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Kill the Moon (spoilers) Dr. Who

deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
edited October 2014 in Ten Forward
Kill the Moon,

Thoughts?

I thought Clara was being a child and I agreed with the Doctor. It was a decision that Humanity had to make, not the doctor.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    It was absolute pants, and while Doctor Who generally obeys OUR laws of physics and science despite the sci-fi stuff, this episode tossed reason and logic out the window.

    Clara was overemotional at the end, Capaldi was visibly straining at the sheer stupidity of his lines as he explained the situation, the "turn your lights off" bit sort of screwed over Africa and the other side of Earth, and the corridor scene with the random explosion was idiotic.

    Plus the "new Moon" bit was such a piece of flaming idiocy that I just...

    Does not compute.

    So yeah. Utter pants.
  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    yeah I was wondering "um, where did the extra 1.3 billion tonnage come from?"

    Then a new moon that size? Where did it come from? The thing was too small to already lay it.

    Nuke the moon? I was confused why that was a solution. Nuke it while it was breaking up? Um?... 100 nukes isn't going to do anything...



    there was no science, you are absolutely correct.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,550 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    We can all hate the science of the episode as much as we want, but it does raise a very important issue. The Doctor was right in not being involved with the decision about humanity's path. Humanity should determine humanity's path not some alien. Even if humanity is just one person and goes against the rest of humanity.

    Personally, I would think that more of us would take the risk to let the creature live, but I can understand why they shut off the lights. Survival forces us to focus on the present rather than let us have the freedom to look to the future. So humanity would end up being more callous if we had to survive the problems they did. Even with all our problems, our world is far better than that future which is something I don't want to see in my life.
  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Just got done watching it off my DVR, and I found the ep smugly condescending and had me wanting Clara to slap the Doctor. Its supposed to try and make people feel bad about playing it safe rather than taking a chance, but it was an absolutely ridiculous chance. Even if the moon was an egg, what happens when a piece of eggshell the size of Brazil slams into the Earth? (Sure is convenient the shell just magically disappeared.) The whole premise and Doctor's speech on the beach was entirely dependent on deliberate emotional manipulation and discarding the often unpleasant logic of choice and consequence. The Beast Below did it a whole lot better and without lecturing the audience. Maybe they ought to turn that concept on itself sometime, have the Doctor push his companion to 'do the right then,' and then live with the consequences as billions die because of it. Its too easy to be self-righteous when everything conveniently works out.

    And thats before we even get into the obnoxious brat. Or the violation of so many laws of physics that, even by the very-flexible standards of Doctor Who, were just ridiculous.
  • wildthyme467989wildthyme467989 Member Posts: 1,249 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    yeah I was wondering "um, where did the extra 1.3 billion tonnage come from?"

    Then a new moon that size? Where did it come from? The thing was too small to already lay it.

    Nuke the moon? I was confused why that was a solution. Nuke it while it was breaking up? Um?... 100 nukes isn't going to do anything...



    there was no science, you are absolutely correct.

    Surely the science was that as something grows, it's mass increases, and as a new form of alien life, how would anyone know what size eggs it can lay. As for nuking the moon, it seems to be humanity's default setting in this show to destroy what it doesn't understand or is afraid of. As for 100 nukes, don't forget the nukes from the series finale of series 4, 30 of them to wipe out all life on Earth.
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Surely the science was that as something grows, it's mass increases, and as a new form of alien life, how would anyone know what size eggs it can lay. As for nuking the moon, it seems to be humanity's default setting in this show to destroy what it doesn't understand or is afraid of. As for 100 nukes, don't forget the nukes from the series finale of series 4, 30 of them to wipe out all life on Earth.

    But where did that additional mass come from???????????

    Who cares about the nukes, the US and Russia each have a few hundred lying around in various places. The problem is the blatant violations of the laws of physics on repeated occasions, the entire premise is based on faulty physics, and the random explosion in the corridor scene was downright moronic.
  • lilchibiclarililchibiclari Member Posts: 1,193 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    yeah I was wondering "um, where did the extra 1.3 billion tonnage come from?"

    Especially since 1,300,000,000 tonnes is literally only 1/60,000,000,000 of the Moon's normal mass--that small of a change wouldn't even be detectable without precision instruments. Though if it's the "long scale" billion, then that's still one part out of sixty million.
  • wildthyme467989wildthyme467989 Member Posts: 1,249 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    worffan101 wrote: »
    But where did that additional mass come from

    That would be a MASSIVE ALIEN LIFE FORM growing inside the moon (capitalised to help you understand)
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    That would be a MASSIVE ALIEN LIFE FORM growing inside the moon (capitalised to help you understand)

    But it had to come from somewhere.

    The alien in the moon is irrelevant. Where did the extra weight (which, though vast, is nowhere near enough to cause the effects it did) come from?

    Nothing can make mass from nothing. The alien had to be getting nutrition from something; if the nutrition was internal, which it must have been since that was an egg, not a freaking placenta, the mass of the moon WOULD NOT HAVE CHANGED.

    Basically the entire episode was without science.
  • bazagbazag Member Posts: 375 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    That would be a MASSIVE ALIEN LIFE FORM growing inside the moon (capitalised to help you understand)

    Yes, that is the in-universe explanation.

    However there are still some issues with what happened from a realism point of view.

    Eggs don't grow in mass because the egg contains all nutrients that the embryo needs to grow into a hatching. The egg shell prevents any new nutrients or mass being added.

    For mass to be added there needs to be new mass coming from somewhere out of the moon otherwise it is just re-arranging of mass that is already located in the moon.

    I really enjoyed the episode but from a physics point of view they did get this wrong.
  • wildthyme467989wildthyme467989 Member Posts: 1,249 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    worffan101 wrote: »
    But it had to come from somewhere.

    The alien in the moon is irrelevant. Where did the extra weight (which, though vast, is nowhere near enough to cause the effects it did) come from?

    Nothing can make mass from nothing. The alien had to be getting nutrition from something; if the nutrition was internal, which it must have been since that was an egg, not a freaking placenta, the mass of the moon WOULD NOT HAVE CHANGED.

    Basically the entire episode was without science.

    Look, it's SIMPLE. It's ALIEN (Key word there) LIFE. Life that is ALIEN to us. We know nothing about it's life cycle or how it grows.

    Science fiction DOESN'T ALWAYS HAVE TO GIVE SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATIONS for anything, that makes it far too restricting in my eyes, I like those things that are unexplainable, it makes science FICTION far more entertaining
  • vincarravincarra Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    For mass to be added there needs to be new mass coming from somewhere
    True and it hatched and immediately laid a new egg/moon. Robin Hood was bad enough but this. they have managed to ruin the Doctors reputation with this Series and this so called Doctor.
  • wildthyme467989wildthyme467989 Member Posts: 1,249 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    worffan101 wrote: »
    It was absolute pants, and while Doctor Who generally obeys OUR laws of physics and science despite the sci-fi stuff, this episode tossed reason and logic out the window.

    Clara was overemotional at the end, Capaldi was visibly straining at the sheer stupidity of his lines as he explained the situation, the "turn your lights off" bit sort of screwed over Africa and the other side of Earth, and the corridor scene with the random explosion was idiotic.

    Plus the "new Moon" bit was such a piece of flaming idiocy that I just...

    Does not compute.

    So yeah. Utter pants.

    Doctor Who DOESN'T obey our laws of physics all the time, it frees itself from them to make preposterous tales like this one, they're the far more entertaining to those who can ignore the science and wrap their minds around them.

    I've been whole episodes set in physics bending/breaking locations. The universe of Anti-Time and the Realm of the Elder Gods are great examples of that, those kinds of episodes are what make Doctor Who stand out from all the other Sci-Fi shows I've watched
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Doctor Who DOESN'T obey our laws of physics all the time, it frees itself from them to make preposterous tales like this one, they're the far more entertaining to those who can ignore the science and wrap their minds around them.

    I've been whole episodes set in physics bending/breaking locations. The universe of Anti-Time and the Realm of the Elder Gods are great examples of that, those kinds of episodes are what make Doctor Who stand out from all the other Sci-Fi shows I've watched

    Yeah, but OUR physics always works normally without a specific explanation to the contrary.

    Elder gods and anti-time and such are outside of our current physical laws, sure, but basic Newtonian mechanics always applies on Doctor Who unless explicitly stated otherwise.

    The problem with this episode is that it violates basic Newtonian mechanics WITHOUT a satisfactory explanation.
  • wildthyme467989wildthyme467989 Member Posts: 1,249 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    worffan101 wrote: »
    Yeah, but OUR physics always works normally without a specific explanation to the contrary.

    Elder gods and anti-time and such are outside of our current physical laws, sure, but basic Newtonian mechanics always applies on Doctor Who unless explicitly stated otherwise.

    The problem with this episode is that it violates basic Newtonian mechanics WITHOUT a satisfactory explanation.

    Our physics are IRRELEVANT to Doctor Who, why does there always have to be a satisfactory explanation? I find Dana Scully's annoying in the extreme, they take the fun out of Sci-Fi
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Our physics are IRRELEVANT to Doctor Who, why does there always have to be a satisfactory explanation? I find Dana Scully's annoying in the extreme, they take the fun out of Sci-Fi

    Pffffffffffft.

    So you think Sci-fi should be a fantasy world where there are no consistent rules and everything that happens should happen because PLOT??? And author shouldn't have to actually work to justify their plotlines?

    Go watch Voyager, then, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

    But Doctor Who has a history of basic physics being followed. Look at the Adipose episode, just off the top of my head. The big villain of that episode is killed by basic physics (or more accurately the application of those physics to her body).

    Anyway, it's 3 AM here and I'm beat. Night, all.
  • moonshadowdarkmoonshadowdark Member Posts: 1,899 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    worffan101 wrote: »

    So you think Sci-fi should be a fantasy world where there are no consistent rules and everything that happens should happen because PLOT??? And author shouldn't have to actually work to justify their plotlines?

    Pretty much, yeah. If you can believe that humans can actually come together in peace and brotherhood and invent the greatest intergalactic Federation of planets, explore the vast void that is the universe all in the name of self improvement and intellectual satisfaction...

    I think the Moon being pregnant is in the realm of possibility.

    Science fiction was created to get AWAY from reality. Reality sucks.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,550 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    There is hard science fiction which tries to be realistic, but Star Trek, Star Wars, and Doctor Who have never been realistic.
  • neoakiraiineoakiraii Member Posts: 7,468 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    worffan101 wrote: »
    Pffffffffffft.

    So you think Sci-fi should be a fantasy world where there are no consistent rules and everything that happens should happen because PLOT??? And author shouldn't have to actually work to justify their plotlines?

    Go watch Voyager, then, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

    But Doctor Who has a history of basic physics being followed. Look at the Adipose episode, just off the top of my head. The big villain of that episode is killed by basic physics (or more accurately the application of those physics to her body).

    Anyway, it's 3 AM here and I'm beat. Night, all.

    Not fantasy, fiction, it's in the name, Fiction
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  • grylakgrylak Member Posts: 1,588 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Remember that episode where the Carrions manipulated Shaekspeare? They had people recite words to open an interdimensional portal. They controlled people by only using their words. They hit a doll of the Doctor wrapped with a piece of his hair and one of his hearts stopped. They were defeated by saying words.

    Or that alien who drank people's salt out of them with a straw in their neck?

    Or using paintings as stasis chambers?

    Or had the entire time vortex sucked into someone's head and made them a god? How do you suck a time vortex into someone's head?

    Or ressurect The Master with some crazy potions that gave him lightning powers?

    NONE of it applies to our laws of physics. Because Doctor Who is not always a realistic show. Sometimes, it takes a sidestep into crazy places.


    I'm not saying the episode was perfect. Only half the earth got to vote. But I did enjoy how arrogant this Doctor is becoming. He actually made a really good point, just not in the best way. Humanity does need to choose our future. We can't let some alien decide our fate for us always. Usually the Doctor is protecting us from exterior threat, something that is actually trying to harm us. This was not such an incident. This was a natural progression of the timeline, and something he had no business interfering in. It was Bowie Base One all over again. Only this time, he made the right decision and let the timeline play out properly. I thought Clara was fully justified at having a go at him for putting her in a situation like that just because.



    And like the Doctor said: A hatched egg isn't a bomb. It doesn't destroy the nest. And the whole time, the moon was rather crumbly and dusty whenever there was a shift, so it made sense to me. Though I was thinking at the time, they need The Iron Man. Though I was left wondering how it laid an egg the size of the original so soon after hatching, but eh, "Life will find a way."
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited October 2014
    Problems

    1) The second Moon, the creature (that I think is a star whale) would have to have the same properties as the first (mass etc.) so where did it come from.

    2) The TARDIS can tow planets (Journeys End), why not just move the Moon into orbit of Jupiter until it hatches and then tow Io, or Triton into orbit.

    3) The Spiders being singled celled organisms is stupid, where are the glands required to make web?

    3) The corridor explosion was only there for the trailers.

    4) Times zones people, it is never night all over the Earth at one time, you made the same mistake in The End of Time.

    5) Spiders eh? Might have been a good time to remember that the Earth is created around a Racnos spaceship, those spider things from series 2.

    6) No Doctor, it's not unique, reason is, it's in a bloody egg, ergo it was laid by something.

    7) In real life the Doctor wouldn't have had time to finish talking about the choice, any human up there would have hit the detonate button before he could finish, no one in the world would ever weigh one life against 7 billion.

    Still a decent episode, this series has been consistently okay, each episode had had the potential to be fantastic but let down by a few tiny mistakes.

    Still 12 is really becoming what 6 would have been if he had had some decent stories.
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
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  • wildthyme467989wildthyme467989 Member Posts: 1,249 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    starkaos wrote: »
    There is hard science fiction which tries to be realistic, but Star Trek, Star Wars, and Doctor Who have never been realistic.

    Star Trek certainly tries to be, and certain products we have today came from Star Trek and we're about to get more as well if the news stories are accurate
  • grylakgrylak Member Posts: 1,588 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    neoakiraii wrote: »
    2) The TARDIS can tow planets (Journeys End), why not just move the Moon into orbit of Jupiter until it hatches and then tow Io, or Triton into orbit.


    The only reason the TARDIS could do that was because they hooked the Cardiff Rift around the TARDIS, and uploaded some codes into the TARDIS console so it could then configure itself properly. Or some such computery thing.


    Point is, the TARDIS could only tow the Earth, no other planet, and then it requires outside assistance to get ready. Which it would never be able to do again because the Rift controls were destroyed along with the Cardiff branch of Torchwood in Miracle Day.
    *******************************************

    A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
  • talaranjatalaranja Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    This whole series does the Dr. Who Series no good.

    There were so many logic breaches, and things that did interfere with previous episodes (like the "good dalek, where the daleks (which always were just beings in a kind of tank) was made into a cyborg like thing (Watch episode 2 (4-8) of the really first season for that - they take out the dalek, and one of them uses the tank like hull of the dalek).

    And thats really bad, because until season 8/doctor 12 dr. who has always had an (in itself closed) logic, and did not defy any law of nature, unless there was a reason. Dr. Who isnt that kind of sci-fi where ANYTHING can happen magically.

    Thats real bad, because i think capalid is the best acting actor for the doctor - but the stories of season 8...pffft. ruin the whole show.
  • grylakgrylak Member Posts: 1,588 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    To be fair, the Dalek thing you mentioned isn't new for Capaldi. They've been that way since the show first came back in 2005. The first episode with a Dalek in new run featured it opening it's casing at the end. So they are still creatures contained within a tank type device, just the size of the creature has changed. Which could be forgivable, since they are mutations, so one could reason they simply mutated some more since that very first appearance.
    *******************************************

    A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
  • angelus214angelus214 Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    it could have been using photosynthesis.

    The "egg shell" could of acted like chlorophil and the alien could of feed off the complex sugars to grow.

    and before anyone says chlorophil is green.... yeah earth chlorophil is alien chlorophil might not be.
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    Executive Officer of Alpha Squadron
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited October 2014
    talaranja wrote: »
    This whole series does the Dr. Who Series no good.

    There were so many logic breaches, and things that did interfere with previous episodes (like the "good dalek, where the daleks (which always were just beings in a kind of tank) was made into a cyborg like thing (Watch episode 2 (4-8) of the really first season for that - they take out the dalek, and one of them uses the tank like hull of the dalek).

    And thats really bad, because until season 8/doctor 12 dr. who has always had an (in itself closed) logic, and did not defy any law of nature, unless there was a reason. Dr. Who isnt that kind of sci-fi where ANYTHING can happen magically.

    Thats real bad, because i think capalid is the best acting actor for the doctor - but the stories of season 8...pffft. ruin the whole show.

    The Daleks have always been Cyborgs, the fact that Ian could drive around in one was a peculiarity of the first series, after that the mutant has always been bonded to the shell. As for good Daleks, that is the whole plot The Evil of the Daleks.

    Doctor Who is famous for interfering with it's own continuity, how many ways has Atlantis sunk again? How many different Loch Ness Monsters are they, How did the Cybermen originate?

    As for the contradictions of science, go watch The Twin Dilemma, an enormous misunderstanding of gravity, one that would not be made by an 11 year old.

    As for Series 8 being the worse, that's subjective, series 23, 19, 1 and 2 (New Series) where shocking for stories.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • leethorogoodleethorogood Member Posts: 302 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    grylak wrote: »
    Which it would never be able to do again because the Rift controls were destroyed along with the Cardiff branch of Torchwood in Miracle Day.
    I thought the hub was already destroyed/gone by Miracle Day, didn't it get blown up by the bomb planted inside Jack during the Children of Earth event? :confused:

    On another note, the Daleks, at least some of them had become cyborgs by the Sylvester McCoy serial Remembrance of the Daleks if not by the Colin Baker Serial Revelation of the Daleks. :cool:
  • grylakgrylak Member Posts: 1,588 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    I thought the hub was already destroyed/gone by Miracle Day, didn't it get blown up by the bomb planted inside Jack during the Children of Earth event? :confused:

    On another note, the Daleks, at least some of them had become cyborgs by the Sylvester McCoy serial Remembrance of the Daleks if not by the Colin Baker Serial Revelation of the Daleks. :cool:


    Oh, was it Children of Earth? The bomb in Jack was the event I was referring to, but I haven't watched either of those since they first aired. My mistake.
    *******************************************

    A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
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