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Reuniting the sons and daughters of Raptor Star
rosetyler51
Member Posts: 1,631 Arc User
Please note, I'm Republic first and foremost but I do not agree with all of D'Tan's ideals. This thread is to talk about what can be to bring Republic and Imperial Romulans back under one flag. Thanks to a few stand out people within the Imperial Navy I have gain some level of respect for their actions to guard Romulan lives.
So lets get started.
First things first, Empress Sela paying for her crimes and a very large investigation into Tal'Shiar. Both of them used their power to ruin and end Romulan lives.
Next an Imperial representative should be given a seat in the Republic Senate. To show that even with all of the crime and corruption that made up the later part of the reign of the Star Empire the Republic is willing to let bygones be bygones.
And lastly I do think the Republic should sent a taskforce to give aid to the Romulans far from home in the Iota Pavonis, Psi Velorum, and Alpha Centauri regions of space.
Once all of this is done I think then we can start bring the Imperial Navy into the Republic forces.
So lets get started.
First things first, Empress Sela paying for her crimes and a very large investigation into Tal'Shiar. Both of them used their power to ruin and end Romulan lives.
Next an Imperial representative should be given a seat in the Republic Senate. To show that even with all of the crime and corruption that made up the later part of the reign of the Star Empire the Republic is willing to let bygones be bygones.
And lastly I do think the Republic should sent a taskforce to give aid to the Romulans far from home in the Iota Pavonis, Psi Velorum, and Alpha Centauri regions of space.
Once all of this is done I think then we can start bring the Imperial Navy into the Republic forces.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
As long as those are around there won't be any glorious romulan reunifacation going on any time soon.
Firstly, the turning over of Empress Sela isn't happening. She got taken by the Iconians at the end of the Romulan story campaign and nothing has been heard about her since. Even if she was still around running the RSE, she will not submit like that. One sovereign power does not let another power dictate something like that unless they've been crushed in war.
Secondly, you want an investigation into the Tal Shiar, which means you want to prosecute. That's not going to happen unless the RSE and Tal Shiar have been crushed and defeated. Because for a sovereign power to allow another outside entity to exercise something like that means one thing:
Defeat in war with the victor dictating what's going to happen.
Unless D'Tan and the Romulan Republic and the Romulan Star Empire are willing to let past incidents go for the sake of Romulan unity, there is going to be no reunificaiton without total military conquest and defeat of the other. And even after that, there has to be some sort of agreement in the sharing of power.
Yeah. That's not going to happen.
Total military conquest and the submission of one to the other is the only way Romulan unification is going to happen again.
Edit to add: Also OP, your statement that the whole RSE will get "one seat" in the Romulan Republic shows absolute subjugation of the other and no sharing of power. The RSE would never submit like that. Not unless they were conquered.
There are very sharp differences in creating unity with open arms, diplomacy, as well as military conquest. Diplomacy requires give & take. Conquest is more straight forward, but costly. The victor however dictates everything that will happen from that point onwards.
Reinsitution of the Original Romulan Senate, with separate representation for all colony worlds? I can see that happening. Only one representative for the entire RSE? Not likely. While there are good ideas here, they are not fully thought out. I think further discussion should help to flesh out, quantify, and refine those ideas.
Thank you! It amazes me how naive people are when it comes to the prosecution of war crimes. Only the victors decide who gets punished and who get forgiveness for transgressions. I do agree that while D'Tan might be willing to forgive most of the rank and file of the Tal Shiar, many of those in the agency who are in positions of power would never forgive the slights both precieved and real that the Republic has dealt to the Tal Shiar.
A amnesty from both sides beside for some very special persons (surely on the side of the Remans/Republicans some people were involved in very great crimes too, for example some Remans during the Shinzon-rising) would be a good idea, I think. Both sides had done wrong things, things even many of their own side did not accept, but it would not lead further if this result in endless trials. So punishment should be reserved for some special cases, cases in which ANY sanity were broken. Surely Hakeev and some other elements who are the forefront of playing with Iconian Tech and selling people towards the Elachi are even not respected by their fellow TS-members (who are often not aware what these guys have done) - and several actions of radical Remans and Romulans Republicans are deeply condemned by the majority of their side, too.
A senate which is formed after terms of the number of people someone represent (it would be unjust if Rator III and other imperial worlds would not have a adequate representation) might be a important step. It would give the Romulans and Remans what they lack since Selas disappearance (and even before) - a legitimated leadership, which could speak for nearly all of them (anyway what Obisek and D'Tan might claim, they never were elected in a legal way, so they claim to leadership is in doubt at best).
This new formed senate would include members of the old noble families, some Remans and members from the Republic and the Imperial/TS forces and administration which had did their duty to protect the people in their part of the empire. He than would decide over the questions of leadership in the new Romulan/Reman Empire (Praetor and Vice-praetor, two consuls, direct rule through the senate, perhaps the crowning of an new emperor or empress, what so ever, that would be to decided and the people must be elected). It would mean in any case that the new Star Empire would have much elements of the old - it would surely mean the end of D'Tans "new society" and "re-uniting with Vulcan", since I guess for that a majority would never be possible. A agreement with the Remans would be a important part and that would be a thing in which the traditional elements would have to giving up some of their positions. The Intelligence Service and the Armed Forces and Administration had to be build from members of all the different sides - surely a painful process, but necessary - if the war should not be fought to a bitter end (what would from many Romulans point of view insane after the huge losses).
That might sound like I am saying they need to step down or apologize to the RR. That is not the case however. The mistake is they have gotten used to handling things through fear. When they were a tool of the Empire, this fear guided the people to work together and keep the empire strong. Latching them to the concept that if they did good by the ruling of the leadership they had nothing to fear of the Tal Shiar. With the Tal Shiar taking over they have expanded their control through fear and even obedient citizens may be destroyed as it is their 'place' to serve their betters. This crushes hope in the government. The more the Tal Shiar lose the tighter they reign in their people and the harsher to them they get. With no solace from what claims to be the RSE they will look to the RR as the next best romulan choice.
For the Tal Shiar to remain as the empire they need to rebuild their people and nurture them to loyalty. A true believer will march to his death against impossible odds. While an army of the afraid will turn from that which they fear more.
If the Tal Shiar wishes to merge with the RR they need to remember the lessons of their forefathers. Ever move is a chess game, and leave no one knowing where the blade at their back will come from. Select public leadership for the Tal Shiar that wishes peace. Let that public face rejoin the Republic openly and bring many if not all worlds of the RSE under one banner. Let this new politician group enter the ranks of the bureaucrats running the Republic. From here they can bring in more and more of their old networks. Let this network support senate leaders they agree with and eventually they will be the force behind the throne. With their chosen sitting upon it.
But all this requires the leadership in the Tal Shiar to realize they are playing outside their strengths.
For the Republic to bring down the Tal Shiar/RSE remnant. They must just be patient. Hold a hand out to their brothers and sisters on imperial worlds and wait for them to take that hand. As the balm to the Tal Shiar burns, people will flock to them and offer support to never see the pain inflicted on them and theirs again.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
And I want to add that many Romulans inside the Republic surely will dream about beeing able to travel again to Rator III and other key Imperial worlds, meeting their relatives etc. I guess a lot support D'tan not because they honestly believe in his (in many eyes) childish dreams, but because he was the best of several bad options they thought they have left. Any attempt of a reunification with the Imperial Space would surely leading towards some kind of Exodus away from the still dangerous and under-developed "New Romulos" on which they live partly only because of the ok of the Feds and the Kligons, a world which is still contested and unsafe (not only because of Tal Shiar fighters and Hunters, but also because of Tholians). Rator III would be much more the place for a new government which could speak for all Romulans with some kind of legal power, at least in they eyes of many. The only thing D'Tan has is the Sword of the Raptor Star, but that is not much for such a nobody with a dream and behavior which many Romulans with good cause find somekind of alien (for example - his great hero and teacher Spock is guilty of crimes against the Romuland people, when he supported Cpt. Kirk and his actions, which lead to the death of Romulans servicemen and -women).
As for how the Tal Shiar will probably act, one only needs to look at the "secret police" and "internal security" such as the Gestapo, KGB, and other totalitarian reigems to get an accurate prediction. Maybe it comes across as monolithic and cliche, but totalitarian dictatorships usually are. Again, I point to the examples of Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Tito, Castro, Chavez, Pinoche, Pol Pot, and the like.
But of course a war to the end would nearly certain mean the submission of the Romulan Republic. They have only few planets, and even their main world, New Romulos, is far from beeing secure. Compared to the worlds of the Imperial Remnants this is a very fragile power base, and even more if you see how stupid D'Tan acted by sending his few people as far away as Deferi Space and Delta Quadrant. The power of the Republic is by any logic streched too far.
And I think it is far too simple to wave with human examples. The TS is the TS not the KGB, not the Gestapo (as the Klingons are not the Wehrmacht, not the Huns, not the whatever - they are Klingons) - an organization which dates back over decades or even centuries and is an integrated part of many praetors rules - not their enemy. It was part of the Romulan Empire for very long, and while surely not loved, it was part of reality. Any values of a society comes in great parts from their history and their core values (while sometimes some outside influence may have impact on PARTS of the society - but rarely the majority). And the Romulan tradition is much more one of a strong state with a strong political leadership (not elected in short breaks, say all four to seven years, but for longer - if there is any vote, and the voting body is more the Senate than the people). One men - one vote is nothing we find so often in the Romulan society. A strong security service and distrust towards outsiders are also more or less a tradition. To think that D'Tans alien-influenced believings could find a majority is naiv, I think. Most Romulans surely would dream more about security, unity and what they see as honor, than of "freedom" and reunification with the Vulcans, buddying with old enemies - what are the things D'Tan stands for.
So a agreement is not easy (nobody has claimed that) but possible. And of course FAR mor possible than the dream of a Romulan-Vulcan-Reunification D'Tan and his bunch of radicals argue for (I mean, breaking with all for what the other side stand was a key core of the self-defining of BOTH sides over thousands of years, and people who did not share this point of view were punished in the past - I guess Vulcans who did embrace emotions and tried to become "more Romulan" could only exile, and Romulans who want to give up the way of life of the Empire for Vulcan logic were surely punished by ther various secret services).
And by the way - did you know that a former KGB-agent rules today-Russia and many/most Russians are fine with that... Although they have not forgotten the Soviet Union and its disadvantages. You put things together which are not the same as if they were not different, a very complicated thing if you want to use history as argument (there are worlds between Chavez and Hitler, and between the way their states are organized), and use it as examples for a complete alien society as the Romulans are. A society which has not much in common with the human. This is tricky, and in many cases surely simply wrong.
But I'm with the nay-sayers who don't think that a D'Tan inspired republic will merge well with the Star Empire remnants. Even my Romulan character sided with the Republic because she had nowhere else to go really. A single T'Liss warbird full of civilian colonists is easy prey for anyone.
But she and her mostly-romulan crew certainly don't share in D'Tan's dreams of reunification with the Vulcans. They question his choice of Dewa III as the new homeworld in a contested and dangerous area with Tholians hanging about on it. Personal freedom and lack of fear from a secret service works for them, but yet they're accustomed to the old Empire's ways.
So that's just how my character and the Romulans of her crew feel. Its not a stretch to think that many Romulan civilians have sided with the Republic and settled on New Romulus just because its the safest option. Many may well still dream of a society closer to the old Empire but accept the Republic just because its the best option right now.
Even giving the faction some element of differentiation to the federation would have been preferable to D'tan kumbaya diplomacy. There could have been all sorts of missions about stealing technology, infiltrating the upper echelons of starfleet or the KDF, instead it's generic peace ramblings.
Any why not use the dagger-in-the-night tactic sometimes? Interfering with foreign species by helping those to rise in power who are useful for you, would be a interesting option...
First, the Tal Shiar is not the Empire. They are a secret police. They took control in the chaos following Hobus and a small number of their leaders have lead the empire to ruin. This must be rectified before there is any reconciliation. The Tal Shiar needs to be removed from power and control given back to the Imperial Navy. Control of the Empire's government needs to return to the Senate. The Tal Shiar needs to return to it's old ways of operating. From shadows and secrets, working to protect the Empire from internal and external threats. Romulans lived in fear of them, but they were safe in a stable empire.
Once the Empire has been re-established, then peace with the republic can begin. D'Tan needs to stop talking like he represents all Romulans. He does not. He controls a colony world. That is all the Republic is. A Romulan Colony that broke away from the Empire. It should be recognised as such. He speaks only for the Republic, not all Romulans. The Empire needs to allow the colony to flourish and grow at it's own pace. Open trade with them. Defend them when they need help, as they will help defend the Empire. After all, we are still brother and sister Romulans. Any treaties made by the Republic will not be hnoured by the Empire. They can make peace with everyone and go interfere with the other side of the galaxy. Let them. It's their resources. The Empire will look after it's own interests closer to home. And if the republic needs assistance from the Empire for mor eresources or whatever, then they can open a trade negotiation. That's just how I view the situation.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
That may be a good first step, and a lot of the things you said is true, but I think it may be not enough. At first I am sceptic that D'Tan and his inner circle of supporters will accept that. It is their believe to "rescue" the people from the "bad ways" of the "evil Empire". So any group inside the Empire which is not satisfied - and as we know, there are ever such people - may call for his help. What then?
And of course many Romulans in the Empire will be not easily accept the idea that some of their people break away. And what is with people from both sides who want to live in the other state? What with colonies from both sides who want to change sides? There WILL be such examples, I guess. Such things easily could went out of control. So peace without reunification is a good step, and necessary, but it has to go further.
I also do not believe that separation is necessary. The ideology of some of the leaders differ. Those of the greatest part of the people does not. They want stability, unity, security, enough to eat and a warm shelter. D'Tans babbling about reunification with the Vulcans or forging a new society are of little interest for most of them - they accept that for now as part of the package they have to buy if they want to live in relative safe conditions.
And given the fact that the times are dangerous separated Romulans will very easy fall separated, while they could prosper only united. D'Tans Flotilla and the colonies/ so called New Romulos and their Reman allies are a force that matter, although they are much weaker, less good trained and lead than the combined imperial forces and the TS (By the way, I must say it shows a lot that D'Tan was even not able to create a own name of his "city upon a hill", but must steal it from Selas Empire, in which Nova Roma was called so, if I remember right).
It is not only a question of the Tholians, the Hirogen, the Voth, the Iconians or other "alien" enemies. Even to counter (in some sort of balance of power) the influence of the Federation and the Klingons all Romulans must be united. Our ancestors left Vulcan to fulfil their destiny. I do not believe that falling apart is a good way to honour their dreams. We all have relatives on both sides. Did we want to accept that they have to life in different nations only because we are not willing to try to solve our differences?
(the following is somehow complicated because I could not say how much known the "hidden-camera"-recording is)
All that could avoided if D'Tan had decided to side with the TS-group which made contact with him soon after Sela disappeared. How he could not use this chance is beyond my imagination. All he had to would be giving up some of his cursed "honour" and principles, and so show that he is willing (and able *g*) to sleep with the "devil" (from his perspective). What would be - and I hope all who read that will forgive me - not be such a HUGE sacrifice in the case of that special devil...
If anything showed very early what a stupid SOB he is, than that. Of course he may not trust the TS, but let the chance slipping away to end the war, end the dying of his people and those in the Empire just to save his f****** dream of a new society blablabla?
There are probably issues and problems with my simplistic way of viewing the galaxy, but I am a soldier, not a diplomat.
A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
My character Tsin'xing
But would that be still the case if the Empire has another leadership? Sela is gone, at least for now - so I think a lot would depend on the question who is replacing her. If it would be someone who is not so in doubt, a person who could be respected even from Donatras followers, than the problem would be much lesser, I guess. The problem is we did not know if someone (and what kind of person) is replacing Sela or at least ruling the Empire in her absense, or if it slips back towards civil war as before her reign.
grylak
In-game
Well, I think we both share a lot of ideas and dreams, and I hope they will come true one day.
As you I deny the right of D'Tan to decide what the people of Republic has to want and has to do. His legitimacy is a joke so far (never heard that he had face re-election by the Senate or the people after his movement grows and settled on Second New Romulos, so de facto he ist still only leader because he was leader of the flotilla - and because he made buddy with the Fed, the Klingons and the Vulcans and CLAIM to be chief). No one could say how long he would stay in power if he ever had to face the people he claim to speaking for. For now they did not raise up against him because they are told every day that only under his rule and under the protection of his friedns they are safe from the "bad bad evil" (may it be TS, Tholians, Hirogen, the Elachi or Iconians - and if that all would not be enough I guess D'Tan and his followers would find out that a deadly Eppoh-uprising is at hand, which New Romulos could only survive under her leadership). This has to be accpeted, because many of the are of course thraumatized after all the hardship they passing through. They would follow anyone who offer them a warm blanket and a cup of soup, so to speak, and safe them from beeing enslaved by vultures like the Orion Syndikate, some Ferengi crimelords etc.
If the Empire would be trying more to offer them alternatives or if some people in the Republic offer and alternative to the stile of leadership of D'Tan, this may change. But sadly I was until now not able to find such a group of nobles, senators or whatsoever inside the Republic (which I of course would gladly support as far as my limited possibilities could help) - of cause I am (different to D'Tan) so stupid to believe that I could be a good leader. Military personal are not the best candidates since we mostly lack experience, many of them had no legal claim to power since they are from middle or low heritage, and military rule is not so good for Romulans, we are no Klingons, and none of us want bring back the times of coups etc.
But with people like you on the Imperial side (I am thinking more and more about leaving the Republic completly) I think there is hope. I hope it is not to late for all of us...
My character Tsin'xing
This is ridiculous. It's like saying there should have been a TRIBBLE in the German 'senate' after World War II 'to show that even with all of the crime and corruption that made up the later part of the reign of the German Empire, the Republic is willing to let bygones be bygones.'
Romulan Institute
D'Galan - Engineer
I mean the total chaos which was before Sela ended the civil war, when there were several people claim the throne. The fighting of pro-imperial factions against each other. That the civil war with the Republic did not end is true (although I asking myself how the Republic could fight if they send their ships so far away...).
umiharayuu
I rather would say it is ridiculous to use time and again the TRIBBLE-example, both in-game and out-game.
In-game because it would meaning nothing for a Romulan, and no Romulan would use the history of a species as example his people distrust or even hated (the several conflicts with the humans are no good fundament for an understanding). Those who used it show only that they are human slaves, brainwashed by D'Tans Human and Vulcan masters (or at least their enemies would say so). So use examples from Romulan history in-game, I would say.
Out-game it make also no sense because it make no sense if you use a human dictatorship to set it as eaquel to an alien empire with a complete different society and history. The TS and the Empire are not, let me spell it, N-O-T the Third Reich/Gestapo. They even have not much common with them. To pillage history to find arguments is possible, but you could also say the Romulan Empire is more like the Roman Empire, or the British, or...and soon this argument you made would disappear...
As I said in the past, some people find it perhaps appealing to think they playing Inglorious TRIBBLE in the space, shooting TRIBBLE out there, but that is not a common perspective, I think.
Not so hard to imagine, IMO, esp when one considers that the we are mainly talking about the Tal Shiar being the ones committing crimes here. An 'Imperial representative' isn't really the same thing. Not letting folks with Imperialistic leanings in the senate would just be mass disenfranchisement of the populace at that point. Besides, we already know the Republic has no issue with recruiting ex-Tal Shiar members into their military and intelligence services, so It's not that far of a stretch.
My character Tsin'xing
Which is why I suggested that there should be more missions, particularly at Sub-Commander, Commander, and Vice Admiral where the player goes to some of those high profile personas, such as Donatra's confidant and friend, Commander Suran. Another major coup would be if the player convinces Grand Field Marshal Tebok to throw his support behind the Republic.
Further, it would be neat to encounter some of the people on New Romulus in early missions. For example, if Toreth from the Epohh fields is indeed the same Toreth who commanded the IRW Khazara in "Face of the Enemy" (TNG), then one of the Subcommander missions would be to recruit her and her crew into the Republic(and earn Romulan Reputation marks in the process).