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[Video] - Star Trek Online Delta Rising News 8-29-2014 - Tier 5-U Upgrade Controversy
thedoctorbluebox
Member Posts: 749 Arc User
Hello everyone, I have my weekly STO Delta Rising news update to share with you today. I go over all the blog topics released on STO website for this week, including the Tier 5-U Upgrade Ship Controversy. The video is long, but covers ALL the latest news. If you wish to skip straight to the controversy, there is a link in the video to do just that. Thanks for watching 
I'm interested what you all think about my Tier 5-U Ship Upgrade comments in the video.
http://youtu.be/pLcD-fwQvRw
I'm interested what you all think about my Tier 5-U Ship Upgrade comments in the video.
http://youtu.be/pLcD-fwQvRw
Brent Justice
JustGaming4US - https://www.youtube.com/user/JustGaming4Us/
Twitter - https://twitter.com/Brent_Justice
Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/brentjustice
JustGaming4US - https://www.youtube.com/user/JustGaming4Us/
Twitter - https://twitter.com/Brent_Justice
Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/brentjustice
Post edited by thedoctorbluebox on
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Comments
We need deets to see if this is truly a scam or something that keeps the ship we have desirable.
I've been a customer/victim! of Cryptic for a few years now. I've been burned a hell of a lot and am completely unwilling to give them the benefit of the doubt.
They should have just got rid of the tier system instead they chose to raise it. They talk about raising cap to combat power creep then give us mk 14 gear and more powerful ships? That doesn't reset anything. Cryptic hasn't made up their minds on cost/direction of a lot of the key issues stuff that should have been taken care of long ago.
I don't play STO to play that flat paper hunk of junk they call the new T6 cruiser, *sorry to those that like it, play it if you like I don't want to.* I wan't to fly my Galaxy class or various other ships and know im not handicapped vs another tier of ships in a large way. We DID NOT need another ship tier, we needed them removed and customizable ship seating/console layouts put in. MMOs are about playing how you like, when you like, they are options options options.
The main complaint is cryptic keeps putting out info but its incomplete and inconsistant. Significantly less then a T6 ship means nothing without knowing the cost of a T6 ship and without knowing what they consider significant. They said 5-10 bucks was the idea, not that it would be in that range, it could be 100 it could be 5k zen.
Problem is we don't know cause they didn't say, AND THEY SHOULD HAVE. This whole thing is silly and could have been avoided by providing the info but they give us junk to work with. They deserve all the backlash and pitchforks they get. This isn't how a professional company should handle these things.
They should have just offered FULL T6 upgrade at a relative cost to a new ship, then people would have the option to keep the ships they love and cryptic wouldn't lose money. They chose the wrong way to deal with the whole T5->T6 mess. They show amazing lack of foresight, they don't know their prices, they dont even know if it will take an item, etc etc what a complete mess.
hayden captain of the uss florida
Funny, your opinion is still an opinion also. Everybody plays for their own goals. If you don't like Tiers, then maybe you should stop playing MMORPGs.
we dont have the full picture yet, none of us can make anything definitive about any opinion including this one.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Ya thats a good way to deal with serious issues. "Don't like it? GTFO.".... great way to keep things changing for the better. Our ships make up half our characters, which is why this core issue was so important.
This is not like a new expansion in WoW, the characters in Wow have their skills tied to them, getting new gear is rather common place. Here in STO 1/2 of our skills are tied to our ships, the base hps/shield mods etc all tied to that ship and its tier.
The best thing they could do is get rid of that, make it where we make our own layouts out of premade parts that they can sell for money. Lets you use the ship you want, the way you want. The whole reason they really needed T6, they ran out of T5 layouts they themselves admitted it was going to happen. They could sell new ship skins, console layouts, boff layouts all kinds of ways to make money without turning it into the sh*tstorm this mess has become.
Power creep reset is a joke, how do you reset power creep by raising the level cap, but then give us more powerful ship/shields/weapons/and skills. Ya dont. If they wanted to smack powercreep down they would have made APB not reduce resists past 0, or make it not stack or both. Part of the reason we can do such huge damage isn't just A2B but the stacking of APB3 to the Nth degree.
Your way of attacking the OPs opinion by stating your opinion as the opinion of STO players. You only know your own opinion and the opinion of others@the time they tell you. STO is what it is, there's now way it'll become the game you want it to be. There is probably another space MMO that lets you build ship the way you want and you might be happier there. Making ships modular@this stage is so silly, Cryptic would be better off making a new MMO from scratch.
1) I didn't attack him.
2) I don't think my opinion is the same as EVERYONE else, just a large portion of the players. As people have stated they want to keep their fav ships thus this conflict and that the tier system is flawed *been discussed for years*.
3) Just because a system design change takes a lot of work doesn't mean you have to start over from scratch. I have seen tons of stuff added to MMOs that the engine was never made for. Starbases are a prime example of a major system added to STO that it wasn't launched with.
4) Telling people if they don't like certain aspects of the game to just leave is a bad idea, the game should evolve towards a better state, part of the process for that is feedback and opinions. He gave his, I gave mine, it was that simple.
I hate seeing people tell others to leave, it makes a smaller community, breeds resentment, loses money for the game, etc etc. And no I do not expect cryptic to suddenly just get rid of tiers now, they made their bed now we must all lay in it. What I did say is they should have gotten rid of it BEFORE doing another tier. Players had suggested the ship leveling with us since launch of the game, they atleast kinda listened to us and made 50-60 level with us.
Just because I found part of his opinion funny does not mean I was mocking him, or calling his opinion invalid. In gathering feedback there is hardly any that are ever invalid.
If you enjoy the nostalgia, or are in love with a certain T5 ship, that is great. Upgrading to a T5-U or T6 ship is optional. It will not be required to own an upgraded ship in order to play the old content, or the new content. So, if you are in love with your T5 ship, you don't have to upgrade. This particular fact seems to be hard for a lot of people to comprehend. Naturally, there has to be a separation between T5 and T6 ships. If you want a T6 ship, go for it. If you don't, stick with T5. It won't be that bad
JustGaming4US - https://www.youtube.com/user/JustGaming4Us/
Twitter - https://twitter.com/Brent_Justice
Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/brentjustice
I'm fine paying a small upgrade cost, I think it's fair. As long as they truly do make the T5-U close to the power of the T6 (I understand why it can't be a full T6) then I'm cool with it.
Honestly, the ship I fly most of the time is the Scimitar and it's frankly so much more powerful then other ships right now that I'll likely just pay the upgrade fee and still out perform T6 ships.
As for my fed guy, if they release a T6 Typhoon I'm all over it. If no Typhoon, then I'll just drop a couple bucks bringing my Fleet Assault Cruiser up to par. I have no doubt I'll easily be able to handle any of the new content in either ship. I'm only going T6 if they release something I just have to have.
Most MMOs wouldn't give you an option to upgrade your old gear, the first random drop would be better than anything you have currently.
The only reason they do give you an option is because they waited so long for level cap increase and we have 200 t5 ships including all the iconic ships from the show.
They just completely undid all that. They will say the diff between T5.9 and T6 is small, but we all know just how often Boff abilities get used etc, 1 extra boff can make a huge diff often times much more then an extra console.
"There needs to be a clear line between T5 and T6.", agreed. "I ask, why did we need a Tier 6 to begin with." If your combating power creep adding more powerful ships/equipment/abilties seems a very strange way to go about it.
Being able to play the ship you want at any point without ill effects is why I said the whole tier system needed scrapped. If all of our ships leveled with us, from 1-60 with customizable boff/layouts you would have happier customers, no T5/6 connie threads, etc etc.
And you would never have T4 cant compete with T5, T5 vs T6. Upgrading system etc. Like I said they made a mess by increasing the tier cap instead of keeping it at T5. The Old Republic got it right on the gear front, buy orange gear wear it lvl1-55 no worries mod it the way you want. Use it on any character if its adaptive.
SWG was a good look at players on the gear front, I knew lots of people who would wear stat-less gear into combat just because it was their characters look. They added the appearance tab and over night you saw everyone wearing diff gear instead of same 20 sets of armor.
Our ships are the same way, atleast they could be. And cryptic could have profited off it big time and increased player satisfaction. ATM Its a rocky mess, but none of us will know for sure how this will all end up. But at current it is not looking good, customer relation wise, atleast no where near as good as it could look.
The next argument is going to be "Oh no, my VR Mark 12 gear is no longer the best thing" There will be Mark 14 gear. Just like a new Tier of ships, this will have to naturally evolve as well. It is the nature of such a game.
It doesn't mean your build will be invalid. If you are having fun with your build, then keep having fun with it. If you want to upgrade, then upgrade. It is all your choice. The game must progress forward, it is an MMORPG.
JustGaming4US - https://www.youtube.com/user/JustGaming4Us/
Twitter - https://twitter.com/Brent_Justice
Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/brentjustice
it would not have bothered me if there was no upgrade option at all.
what is bugging me is that there are some ships that are getting a free upgrade and some that are having to pay.
it seems to me that most if not all of the ships that require a payment are c-store ships.
so here we are we bought c-store ships as they were supposed to be better then free ships, that's what we were paying for after all, now when the free ships get the free upgrade they will be far better then the c-store ships.
fine I will upgrade my free ships and leave my c-store ships as they are and buy a tier 6 but it doesent alter the fact that the ships I paid for to be better then the free ones will never more deliver on that promise.
this is more so annoying since I only a few months ago bought the dyson mega pack, this is a prime example the dyson mega pack ships were each supposed to be better then keeping the free ship, needless to say I discarded the free ship, now I find that after the free upgrade anyone who has the free dyson ship will have a ship that is far superior to mine, as I tend to use all 9 ships on a fancy I would need to upgrade all 9 ships to stay on a par with the free ones, at $5-$10 per ship this works out at $45-$90 total.
tell me where you think that's fair.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Firstly, in response to your video, I'm not so sure that people (like me) who started playing relatively recently are going to jump to tier 6, because they would have just bought tier 5 ships.
I know PWE has to make money, however I wish that they would not try to do it so controversially. :mad:
Secondly, I would like to formally thank you for your awesome play-throughs of STO, which actually brought me into the game, and helped me level up to 50 in a month after the mac client was released. I really enjoy your knowledge and expertise in STO, and I hope that you will continue to make more STO vids in the future. ::):D
thanks,
@aaaict
P.s I think that your idea to do a FED play through without ZEN and benefits would be amazing, as this would be a great help to the huge majority of people just starting to play, who have no access to Z store items.
its not about being powerfull or not.. its adding a twist to the game that is gated to asthetic taste.
this is something that should be shared for all, its a new feature that would shake up the whole game for everyone.. and it is only being released for a select few ugly ships..
I am also unable to give them the benefit of the doubt.. they seem to be pyro maniacs when it comes to burning players..
Are there enough people, who buy everything no matter what, in sto to keep the game running?
I guess we have to hope so for all our sakes because no game elsewise.
The whole issue about T5-U ships costing money? Don't buy one! No one is forcing, or making you buy a T5-U ship. Don't like the fact it costs money for this upgraded ship? Don't buy it, don't spend the money. I certainly will not be, I don't have the money. I am fine and happy keeping my T5 ships just the way they are. I understand my T5 ship can never be a T6 ship, nor should it ever be. I'll have my T5 ships, and I'll have my T6 ships, and I'll be happy, and I won't break the bank.
JustGaming4US - https://www.youtube.com/user/JustGaming4Us/
Twitter - https://twitter.com/Brent_Justice
Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/brentjustice
The problem is right now the top ships are fleet, lobi, and lock box, by comparison cash shop ships are like T4 to those T5 ships, sure we get special skills but usually it's something so sub par it's useless and only by removing useful consoles for those. IF thats not bad enough, now we're told to buy upgrades while those ships get a freebie, to top that off those of us with cash shop ships are still left at the bottom of the scale and even more so with T6
I think you struggle enormously with understanding the difference between making a self contained argument and merely asserting a claim as if it were self evidently true, which leads you instead to resort to talking in constant italics and relying on emphasis to cover up for weak logic which people will find annoying.
Case in point, you claim it's self evident that 6 is not 5. And that is correct, it isn't. But all the way through you emphasise that the community has to understand 6 is not 5 whilst I was saying "Category error. That's a category error" and rolling my eyes. Because the important point is 5 or 6 what? Define your terms. Eggs? Elephants?
No you're talking about Tiers; And a tier is not a model of ship, it's a definition of comparative power, across a range of ships, and is thus independent of the individual ships themselves... A Tier is a set, not a single figure. As you somewhat become aware of when you start stumbling over the definition of a 5U ship next. You declare a 5U ship is a complete new ship, rather than an upgrade, and thus incredible value for money. But it's not, it's a previous model of ship with a power upgrade that falls below a complete Tier of power, and thus doesn't fit into the 6 and above set of ships. You think you're getting a discount on a full ship, where as everyone else understands the cost is for the change to the level of Tier which explains the discount... it doesn't include all of the other qualities of a "ship", like hull shape and bridge style.
So here's the reason why your argument is terrible, in actual logical terms now we've made clear what definitions we should be using.
There is nothing to state a prior ship cannot be Tier 6 because Tiers are levels of power and can be applied to ships, if and as the devs so choose. It's not an inherent limitation as you assume but a design choice. Likewise there is no reason the player cannot pay for the Tier itself, at full price even, if the devs so choose to put that in the store. Or the xU intermediate stage at the lower price if they only want to purchase so much, but not more power. Or even hypothetically, pay to have their own ship nerfed, if they wish. Because 5 will still not be 6, no matter how much the player moves up or down the scale of numbers and perceived value for money.
You state players need to be prepared to pay for Tiers, even though this has been a part of player behaviour since game launch, thus ignoring the actual data of player behaviour in favour of your assumption. The actual Controversy, where emphasis proves to be no substitute for empathy then is people feel they will be forced to pick a limited amount of the new T6 ships to have full access to the new content... such as ship levelling up and extra slots or skills. It's not that they don't understand the concept of paying for something, it's the exact opposite, that they don't have the option to pay for a feature they've do want.
And again, there is no logical reason preventing the devs designing to apply that new content to older ships, and also charging for that feature, should they wish. Just as they did in fact with the prior "Fleet versions of ships" mechanic. So it's a mechanic they not only want, but have already had.
The problem then is actually that Cryptic doesn't understand how it's player base thinks, or what it wants, and would pay for. And your video annoys because it tries to tell us we have to understand we don't want what we think we do. And no, no we don't at all.
Thing is in a lot of other MMOs, gear is just gear, you're a knight with a sword and a shield, now you ahve a different sword and different shield. This game is Star Trek, which on one hand brings in extra people on name alone, but on the other means people have certain expectations. For one thing, they expect the ships from the shows and the movies, not Cryptic's designs which seem more and more detached from classical aesthetics all the time like some generic space game. Those ships are part of this world, part of playing in it. It would be like if they did a Star Wars game and lightsabers were second-rate weapons next to say cortosis vibroblades; part of a Jedi's identity is wrapped up in those specific aesthetics, and yet the game using that name wasn't living up to those aesthetics.
Secondly, unlike simple gear, ships are as much a character as anything else in this game. Over the last 50 years, how many of our protagonists introduced themselves as "I'm Captain James T Kirk or the Federation Starship Enterprise" ? The ship is as much a main character as any one of the actors, far more than just a piece of equipment. Replace the weapons, replace the deflectors and warp cores and consoles, thats all just stat blocks. But the ship, the platform, thats identity, and for many people not something so easily discarded. The real problem with this whole 5u thing is that people are being told that they have to either give up their long-established identity or accept being second-class players. Thats a bitter pill for anyone even marginally sentimental about their ships (and since a lot of people are only in this game because of sentimentality in the first place, that just makes it worse.)
Everyone recognizes the profit motive of resetting the gear race, and while its unwanted, its also logically understandable. Taking part of people's characters away though, thats something else.
Would have been shorter and faster.
The iconic Trek ships - of *all* factions - have not been top end choices for years. Yes, capable players can make them work brilliantly, but no-one's pretending they are a match for some of the cryptic-own designs, let alone lockbox ships.
(NB - I suppose you could argue that most of the lockbox / lobi ships are canon designs, but that doesn't seem to be the issue).
So at T5U vs T6, we essentially have the status quo ante - you can field a characterful ship which is not completely optimal, or you can play the min / max game with an STO-only ship. Apart from PVP, this does not look like it will matter overmuch - and PVP is a law unto itself. I think that those who are saying, "hang power creep - I love my Galaxy / Defiant / B'rel / D'Deridex" have got the right idea and are taking a much healthier attitude. After all, Scotty never stopped loving the NCC-1701 even when it was ready for the breakers' yard.
The people I *do* feel sorry for are those using Lockbox / Lobi ships, each of which represents $200+ of spending by someone. Really can't understand why those don't merit a full T6 upgrade.
His Buissnesscard reads "Troll"... Thats his reasoning.