I have to agree... but I have little hope that people will change since this sort of pomp and ceremony seems to be getting worse over time and not better. The modern concept of a "proper burial" is a very modern thing that seems to have originated during the Dark Ages in Europe.
i think burials have been around far longer than that...
but at least there was a good reason for it during the middle ages - namely, the black plague
a buried corpse may remain plague-ridden, but at least the living can no longer come in contact with it
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I have to agree... but I have little hope that people will change since this sort of pomp and ceremony seems to be getting worse over time and not better. The modern concept of a "proper burial" is a very modern thing that seems to have originated during the Dark Ages in Europe.
I know its getting worse in some paces around the world, There was a bit of a movement for more natural burial I think they called it, which was basically a sheet of fabric and a hole in the ground, no wasteful materials and everything in the hole is supposed to biodegrade relatively fast
But many places don't allow it as they have very strict rules on the burial of human remians, and its not legal to do so, this may be for cultural or religious reasons, or just legislators dragging their heels, I don't know
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All that matters is that the Kobali conflict administration does not also run the adoption agency. I would have no problems with the Kobali in the game if they were used for anything other then fighting in their behalf.
I'm sure that ensign who retained her memories may have influenced them a lot and have been able to open door for both sides.
My problem is we show up in the delta quadrant and then we are fighting for them. It is too soon. They needed to introduce them and then over time maybe become allies. But to show up and just start fighting for them in an adventure zone seems wrong as all conflict does is allow them more prospective members.
There is still no reason for them to want to end a conflict where some one else fights for them. It is a win win scenario.
I have to agree... but I have little hope that people will change since this sort of pomp and ceremony seems to be getting worse over time and not better. The modern concept of a "proper burial" is a very modern thing that seems to have originated during the Dark Ages in Europe.
Umm, no. Otherwise you wouldn't have ancient burial mounds dotted all over Europe, or evidence of burials as far back as archeology goes. Heck, Islam has *very* strict rules about the burial of the dead (which like many such strictures, probably have a practical grounding in hygiene).
Cultures which don't bury or burn their dead are *very* unusual, the only one I can think of is the Zoroastrians...
Umm, no. Otherwise you wouldn't have ancient burial mounds dotted all over Europe, or evidence of burials as far back as archeology goes. Heck, Islam has *very* strict rules about the burial of the dead (which like many such strictures, probably have a practical grounding in hygiene).
Cultures which don't bury or burn their dead are *very* unusual, the only one I can think of is the Zoroastrians...
Let's take a closer look at that shall we?
You are quite right in that burial mounds are common. Some places in the US have them too. But... not all of the people in those regions used them, and the burials were often pretty simple.
Many native American groups had/have the equivalent of cemeteries, but they didn't actually bury the dead in them.
One of the most common ancient practices was a variation of the family crypt idea. Some of them were caves, others man-made structures. These did not have coffins in them and the bodies were often laid on the floor to decompose. Afterwards the bones would be pushed into a corner. Some famous examples of this approach are the catacombs under Paris and Rome.
Anyways when I said "modern concept of a "proper burial"" I was specifically referring to the modern practice of burying preserved corpses in coffins. Most of the ancient practices didn't leave such long lasting traces behind.
Granted there have been several notable exceptions, but most of the well preserved corpses from antiquity are accidentally preserved.
The Egyptians are the most famous exception, but the Egyptians are also known for a practice where the people who maintained a tomb lived inside it. and this wasn't the sort of burial that involved mummification.
One idea that was seemingly used only once, was making an air-tight coffin and filling it with liquid mercury... this was done by the ancient Chinese, and actually preserved the body so well that a proper autopsy was possible.
Anyways, my basic point was about elaborate burial ceremonies, not burial ceremonies in general. More specifically, the idea of making a permanent monument to the dead.
One idea that was seemingly used only once, was making an air-tight coffin and filling it with liquid mercury... this was done by the ancient Chinese, and actually preserved the body so well that a proper autopsy was possible.
Ah, yes. Xin Zhui, the Lady of Dai, buried at Mawangdui. Actually, it didn't happen just once. Apparently, they found at least two more buried using the same embalming fluid, but the tombs were nowhere near as elaborate as hers, one of which was buried in Shanghai and was uncovered when they were starting to lay the foundation for a skyscraper! There was a very interesting National Geograhpic Channel special on the three "eternal" mummies.
It was seen several times in Star Trek, the "space burial"; first with Spock, then with Jadzia, and Janeway in "Coda" (though that was merely a hallucination). Arguably, the torpedo sarcophigas was suppose to either incinerate during atmospheric re-entry (stellar or planetary).
I do agree with the previous poster that it makes no sense for the Alpha Quadrant Alliance to be working alongside the Kobali so soon. There needs to be a build up much as there was for the Republic allying with the two major powers.
There is still no reason for them to want to end a conflict where some one else fights for them. It is a win win scenario.
Let's just put it this way.
We are not carrying them through the Kobali warzone. All those little soldiers aren't just sitting back and sipping lemonade while the great alliance warriors walk over the Vaadwuar. They're still doing most of the work, and by far taking the heaviest losses. A few FED/KDF/ROM twits wandering around the place doesn't make their war suddenly a picnic. It just means they aren't loosing as badly.
And as for an introduction, the Vaadwuar's campaign against other DQ species is well established by the point you get to Kobali prime and so is the alliance's position towards that [its in fact part of the main plot arc]. Its not an abrupt transition.
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I'm looking forward to cryptic f**king things up again, and poor writing.
You'll be disappointed. The dialog, plot, and voice acting are all quite good even on more general video game standards (hell of a lot better IMO than major AAA releases of late, particularly the last one). The various races are well presented, your role well defined and implemented, the plot well structured and paced, and the game makes great use of the various types of missions to do so.
Now I'm sure that you can wish hard enough to still have a laugh or two but do try to take a more objective approach to the upcoming campaign. It can be quite impressive.
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I still agree with the OP about the Kobali.. why.. I'll see how it is when it eventually stablizes on holodeck a week or so after release.
If there are anything to do with the kazon..ugh I hope not. When i rewatch voyager, I skip the episodes with kazon. They're just uglier versions of cardasians and not as interesting.
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I still agree with the OP about the Kobali.. why.. I'll see how it is when it eventually stablizes on holodeck a week or so after release.
I can't say anything without spoiling. Just try to keep an open mind.
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With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
I don't like the idea as well. To me the are grave robbers and uses the dead bodies for their own reproduction.
To me they are no better than the Vidians going around harvesting organs to keep alive, the Borg who forces you to join them, and the Elachi who transformed a living person into their own.
However I would give the story a chance. Who knows after 32 years, perhaps they found a new way to keep their species going? Or wanting help from the Federation/KDF/Romulan alliance to over come what plight that restricts their reproductions. Even at one point the Vidians and Malon was thinking about changing their ways if given the moment. It kinda worked for the Hirogen as well.
Granted the plight they have. You would be surprised what people do in extreme conditions in order to survive. So in a way I don't blame them for their actions. They are after survival.
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Kobali were mostly chosen because they were restricted to one episode and had very very little to show where as other races/organizations had what you would call a KDF complex involved with possible cash grabs. Paying off any involved from actors on so that would require licensing made it the obvious choice. That and most cultures find grave robbing repulsive so its easy on that front to insert it into sto since its only function is combat where as that was not a high priority for the federation to jump the gun and start shooting aliens lol.
Although they could be using this as a prelude with story telling on their version of what created the borg. Being borg in a way kind of look a like with the kobali and it could just be that the kobali originally had split up into factions that chose becoming the borg as a resolution to their reproductive problems and then kobali reanimating dead corpses instead of taking living individuals and forcing them to become the borg. Which is why both reasons were flawed but even with good intentions they are still messing with ethics but the nature of the beast for self preservation always wins out.
Interesting thought. Especially since canon Borg Queens have always been Kobali so far. I know they never stated that specifically, but they do look like Kobali.
Interesting thought. Especially since canon Borg Queens have always been Kobali so far. I know they never stated that specifically, but they do look like Kobali.
Perhapse in "soft" canon. Has the Kobali been described as species 125? That was the species of Susanna Thompson's Queen. I couldn't tell you if that was also the case for Alice Kruge's Queen.
As far as I am concerned, each one was actually a different assimilated person, while the "Queen" personality itself is merely the "program" or "operating system" that manifests as the "individual" voice. Almost like the Go'auld from Stargate. However, unlike the "snake in the head" parasite, the "program" is not physical and merely downloads into a new Queen when the current one is destroyed. That makes her MUCH harder to kill, and more akin to an idea.
How do you kill an idea? How do you delete or kill a program that has backup copies of istelf in every hardrive and server? When thinking in that regard, it makes the Borg more akin to the ant colony as originally envisioned rather than a beehive as it has become.
Sorry I went off on a tangent. The thoughts just started racing. Getting back to the issue you originally started, I would not be in the least bit surprised if the Borg got its revival technology form the Kobali, a more primative verison to be sure, but it would make perfect sense.
Interesting thought. Especially since canon Borg Queens have always been Kobali so far. I know they never stated that specifically, but they do look like Kobali.
They dont look like Kobali, they look like reanimated corpses, just like the diusgusting Kobali do. I bet they smell terrible
If it were up to me, I would wipe them all out. I am already Fleet Admiral, in an expansion or two I should make Emperor. Then we shall have peace.
Perhapse in "soft" canon. Has the Kobali been described as species 125? That was the species of Susanna Thompson's Queen. I couldn't tell you if that was also the case for Alice Kruge's Queen.
Skin tone and "features" are remarkably similar, as is the overal cranial structure. The ears are different though, I'll give you that.
Then again, it wouldn't be the first time an alien species has been visualized inconsistently on ST (*cough* Klingons; *cough* Trill).
Skin tone and "features" are remarkably similar, as is the overal cranial structure. The ears are different though, I'll give you that.
Then again, it wouldn't be the first time an alien species has been visualized inconsistently on ST (*cough* Klingons; *cough* Trill).
I think the molting and ridges on the Kobali are acutal species features while the ridges and discoloration on the Queens are from the tubes that bore into her skull. Nitpicking, I know.
There was a Kobali refugee who wanted to flee to Voyager. The Kobali reaction was to open fire* and threaten to damage / destroy the ship. So the individual has little rights, because of the "races needs" or so?
Except for the difference of strength and the fact that they stopped firing after forcing the refugee back (the choice was: have Voyager destroyed / damaged in Delta and crewmen killed, or return the refugee), you could very well exchange Kobali with Borg here.
Even worse, the Borg would EITHER kill (unpleasant) OR assimilate you (unpleasant as well). The Kobali would do both. Irreversably, unlike the Borg.
* would Fed really rush to the Kobalis help after the last recorded act between humans and Kobali was exchange of fire?
So yes, I can totally see why some players think of the Kobali as villains. Because they ARE in canon.
There was a Kobali refugee who wanted to flee to Voyager. The Kobali reaction was to open fire* and threaten to damage / destroy the ship. So the individual has little rights, because of the "races needs" or so?
Except for the difference of strength and the fact that they stopped firing after forcing the refugee back (the choice was: have Voyager destroyed / damaged in Delta and crewmen killed, or return the refugee), you could very well exchange Kobali with Borg here.
Even worse, the Borg would EITHER kill (unpleasant) OR assimilate you (unpleasant as well). The Kobali would do both. Irreversably, unlike the Borg.
* would Fed really rush to the Kobalis help after the last recorded act between humans and Kobali was exchange of fire?
So yes, I can totally see why some players think of the Kobali as villains. Because they ARE in canon.
*looks at star trek 6* it seems they would. if they asked nicely.
remember everyone should be a part of the federation and no one can ever leave... thinking about it. it is possible everyone in star trek is a villain.
kobali are still creepy though... I'm kinda annoyed I can't declare them a part of the empire whether they like it or not.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
I do not think in any way they could be doing that a split off between Kobali and the Borg just would not make sense. Even if Cryptic has been known to chose an extreme creative license with STO a lot has to do with paying off actors and other licensing issues. If they were to explain the Borg then the entity Vger has to be brought back because that is the only known explanation for the Borg.
With All Hallows Eve/Day of the Dead and America's obsession with Zombies and Vampires, I can't help but wonder if the Kobali are Cryptic/Perfect World's cheap attempt to cash in on the undead craze.
Zombies in Space. yay. pwe/cryptic has done a good job with them. But, they are still Space Zombies. A 'repurposed' corpse is still a corpse. If the Kobali are smart enough to figure out how to recycle dead people, then how come they aren't smart enough to figure out how to return their race to a more normal form of procreation?
On the bright side, whenever pwe/cryptic decides to make the Kobali a playable race, I think being the Graves Registration guy in the Kobali defense forces would be the bestest job evah!
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......my biggest problem with the way the Kobali are handled from an 'in-universe' perspective is the gigantic hypocritical kabuki-dancing it requires philosophically. The justifications in-game are that we (as Starfleet Officers) must respect the Kobali culture. OK...fine, but what about the cultures of all the other species to whom what the Kobali do is a desecration of their honored dead? Is their culture somehow less important? The Kobali do not ask permission of the families of the deceased (or even of the base species in general), and likely routinely violate many cultures' deeply held beliefs. Seems to me that the Kobali were a poor choice for NPC protagonists simply by virtue of the ethical complications alone.
you all seem to be looking at this in an unfair way. Kobali as a race was faced with an impossible option. To make a retro-virus to turn corpses into Kobali or become extinct. We can all try and take the moral high ground here but what would you do hell what would any species do to stave off extinction? I commend the Kobali for coming up with 1) a virus that can re-write a genetic code, 2) using it on corpses and not living creatures. That second option is really the more scary of ideas over the idea that maybe someone dead souls not gonna get into [Heaven].
Granted I don't like how the Kobali get there corpses they should ask but I can understand how they really cant. But if I knew I was dying I wouldn't mind offering up my dead body to the Kobali...hell I aint using it any more might as well let them have it.
you all seem to be looking at this in an unfair way. Kobali as a race was faced with an impossible option. To make a retro-virus to turn corpses into Kobali or become extinct. We can all try and take the moral high ground here but what would you do hell what would any species do to stave off extinction? I commend the Kobali for coming up with 1) a virus that can re-write a genetic code, 2) using it on corpses and not living creatures. That second option is really the more scary of ideas over the idea that maybe someone dead souls not gonna get into [Heaven].
Granted I don't like how the Kobali get there corpses they should ask but I can understand how they really cant. But if I knew I was dying I wouldn't mind offering up my dead body to the Kobali...hell I aint using it any more might as well let them have it.
Careful. You are now making the mistake of rationalizing(making excuses via ad hoc hypothesizing). You are also dangerously flirting with moral relativism and conflating it with cultural relativism.
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but at least there was a good reason for it during the middle ages - namely, the black plague
a buried corpse may remain plague-ridden, but at least the living can no longer come in contact with it
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I know its getting worse in some paces around the world, There was a bit of a movement for more natural burial I think they called it, which was basically a sheet of fabric and a hole in the ground, no wasteful materials and everything in the hole is supposed to biodegrade relatively fast
But many places don't allow it as they have very strict rules on the burial of human remians, and its not legal to do so, this may be for cultural or religious reasons, or just legislators dragging their heels, I don't know
I'm sure that ensign who retained her memories may have influenced them a lot and have been able to open door for both sides.
My problem is we show up in the delta quadrant and then we are fighting for them. It is too soon. They needed to introduce them and then over time maybe become allies. But to show up and just start fighting for them in an adventure zone seems wrong as all conflict does is allow them more prospective members.
There is still no reason for them to want to end a conflict where some one else fights for them. It is a win win scenario.
Umm, no. Otherwise you wouldn't have ancient burial mounds dotted all over Europe, or evidence of burials as far back as archeology goes. Heck, Islam has *very* strict rules about the burial of the dead (which like many such strictures, probably have a practical grounding in hygiene).
Cultures which don't bury or burn their dead are *very* unusual, the only one I can think of is the Zoroastrians...
You are quite right in that burial mounds are common. Some places in the US have them too. But... not all of the people in those regions used them, and the burials were often pretty simple.
Many native American groups had/have the equivalent of cemeteries, but they didn't actually bury the dead in them.
One of the most common ancient practices was a variation of the family crypt idea. Some of them were caves, others man-made structures. These did not have coffins in them and the bodies were often laid on the floor to decompose. Afterwards the bones would be pushed into a corner. Some famous examples of this approach are the catacombs under Paris and Rome.
Anyways when I said "modern concept of a "proper burial"" I was specifically referring to the modern practice of burying preserved corpses in coffins. Most of the ancient practices didn't leave such long lasting traces behind.
Granted there have been several notable exceptions, but most of the well preserved corpses from antiquity are accidentally preserved.
The Egyptians are the most famous exception, but the Egyptians are also known for a practice where the people who maintained a tomb lived inside it. and this wasn't the sort of burial that involved mummification.
One idea that was seemingly used only once, was making an air-tight coffin and filling it with liquid mercury... this was done by the ancient Chinese, and actually preserved the body so well that a proper autopsy was possible.
Anyways, my basic point was about elaborate burial ceremonies, not burial ceremonies in general. More specifically, the idea of making a permanent monument to the dead.
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Ah, yes. Xin Zhui, the Lady of Dai, buried at Mawangdui. Actually, it didn't happen just once. Apparently, they found at least two more buried using the same embalming fluid, but the tombs were nowhere near as elaborate as hers, one of which was buried in Shanghai and was uncovered when they were starting to lay the foundation for a skyscraper! There was a very interesting National Geograhpic Channel special on the three "eternal" mummies.
It was seen several times in Star Trek, the "space burial"; first with Spock, then with Jadzia, and Janeway in "Coda" (though that was merely a hallucination). Arguably, the torpedo sarcophigas was suppose to either incinerate during atmospheric re-entry (stellar or planetary).
I do agree with the previous poster that it makes no sense for the Alpha Quadrant Alliance to be working alongside the Kobali so soon. There needs to be a build up much as there was for the Republic allying with the two major powers.
Let's just put it this way.
We are not carrying them through the Kobali warzone. All those little soldiers aren't just sitting back and sipping lemonade while the great alliance warriors walk over the Vaadwuar. They're still doing most of the work, and by far taking the heaviest losses. A few FED/KDF/ROM twits wandering around the place doesn't make their war suddenly a picnic. It just means they aren't loosing as badly.
And as for an introduction, the Vaadwuar's campaign against other DQ species is well established by the point you get to Kobali prime and so is the alliance's position towards that [its in fact part of the main plot arc]. Its not an abrupt transition.
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It'll at least give me a good laugh, the LoR Dtan "story" was horrid, but funny.
You'll be disappointed. The dialog, plot, and voice acting are all quite good even on more general video game standards (hell of a lot better IMO than major AAA releases of late, particularly the last one). The various races are well presented, your role well defined and implemented, the plot well structured and paced, and the game makes great use of the various types of missions to do so.
Now I'm sure that you can wish hard enough to still have a laugh or two but do try to take a more objective approach to the upcoming campaign. It can be quite impressive.
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If there are anything to do with the kazon..ugh I hope not. When i rewatch voyager, I skip the episodes with kazon. They're just uglier versions of cardasians and not as interesting.
I can't say anything without spoiling. Just try to keep an open mind.
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This, and because...
...Monty Python, Recycle Rex, Victor Frankenstein, and Rob Zombie.
To me they are no better than the Vidians going around harvesting organs to keep alive, the Borg who forces you to join them, and the Elachi who transformed a living person into their own.
However I would give the story a chance. Who knows after 32 years, perhaps they found a new way to keep their species going? Or wanting help from the Federation/KDF/Romulan alliance to over come what plight that restricts their reproductions. Even at one point the Vidians and Malon was thinking about changing their ways if given the moment. It kinda worked for the Hirogen as well.
Granted the plight they have. You would be surprised what people do in extreme conditions in order to survive. So in a way I don't blame them for their actions. They are after survival.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Interesting thought. Especially since canon Borg Queens have always been Kobali so far. I know they never stated that specifically, but they do look like Kobali.
Perhapse in "soft" canon. Has the Kobali been described as species 125? That was the species of Susanna Thompson's Queen. I couldn't tell you if that was also the case for Alice Kruge's Queen.
As far as I am concerned, each one was actually a different assimilated person, while the "Queen" personality itself is merely the "program" or "operating system" that manifests as the "individual" voice. Almost like the Go'auld from Stargate. However, unlike the "snake in the head" parasite, the "program" is not physical and merely downloads into a new Queen when the current one is destroyed. That makes her MUCH harder to kill, and more akin to an idea.
How do you kill an idea? How do you delete or kill a program that has backup copies of istelf in every hardrive and server? When thinking in that regard, it makes the Borg more akin to the ant colony as originally envisioned rather than a beehive as it has become.
Sorry I went off on a tangent. The thoughts just started racing. Getting back to the issue you originally started, I would not be in the least bit surprised if the Borg got its revival technology form the Kobali, a more primative verison to be sure, but it would make perfect sense.
They dont look like Kobali, they look like reanimated corpses, just like the diusgusting Kobali do. I bet they smell terrible
If it were up to me, I would wipe them all out. I am already Fleet Admiral, in an expansion or two I should make Emperor. Then we shall have peace.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050102221424/memoryalpha/en/images/9/90/Jhet-leya.jpg
Susanna Thompson Queen:
http://www.startrek-voyager.nl/borg/queen4.jpg
Alice Krige Queen:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2YtnZq8Kgf4/UGoPQrXFvJI/AAAAAAAABWs/7wcghABth3c/s1600/Borg-Queen%2BAlice%2BKrige.png
Skin tone and "features" are remarkably similar, as is the overal cranial structure. The ears are different though, I'll give you that.
Then again, it wouldn't be the first time an alien species has been visualized inconsistently on ST (*cough* Klingons; *cough* Trill).
I think the molting and ridges on the Kobali are acutal species features while the ridges and discoloration on the Queens are from the tubes that bore into her skull. Nitpicking, I know.
There was a Kobali refugee who wanted to flee to Voyager. The Kobali reaction was to open fire* and threaten to damage / destroy the ship. So the individual has little rights, because of the "races needs" or so?
Except for the difference of strength and the fact that they stopped firing after forcing the refugee back (the choice was: have Voyager destroyed / damaged in Delta and crewmen killed, or return the refugee), you could very well exchange Kobali with Borg here.
Even worse, the Borg would EITHER kill (unpleasant) OR assimilate you (unpleasant as well). The Kobali would do both. Irreversably, unlike the Borg.
* would Fed really rush to the Kobalis help after the last recorded act between humans and Kobali was exchange of fire?
So yes, I can totally see why some players think of the Kobali as villains. Because they ARE in canon.
*looks at star trek 6* it seems they would. if they asked nicely.
remember everyone should be a part of the federation and no one can ever leave... thinking about it. it is possible everyone in star trek is a villain.
kobali are still creepy though... I'm kinda annoyed I can't declare them a part of the empire whether they like it or not.
if I stop posting it doesn't make you right it. just means I don't have enough rum to continue interacting with you.
On the bright side, whenever pwe/cryptic decides to make the Kobali a playable race, I think being the Graves Registration guy in the Kobali defense forces would be the bestest job evah!
Granted I don't like how the Kobali get there corpses they should ask but I can understand how they really cant. But if I knew I was dying I wouldn't mind offering up my dead body to the Kobali...hell I aint using it any more might as well let them have it.
Careful. You are now making the mistake of rationalizing(making excuses via ad hoc hypothesizing). You are also dangerously flirting with moral relativism and conflating it with cultural relativism.