STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
its not exactly accurate to say the devs never listen to us or ignore this section. we just had borticus talking about maps and genesis and foundry relating to pvp. they know us pvpers are the brain trust when it comes to game mechanics, were gonna find the bugs, the exploits, the imbalances. when there's nothing but Punish the Feds! TRIBBLE threads dominating the front page there's nothing of substance to look at, and if there was something important to actually talk about it will get buried under RP these days here. sure, there's nothing substantive to talk about right now, theres been no update on that space meta thing, no real info out of DR, but i have a feeling thats going to change and soon.
thats why i want all this RP and 'pvp culture' stuff out of the main pvp section, and its own subforum, seems best for all.
Forum rules aren't hard to comprehend, unless the person is illiterate or mentally challenged. More often than not, I'm sure troublemakers break the rules on purpose, fully aware of them.
So yeah, Blue geek is stating the obvious here and you're doing the same by defending him/her. Clearly, someone has misunderstood the point of this thread. Topics that are relevant to PvP and that also do not break rules of user conduct are getting censored under the current system. The solution is to amend the system. That much is clear.
Anyways, pvpers are 14 years old minmaxers who cares about their needs.
Fine even if you take the rule situation out of the picture, there is already forums for RP and for off topic posts that don't belong in the feedback or systems discussions.
Sorry but I'm 100% against adding a social forum just for pvp'ers.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Fine even if you take the rule situation out of the picture, there is already forums for RP and for off topic posts that don't belong in the feedback or systems discussions.
Sorry but I'm 100% against adding a social forum just for pvp'ers.
Really shows how the mods and devs care about pvpers.
as i already said we need a pvp forum specific mod who is also a pvper.
Sad Pandas PvP - Starfleet Dental Member - Lag Industries Leader
--
"What a time it was, with all the world against us, what a time it was... When all we did seemed wrong,
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
it would be naive to expect such miracles from people who have no clue about actual gameplay of the game they design and program :cool:
1) I don't develop anything in STO or Cryptic.
2) I've been doing moderation of forums since cgi-bin forums were popular and before that BBS servers so I actually have an idea how to moderate and no, it doesn't matter if I'm a pvp'er (which I do pvp) or not. It's about the rules, it's about forum structure. We have 30 some odd forums, adding another to moderate would mean we'd have another area we'd have to go pay attention in, and it'd be really a duplicate of the ten forward area and RP forum.
I'm sorry that you feel that "Because I don't know pvp I have no authority to moderate/speak about forum policy in the pvp forum." But that's just completely false.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Askray, no disrespect meant, but if one more sub forum would overload you to that extent in a volunteer position, you should possibly reconsider the position. Again, no disrespect meant, but your response is coming across as "I don't want more volunteer work".
I understand you are not the person who can make this decision. I understand BG is also in the same boat. What were asking for here is either 1) the person in charge of a decision like thisto be notified of this post by you or bg without your personal bias involved or 2) said person to come here and have an actual conversation with us.
Again no disrespect meant, pls no forum ban kkthnxchnk
Askray, no disrespect meant, but if one more sub forum would overload you to that extent in a volunteer position, you should possibly reconsider the position. Again, no disrespect meant, but your response is coming across as "I don't want more volunteer work".
I understand you are not the person who can make this decision. I understand BG is also in the same boat. What were asking for here is either 1) the person in charge of a decision like thisto be notified of this post by you or bg without your personal bias involved or 2) said person to come here and have an actual conversation with us.
Again no disrespect meant, pls no forum ban kkthnxchnk
Okay then if it's coming across as I don't want more work that's not it. Considering I'm also looking at helping keep the master bug list this week cleaned up I'm taking on things that aren't my responsibility but trying to help players :P
We can pass it along to Smirk as he'd be the one to make that final call.
Yes, you have said that on multiple occasions. I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to accomplish by repeating yourself.
You wanna play legal? I think that would be fun, I'm bored anyway.
"- Introduce yourself, share fan art, fan fiction, and make friends here! Romulan Ale is still prohibited. The Captain's Table (RP) sub-forum can also be found here."
Show me where it says PvP in the Ten forward description in quotations lol.
You can be literal all you want. but Ten Forward is for off topic conversation or real life things (always has been and you know that deokkent :P), the RP forum is for obviously, RP. It doesn't matter if it's PvP RP or not, it's for all RP.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Fine even if you take the rule situation out of the picture, there is already forums for RP and for off topic posts that don't belong in the feedback or systems discussions.
Sorry but I'm 100% against adding a social forum just for pvp'ers.
Meh, I need to find somebody to hide behind as I post this...but honestly then, why do we have as many sections to the forums as we already do? Like I posted earlier in response to bluegeek about folks discussing builds/mechanics...it's an all over the place sort of thing. Why isn't that a centralized thing?
You've got to know that forcing the PvP folks into Ten Forward for discussions that aren't "feedback or systems" isn't going to end well. And that's not a case of saying that the PvP folks are going to end up trolling all the threads there...it's a case of saying that the PvE folks are going to end up trolling all the PvP threads there. It's one of the reasons why so much that could be discussed elsewhere ends up being discussed in the PvP forums...cause one of the dime a dozen PvE trolls will come crying into the threads to get them closed otherwise.
Meh, I need to find somebody to hide behind as I post this...but honestly then, why do we have as many sections to the forums as we already do? Like I posted earlier in response to bluegeek about folks discussing builds/mechanics...it's an all over the place sort of thing. Why isn't that a centralized thing?
This is how it honestly got broken down by a lot of discussion and debate from internal to key people. Honestly, I don't know totally how it was worked out, but that's what I was told.
There is another thread that's talking about forum reconstruction that you're more than welcome to chime in if you got a great idea on how the structure should go.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
1) I don't develop anything in STO or Cryptic.
2) I've been doing moderation of forums since cgi-bin forums were popular and before that BBS servers so I actually have an idea how to moderate and no, it doesn't matter if I'm a pvp'er (which I do pvp) or not. It's about the rules, it's about forum structure. We have 30 some odd forums, adding another to moderate would mean we'd have another area we'd have to go pay attention in, and it'd be really a duplicate of the ten forward area and RP forum.
I'm sorry that you feel that "Because I don't know pvp I have no authority to moderate/speak about forum policy in the pvp forum." But that's just completely false.
Its not about knowing PvP, it's about knowing the PvP community, and knowing why threads like the "punish the feds/evuls" are done... And only someone who's in the community can know, and unfortunately judging threads without knowing their meaning never leads to good results.
If you want to moderate the PvP forums drop in the OPVP channel, come to Ker'rat, be part of the community.
Sad Pandas PvP - Starfleet Dental Member - Lag Industries Leader
--
"What a time it was, with all the world against us, what a time it was... When all we did seemed wrong,
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
it would be naive to expect such miracles from people who have no clue about actual gameplay of the game they design and program :cool:
Unfortunately you're right...
Sad Pandas PvP - Starfleet Dental Member - Lag Industries Leader
--
"What a time it was, with all the world against us, what a time it was... When all we did seemed wrong,
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
Its not about knowing PvP, it's about knowing the PvP community, and knowing why threads like the "punish the feds/evuls" are done... And only someone who's in the community can know, and unfortunately judging threads without knowing their meaning never leads to good results.
If you want to moderate the PvP forums drop in the OPVP channel, come to Ker'rat, be part of the community.
Actually, I'm in the opvp channel (I THINK i'm still in it anyways, i haven't looked at my channel listing in awhile), been to ker'rat many many times.
there's like at least 5 sections that ether don't need to exist, or could be condensed down
If you got suggestions by all means; fire them off. But in the end, yes we have the right to an opinion as anyone else :P
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Another +1 from me, and I probably wouldn't get involved. I do support this for the PvP community though, as the PvE side of the forums are absolutely terrifying most of the time. Just read through the Space Metagame Changes thread and try to resist the urge to slam your head on the nearest hard object, all the while wondering how the PvE heroes haven't ran this game into complete oblivion. Seriously, there are some absolute GEMS in there...
If you got suggestions by all means; fire them off. But in the end, yes we have the right to an opinion as anyone else :P
well, branflacks was making the calls back during the last reorganization, and he unfortunately didn't trim near enough fat.
like, why does Federation Gameplay, Klingon Gameplay, Romulan Gameplay, Feature Episodes, Events and PvE Content and for that mater PvP Gameplay all exist at once? all thats needed is a pve gamplay, and pvp gamplay section. all the ship yard sections are pretty redundant too.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
We do understand that a thread like Minis (small sams) wasn't really a thread that belonged 100% in the PvP section as the description currently states. We do get that... hence the request for a sub section. The thread was ONLY aimed at the PvP community. No one is going to wonder "where is mini max wasn't he supposed to organize that 50 man STF this evening ?" lmao
He made the post knowing that many evenings he is one of the folks leading the 10v10s or Tyler Durden matches that get setup in game... or some open zone battle in kerrat. Or even just chatting in Opvp. He simply wanted folks to know he would return when his situation got fixed. Moving it to 10 forward... is technically the right call the way things are setup right now. No one is saying Askray WTH did you do that. We get 100% why you moved it. Its why Mancom suggested the sub forum. There those types of threads would be noticed by the people they are intended to be seen by.
Earlier I backed up BG only because I can surely see why he/she would be concerned considering some recent forum behaviour perhaps. The OP and most of us supporting him are not asking for a rPvP cage fight section. Simply a section where our slighly off topic (however still very much pvp related) topics can be moved to... or created in, so that they remain relevant. To be honest not having it and moving threads to sections 9000 km away only creates more work for you guys. As people who have there stuff moved simply create new threads, skirting rules and sometimes breaking them. Simply forcing you to take more action. There is no way it makes your lives easier imo. Such a subsection would very likely have minimal activity its true... however if a thread gets moved there at least its into a child section and still easily noticed and responded to.
Don't have any devs on our side...don't have any mods even on our side...hell, the only person on our side is the bloodsucking lawyer!
+1 to the idea.
So sad he died. awesome movie though.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
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Test servers would remain the same, each broken down into three sections.
DISCLAIMER: I'm not the one who makes the decision. This is just my own somewhat informed opinion.
And I'm of two minds about it.
On the one hand, it's not a totally unreasonable suggestion. It's technically feasible.
But.
First of all, let's talk about the elephant in the room. If some of you are thinking that you'd get your very own subforum where you can trash talk and break normal forum rules, that isn't going to happen. The adversarial nature of many of the 'social' posts in this forum is not acceptable. Moving it somewhere else doesn't make it better.
If you really want your own little corner of the forums to socialize in, some of you need to learn to play nice. PWE has no incentive to encourage more of the same thing that they're trying to put a lid on, and the case for setting up a dedicated subforum is practically doomed from the start.
Secondly, PWE needs to answer the question for itself whether the PvE community needs it's own independent social area and whether that's in their best interests to promote. In other words, why should you guys get different treatment from other members of the community?
/snip
IMO, it boils down to this: Would a PvP-centric social subforum promote the game in a positive light, benefit the PvP community, and be worth any additional forum management necessary?
I'm not at all convinced the answer to that question is 'yes'. It would be great for some of you, if it stayed free of trolls and flames and arguments. But the way things are going and have been for a long time now? Just a lot more closed threads and moderation, I'm afraid.
Again, this is my own personal opinion. I don't make the decision. Make your case and maybe PWE will grant your wish.
@bluegeek there are two fallacies in you train of thought:
1)Why are PvP'ers special?
They are not. We all would love to here from D'deridex NPC's posting on the forums, but somehow they don't come out to post all that often. This game is 99% PvE, and if you look at all the different forms and sub-forums necessary to somewhat structure players conversations about things that don't talk back, adding a social sub-forum for PvP isn't really about making pvp special. We are just the only ones shooting at things that talk back. Which somehow has lead to a 4 year ongoing conversation, about ...you know stuff.
If we want to do certain things we have to communicate with real persons, and not ask in the foundry how something can be made with cryptics tools. Take DDIS ship build guide, as an example. It's a repost of Mav's guide from god knows when (S1,2?). NPC's don't have these kind of conversations with STO players, and although mav has moved on from the game. He pops onto the forums. PvP'ers aren't special, we just have different conversations when we talk from Player to Player. Archived Post (aka Faithborn) hasn't been seen in game in years. yet his guide is still part of the conversation. RIP S2 Borg Gates, you never said much, but now the silence is eternal.
2) Whats in it for PWE.
This game has fostered an active community for about 4 years now. For many reasons ppl drop in and out of the game. Yet, we still use these forums to communicate with each other. This in itself should make PWE want us here. What better marketing then a naturally grown community? If the pvp forums get to cluttered with non-feedback stuff, we'll just post our awesome fifa scores kicking hilbert's butt with my FC. ST. Pauli mod elsewhere. The fact that we come here is a good thing. Since these forumites played this game at one point, there is a chance they'll come back again. Providing the virtual lockerroom (to stick with the analogy) is good for PWE and STO. Its because of this grown community that a Civ 4 PvP campaign score, might be ever so slightly more often relevant to STO, then say random Tetris high scores. Having a bunch of people that have something to say to each other, is about the only thing that PR, Op goodies, and coupons can't buy you. I'm sure that someone at PWE realises that this kind of community building is good for business and the game.
Finally, hilbert might be wrong. Maybe the whole social stuff should stay where it is, but we actually need a feedback sub forum. One where we feel our feedback doesn't constantly fall on deaf ears. I can't believe that i m the only one that has given up on feedback all together. See my sig, there is a reason i can't be bothered to update it for 2014 anymore, and it's not a reversal of trends compared to 2010-2013.
In any case, like it or not, moving pvp community posts into 10 forward, effectively drowning them in a flood of post about other stuff, disrupts the community. If that is your goal, job accomplished. I fail to see how that can be in PWE interest.
Yes we have to follows the rules. What else is new, the sun will go up tomorrow, sky is still blue?
The dev support is spotty at best (nothing against Bort, Hawk, Jheinig, Branflakes, or anyone else over the years, but it is true). I know it is mostly Bluegeek and yourself doing the forum mod thing, but there ain't exactly much support from you guys about stuff.
I mean hell, there ain't really even that many PvPers left even from the days when I began or when PvP Bootcamp still went on. I used to on average have a half to a full page of friends on at a time when I played STO, usually at few of them at least PvPers in matches.
I might've made a reference in my previous post, but I felt it was a truthful one, we really don't have anyone on 'our side'...besides each other, and that ain't exactly a unified family either.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
@bluegeek there are two fallacies in you train of thought:
1)Why are PvP'ers special?
They are not. We all would love to here from D'deridex NPC's posting on the forums, but somehow they don't come out to post all that often. This game is 99% PvE, and if you look at all the different forms and sub-forums necessary to somewhat structure players conversations about things that don't talk back, adding a social sub-forum for PvP isn't really about making pvp special. We are just the only ones shooting at things that talk back. Which somehow has lead to a 4 year ongoing conversation, about ...you know stuff.
If we want to do certain things we have to communicate with real persons, and not ask in the foundry how something can be made with cryptics tools. Take DDIS ship build guide, as an example. It's a repost of Mav's guide from god knows when (S1,2?). NPC's don't have these kind of conversations with STO players, and although mav has moved on from the game. He pops onto the forums. PvP'ers aren't special, we just have different conversations when we talk from Player to Player. Archived Post (aka Faithborn) hasn't been seen in game in years. yet his guide is still part of the conversation. RIP S2 Borg Gates, you never said much, but now the silence is eternal.
2) Whats in it for PWE.
This game has fostered an active community for about 4 years now. For many reasons ppl drop in and out of the game. Yet, we still use these forums to communicate with each other. This in itself should make PWE want us here. What better marketing then a naturally grown community? If the pvp forums get to cluttered with non-feedback stuff, we'll just post our awesome fifa scores kicking hilbert's butt with my FC. ST. Pauli mod elsewhere. The fact that we come here is a good thing. Since these forumites played this game at one point, there is a chance they'll come back again. Providing the virtual lockerroom (to stick with the analogy) is good for PWE and STO. Its because of this grown community that a Civ 4 PvP campaign score, might be ever so slightly more often relevant to STO, then say random Tetris high scores. Having a bunch of people that have something to say to each other, is about the only thing that PR, Op goodies, and coupons can't buy you. I'm sure that someone at PWE realises that this kind of community building is good for business and the game.
Finally, hilbert might be wrong. Maybe the whole social stuff should stay where it is, but we actually need a feedback sub forum. One where we feel our feedback doesn't constantly fall on deaf ears. I can't believe that i m the only one that has given up on feedback all together. See my sig, there is a reason i can't be bothered to update it for 2014 anymore, and it's not a reversal of trends compared to 2010-2013.
In any case, like it or not, moving pvp community posts into 10 forward, effectively drowning them in a flood of post about other stuff, disrupts the community. If that is your goal, job accomplished. I fail to see how that can be in PWE interest.
Yes we have to follows the rules. What else is new, the sun will go up tomorrow, sky is still blue?
/slow clap
hear, hear! nothing to add, but may that those "flame-wars" generate interest to be part of em ingame. it attracts to pick a side, to go in there and be part of those glorious battles one can read about on the forums. and if only the people who are interested in pvp in the first place (most of those who are not probably not ever really gonna try it anyways). as for me, i visit kerrat much more often these days than i did before (only used to go there for the daily).
and sure, the rules, but on the other hand all that smack-talk generates interest as well as entertainment (as long as within the rules).
all good things!
I actually started to make a recommendation that we set up a special place with relaxed rules for "smack talk".
And right about then some people decided to test the boundaries in this forum and I retracted my idea as unworkable.
In contrast to Askray, I'm not dead set against the idea of some kinds of 'social' threads staying put. Mainly I question whether or not an entire subforum is required. Would there be enough traffic in the form of legitimate posts to warrant such a thing? Or would it be one more place where heavy moderation is required?
I hate to even say it, but this might be a case where the PvP Community needs its' own Community-run board. Regardless of what some might think, I don't want to see you guys vanish from this place. I believe you're a valuable part of this community and STO would be the worse if you guys were to disengage.
One alternative idea that we might get support for is a Sticky conversation thread for the kind of special interest posts that Mancom talked about. Those would get posted there or nowhere, and smack talk would not be allowed in it.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I actually started to make a recommendation that we set up a special place with relaxed rules for "smack talk".
And right about then some people decided to test the boundaries in this forum and I retracted my idea as unworkable.
I think that part of the problem is that nobody truly knows what these boundaries are. Since moderation may not be discussed and moderated posts can't be looked up to see what it actually was the got moderated, one cannot learn from previous examples (unless oneself was the offender). I have often come back to threads where I knew I had read all posts in them and seen nothing particularly disturbing and yet suddenly there were moderation edits all over the place.
And then there are threads in the vein of "Evul KDF vs treehugging Feds" where I have no idea what they are supposed to be about and so I usually don't even read them. I only notice that it must have been a big issue when I suddenly see "they took our threads"-threads popping up all over the place after someone went wishstone on the population. It feels as if most moderation happens as a result of a reaction to previous moderation that was perceived as unnecessary.
I then often wish I could click a "I'm an adult, I can take it." button to read an uncensored version (well, minus obvious edits that are needed due to legal reasons, but I doubt that this a relevant number) and understand what happened.
Referring to the written rules doesn't really help because lots of things get moderated that are not in the rules. My favourite example: There is nothing in the rules against "I quit" threads. And yet they always get closed under the pretence that they automatically lead to flaming and trolling which simply isn't true - it depends on the context and target audience; in some subforums there will be endless "what a crybaby" responses, in others there will be goodbyes and solemn mourning of fallen comrades.
That's why I feel that it is so important that context is preserved (like Mini's thread that simply did not belong in Ten Forward). A more responsible moderation in the PVP forum would certainly be preferable to a social subforum, but considering that moderation is a black box whose contents must not be discussed, it's easier to ask for technical help in the form of a subforum.
its not like its huge effort to hop from forum to forum, but I guess effort is in short suppy these days
They are asking for another forum to put this stuff in, just under the PvP forum...kind of like a "subforum," as mentioned in the title...
The average PvE hero (RP or not), stays away from the PvP forums, and honestly that's better for us as all they do is whine about PvP and say it should be removed from the game. So giving us a place for this stuff away from their tears, complaints, and trolling is preferred.
The 'TREK BBS' has a MODERATORS ACTIONS Thread that's specific and heavily controlled, for discussion about the "Where's & Why's" of bending/breaking the forum rules.
Perhaps such a thread here, would help to alleviate some of the concerns and explain the rational behind Mod Actions.
If nothing else, it would be a good place to remind folks just what NOT to do if they wish to continue to post here and mostly keep that kind of discussion out of the rest of the Forums.
:cool:
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I think that part of the problem is that nobody truly knows what these boundaries are. Since moderation may not be discussed and moderated posts can't be looked up to see what it actually was the got moderated, one cannot learn from previous examples (unless oneself was the offender). I have often come back to threads where I knew I had read all posts in them and seen nothing particularly disturbing and yet suddenly there were moderation edits all over the place.
And then there are threads in the vein of "Evul KDF vs treehugging Feds" where I have no idea what they are supposed to be about and so I usually don't even read them. I only notice that it must have been a big issue when I suddenly see "they took our threads"-threads popping up all over the place after someone went wishstone on the population. It feels as if most moderation happens as a result of a reaction to previous moderation that was perceived as unnecessary.
I then often wish I could click a "I'm an adult, I can take it." button to read an uncensored version (well, minus obvious edits that are needed due to legal reasons, but I doubt that this a relevant number) and understand what happened.
Referring to the written rules doesn't really help because lots of things get moderated that are not in the rules. My favourite example: There is nothing in the rules against "I quit" threads. And yet they always get closed under the pretence that they automatically lead to flaming and trolling which simply isn't true - it depends on the context and target audience; in some subforums there will be endless "what a crybaby" responses, in others there will be goodbyes and solemn mourning of fallen comrades.
That's why I feel that it is so important that context is preserved (like Mini's thread that simply did not belong in Ten Forward). A more responsible moderation in the PVP forum would certainly be preferable to a social subforum, but considering that moderation is a black box whose contents must not be discussed, it's easier to ask for technical help in the form of a subforum.
We know the rules are a bit..grey. And sadly, yes it has to be in some areas. It is a discussion us mod's and managers have had a few times and we're looking at. Maybe we should just have a "discuss moderation/rule things" livestream/podcast/interview :P
The dev support is spotty at best (nothing against Bort, Hawk, Jheinig, Branflakes, or anyone else over the years, but it is true). I know it is mostly Bluegeek and yourself doing the forum mod thing, but there ain't exactly much support from you guys about stuff.
I mean hell, there ain't really even that many PvPers left even from the days when I began or when PvP Bootcamp still went on. I used to on average have a half to a full page of friends on at a time when I played STO, usually at few of them at least PvPers in matches.
I might've made a reference in my previous post, but I felt it was a truthful one, we really don't have anyone on 'our side'...besides each other, and that ain't exactly a unified family either.
Honestly, I am on the pvper's side. I WANT more pvp in the game. Hell I'd love open world pvp! (Yes yes I know go play eve yadda yadda). I was tickled pink when those convoy maps popped up and I was allowed to go into them even as a lowbie, start attacking the fed ships and have other captains come warping in to stop me. I LOVED THAT. I WANT that and have said it many times over. I get the whole "oh but you can be griefed" junk but honestly? I went in as a lt cmdr, got beaten down by people way higher than me but had TONS of fun doing it!
Again, I'm not against pvper's getting things. On the contrary, but when it comes down to forum stuff I have a different opinion hehe.
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
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Whatchu Wanna Ker'rat 4?
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
This is why we cant have nice things...
This keeps coming up. Where has anyone asked or even suggested that the proposed sub-forum would be a no holds barred area?
House of Beautiful Orions
PUNISH THE FEDs
thats why i want all this RP and 'pvp culture' stuff out of the main pvp section, and its own subforum, seems best for all.
Sorry but I'm 100% against adding a social forum just for pvp'ers.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Really shows how the mods and devs care about pvpers.
as i already said we need a pvp forum specific mod who is also a pvper.
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
it would be naive to expect such miracles from people who have no clue about actual gameplay of the game they design and program :cool:
1) I don't develop anything in STO or Cryptic.
2) I've been doing moderation of forums since cgi-bin forums were popular and before that BBS servers so I actually have an idea how to moderate and no, it doesn't matter if I'm a pvp'er (which I do pvp) or not. It's about the rules, it's about forum structure. We have 30 some odd forums, adding another to moderate would mean we'd have another area we'd have to go pay attention in, and it'd be really a duplicate of the ten forward area and RP forum.
I'm sorry that you feel that "Because I don't know pvp I have no authority to moderate/speak about forum policy in the pvp forum." But that's just completely false.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
I understand you are not the person who can make this decision. I understand BG is also in the same boat. What were asking for here is either 1) the person in charge of a decision like thisto be notified of this post by you or bg without your personal bias involved or 2) said person to come here and have an actual conversation with us.
Again no disrespect meant, pls no forum ban kkthnxchnk
Okay then if it's coming across as I don't want more work that's not it. Considering I'm also looking at helping keep the master bug list this week cleaned up I'm taking on things that aren't my responsibility but trying to help players :P
We can pass it along to Smirk as he'd be the one to make that final call.
You can be literal all you want. but Ten Forward is for off topic conversation or real life things (always has been and you know that deokkent :P), the RP forum is for obviously, RP. It doesn't matter if it's PvP RP or not, it's for all RP.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Meh, I need to find somebody to hide behind as I post this...but honestly then, why do we have as many sections to the forums as we already do? Like I posted earlier in response to bluegeek about folks discussing builds/mechanics...it's an all over the place sort of thing. Why isn't that a centralized thing?
You've got to know that forcing the PvP folks into Ten Forward for discussions that aren't "feedback or systems" isn't going to end well. And that's not a case of saying that the PvP folks are going to end up trolling all the threads there...it's a case of saying that the PvE folks are going to end up trolling all the PvP threads there. It's one of the reasons why so much that could be discussed elsewhere ends up being discussed in the PvP forums...cause one of the dime a dozen PvE trolls will come crying into the threads to get them closed otherwise.
There is another thread that's talking about forum reconstruction that you're more than welcome to chime in if you got a great idea on how the structure should go.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Its not about knowing PvP, it's about knowing the PvP community, and knowing why threads like the "punish the feds/evuls" are done... And only someone who's in the community can know, and unfortunately judging threads without knowing their meaning never leads to good results.
If you want to moderate the PvP forums drop in the OPVP channel, come to Ker'rat, be part of the community.
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
Unfortunately you're right...
we've broken all our bonds, but life kept going on, what a time, what a time it was..." - Clem Tholet
I nominate you for the nobel prize
If you got suggestions by all means; fire them off. But in the end, yes we have the right to an opinion as anyone else :P
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
well, branflacks was making the calls back during the last reorganization, and he unfortunately didn't trim near enough fat.
like, why does Federation Gameplay, Klingon Gameplay, Romulan Gameplay, Feature Episodes, Events and PvE Content and for that mater PvP Gameplay all exist at once? all thats needed is a pve gamplay, and pvp gamplay section. all the ship yard sections are pretty redundant too.
+1 to the idea.
He made the post knowing that many evenings he is one of the folks leading the 10v10s or Tyler Durden matches that get setup in game... or some open zone battle in kerrat. Or even just chatting in Opvp. He simply wanted folks to know he would return when his situation got fixed. Moving it to 10 forward... is technically the right call the way things are setup right now. No one is saying Askray WTH did you do that. We get 100% why you moved it. Its why Mancom suggested the sub forum. There those types of threads would be noticed by the people they are intended to be seen by.
Earlier I backed up BG only because I can surely see why he/she would be concerned considering some recent forum behaviour perhaps. The OP and most of us supporting him are not asking for a rPvP cage fight section. Simply a section where our slighly off topic (however still very much pvp related) topics can be moved to... or created in, so that they remain relevant. To be honest not having it and moving threads to sections 9000 km away only creates more work for you guys. As people who have there stuff moved simply create new threads, skirting rules and sometimes breaking them. Simply forcing you to take more action. There is no way it makes your lives easier imo. Such a subsection would very likely have minimal activity its true... however if a thread gets moved there at least its into a child section and still easily noticed and responded to.
So sad he died.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Release Notes
Dev Tracker
Ten Forward
Feature Episodes, Events and PvE Content
PvP Gameplay
Builds, Powers, and Game Mechanics
Duty Officer System and R&D
Fleet System and Holdings
Controls, User Interface, and the STO Gateway
The Art of Star Trek Online
C-Store, ZEN, and Promotions
The Foundry for Star Trek Online
Gameplay Bug Reports
PC, Network, and Other Technical Issues
Test servers would remain the same, each broken down into three sections.
Nope, there is no General Discussion...
@bluegeek there are two fallacies in you train of thought:
1)Why are PvP'ers special?
They are not. We all would love to here from D'deridex NPC's posting on the forums, but somehow they don't come out to post all that often. This game is 99% PvE, and if you look at all the different forms and sub-forums necessary to somewhat structure players conversations about things that don't talk back, adding a social sub-forum for PvP isn't really about making pvp special. We are just the only ones shooting at things that talk back. Which somehow has lead to a 4 year ongoing conversation, about ...you know stuff.
If we want to do certain things we have to communicate with real persons, and not ask in the foundry how something can be made with cryptics tools. Take DDIS ship build guide, as an example. It's a repost of Mav's guide from god knows when (S1,2?). NPC's don't have these kind of conversations with STO players, and although mav has moved on from the game. He pops onto the forums. PvP'ers aren't special, we just have different conversations when we talk from Player to Player. Archived Post (aka Faithborn) hasn't been seen in game in years. yet his guide is still part of the conversation. RIP S2 Borg Gates, you never said much, but now the silence is eternal.
2) Whats in it for PWE.
This game has fostered an active community for about 4 years now. For many reasons ppl drop in and out of the game. Yet, we still use these forums to communicate with each other. This in itself should make PWE want us here. What better marketing then a naturally grown community? If the pvp forums get to cluttered with non-feedback stuff, we'll just post our awesome fifa scores kicking hilbert's butt with my FC. ST. Pauli mod elsewhere. The fact that we come here is a good thing. Since these forumites played this game at one point, there is a chance they'll come back again. Providing the virtual lockerroom (to stick with the analogy) is good for PWE and STO. Its because of this grown community that a Civ 4 PvP campaign score, might be ever so slightly more often relevant to STO, then say random Tetris high scores. Having a bunch of people that have something to say to each other, is about the only thing that PR, Op goodies, and coupons can't buy you. I'm sure that someone at PWE realises that this kind of community building is good for business and the game.
Finally, hilbert might be wrong. Maybe the whole social stuff should stay where it is, but we actually need a feedback sub forum. One where we feel our feedback doesn't constantly fall on deaf ears. I can't believe that i m the only one that has given up on feedback all together. See my sig, there is a reason i can't be bothered to update it for 2014 anymore, and it's not a reversal of trends compared to 2010-2013.
In any case, like it or not, moving pvp community posts into 10 forward, effectively drowning them in a flood of post about other stuff, disrupts the community. If that is your goal, job accomplished. I fail to see how that can be in PWE interest.
Yes we have to follows the rules. What else is new, the sun will go up tomorrow, sky is still blue?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
I'm glad you got the reference, Askray.
Though my point still stands.
The dev support is spotty at best (nothing against Bort, Hawk, Jheinig, Branflakes, or anyone else over the years, but it is true). I know it is mostly Bluegeek and yourself doing the forum mod thing, but there ain't exactly much support from you guys about stuff.
I mean hell, there ain't really even that many PvPers left even from the days when I began or when PvP Bootcamp still went on. I used to on average have a half to a full page of friends on at a time when I played STO, usually at few of them at least PvPers in matches.
I might've made a reference in my previous post, but I felt it was a truthful one, we really don't have anyone on 'our side'...besides each other, and that ain't exactly a unified family either.
/slow clap
hear, hear! nothing to add, but may that those "flame-wars" generate interest to be part of em ingame. it attracts to pick a side, to go in there and be part of those glorious battles one can read about on the forums. and if only the people who are interested in pvp in the first place (most of those who are not probably not ever really gonna try it anyways). as for me, i visit kerrat much more often these days than i did before (only used to go there for the daily).
and sure, the rules, but on the other hand all that smack-talk generates interest as well as entertainment (as long as within the rules).
all good things!
And right about then some people decided to test the boundaries in this forum and I retracted my idea as unworkable.
In contrast to Askray, I'm not dead set against the idea of some kinds of 'social' threads staying put. Mainly I question whether or not an entire subforum is required. Would there be enough traffic in the form of legitimate posts to warrant such a thing? Or would it be one more place where heavy moderation is required?
I hate to even say it, but this might be a case where the PvP Community needs its' own Community-run board. Regardless of what some might think, I don't want to see you guys vanish from this place. I believe you're a valuable part of this community and STO would be the worse if you guys were to disengage.
One alternative idea that we might get support for is a Sticky conversation thread for the kind of special interest posts that Mancom talked about. Those would get posted there or nowhere, and smack talk would not be allowed in it.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
And then there are threads in the vein of "Evul KDF vs treehugging Feds" where I have no idea what they are supposed to be about and so I usually don't even read them. I only notice that it must have been a big issue when I suddenly see "they took our threads"-threads popping up all over the place after someone went wishstone on the population. It feels as if most moderation happens as a result of a reaction to previous moderation that was perceived as unnecessary.
I then often wish I could click a "I'm an adult, I can take it." button to read an uncensored version (well, minus obvious edits that are needed due to legal reasons, but I doubt that this a relevant number) and understand what happened.
Referring to the written rules doesn't really help because lots of things get moderated that are not in the rules. My favourite example: There is nothing in the rules against "I quit" threads. And yet they always get closed under the pretence that they automatically lead to flaming and trolling which simply isn't true - it depends on the context and target audience; in some subforums there will be endless "what a crybaby" responses, in others there will be goodbyes and solemn mourning of fallen comrades.
That's why I feel that it is so important that context is preserved (like Mini's thread that simply did not belong in Ten Forward). A more responsible moderation in the PVP forum would certainly be preferable to a social subforum, but considering that moderation is a black box whose contents must not be discussed, it's easier to ask for technical help in the form of a subforum.
They are asking for another forum to put this stuff in, just under the PvP forum...kind of like a "subforum," as mentioned in the title...
The average PvE hero (RP or not), stays away from the PvP forums, and honestly that's better for us as all they do is whine about PvP and say it should be removed from the game. So giving us a place for this stuff away from their tears, complaints, and trolling is preferred.
Perhaps such a thread here, would help to alleviate some of the concerns and explain the rational behind Mod Actions.
If nothing else, it would be a good place to remind folks just what NOT to do if they wish to continue to post here and mostly keep that kind of discussion out of the rest of the Forums.
:cool:
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Honestly, I am on the pvper's side. I WANT more pvp in the game. Hell I'd love open world pvp! (Yes yes I know go play eve yadda yadda). I was tickled pink when those convoy maps popped up and I was allowed to go into them even as a lowbie, start attacking the fed ships and have other captains come warping in to stop me. I LOVED THAT. I WANT that and have said it many times over. I get the whole "oh but you can be griefed" junk but honestly? I went in as a lt cmdr, got beaten down by people way higher than me but had TONS of fun doing it!
Again, I'm not against pvper's getting things. On the contrary, but when it comes down to forum stuff I have a different opinion hehe.
Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker.
Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113