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The issues with roleplay re-examined..
nabreeki
Member Posts: 2,657 Arc User
Before I delve into the meat of this post, I want to make several things clear:
1. I guess over the years I've developed a kind of reputation as a player who, on occasion, stirs the pot in order to, in my humble opinion, bring forth real, honest discussion and debate to the STO community. Some people don't see it that way; however, I maintain that my ultimate end-goal in all this is to create solid, meaningful change to the game via player social dynamics.
2. I also recognize that I am writing this as a straight, cis-gender male of near-eastern origin, and that there are certain inherent privileges that come with being born in a still male-centered society.
Quite frankly, my issue with roleplay is this: The Federation represents a post-patriarchal, post-racial society that rewards the best attributes of mankind. Beginning in the 60s, Trek has repeatedly broken racial/gender/sexual taboos to audiences spanning multiple generations. Why, then, do many roleplayers in STO insist on stubbornly clinging to, and actively promoting, outdated notions of gender-hierarchy and patriarchy? I suppose I can understand this type of RP in the contest of Ferengi, but for players of Federation, Orion, and Klingon origins, this seems to not only mock the radical social message of Star Trek, but also
Case in point: The Orions have completely flipped the notion of patriarchy on its head -- in Orion culture, men are the slaves, the oppressed, while woman exercise real agency and power (unfortunately, they often exert this agency and power through displays of sexuality). Why, then, when I see Orions roleplaying in Quark, do I so often see names like "OrionLuvSlave" and "Slavegurl?" I can only assume that the majority of players are men themselves (but, since I cannot prove that objectively, I will use the gender-neutral pronoun "hu") who either do not understand the revolutionary social message of the Orions, or they are simple using these characters as a means to exert their male chauvinistic representations on what woman "should be:" submissive, sexually promiscuous, and easily bought.
This, to me, is counter-intuitive to the very nature of Trek. Thought I believe players RPing as Klingon females exert more agency and power than those of other races, I still find that many Federation roleplayers also continue the tradition of male gender-dominance over females, though much more subtly than that of Orions; in social interactions, it appears that female officers are often propositioned to in social settings whether they are exhibiting mutual interest or not. "Drinks" are bought, male displays of heroism and power are exhibited for the female officer (regardless, it seems, of her position or accomplishments), and the invitation to a ship or bridge is sometimes sent without previous consent.
I think if RP is to truly flourish in STO (it's currently in various states of decay), we need to question the social principles behind current RP and collaborate -- in an equal, democratic manner -- to bring RP up to the social code of the franchise it is supposed to represent.
While I welcome all opinions and constructive commentary, any hate-speech will be reported to the mods for immediate review. Let's keep it civil, everyone.
1. I guess over the years I've developed a kind of reputation as a player who, on occasion, stirs the pot in order to, in my humble opinion, bring forth real, honest discussion and debate to the STO community. Some people don't see it that way; however, I maintain that my ultimate end-goal in all this is to create solid, meaningful change to the game via player social dynamics.
2. I also recognize that I am writing this as a straight, cis-gender male of near-eastern origin, and that there are certain inherent privileges that come with being born in a still male-centered society.
Quite frankly, my issue with roleplay is this: The Federation represents a post-patriarchal, post-racial society that rewards the best attributes of mankind. Beginning in the 60s, Trek has repeatedly broken racial/gender/sexual taboos to audiences spanning multiple generations. Why, then, do many roleplayers in STO insist on stubbornly clinging to, and actively promoting, outdated notions of gender-hierarchy and patriarchy? I suppose I can understand this type of RP in the contest of Ferengi, but for players of Federation, Orion, and Klingon origins, this seems to not only mock the radical social message of Star Trek, but also
Case in point: The Orions have completely flipped the notion of patriarchy on its head -- in Orion culture, men are the slaves, the oppressed, while woman exercise real agency and power (unfortunately, they often exert this agency and power through displays of sexuality). Why, then, when I see Orions roleplaying in Quark, do I so often see names like "OrionLuvSlave" and "Slavegurl?" I can only assume that the majority of players are men themselves (but, since I cannot prove that objectively, I will use the gender-neutral pronoun "hu") who either do not understand the revolutionary social message of the Orions, or they are simple using these characters as a means to exert their male chauvinistic representations on what woman "should be:" submissive, sexually promiscuous, and easily bought.
This, to me, is counter-intuitive to the very nature of Trek. Thought I believe players RPing as Klingon females exert more agency and power than those of other races, I still find that many Federation roleplayers also continue the tradition of male gender-dominance over females, though much more subtly than that of Orions; in social interactions, it appears that female officers are often propositioned to in social settings whether they are exhibiting mutual interest or not. "Drinks" are bought, male displays of heroism and power are exhibited for the female officer (regardless, it seems, of her position or accomplishments), and the invitation to a ship or bridge is sometimes sent without previous consent.
I think if RP is to truly flourish in STO (it's currently in various states of decay), we need to question the social principles behind current RP and collaborate -- in an equal, democratic manner -- to bring RP up to the social code of the franchise it is supposed to represent.
While I welcome all opinions and constructive commentary, any hate-speech will be reported to the mods for immediate review. Let's keep it civil, everyone.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Glad to see it's unfounded.
My advice is, hop onto the Hail Ba'al thread or something. Or ask Protogoth for a SB invite and hang with the Rommie fanatics for a bit.
As with everything in this game, people are better on Qo'noS, but you have to deal with E.G.P.A.L scammer filth in zone chat (they've got automated spambots going, it's really annoying).
Between you and me, you're going to get the worst RPers at two places: Drozana and Quark's. Better to pull a Butts and just fire-extinguisher the entire map in a coordinated assault with your fleet. And do please take a video, it would be epic.
Orion females while being powerful would often be sold as slaves to other races, but as we see in Enterprise this is often done so their powerful pheromones can overwhelm the men of ships and then lead them to their doom.
my point being is that female orions will often use the sexual desire of males and their attractiveness as a weapon to their advantage so while your probably right that some are just young men reinforcing the star trek fan stereotype some may be actually be roleplaying and are hoping to lead unaware males to loosing their ship or treasure or even there freedom.
And lets not forget that Klingon females while equals in battle normally can not lead houses according to star trek lore.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
As for Orion women, being the powerful sex in their society, doesn't that give them the power to sexualise themselves and allow themselves to be sold into sex slavery?
Klingon women also have final say on who they marry and who marries their kids.
You want to marry into a Klingon house? Get the highest-ranking woman's permission or you're SOL. You're a Klingon woman who wants to get divorced? Simply tell your husband in front of witnesses that you're dumping him and sock him on the jaw.
Klingons have this strange mix of patriarchy and matriarchy; Klingon men decide where the House and the Empire are going, and Klingon women decide who gets to be part of the house and (probably) the Empire.
Klingons are cool. :cool: TlhIngan maH!
From what I remember about Betazoids it's mostly the women who lead their society, though men are in no way treated badly or as second-class citizens.
Orions are not a matriarchal society, they are a caste based society.
See : http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Orion
Now that that's out of the way, I'll attempt to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge. I think it has a lot to do with people's desires and fetishes. Some desires and fetishes resemble heinous acts or beliefs, even though the person themselves might wish no actual harm on others.
A great example is in the BDSM community. There are individuals there that enjoy dominating others, but do not wish to actually harm anyone. There are also individuals in that community that wish to be dominated. The difference here is consent. Consent allows these individuals the freedom to act out even the most barbaric practices(though I have yet to hear of anything too physically harmful) because of the consent of their partners. Not only are they accepted, but a normally socially-unacceptable aspect of their personality is free to take shape without anyone getting hurt.
I disagree that any sex being dominant should be considered "revolutionary". Especially in the context of humanity's opinion on it, even if it's in the minds of females who were once oppressed. Females oppressing males aren't anything morally better. It's nothing more than vengeance, rather than fairness. Think of it this way: In the same logic, Orions would think the Earth of (their) past is 'revolutionary'. Doesn't sound so good now, huh?
Not that there's anything wrong with the Orion race as it is. It's an alien culture, and alien cultures don't have to have as much equality as the utopian UFP.
I do think spreading awareness is a very good idea. Teaching people to RP better. But I don't agree that we should 'teach' anyone to repress their desires. Redirect them, sure. But repression of who you are is no different than what's portrayed in the Sermon on the Mount. In fact, there's a passage in it that tells you exactly that. (Matthew 5:29-30) If anything, we should encourage RPers to instead find other RPers who they know will consent to sexist or otherwise socially-imbalanced roleplay. IMHO, at least.
And for the record Nabreeki, I'm glad that you made a thread about this. Peaceful communication is the first step to understanding one another.
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have assumed most do it on fleets.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
As far as fanfic, which is related--honestly it's rare that I will ever get into a character's love life. There are much more interesting and important things to do.
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No kidding .
Well I guess it's always nice to start off a discussion by sharing a fantasy ... and most of the above qualifies as such .
As to your question -- only in Enterprise were the roles of the dominators of the Orion society reversed .
That means that through out 4 shows & various related medias , the "Orion slave girls" were just that , a commodity to be traded , to be occasionally be pitied or enjoyed by one character or another .
But Enterprise said so ... , so it's canon , right ?
Well TOS said that women cannot be starship captains (see the last episode of the show) .
And TOS is THE CANON .
Well guess what , ppl respect canon up until a point .
And just like many feel that in Kirk's era there should have been female captains (the Romulans had one) , the same way many don't see the turnabout of the Orions in Enterprise as canon for all Orions ever .
And I don't blame them .
It's far more easy to ally with once sworn enemies (Klings & Rom) , then to retkon 30 years of perception of a minor race .
Well, that would be why we Orion males, allow it. :P
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Okay a few quibbles and a reply. A woman lead society is a Matriarchy so you don't need to say they flipped a patriarchy.
And well anyone that is naming their character as a luvslave or slavegurl is probably not an in depth rper in my book as you should be a person then a label. Though they may prove me wrong.
That said I think that quite a bit of individual RP goes out the window in an RPG where everyone plays the same mission from the same POV. . . Sadly I can't think of a single time someone has asked me to RP in STO. Best I have gotten is a comment on a character bio.
So with that you have to look to the individual for what they are trying to put out as their personality. Do you see an orion lass in skimpy traditional garb looking tiny beside her compatriots? Or is she the type to bypass her cultural norm and wear full faction uniform/armour? Some Klingon females try to be feminine and others show how strong they are. Same in the republic and the federation. And as long as there are individuals each allowed to be different then I think there is still RP in game. After all not all in the Federation think the same. Why should anyone from the other factions?
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Which is somewhat unfortunate, in that it leaves those people who are fleetless to fend for themselves, trying to eke out what RP they can find in public spaces - which is rare and, from my experience in multiple games going back some fifteen years, almost always full of silliness, melodrama, virtual hookups, and other lowest-common-denominator antics. I call it "Bar RP", and it's eternal and changeless in its essential character, whether the venue is the Worlds End, Pocket D, or Drozana. People who do show talent and potential are recruited, skimmed off, leaving the public spaces in a constant state of churn.
I've even observed this in live-action RP, where the "in crowd" tend to sequester themselves in private to do their intriguing. schmoozing and backstabbing in peace, leaving the bored masses to entertain themselves by randomly acting out, pickpocketing and assaulting each other, etc. If you're lucky, you get to sit with the adults; if not, you're left at the kids table, with the little monsters flinging food around and making TRIBBLE (or Gorn) jokes.
I applaud the spirit of the Open Starbase Initiative, spearheaded by the 26th Fleet (aka Starbase 381). It was a truly noble effort, IMO, to provide people with an alternative venue and possibly expose them to other styles of roleplaying. In practice, however, it often came down to having all of the above craziness camped out in the living room...
Depressing picture of the day... nice work.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
Well, the 'Bar RP', aka, the public places known to have RP'ers... I've tried that very few times, and became disinterested really quick. Both the RP seems to be of certain direction quite often, being more of a nature of promoting 'RP-dating', as well as people, who go in there, and ruin the RP. Both of those are reasons, why I've not really pursued public RP in STO.
It seems to me, than casual RP is impossible in STO, as anything else, beyond 'bar RP's' is happening in private starbases, which is not something I'm interested in, to be in purely RP fleet. I sometimes feel like RP, but not all the times, sometimes, I just want to run STF's and chill, and I also don't like story being dictated to me either or what character/rank I'm allowed to RP,to fit their story/roster which seems to be a bit a commonplace among RP-fleets. I have my idea about my character, her crew and all that, and wouldn't want to alter that. This may be a bit of lack of information on my side, as I've only checked onto several. So this is not my attempt of saying bad things about anyone in particular.
Either way, wish there was actually public RP place, which goes beyond the 'bar-meets', which suffer from the problems Nabreeki mentioned, even.
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I call it like I see it. I'm sorry if you find that perspective (which, I concede, is incomplete and biased, as all are) depressing.
There's always going to be tension in what we laughably call "the community". You've got the ones who earnestly want to roleplay, but don't know the right people, or have the experience to pull it off without falling into first-year acting/scriptwriting silliness. You have the elitists who often look down unfairly on those, forgetting that they too had to start somewhere and rely on the charity and patience of others. You've got the ones who just want to get their clothes off and their "cyber" on. You've got those who find entertainment in trolling some or all of the above. And more, and more... and still, all of these are but a tiny subset of the vast majority that doesn't care, for whom this is all just one more game, and think you (we) are weird for even trying.
For what it's worth, it's a bigger and more educated picture than mine, I don't like to rate my RPing, I expect most I've RPed with would say it's bad to terrible but in a casual RP setting I find it fun. As a result I've never thought to join an RP fleet because I just don't think I'd fit
Still... I think I'll watch this thread for a while.
I'll go one step further and say that there is no unilateral "community".
The RP "community" actually consists of several communities. This is something that is not unique to STO, but it is very obvious for those who have been here a while.
There are too many players who think they know what real Star Trek RP is. This does come down to the No True Scotsman fallacy, but they simply do not care. You have RPers who want RP to be more like TOS. You have RPers who want RP to be more like TNG, RPers who want more of a DS9 RP. RPers who prefer the grimdark antihero Section 31 type RP. Romulan RP. KDF RP.
There is something for everyone, but everyone more or less prefers to pretend the other RPers do not exist for their own benefit.
So many Trekkies think they have the only correct interpretation of RP, and they only want other elitists who think like they do. The elitists you speak of are not one group. They are elitists of elitists of elitists.
The RP "community" is far larger than many RPers know. They do not know this because they think the RP "community" consists entirely of them and the RPers they know. Not the RPers they don't know. Either because they are not one of "them" or because they prefer to remain closed-minded.
It does not help there are fleet leaders and RP "community" leaders who prefer to keep 'their' RPers in the dark about other RP circles for fear of losing them. There are those who prefer misinformation and gossip in order to manipulate people into thinking they are the only bastion of RP in the entire game.
There is a lot of "us" and "them" mentalities when it comes to RP. Some RPers prefer to remain what they perceive to be true to Trek canon.
Some RPers have no interest in Star Trek canon at all and choose to form the Star Trek IP around their ideas. It is another form of creativity. But some do not like that. However, there are some who do.
The amount of niche RPs in this game is astounding, and that is just from my personal observation. I am sure there is far more that I am simply not aware of because I do not associate with those RPers or know anything about them.
However, you have one of the most informative and educative posts about the current state of RP in the game, and in my opinion one of the most truthful ones.
There is also the uncomfortable truth that there are many RPers who see other RPers as little more than novelties. A form of advanced AI who exist solely for their own entertainment. Once the entertainment novelty wears off, you are thrown aside and ignored for the next shiny RPer who catches their interest.
The amount of disconnect between RPers in this game is unhealthy, but it is what it is. As an RPer, you are a toy to someone else. You are not a person. You are there for them, not vice versa.
Personally, I prefer thinking of RP as a cooperative creative writing project. Not a game, per se.
I applaud you for taking these steps, Nabreeki.
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I think my doctorate just melted.
I remember seeing people ask for "RP" in various zones but then I realized they meant Raiding Party. :rolleyes:
That is why in most RPGs you have a GM. Someone to act as a referee and guide. In most MMOs, I think, the players have to agree before hand the general direction and rules they are going to RP by.
Douglas MacArthur - Quote on the dedication plaque of the U.S.S. Ranger NCC-97332-A Armitage class Fleet Heavy Strike Wing Escort.