stop punting this carp here the answer
Although the Federation initially agreed to follow the treaty after the destruction of the Romulan homeworld, in early 2409 Starfleet was authorized to develop and implement cloaking technology on selected ships.
meaning just player ship
Have you read any of the page you quoted that from?
I was referring to the bit you quoted of mine, and what page it was on - that console has already been discussed, and so far it has caused the only agreement in 39 pages.
I was referring to the bit you quoted of mine, and what page it was on - that console has already been discussed, and so far it has caused the only agreement in 39 pages.
How many other people are going to have to show you that your wrong....
The ONLY reason for every fed ship not flying around with cloaks is cryptic or CBS not doing it yet. lore wise its already been stated soo many times that the Treaty is invalid and that in game lore wise feds are researching cloak. So there is nothing stopping the Feds from having it lore wise. RSE war with the federation invalidates the treaty... so just stop arguing your points have been proven wrong over and over and over.. and you keep making stupid arguments side skirting those facts.
You can not use a sub factions ability's or npcs as any justification of anything.
To claim its canon well for one it's canon for this time period and if you want canon well then no carriers for the KDF the only "canon" small attack craft were only ever seen in use by the Federation. In canon Star Trek there is no boost to weapon damage going out of cloak so remove that as well.. we can go on and on about that.
Facts are pretty simple as of the time line right now there is no treaty forbidding cloak research and the Federation is designing ships to use cloak and there own cloak tech. You can stick your head in the sand and mumble "its not fair to the kdf" but those are facts. The Avenger class ship proves this as well as the cloak. Just because you do not agree with it doesn't mean squat.. the ship and the console are there to prove it.
You can not use a sub factions ability's or npcs as any justification of anything.
Yes. You can. Because this is a casual MMO and not a Star Trek Minutiae simulator. Making the game fun and engaging and offering compelling reasons to experience the non-fed content is more important than following established canon to the letter.
It is a relatively simple matter to hand-wave away all of this. It really is. Cloaking and anti-cloaking technologies are going to be one of those areas that's always, always, ALWAYS moving forward at a high rate. What may have worked 60 years ago may be too resource intensive, to ineffective, or too situation-specific to justify wide-spread deployment of any kind.
How many other people are going to have to show you that your wrong....
The ONLY reason for every fed ship not flying around with cloaks is cryptic or CBS not doing it yet. lore wise its already been stated soo many times that the Treaty is invalid and that in game lore wise feds are researching cloak. So there is nothing stopping the Feds from having it lore wise. RSE war with the federation invalidates the treaty... so just stop arguing your points have been proven wrong over and over and over.. and you keep making stupid arguments side skirting those facts.
You can not use a sub factions ability's or npcs as any justification of anything.
To claim its canon well for one it's canon for this time period and if you want canon well then no carriers for the KDF the only "canon" small attack craft were only ever seen in use by the Federation. In canon Star Trek there is no boost to weapon damage going out of cloak so remove that as well.. we can go on and on about that.
Facts are pretty simple as of the time line right now there is no treaty forbidding cloak research and the Federation is designing ships to use cloak and there own cloak tech. You can stick your head in the sand and mumble "its not fair to the kdf" but those are facts. The Avenger class ship proves this as well as the cloak. Just because you do not agree with it doesn't mean squat.. the ship and the console are there to prove it.
You haven't shown anything. The closest you've got is a console whose description even the pro-Fed cloak side concedes is not fit for purpose, and you've decided to ignore the page 32-34 points 3 times now.
Yes. You can. Because this is a casual MMO and not a Star Trek Minutiae simulator. Making the game fun and engaging and offering compelling reasons to experience the non-fed content is more important than following established canon to the letter.
It is a relatively simple matter to hand-wave away all of this. It really is. Cloaking and anti-cloaking technologies are going to be one of those areas that's always, always, ALWAYS moving forward at a high rate. What may have worked 60 years ago may be too resource intensive, to ineffective, or too situation-specific to justify wide-spread deployment of any kind.
Ok you need to go back and read what was being said.. you totally are off the mark.
he was using the fact that MU npc's some how reflect on Federation.. or that any NPC ability's some how effect player ships ability's of the same class.. that's is what I was referring to.
All I'm saying is that you can not use npcs as a justification of anything that's player related. Many npc's do things the player can not and most player ships do things there NPC counter parts can not.
You haven't shown anything. The closest you've got is a console whose description even the pro-Fed cloak side concedes is not fit for purpose, and you've decided to ignore the page 32-34 points 3 times now.
You stating it again doesn't make any difference.
You are a broken recorded and totally blind...
We did over and over counter those arguments but nice to see you're still trying to avoid and skirt the discussion.
Look mate - us two are never going to agree on this as it stands, and I can't be f**king arsed to be argumentative any more. Life's too short.
I'll compromise for the sake of peace and leave the current status of Fed-cloaks as technically still illegal, but, no one gives a damn about it being illegal.
Look mate - us two are never going to agree on this as it stands, and I can't be f**king arsed to be argumentative any more. Life's too short.
I'll compromise for the sake of peace and leave the current status of Fed-cloaks as technically still illegal, but, no one gives a damn about it being illegal.
Agreed?
or the simople logic the order has since been repealed. either by Okeg later, a sucessor, the fed council, or the fed court.
or the simople logic the order has since been repealed. either by Okeg later, a sucessor, the fed council, or the fed court.
Okeg is still in power, and you have no proof that the order has been repealed apart from a very badly worded sentence that even Fed-Cloak defenders acknowledge as lacking.
Most whit awer arguments war that Fed need to have a Clocking Technology and when we ofter suggestion you just say that illegal and i`ts illegal technicality we have more that one post how cryptic to change that if you are KDF and you do not like this submit on the KDF forum what you do not like so they will fix it and yes fed gets more love(more players) i dint mind playing KDF but i do not like most of the ship so i play FED. You just keep saying that i`ts illegal and we wish to change that so fit whit the lore and so we can have from time to time some ships whit clock.
Most whit awer arguments war that Fed need to have a Clocking Technology and when we ofter suggestion you just say that illegal and i`ts illegal technicality we have more that one post how cryptic to change that if you are KDF and you do not like this submit on the KDF forum what you do not like so they will fix it and yes fed gets more love(more players) i dint mind playing KDF but i do not like most of the ship so i play FED. You just keep saying that i`ts illegal and we wish to change that so fit whit the lore and so we can have from time to time some ships whit clock.
Wow - You've actually spelt more words wrong than right. Despite the forum spellchecking feature.
Okeg is still in power, and you have no proof that the order has been repealed apart from a very badly worded sentence that even Fed-Cloak defenders acknowledge as lacking.
Actually we do have one. On the cloak console itself. also man use some common sense. when Okeg made that order Fed was still at peace with the KDF and the RSE was still a functioning power. years and circumstance have changed. Cutting the Cord and the rise of the Republic change many things.
Actually we do have one. On the cloak console itself. also man use some common sense. when Okeg made that order Fed was still at peace with the KDF and the RSE was still a functioning power. years and circumstance have changed. Cutting the Cord and the rise of the Republic change many things.
Said Cloak console that is phrased so badly almost any other relevant sentence could have done better.
The rest of that we've been over - and on the basis of past experience, you will just ignore it and carry on saying Okeg isn't in power anymore when he is - the least you could do is use basic fact checking to make your point. Like kelshando does.
At least kelshando presents his thoughts in coherent, grammatically correct and spelt right posts - You and daka86 (especially daka86) frequently fail on all 3 grounds, and so I am at least reasonable with kelshando (making an assumption) because he at least reads and understands what I say even though he disagrees with it most of the time. And he has every right to, the internet is a free country.
Said Cloak console that is phrased so badly almost any other relevant sentence could have done better.
The rest of that we've been over - and on the basis of past experience, you will just ignore it and carry on saying Okeg isn't in power anymore when he is - the least you could do is use basic fact checking to make your point. Like kelshando does.
At least kelshando presents his thoughts in coherent, grammatically correct and spelt right posts - You and daka86 (especially daka86) frequently fail on all 3 grounds, and so I am at least reasonable with kelshando (making an assumption) because he at least reads and understands what I say even though he disagrees with it most of the time. And he has every right to, the internet is a free country.
Yes it's a free country but at least i haven't gone down the area of personal attacks to make my point.
The ultimate issue is that Cryptic should really put in the open what the Federation current standing on cloaks is. What we know from series history and The Federation banned cloaks for peace between them and the RSE. They have punish those who have violated it when it happens. But AGT shows that there isn't an actual hatred for cloaks and using them. When peace nolonger becomes an option it is folly to now make use of an item that could save lives.
Yes it's a free country but at least i haven't gone down the area of personal attacks to make my point.
The ultimate issue is that Cryptic should really put in the open what the Federation current standing on cloaks is. What we know from series history and The Federation banned cloaks for peace between them and the RSE. They have punish those who have violated it when it happens. But AGT shows that there isn't an actual hatred for cloaks and using them. When peace nolonger becomes an option it is folly to now make use of an item that could save lives.
See? It may have taken a "personal attack" as you deem it, but, you now actually argue your point in a far more respect worthy manner. Well done, lets hope daka86 follows your example.
And thus, lets start over.
The current standing, as depicted taking every factor at face value and face value only, without additional reasoning, is basically Fed-cloaks are technically illegal but no one gives a damn - hence my offer to kelshando. I presume it will be read in due course of time.
The plain facts:
The last time in STO canon Fed-cloaks became an international issue, 6 Starfleet Officers were court martialled, and the Federation renewed a commitment to peace and Okeg, in his first term of three or more potentially, issued an Executive Order to say no Research and Development of Fed-Cloaks.
All Good Things depicts an alternative and self-cancelling timeline where Admiral Riker had a Cloaking Battleship Enterprise - there was zero coverage of how Riker got a cloak.
Now - as to how we get from 6 officers court-martialled to open Fed-Cloak usage on 3 different classes of ship is a different issue and requires interpreting the various points. The bit I bolded cannot be emphasised enough for this discussion, as all this could have been averted with just a few well placed sentences - despite that, Cryptic failed to do it, so we are left in a situation where at the core the letter says one thing and action says another. (when isn't that the case...)
See? It may have taken a "personal attack" as you deem it, but, you now actually argue your point in a far more respect worthy manner. Well done, lets hope daka86 follows your example.
And thus, lets start over.
The current standing, as depicted taking every factor at face value and face value only, without additional reasoning, is basically Fed-cloaks are technically illegal but no one gives a damn - hence my offer to kelshando. I presume it will be read in due course of time.
The plain facts:
The last time in STO canon Fed-cloaks became an international issue, 6 Starfleet Officers were court martialled, and the Federation renewed a commitment to peace and Okeg, in his first term of three or more potentially, issued an Executive Order to say no Research and Development of Fed-Cloaks.
All Good Things depicts an alternative and self-cancelling timeline where Admiral Riker had a Cloaking Battleship Enterprise - there was zero coverage of how Riker got a cloak.
Now - as to how we get from 6 officers court-martialled to open Fed-Cloak usage on 3 different classes of ship is a different issue and requires interpreting the various points. The bit I bolded cannot be emphasised enough for this discussion, as all this could have been averted with just a few well placed sentences - despite that, Cryptic failed to do it, so we are left in a situation where at the core the letter says one thing and action says another. (when isn't that the case...)
those court-martialed were decades ago...
Ya your points may have been valid 40 years ago.. not current geo-political climate in sto they are not. That's the issue. There is a gap in the lore dating from RSE and the Treaty to current issues such as.
RSE declaring war. The treaty is base on no war no cloaks. Hence RSE going to war invalidates the Treaty
The construction of a cloak capable battle cruiser. This point to a rearming of Starfleet as well as them advancing research for cloaks for there ships.
The console it self is a descriptive of why there is a federation cloak.. its simple they are researching its.
The problem it seems you have is there is no filler data/lore between connecting the old lore, treaty's and executive orders about cloaks to the new STO of researching and building cloak capable ships by the Federation.
The Facts are Federations is making and researching cloaks and cloak combatable ships. How this came to be as far as going around the executive order has not been made public. The treaty has already been shown to be invalid. The treaty was not treaty about a type of weapon being out lawed or such. Those are binding to each party. The treaty was only about peace and when RSE declared war that ended it.
So really the only argument is the executive order. Well its obvious that a ship and cloak being built that order is no longer binding. The only issue we as players look at is why and when. That I think that is your issue with it.. you do not have the answer of why and when even though it perfectly clear that policy in the Federation has changed do to the construction of a brand new battle crusier with cloak compatibility and new cloaks for those ships.
Actually the treaty of Algeron only applied in the Alpha Quadrant. They mentioned a number of times, the Romulans were loaning the Feds cloaking devices as long as they were used outside of the Alpha Quadrant. So there's a pretty big precedent set for being able to possibly use them in Delta Rising.
Not a war, but certainly not peace either - open armed conflict, not war.
Only Feds are still sending food and medical supplies into RSE and ex-RSE worlds to look after civilians.
well one mission fed side has the Federation attacking a RSE held planet. Then again assiting Obisek during Cutting the Cord. With Sela gone their is no known government of the RSE. Only the Tal shair. The truth is the RSE is in the same boat as the True Way. Neither are a recognized government anymore. Again Executive orders can be countermanned. The situation of the galaxy has changed since he wrote that so he could easily change his mind during his other terms. Again Cryptic really needs to clearly state where the fed is on cloaks.
well one mission fed side has the Federation attacking a RSE held planet. Then again assiting Obisek during Cutting the Cord. With Sela gone their is no known government of the RSE. Only the Tal shair. The truth is the RSE is in the same boat as the True Way. Neither are a recognized government anymore. Again Executive orders can be countermanned. The situation of the galaxy has changed since he wrote that so he could easily change his mind during his other terms. Again Cryptic really needs to clearly state where the fed is on cloaks.
I 100% agree that they need to just outright and straightforwardly say, 'Ok, this is where Feds stand on cloaks in terms of the story'. To have something in the here and now saying what the deal was, would go a LONG way to fixing this. Whether it is pro-cloak or not, doesn't matter, it'd be an answer.
Now, while Sela being kidnapped (?), or rescued (?) by the (presumably) Iconians, the RSE is without a leader. But that doesn't mean without a government. At best Sela had some kind of at least short-term successor. At worst, maybe it's broken down into factions and civil strife, without a clear single faction.
The Tal Shiar is not the head of the RSE's government. Even if they were, they wouldn't be recognized due to the recent events involving not only dealing with the Iconians, but the aggressive moves they've made against the Romulan Republic.
The True Way really has nothing to do with any of this. They were never a 'government' of any sort in the first place. They are, from the POV of most of the powers in the game...an extremist terrorist organization made up of Cardassians who seek to return Cardassia to it's more imperialist roots.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
well one mission fed side has the Federation attacking a RSE held planet. Then again assiting Obisek during Cutting the Cord. With Sela gone their is no known government of the RSE. Only the Tal shair. The truth is the RSE is in the same boat as the True Way. Neither are a recognized government anymore. Again Executive orders can be countermanned. The situation of the galaxy has changed since he wrote that so he could easily change his mind during his other terms. Again Cryptic really needs to clearly state where the fed is on cloaks.
Doesn't stop the no declaration part, Cutting the Cord only dealt with stopping Hakeev and Sela, not the RSE itself. The Tal'Shiar are not the government, just one of its departments. The RSE still has a nobility class and a Senate to lead the RSE (even if the latter is just Sela's yes men/women) and the only point on RSE not being recognised is not being at the Conference in the latest FE - which is hardly a point, as many other race's governments were not represented at the Conference. And the Executive Order has not being countered in lore, only on an inadequately phrased console description.
Actually the treaty of Algeron only applied in the Alpha Quadrant. They mentioned a number of times, the Romulans were loaning the Feds cloaking devices as long as they were used outside of the Alpha Quadrant. So there's a pretty big precedent set for being able to possibly use them in Delta Rising.
The Defiant only was allowed a cloak, and it was for Gamma Quadrant use only, with a Romulan Officer aboard to enforce it - both were dropped PDQ by DS9 writers.
DR is another thing, as that would have to be the clarification if they wanted to change it.
Here's the thing about Sisko using the Defiant's Cloak whenever he wanted. Nobody cared.
The Admirals in Starfleet took a don't ask don't tell approach. I doubt there was an entry in the Captains log where he stated he used the Cloak in violation of the Treaty of Algernon (which was current during DS9s run) and expected to be Court Martialed the next day.
Did the Klingons care that one cloak capable Federation vessel was stationed at DS9 fighting the Dominion of course not. I think the Romulans didn't care that much either because it was in their best interest to let the Dominion and Federation fight it out.
His crew weren't about to rat him out either. And since the Admirals of Starfleet knew it but pretended they didn't everyone was pretty insulated from any ramifications. Why because Sisko getting a court martial every other week for using the Cloak would have been boring.
At the end of the day it was but a single ship and the Klingons and Romulans both knew they could bust him any time they wanted if the felt like it. It served their best interests and the writers needs for him to cloak when ever the hell he needed to.
As to the Enterprise D Dreadnought from AGT, we don't know if that timeline was even real or a Q illusion, needless to say that didn't come to pass and it's use of an Argument is removed from the table. The reason the ship is in the game is because it's a Game and people mentioned they would be willing to pay money for such a thing.
Next argument to destroy. The Treaty of Algernon is gone, dead, toast. The Path to 2409 says this. But it also says the President of the Federation, Okeg decided to honour the spirit of the Treaty and so issued an Executive Order stopping the Federation from using Cloaks.
The final nail in the coffin is your asking for a cloaking device based off a ship and technology that under all but the most ridiculous of assessments would be considered a failure. Not to mention the Oberth Class is basically a 130 year old flying lab that even when new was considered under gunned compared to every other ship.
As to why their are Federation Ships in the game with cloaking technology? The same reason their are random alien ships all over the place. It's a game and Cryptic wanted the Hero ships of the Federation to behave like they did on Screen. As for the Avenger? It's basically a Klingon ship.
And my final question.
If Cloaking technology is so important to you, why then did you pick the Federation over the Klingons or Romulans? The Federation is well known for not using Cloaks where as both the Klingons and the newer Romulans are well known for having Cloaks.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Here's the thing about Sisko using the Defiant's Cloak whenever he wanted. Nobody cared.
The Admirals in Starfleet took a don't ask don't tell approach. I doubt there was an entry in the Captains log where he stated he used the Cloak in violation of the Treaty of Algernon (which was current during DS9s run) and expected to be Court Martialed the next day.
Did the Klingons care that one cloak capable Federation vessel was stationed at DS9 fighting the Dominion of course not. I think the Romulans didn't care that much either because it was in their best interest to let the Dominion and Federation fight it out.
His crew weren't about to rat him out either. And since the Admirals of Starfleet knew it but pretended they didn't everyone was pretty insulated from any ramifications. Why because Sisko getting a court martial every other week for using the Cloak would have been boring.
At the end of the day it was but a single ship and the Klingons and Romulans both knew they could bust him any time they wanted if the felt like it. It served their best interests and the writers needs for him to cloak when ever the hell he needed to.
As to the Enterprise D Dreadnought from AGT, we don't know if that timeline was even real or a Q illusion, needless to say that didn't come to pass and it's use of an Argument is removed from the table. The reason the ship is in the game is because it's a Game and people mentioned they would be willing to pay money for such a thing.
Next argument to destroy. The Treaty of Algernon is gone, dead, toast. The Path to 2409 says this. But it also says the President of the Federation, Okeg decided to honour the spirit of the Treaty and so issued an Executive Order stopping the Federation from using Cloaks.
The final nail in the coffin is your asking for a cloaking device based off a ship and technology that under all but the most ridiculous of assessments would be considered a failure. Not to mention the Oberth Class is basically a 130 year old flying lab that even when new was considered under gunned compared to every other ship.
As to why their are Federation Ships in the game with cloaking technology? The same reason their are random alien ships all over the place. It's a game and Cryptic wanted the Hero ships of the Federation to behave like they did on Screen. As for the Avenger? It's basically a Klingon ship.
And my final question.
If Cloaking technology is so important to you, why then did you pick the Federation over the Klingons or Romulans? The Federation is well known for not using Cloaks where as both the Klingons and the newer Romulans are well known for having Cloaks.
the similarities between AGT and STO are too hard to ignore. And Oberth is a 130 year old design but the Pegasus was not a standard Oberth. She was a test bed for the tech used on the Galaxy family and the Phase cloak WORKED.
Why the feds want cloak is down to 2 reasons. 1: Kerrat. 2: we are tired of giving up a console slot for a cloak. it should be integrated like the rest of the games cloaks.
Federation didn't use cloaks only due to treaty for peace. Okeg try to keep the peace when he signed that order. It failed so it can be reasonable made that the order has since been countermanned.
Comments
Have you read any of the page you quoted that from?
I was referring to the bit you quoted of mine, and what page it was on - that console has already been discussed, and so far it has caused the only agreement in 39 pages.
How many other people are going to have to show you that your wrong....
The ONLY reason for every fed ship not flying around with cloaks is cryptic or CBS not doing it yet. lore wise its already been stated soo many times that the Treaty is invalid and that in game lore wise feds are researching cloak. So there is nothing stopping the Feds from having it lore wise. RSE war with the federation invalidates the treaty... so just stop arguing your points have been proven wrong over and over and over.. and you keep making stupid arguments side skirting those facts.
You can not use a sub factions ability's or npcs as any justification of anything.
To claim its canon well for one it's canon for this time period and if you want canon well then no carriers for the KDF the only "canon" small attack craft were only ever seen in use by the Federation. In canon Star Trek there is no boost to weapon damage going out of cloak so remove that as well.. we can go on and on about that.
Facts are pretty simple as of the time line right now there is no treaty forbidding cloak research and the Federation is designing ships to use cloak and there own cloak tech. You can stick your head in the sand and mumble "its not fair to the kdf" but those are facts. The Avenger class ship proves this as well as the cloak. Just because you do not agree with it doesn't mean squat.. the ship and the console are there to prove it.
Yes. You can. Because this is a casual MMO and not a Star Trek Minutiae simulator. Making the game fun and engaging and offering compelling reasons to experience the non-fed content is more important than following established canon to the letter.
It is a relatively simple matter to hand-wave away all of this. It really is. Cloaking and anti-cloaking technologies are going to be one of those areas that's always, always, ALWAYS moving forward at a high rate. What may have worked 60 years ago may be too resource intensive, to ineffective, or too situation-specific to justify wide-spread deployment of any kind.
You haven't shown anything. The closest you've got is a console whose description even the pro-Fed cloak side concedes is not fit for purpose, and you've decided to ignore the page 32-34 points 3 times now.
You stating it again doesn't make any difference.
Ok you need to go back and read what was being said.. you totally are off the mark.
he was using the fact that MU npc's some how reflect on Federation.. or that any NPC ability's some how effect player ships ability's of the same class.. that's is what I was referring to.
All I'm saying is that you can not use npcs as a justification of anything that's player related. Many npc's do things the player can not and most player ships do things there NPC counter parts can not.
You are a broken recorded and totally blind...
We did over and over counter those arguments but nice to see you're still trying to avoid and skirt the discussion.
4 times now. I never skirted the discussion - you are.
???Huh???
I don't know, I'm going back to sleep.....:P
I'll compromise for the sake of peace and leave the current status of Fed-cloaks as technically still illegal, but, no one gives a damn about it being illegal.
Agreed?
or the simople logic the order has since been repealed. either by Okeg later, a sucessor, the fed council, or the fed court.
Okeg is still in power, and you have no proof that the order has been repealed apart from a very badly worded sentence that even Fed-Cloak defenders acknowledge as lacking.
Wow - You've actually spelt more words wrong than right. Despite the forum spellchecking feature.
Actually we do have one. On the cloak console itself. also man use some common sense. when Okeg made that order Fed was still at peace with the KDF and the RSE was still a functioning power. years and circumstance have changed. Cutting the Cord and the rise of the Republic change many things.
Said Cloak console that is phrased so badly almost any other relevant sentence could have done better.
The rest of that we've been over - and on the basis of past experience, you will just ignore it and carry on saying Okeg isn't in power anymore when he is - the least you could do is use basic fact checking to make your point. Like kelshando does.
At least kelshando presents his thoughts in coherent, grammatically correct and spelt right posts - You and daka86 (especially daka86) frequently fail on all 3 grounds, and so I am at least reasonable with kelshando (making an assumption) because he at least reads and understands what I say even though he disagrees with it most of the time. And he has every right to, the internet is a free country.
Yes it's a free country but at least i haven't gone down the area of personal attacks to make my point.
The ultimate issue is that Cryptic should really put in the open what the Federation current standing on cloaks is. What we know from series history and The Federation banned cloaks for peace between them and the RSE. They have punish those who have violated it when it happens. But AGT shows that there isn't an actual hatred for cloaks and using them. When peace nolonger becomes an option it is folly to now make use of an item that could save lives.
See? It may have taken a "personal attack" as you deem it, but, you now actually argue your point in a far more respect worthy manner. Well done, lets hope daka86 follows your example.
And thus, lets start over.
The current standing, as depicted taking every factor at face value and face value only, without additional reasoning, is basically Fed-cloaks are technically illegal but no one gives a damn - hence my offer to kelshando. I presume it will be read in due course of time.
The plain facts:
The last time in STO canon Fed-cloaks became an international issue, 6 Starfleet Officers were court martialled, and the Federation renewed a commitment to peace and Okeg, in his first term of three or more potentially, issued an Executive Order to say no Research and Development of Fed-Cloaks.
All Good Things depicts an alternative and self-cancelling timeline where Admiral Riker had a Cloaking Battleship Enterprise - there was zero coverage of how Riker got a cloak.
Now - as to how we get from 6 officers court-martialled to open Fed-Cloak usage on 3 different classes of ship is a different issue and requires interpreting the various points. The bit I bolded cannot be emphasised enough for this discussion, as all this could have been averted with just a few well placed sentences - despite that, Cryptic failed to do it, so we are left in a situation where at the core the letter says one thing and action says another. (when isn't that the case...)
those court-martialed were decades ago...
Ya your points may have been valid 40 years ago.. not current geo-political climate in sto they are not. That's the issue. There is a gap in the lore dating from RSE and the Treaty to current issues such as.
RSE declaring war. The treaty is base on no war no cloaks. Hence RSE going to war invalidates the Treaty
The construction of a cloak capable battle cruiser. This point to a rearming of Starfleet as well as them advancing research for cloaks for there ships.
The console it self is a descriptive of why there is a federation cloak.. its simple they are researching its.
The problem it seems you have is there is no filler data/lore between connecting the old lore, treaty's and executive orders about cloaks to the new STO of researching and building cloak capable ships by the Federation.
The Facts are Federations is making and researching cloaks and cloak combatable ships. How this came to be as far as going around the executive order has not been made public. The treaty has already been shown to be invalid. The treaty was not treaty about a type of weapon being out lawed or such. Those are binding to each party. The treaty was only about peace and when RSE declared war that ended it.
So really the only argument is the executive order. Well its obvious that a ship and cloak being built that order is no longer binding. The only issue we as players look at is why and when. That I think that is your issue with it.. you do not have the answer of why and when even though it perfectly clear that policy in the Federation has changed do to the construction of a brand new battle crusier with cloak compatibility and new cloaks for those ships.
I just want some sort of solid confirmation either way - I think we all do.
(one thing - 40 years is TNG era, Kelso was far more recent than that)
maybe I missed it but when did the RSE declare war on the Federation?
Not a war, but certainly not peace either - open armed conflict, not war.
Only Feds are still sending food and medical supplies into RSE and ex-RSE worlds to look after civilians.
well one mission fed side has the Federation attacking a RSE held planet. Then again assiting Obisek during Cutting the Cord. With Sela gone their is no known government of the RSE. Only the Tal shair. The truth is the RSE is in the same boat as the True Way. Neither are a recognized government anymore. Again Executive orders can be countermanned. The situation of the galaxy has changed since he wrote that so he could easily change his mind during his other terms. Again Cryptic really needs to clearly state where the fed is on cloaks.
I 100% agree that they need to just outright and straightforwardly say, 'Ok, this is where Feds stand on cloaks in terms of the story'. To have something in the here and now saying what the deal was, would go a LONG way to fixing this. Whether it is pro-cloak or not, doesn't matter, it'd be an answer.
Now, while Sela being kidnapped (?), or rescued (?) by the (presumably) Iconians, the RSE is without a leader. But that doesn't mean without a government. At best Sela had some kind of at least short-term successor. At worst, maybe it's broken down into factions and civil strife, without a clear single faction.
The Tal Shiar is not the head of the RSE's government. Even if they were, they wouldn't be recognized due to the recent events involving not only dealing with the Iconians, but the aggressive moves they've made against the Romulan Republic.
The True Way really has nothing to do with any of this. They were never a 'government' of any sort in the first place. They are, from the POV of most of the powers in the game...an extremist terrorist organization made up of Cardassians who seek to return Cardassia to it's more imperialist roots.
Doesn't stop the no declaration part, Cutting the Cord only dealt with stopping Hakeev and Sela, not the RSE itself. The Tal'Shiar are not the government, just one of its departments. The RSE still has a nobility class and a Senate to lead the RSE (even if the latter is just Sela's yes men/women) and the only point on RSE not being recognised is not being at the Conference in the latest FE - which is hardly a point, as many other race's governments were not represented at the Conference. And the Executive Order has not being countered in lore, only on an inadequately phrased console description.
The Defiant only was allowed a cloak, and it was for Gamma Quadrant use only, with a Romulan Officer aboard to enforce it - both were dropped PDQ by DS9 writers.
DR is another thing, as that would have to be the clarification if they wanted to change it.
The Admirals in Starfleet took a don't ask don't tell approach. I doubt there was an entry in the Captains log where he stated he used the Cloak in violation of the Treaty of Algernon (which was current during DS9s run) and expected to be Court Martialed the next day.
Did the Klingons care that one cloak capable Federation vessel was stationed at DS9 fighting the Dominion of course not. I think the Romulans didn't care that much either because it was in their best interest to let the Dominion and Federation fight it out.
His crew weren't about to rat him out either. And since the Admirals of Starfleet knew it but pretended they didn't everyone was pretty insulated from any ramifications. Why because Sisko getting a court martial every other week for using the Cloak would have been boring.
At the end of the day it was but a single ship and the Klingons and Romulans both knew they could bust him any time they wanted if the felt like it. It served their best interests and the writers needs for him to cloak when ever the hell he needed to.
As to the Enterprise D Dreadnought from AGT, we don't know if that timeline was even real or a Q illusion, needless to say that didn't come to pass and it's use of an Argument is removed from the table. The reason the ship is in the game is because it's a Game and people mentioned they would be willing to pay money for such a thing.
Next argument to destroy. The Treaty of Algernon is gone, dead, toast. The Path to 2409 says this. But it also says the President of the Federation, Okeg decided to honour the spirit of the Treaty and so issued an Executive Order stopping the Federation from using Cloaks.
The final nail in the coffin is your asking for a cloaking device based off a ship and technology that under all but the most ridiculous of assessments would be considered a failure. Not to mention the Oberth Class is basically a 130 year old flying lab that even when new was considered under gunned compared to every other ship.
As to why their are Federation Ships in the game with cloaking technology? The same reason their are random alien ships all over the place. It's a game and Cryptic wanted the Hero ships of the Federation to behave like they did on Screen. As for the Avenger? It's basically a Klingon ship.
And my final question.
If Cloaking technology is so important to you, why then did you pick the Federation over the Klingons or Romulans? The Federation is well known for not using Cloaks where as both the Klingons and the newer Romulans are well known for having Cloaks.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
the similarities between AGT and STO are too hard to ignore. And Oberth is a 130 year old design but the Pegasus was not a standard Oberth. She was a test bed for the tech used on the Galaxy family and the Phase cloak WORKED.
Why the feds want cloak is down to 2 reasons. 1: Kerrat. 2: we are tired of giving up a console slot for a cloak. it should be integrated like the rest of the games cloaks.
Federation didn't use cloaks only due to treaty for peace. Okeg try to keep the peace when he signed that order. It failed so it can be reasonable made that the order has since been countermanned.