nerfed the DPS ceiling, while the DPS floor remains the same. True min/maxers won't care that they got nerfed because efficiency is about adaptability. They'll still be better than the average player. And non-min/maxers won't care because nothing changed on their end.
And finally, you had all the defensives abilities you can find on what is usually a BFAW boat, and most of the time, the ability to make it A2B, a more than potent build.
A DHC ship have a lot more difficulties to move and shoot in the same time, not to mention the narrow arc and the falloff. You basically have to either avoid the AOEs, or fire.
The real problem has been the massive overcompensation by the devs by the endless (now old) cruisers are too weak threads.
Instead of leaving a properly balanced system in place, the devs screwed with stuff they have no real knowledge about, and we see the results of those actions now. Space combat is so screwed up you can't save it anymore.
At first we got no power drain BAs, along with 360° turrets, this boosted the overall power levels and made damage that much higher
Then we got more and more passives, resists and power. The result? With passive power you no longer need skills to stay alive, here comes the A2B era, everyone can take A2B, get even more power, more damage and faster skills.
The game started losing a lot of players when things got stupid easy, so what do you do then? Sell more powerful ships of course. Cruisers with Commander Tacs sell well, now you have never allowed functions (by intelligent design) of BFAW3 plus APB3 plus A2B melting everything in site.
And of course things only got worse after that, more passives, leach console, more op ships.
The problem with the game is that multiplcative damage modifiers that have been held in check by design limits for a long time have been torn down in the name of cryptic's lockbox greed. And you all fell for it of course, I mean.. STFs were easy after S6, and you whined and whined and whined until they sold you more. Now its time to whine and whine and whine about what people wanted for so long.
People don't know what they want, devs are supposed to know that, but greed can't help itself. Short term cash grabs win out over sensible design in today's market.
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