What I want is content that challenges the pilot, not the gear.
Flying with 50%+ kinetic and energy resist without spending a single engineering slot on an armor console seems to contradict wanting a challenge to the pilot.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
You're playing the wrong game by the wrong developer then. Cryptic games simply don't have the AI to be a challenging enough encounter.
AI is overstated and overused as an excuse imo.
To expect a pre-programmed "and or if" set of instructions to outsmart a sentient player is ridiculous. The AI is only 1 piece of the puzzle that creates overall difficulty.
Portal/Portal 2 are great examples. There is no 'AI' that you ever go up against, but there's still a very adequate difficulty in each new challenge you approach as you progress through levels.
And the level progression takes into account what you should have learned in the earlier levels.
Don't equate making a quick dollar to making a great game. It's obvious where priorities lie.
You're playing the wrong game by the wrong developer then. Cryptic games simply don't have the AI to be a challenging enough encounter. "Challenge" in Crpytic terms = More HP + More Spike Damage + 1 Shot Gimmicks + Ha Ha I'm immune to you abilities. You're not going to find an intelligent AI that can analyze what you're doing and counter it in any Cryptic game.
Even the stuff they're adding now is just a rehash of what they had in CoH.
Multilayered scripts...predictable? Yes. Apparently hard to the majority of all mmo players? Your damn right.
I have leaving issues. I hate leaving an mmo to go to another one because I invest so much time to learning so much. Cutting the cord is a pain to do....actually it isn't the cutting of the cord but reattaching to another game.
I can always hope more crystalline catastrophe events/engagements are coming with progressively more difficult mechanics...at least I have thay
Of course, if you were to follow logic, we would never get to respawn at all. Our ship didn't just get damaged, it blew up with a full warp core breach. I've always said that Cryptic should have given us a version of Q laughing at us about having to save our pathetic butts once again when we die; at least that would explain how we came back from a full on explosion of the whole ship. But this is a game and we have no reason to make things that aren't fun. We have quite enough in the game that is designed to be more like work than play; adding a "you're dead and just get to watch people play for the next half hour" mechanic is the opposite of good gameplay.
I played Guild Wars 1 for about 5 years. In that game, you can resurrect, but if the whole party wipes you're done and have to start over. But even that lighter version of no respawn was not really fun. Especially if you were in a pug, failing the mission led to lots of finger pointing and recriminations. Of course it also meant you wasted up to an hour of your time, to do the exact thing over again before you can progress in the storyline.
Fortunately, I think it's really unlikely that such a mechanic would be put in place. I wouldn't play it if it were. Cryptic isn't in the business of making changes that only will be seen by a smaller percentage of players. Examples to prove this point include pvp and the Klingons. It makes sense; your resources are not infinite and are better put toward things to improve the game for a large percentage of players rather than a small one.
In the end, I think a lot of this arguing for super-hard content is more about measuring e-peens and putting oneself above and looking down on others than on just having harder stuff to do.
PWE will always be willing to give us more powerful stuff if we are willing to pay cash for them. PvP in their games always devolves to the people who spend the most cash being able to wipe the floor with those who don't so only the richest players actually pvp. That power creep is part of the business model. So no matter how hard you make content, eventually you will be able to buy stuff that makes that content trivial.
So, in short, not fun, not worth the effort to code it since few would play it, and wouldn't work for long even if done.
I used to be Shakkar with thousands of posts. My very identity was stolen from me so now I am originalshakkar, the original.
If players had no choice but to 'stay dead' and look at their own smoldering wreckage, waiting for another player to swoop around and 'revive' them with engineering teams, I would completely approve of that.
Like Hive Ground STF, if you die, you can either be revived by someone else, or sit in the penalty box until someone unlocks the transporter or everyone is dead. If everyone is dead, the mission starts all over again. This makes sense, it has appropriate checks and balances.
But instead, we pander to the individuals for which that is too complicated an idea or just plain takes too long.
With all the various surprise one shots out there no respawn is just asking for un-completable content, it's bad enough that HSE can take hours and a great many respawns, even with a team of good players (not necessarily a good team) at least that team has a chance to complete it.
Portal/Portal 2 are great examples. There is no 'AI' that you ever go up against, but there's still a very adequate difficulty in each new challenge you approach as you progress through levels.
The game is not based around player vs AI interaction. My hair is short, your argument is invalid.
STO combat is based on interaction against the AI (pve, obviously). The limited AI we have, which is artificially hidden with the use of OP abilities (borg OSK torp, Tholian weapons disabling, Undines snot bubbles and various extremely annoying CCs, Voth decoy and CCs....) doesn't offer any challenges. Frustration ? Yes, plenty of it. Difficulty ? Not so much.
For example, the Malon we have on tribble use reverse shield polarity as soon as they start fighting. Before you even start shooting.
Usually that's the way opponents fight in STO, they throw everything they have as soon as they can. Meaning a EPTE opponent will use this ability right away to escape, while the fight is barely started and they doesn't need to escape (yet). Then, they'll stand somewhere, and wait for the player to destroy them, since they doesn't have the ability anymore (which makes them incredibly annoying). A player (that is not dumb as a rock) will use this ability to escape a fight he is loosing for example, so he can heal and come back later (or just survive a little longer), and not escape right away.
I would love a better AI instead of OP skill that will frustrate the player. Being killed by an invisible torp is frustration. Being stuck in a 10km wide AOE is frustrating, especially when your anti CC skills are already in CD thanks to heavy spam from the enemy. It's not difficult, I don't think I've ever been killed by tholians or undines, it's just frustrating. There is an excellent extra credits video about difficulty vs frustration, I'm just too lazy to link it.
Saying the AI is poorly constructed vs saying the AI is the epitome of difficulty are different things.
An AI protocol can be poorly structured and still be effective depending on how it is utilized in a given situation.
Bullet Bill's are extremely predictable and easy to create, but they can still kill me if I'm not attentive.
My example was only to reiterate that level design and objectives have more to do with difficulty than a patrolling turret that can only fire in one direction.
This is one of those things that everyone says they want, until their ship goes boom. This is one of those things that players think they can handle, until your entire team fails because one player went boom.
Then the TRIBBLE storm comes down on that player. Or perhaps it was not that player's fault, but another team member did not do what he should have done and caused the destruction of his teammate. Everyone gets upset. Everyone gets mad. Every gets frustrated. :eek:
So... while this idea might be kind of fun, it certainly seems to be a disaster in the making. I have yet to meet a group of players perfectly fine with failure. The occasional player, yes. But in groups (even in premade ones), I simply do not think most of you have the maturity required to fail and still have fun.
i perfer the "easy" missions but I am already forced to do elites because of the better loot .
Make the loot exactly the same on all skill modes then sure increase the difficulty by a factor of 10 and no repawn becase i will never have to deal with them again.
Yeah because nothing says elite like some idiot who just hit 60 and thinks because they can queue for it they should queue for it and gets blown up in the first few minutes and leaves the team down 1 will work so great! :rolleyes:
again I WANT NO RESPAWN in the new elite mission...
Dumb.
Cryptic is trying to fill mission queues. Why introduce something in which only a handful of people will play? Cryptic removed the daily events, for some of them were being ignored. We already have empty missions queues.
Cryptic is trying to fill mission queues. Why introduce something in which only a handful of people will play? Cryptic removed the daily events, for some of them were being ignored. We already have empty missions queues.
Again, dumb.
you can ofc think whatever you please, but i for one am sick an tired of smashing through elite stfs and all that with no problem whatsoever at all and since its most likely the last time for a long while where they add another difficulty setting it should compensate in advance for all the power creep coming..
not everyone enjoys playing stuff without challange
since there are 3 settings there is no reason whatsoever to make the last one easily accessable
it should be hard and maybe even almost unbeatable at least for the near future and at some point it will be as easy as elite now but hopefully thats very far away
no respawn is just a very good way to make ppl build more towards survival and less about all dps
/snip/...not everyone enjoys playing stuff without challange
since there are 3 settings there is no reason whatsoever to make the last one easily accessable
it should be hard and maybe even almost unbeatable at least for the near future and at some point it will be as easy as elite now but hopefully thats very far away
no respawn is just a very good way to make ppl build more towards survival and less about all dps
if you cant hack it dont play it i'd say
What you've just done is equivocate a rejection of your solution with a rejection of challenge.
I'm sure there are plenty of the respondents in this thread would wish a great challenge in STO---I'm one of them!
You've identified a legitimate complaint, but your solution is not appropriate to the problem, and it is a bad solution.
I reject your solution, but I share your concern about challenges in the game.
Comments
This is just TRIBBLE logic. There is a novelty to hamstring myself and teammates. But that's all it is, a novelty.
I'd rather use the gear that I've put the time and effort into earning, then fly stuff I was giving at the beginning of the game.
What I want is content that challenges the pilot, not the gear.
Gear always plays a factor but I want it that if you can't get the mechanics down, your going to die regardless
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Flying with 50%+ kinetic and energy resist without spending a single engineering slot on an armor console seems to contradict wanting a challenge to the pilot.
Neither of which is the players fault.
Poor design is not a player choice.
AI is overstated and overused as an excuse imo.
To expect a pre-programmed "and or if" set of instructions to outsmart a sentient player is ridiculous. The AI is only 1 piece of the puzzle that creates overall difficulty.
Portal/Portal 2 are great examples. There is no 'AI' that you ever go up against, but there's still a very adequate difficulty in each new challenge you approach as you progress through levels.
And the level progression takes into account what you should have learned in the earlier levels.
Don't equate making a quick dollar to making a great game. It's obvious where priorities lie.
Multilayered scripts...predictable? Yes. Apparently hard to the majority of all mmo players? Your damn right.
I have leaving issues. I hate leaving an mmo to go to another one because I invest so much time to learning so much. Cutting the cord is a pain to do....actually it isn't the cutting of the cord but reattaching to another game.
I can always hope more crystalline catastrophe events/engagements are coming with progressively more difficult mechanics...at least I have thay
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
I played Guild Wars 1 for about 5 years. In that game, you can resurrect, but if the whole party wipes you're done and have to start over. But even that lighter version of no respawn was not really fun. Especially if you were in a pug, failing the mission led to lots of finger pointing and recriminations. Of course it also meant you wasted up to an hour of your time, to do the exact thing over again before you can progress in the storyline.
Fortunately, I think it's really unlikely that such a mechanic would be put in place. I wouldn't play it if it were. Cryptic isn't in the business of making changes that only will be seen by a smaller percentage of players. Examples to prove this point include pvp and the Klingons. It makes sense; your resources are not infinite and are better put toward things to improve the game for a large percentage of players rather than a small one.
In the end, I think a lot of this arguing for super-hard content is more about measuring e-peens and putting oneself above and looking down on others than on just having harder stuff to do.
PWE will always be willing to give us more powerful stuff if we are willing to pay cash for them. PvP in their games always devolves to the people who spend the most cash being able to wipe the floor with those who don't so only the richest players actually pvp. That power creep is part of the business model. So no matter how hard you make content, eventually you will be able to buy stuff that makes that content trivial.
So, in short, not fun, not worth the effort to code it since few would play it, and wouldn't work for long even if done.
Like Hive Ground STF, if you die, you can either be revived by someone else, or sit in the penalty box until someone unlocks the transporter or everyone is dead. If everyone is dead, the mission starts all over again. This makes sense, it has appropriate checks and balances.
But instead, we pander to the individuals for which that is too complicated an idea or just plain takes too long.
STO combat is based on interaction against the AI (pve, obviously). The limited AI we have, which is artificially hidden with the use of OP abilities (borg OSK torp, Tholian weapons disabling, Undines snot bubbles and various extremely annoying CCs, Voth decoy and CCs....) doesn't offer any challenges. Frustration ? Yes, plenty of it. Difficulty ? Not so much.
For example, the Malon we have on tribble use reverse shield polarity as soon as they start fighting. Before you even start shooting.
Usually that's the way opponents fight in STO, they throw everything they have as soon as they can. Meaning a EPTE opponent will use this ability right away to escape, while the fight is barely started and they doesn't need to escape (yet). Then, they'll stand somewhere, and wait for the player to destroy them, since they doesn't have the ability anymore (which makes them incredibly annoying). A player (that is not dumb as a rock) will use this ability to escape a fight he is loosing for example, so he can heal and come back later (or just survive a little longer), and not escape right away.
I would love a better AI instead of OP skill that will frustrate the player. Being killed by an invisible torp is frustration. Being stuck in a 10km wide AOE is frustrating, especially when your anti CC skills are already in CD thanks to heavy spam from the enemy. It's not difficult, I don't think I've ever been killed by tholians or undines, it's just frustrating. There is an excellent extra credits video about difficulty vs frustration, I'm just too lazy to link it.
It is entirely in your own hands, if you die and want perma death, delete the avatar.
If you want no respawn, simply leave and (perhaps) delete the ship that just got blown up.
You may be letting your team mates down, but at least you will be happy in your self.
An AI protocol can be poorly structured and still be effective depending on how it is utilized in a given situation.
Bullet Bill's are extremely predictable and easy to create, but they can still kill me if I'm not attentive.
My example was only to reiterate that level design and objectives have more to do with difficulty than a patrolling turret that can only fire in one direction.
I agree that frustration =/= difficulty.
Then the TRIBBLE storm comes down on that player. Or perhaps it was not that player's fault, but another team member did not do what he should have done and caused the destruction of his teammate. Everyone gets upset. Everyone gets mad. Every gets frustrated. :eek:
So... while this idea might be kind of fun, it certainly seems to be a disaster in the making. I have yet to meet a group of players perfectly fine with failure. The occasional player, yes. But in groups (even in premade ones), I simply do not think most of you have the maturity required to fail and still have fun.
^^ This 1000%.
Ground works this way, so why isn't Space is exactly the same as ground gameplay wise, when they're identical engine wise.
Why is this not the case all over the place?
And I spend a lot of time on the internet, so that's saying something.
Everything is a bad idea when compared to TRIBBLE...Cmon bra
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
http://youtu.be/QTmImiEXRNo?t=1m16s
i perfer the "easy" missions but I am already forced to do elites because of the better loot .
Make the loot exactly the same on all skill modes then sure increase the difficulty by a factor of 10 and no repawn becase i will never have to deal with them again.
Now, do what EVE Online does with ships and gear, and "elite" will truly be for those with the right stuff.
That is just overkill.
Enough of a penalty to make people not want to die...15 second respawn isn't enough...locked out until everyone is out of combat, that's just enough.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
CaptainGeko hinted at it almost a year ago. Would love to hear a follow-up to this from Cryptic.
Cryptic is trying to fill mission queues. Why introduce something in which only a handful of people will play? Cryptic removed the daily events, for some of them were being ignored. We already have empty missions queues.
you can ofc think whatever you please, but i for one am sick an tired of smashing through elite stfs and all that with no problem whatsoever at all and since its most likely the last time for a long while where they add another difficulty setting it should compensate in advance for all the power creep coming..
not everyone enjoys playing stuff without challange
since there are 3 settings there is no reason whatsoever to make the last one easily accessable
it should be hard and maybe even almost unbeatable at least for the near future and at some point it will be as easy as elite now but hopefully thats very far away
no respawn is just a very good way to make ppl build more towards survival and less about all dps
if you cant hack it dont play it i'd say
What you've just done is equivocate a rejection of your solution with a rejection of challenge.
I'm sure there are plenty of the respondents in this thread would wish a great challenge in STO---I'm one of them!
You've identified a legitimate complaint, but your solution is not appropriate to the problem, and it is a bad solution.
I reject your solution, but I share your concern about challenges in the game.
Now that's the right attitude.
I salute you, random forum poster
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree