Defiant needs an update.

riccardo171 · August 2014

I fail to see how this ship was one of the best escorts in game. Probably because I wasn't there back then.

However, it is probably one of the worst escorts out there currently. Overspecialized in tactical boffs, Fleet variant has a shield modifier comparable to BoPs. It gets brutally slaughtered nowadays unless you Cloak. Seriously when's the last time you saw a Defiant crippling a Tempest, Contortrix, Hunter?

I'd propose for it these changes. Adding a "set" that Cryptic likes to do. (Fleet variant wise):

Integrated Standard Cloak.
Hull: 33,000 (same)
Shield Modifier: 0,99 (upgraded to match MVAE and old Fleet Patrol Escort)
5/2 weapon layout (you see why below)
Commander tactical, Lieutenant Commander tactical, Lieutenant Engineering, Lieutenant Science, Ensign universal.
Crew: 50 (same)
Consoles: 5 tactical, 3 engineering, 2 science (same)
Turn rate: 18 (to compensate squishyness compared to AtB escorts, and bug's godlike turn)
Impulse Modifier: 0.20 (same)

5 FSMs, 20k FC cost.

The Retrofit would come with a Dual Quantum Torpedo Launcher. In the show you see many times the USS Defiant launching two quantums at a time, from the two distinctive hardpoints near the deflector. It would be a Fore-only item, only usable on Tactical Escorts.

The Sao Paulo instead will still come with the Quad Phasers cannons, Dmg x4. Or, if they feel like changing it with an acc mod, do the same for Quad Plasma and Disruptors.

Slotting both items on the ship's fore slots upgrades the innate cloak to Battle Cloak. (However, doing so forces you to carry a not-so-great cannon and use torpedoes, even if with an added twist).

What do you think?

In its current state can Proton vape pretty well, but that's about it.

orangeitis · August 2014

Can you at least wait to see what the tier 6 Tactical Escort is like first? :<

riccardo171 · August 2014

orangeitis wrote: »

Can you at least wait to see what the tier 6 Tactical Escort is like first? :<

No one said however what the T6 Defiant is, or if we will ever see one. However, they might consider applying some of these changes to it.

orangeitis · August 2014

No one said it directly, but a reasonable conclusion from all the hints is that all of our ships will have the potential to be upgraded with tier 6 capabilities. It's almost a guarantee.

Also, didn't the Defiant have an integrated cloak back in the day?

riccardo171 · August 2014

AFAIK, it always had the cloaking device.

cerritourug · August 2014

All canon-iconic ships need an update (Galaxy, Sove, Def, Intrepid, Akira, Nebula, etc). Just go to an arena and 90% of the ships are eather Romulans or lockboxs.

But the fact that canon-iconic ships can be good is not good for Cryptic.. who is going to waste money on a horrible cryptic ship if you can fly a usefull Galaxy and kick TRIBBLE with it?

stevehale · August 2014

I think the cloaking device was built in originally. Later they made it a console and gave it another console slot. I like it as an optional console. What they need to do is convert all cloak to battle cloak.

Regular cloak is an outdated mechanic.

Unknown · August 2014

This content has been removed.

vegie0 · August 2014

Ok, as for the cloaking device. From a "Star Trek" point of view there was only 1 Defiant Class ship with a cloaking device. The actual Defiant. It was destroyed. Secondly there were lots of Defiant class ships seen in the series. Even in voyager 1 made an appearance. But from this it was still a loaned cloaking device. One can reasonably assume that the defiant when she was destroyed never cloaked again. Probably due to the Romulans not replacing it. The Federation is also very slow to join the cloaking game. The KDF and Federation are no longer sharing technology as there were during TNG. So chances are that any Federation cloaking device would be primitive and bulky, much like the TOS Romulan cloak.

Now for the remaining changes. 5 weapons up front is only balanced by a slow turn rate. So that change along with buffing her turn rate is a it silly. This would make a super escort that would slaughter bug ships. As for changing the buff layout. The ensign I thought was tactical... you are also making her tank better. Then the shield modifier... it just seems like you are trying to make the Defiant into a one size fits all super ship. The reason for the other ships performing the way they do is to prevent this. No one ship is ment to be clearly superior to the others. Because people like me would lose interest in building designs on strange ships. You are playing into the power creep. I still see Defiant getting kills in PVP. Perhaps you should evaluate if you are sure those changes are balanced with other ships of the same class.

riccardo171 · August 2014

starwrathforever wrote: »

I agree with one of the best Fed I know, Riccardo, because the evul Klinguns wanna have a buff for their Bop!:mad:
Well, then we Feds wanna play again with our beloved Defiant by now absolutely obsolete!
Buff also the Defiant, Cryptic, and enough with all these lockbox ships too powerful.
The real Star Trek fans highly demand a general strong buff for all the canonic KDF and UFP vessels and you know we'll say to you "shut up and take my money"!
And Stevehale, one of the most important players of all times, is right!
We Feds want also the battle cloak...integrated, of course...thanks in advance...:cool:

Someday I'll get tired of using Proton barrage solely on that ship

vegie0 wrote: »

Ok, as for the cloaking device. From a "Star Trek" point of view there was only 1 Defiant Class ship with a cloaking device. The actual Defiant. It was destroyed. Secondly there were lots of Defiant class ships seen in the series. Even in voyager 1 made an appearance. But from this it was still a loaned cloaking device. One can reasonably assume that the defiant when she was destroyed never cloaked again. Probably due to the Romulans not replacing it. The Federation is also very slow to join the cloaking game. The KDF and Federation are no longer sharing technology as there were during TNG. So chances are that any Federation cloaking device would be primitive and bulky, much like the TOS Romulan cloak.

Now for the remaining changes. 5 weapons up front is only balanced by a slow turn rate. So that change along with buffing her turn rate is a it silly. This would make a super escort that would slaughter bug ships. As for changing the buff layout. The ensign I thought was tactical... you are also making her tank better. Then the shield modifier... it just seems like you are trying to make the Defiant into a one size fits all super ship. The reason for the other ships performing the way they do is to prevent this. No one ship is ment to be clearly superior to the others. Because people like me would lose interest in building designs on strange ships. You are playing into the power creep. I still see Defiant getting kills in PVP. Perhaps you should evaluate if you are sure those changes are balanced with other ships of the same class.

From a STO's lore standpoint, the Cloaking Device was allowed on the Defiant, Galaxy-X and Avenger after the destruction of Romulus.

5 weapons front is the loadout the Contortrix has, and compared to the stats I proposed, would be as fast as it (ie impulse modifier), more tanky (1.1 SM is gawd), more flexible being able to run full AtB builds.

the Defiant would compensate with the innate ability to Cloak itself, but to have BC you are forced to carry a torpedo and a quad cannon, leaving only 3 slots for what you want to bear on the ship.
Bug has the extreme turn rate, 20, and is uber fast. Just these two make up for any possible lack.

vegie0 · August 2014

You are still forgetting the underline point. Power creep.... if the Defiant is made into a new super damage ship... one that can cloak non the less. Then the defiant will be all you see. Because why fly a bug when a defiant is just gonna vape you in a few seconds. Just consider how you are leaving all other federation escorts in the dust. The defiant would just be too heavy in forward DPS, and way too quick to turn with it. Lock box ships have always been beastly, but then again they have to sell them. Just consider that making the Defiant into a super escort might work great for you, but for science captains and engineers, it would be like giving every player access to the bug ships making it very hard to compete.

tfomega · August 2014

riccardo171 wrote: »

OP snip.....[/COLOR]

Which brings up the next request... the b'rel. The token 10% hull they gave it still makes it obsolete. it is still missing a boff, weapon slot, shields, and shield modifier upgrades. I stopped using my favorite ship because I had to embrace the power creep.

Even with the T6 upgrades, it will still be behind all the upgrades for the power creep ships... i.e. same boat as it is in now.

In case any of you "newer devs" don't know.... The b'rel and other bops took a penalty very early on because of the enhanced battle cloak being introduced. In order to get the enhanced battle cloak (i.e. cloak during battle), the b'rel and bops had to give up shields, hull, boff slot, and weapon slot because it was OP at the time. That is no longer the case!!!!!

Given what you are releasing these days (t'varo cough) which has a battle cloak and better stats.. the KDF ships need their TRIBBLE back.

I am tried of trying to keep up with the power creep by equipping 4 neutroniums and 3 field gens just to try and stay alive for a little while longer and not being able to use any universal consoles.

This is all out of hand!

sazhdapec · August 2014

Why try to make the Defiant like other top ships? Imho it should be more unique and it's reasonable to amplify its strengths and weaknesses. It should have 2 cmdr tac, lt eng, lt sci boff slots, same 4/3 weapons setup, same consoles setup, 30k hull/0.9 shield, turn 19 and impulse modifier up to 0.23. It's gonna be squishy but it will have more potential in good hands.

neo1nx · August 2014

riccardo171 wrote: »

AFAIK, it always had the cloaking device.

like the galaxy x, the cloack of the defiant was integrated before season 5, but both ship only got 8 console slot.
the galaxy got it 3nd tactical console slot when his cloack became a console, i don't remember what console slot got the defiant tho.

anyway i wouldn't mind that these cloack become integrated again, exept for the avenger.

riccardo171 · August 2014

vegie0 wrote: »

You are still forgetting the underline point. Power creep.... if the Defiant is made into a new super damage ship... one that can cloak non the less. Then the defiant will be all you see. Because why fly a bug when a defiant is just gonna vape you in a few seconds. Just consider how you are leaving all other federation escorts in the dust. The defiant would just be too heavy in forward DPS, and way too quick to turn with it. Lock box ships have always been beastly, but then again they have to sell them. Just consider that making the Defiant into a super escort might work great for you, but for science captains and engineers, it would be like giving every player access to the bug ships making it very hard to compete.

The fact of being strictly for tacs such ship is a consequence. Even if sciscorts are quite nasty. But they did something like this already, with the Tempest. The only escort to have two Ltcmdr stations, one of them universal, a console that nukes every living thing, with higher shield modifier and hull strength than existing escorts. I feel 5 fore would be balanced, considering it's going to bear 3 engineering boff abilities, at most. The bug somewhat... trades the fifth weapon slots to be able to point its guns to a target extremely more often than other ships do.

Or maybe turn Cloaking Device console in Battle Cloak Device, add 0,99 SM, add set with quad cannon that gives +1 turn rate, +X Energy Weapons & Projectile Specialization skills named "Enhanced Tactical Systems". Like what the Galaxy set does. Keep 4/3 layout. Most importantly, turn the frigging ensign in universal.

... hey it sounds cool. lol

tfomega wrote: »

Which brings up the next request... the b'rel. The token 10% hull they gave it still makes it obsolete. it is still missing a boff, weapon slot, shields, and shield modifier upgrades. I stopped using my favorite ship because I had to embrace the power creep.

Even with the T6 upgrades, it will still be behind all the upgrades for the power creep ships... i.e. same boat as it is in now.

In case any of you "newer devs" don't know.... The b'rel and other bops took a penalty very early on because of the enhanced battle cloak being introduced. In order to get the enhanced battle cloak (i.e. cloak during battle), the b'rel and bops had to give up shields, hull, boff slot, and weapon slot because it was OP at the time. That is no longer the case!!!!!

Given what you are releasing these days (t'varo cough) which has a battle cloak and better stats.. the KDF ships need their TRIBBLE back.

I am tried of trying to keep up with the power creep by equipping 4 neutroniums and 3 field gens just to try and stay alive for a little while longer and not being able to use any universal consoles.

This is all out of hand!

I agree BoPs need a buff, buf EBC is just for two ships. EBC is like a BC, with the added bonus of shooting torpedoes and using every ability from cloak. More defense innate, maybe the 12th boff slot you wish

sazhdapec wrote: »

Why try to make the Defiant like other top ships? Imho it should be more unique and it's reasonable to amplify its strengths and weaknesses. It should have 2 cmdr tac, lt eng, lt sci boff slots, same 4/3 weapons setup, same consoles setup, 30k hull/0.9 shield, turn 19 and impulse modifier up to 0.23. It's gonna be squishy but it will have more potential in good hands.

Kumari does something like this already. And we know how laughably bad it is in PvP with zero healing potential, lol.

sazhdapec · August 2014

riccardo171 wrote: »

Kumari does something like this already. And we know how laughably bad it is in PvP with zero healing potential, lol.

No, Kumari is slow (one of the slowest endgame escorts in game) and has stupid combination of boffs and consoles (especially the tac one).

corelogik · August 2014

riccardo171 wrote: »

I fail to see how this ship was one of the best escorts in game. Probably because I wasn't there back then.

However, it is probably one of the worst escorts out there currently. Overspecialized in tactical boffs, Fleet variant has a shield modifier comparable to BoPs. It gets brutally slaughtered nowadays unless you Cloak. Seriously when's the last time you saw a Defiant crippling a Tempest, Contortrix, Hunter?

I'd propose for it these changes. Adding a "set" that Cryptic likes to do. (Fleet variant wise):

Integrated Standard Cloak.
Hull: 33,000 (same)
Shield Modifier: 0,99 (upgraded to match MVAE and old Fleet Patrol Escort)
5/2 weapon layout (you see why below)
Commander tactical, Lieutenant Commander tactical, Lieutenant Engineering, Lieutenant Science, Ensign universal.
Crew: 50 (same)
Consoles: 5 tactical, 3 engineering, 2 science (same)
Turn rate: 18 (to compensate squishyness compared to AtB escorts, and bug's godlike turn)
Impulse Modifier: 0.20 (same)

5 FSMs, 20k FC cost.

The Retrofit would come with a Dual Quantum Torpedo Launcher. In the show you see many times the USS Defiant launching two quantums at a time, from the two distinctive hardpoints near the deflector. It would be a Fore-only item, only usable on Tactical Escorts.

The Sao Paulo instead will still come with the Quad Phasers cannons, Dmg x4. Or, if they feel like changing it with an acc mod, do the same for Quad Plasma and Disruptors.

Slotting both items on the ship's fore slots upgrades the innate cloak to Battle Cloak. (However, doing so forces you to carry a not-so-great cannon and use torpedoes, even if with an added twist).

What do you think?

In its current state can Proton vape pretty well, but that's about it.

The only thing I really want on my Defiant is a built in cloak (normal or battle, battle preferred, but as long as it's built in, I'm good) and a uni Boff slot even if its only an Ens. I'm good with the rest of it as is and I definitely DO NOT want a 5/2 layout. I like my 3 rear weapon slots and they are just fine tyvm.

vegie0 · August 2014

The Defiant has fallen behind with a lot of the other Federation ships of old. Used to just about any VA ship could walk into an arena and hold its own. The Galaxy family of ships being the rare exception. Used to, the Nebula was the Healer, the Defiant was the Escort, and the Sovereign was the Cruiser. Now its more leaned to the Fleet ships. Which granted left behind a lot of ships. The Defiant, Intrepid, Galaxy, Nebula, Prometheus, Nova, Galaxy Dreadnought, Sovereign, and even the new "Flag Ship" the Oddy are all left behind compaired to newer more buffed up ships. This is a result of the power creep. Now tier 6 to tier 7 ships are coming out. Tier 7 being if you view the new lock box extravaganza or the Tempest as a T6. But does this mean that the current Defiant is a bad ship? No, it can still do a lot of things, just it cant take a Tempest on in a 1v1. Nor can it take a bug ship. But even in direct conversions, the Tempest is what 2500 zen, the Bug would probably be closer to 30,000 zen, and the Defiant is still a measely 2000 zen. Par none i agree the Tempest is an OP monster. But the Defiant doesnt need to be power creeped to match it or beat it. With a cloak, it could easily beat it.

In short, expect a T6 Defiant soon, that will probably have some means added to it to make it compete with the Tempest. If not, then yes, when T6 ships arrive the Defiant will need things done to make it competetive. Lets wait and see if we need to do anything at all.

shadowwraith77 · August 2014

stevehale wrote: »

I think the cloaking device was built in originally. Later they made it a console and gave it another console slot. I like it as an optional console. What they need to do is convert all cloak to battle cloak.

Regular cloak is an outdated mechanic.

Agreed, all cloaks should be integrated, and all cloaks, should be able to be activated while in battle.

As to how much, if any benefit they get beyond this, is something left to be made unique to each faction!

Unknown · August 2014

This content has been removed.

voporak · August 2014

riccardo171 wrote: »

I fail to see how this ship was one of the best escorts in game. Probably because I wasn't there back then.

However, it is probably one of the worst escorts out there currently. Overspecialized in tactical boffs, Fleet variant has a shield modifier comparable to BoPs. It gets brutally slaughtered nowadays unless you Cloak. Seriously when's the last time you saw a Defiant crippling a Tempest, Contortrix, Hunter?

-snip-

In its current state can Proton vape pretty well, but that's about it.

You silly, silly, ignorant little PvPer ... How much have you to learn!

I can get behind the changes, so that it is back to being fully competitive with other modern escorts - not because it is useless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iprVr9Nm1hA

snoge00f · August 2014

Nerf Defiants, buff BoPs.

riccardo171 · August 2014

voporak wrote: »

You silly, silly, ignorant little PvPer ... How much have you to learn!

I can get behind the changes, so that it is back to being fully competitive with other modern escorts - not because it is useless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iprVr9Nm1hA

[Combat (Self)] Your Proton Barrage deals 72344 (51376) Proton(Critical) to [censored].

From my Defiant. And it's not even the best shot I had. Please, I know how to vape with it, but there are people who'd like to dogfight as well. Actually, the last thing I need is a lesson on the ship, it's the first and oldest Fleet ship I had.

riccardo171 · August 2014

deokkent wrote: »

Hahaha There is nothing more pitiful than Starfleet trying to emulate warriors of the klingon warriors. I mean seriously after this, you should just give up and get back to your peaceful fail diplomacy. Also, blow up while you are at it.

Hear me scums, the gods of the PWE continuum could create a godmode for the defiant and starfleet could always manage to blow it up... somehow.

Klingon destroyer warships are the ones in need of blessing from the gods, fit for real warriors in service for the Klingon EMPIRE.

yIchu'

Just wait until you see a Defiant locking on your BoP and firing a Fully buffed Proton Barrage. Then the lulz... It took down a Recluse. :P

voporak · August 2014

riccardo171 wrote: »

[Combat (Self)] Your Proton Barrage deals 72344 (51376) Proton(Critical) to [censored].

From my Defiant. And it's not even the best shot I had. Please, I know how to vape with it, but there are people who'd like to dogfight as well. Actually, the last thing I need is a lesson on the ship, it's the first and oldest Fleet ship I had.

Then why did you say it was the worst escort out there, and say it's not good for anything but proton barrage?

Are you not aware that worse ships exist?

riccardo171 · August 2014

voporak wrote: »

Then why did you say it was the worst escort out there, and say it's not good for anything but proton barrage?

Are you not aware that worse ships exist?

I don't think I can classify the Defiant anymore as escort, when all it does is hit and run. This should be warbirds and BoP duty, mainly. What I'm suggesting is giving it a bit more flexibility and self-sustainability to match the current escorts and be able to pu tup a decent fight, instead of being brutally slaughtered on sight.

voporak · August 2014

riccardo171 wrote: »

I don't think I can classify the Defiant anymore as escort, when all it does is hit and run. This should be warbirds and BoP duty, mainly. What I'm suggesting is giving it a bit more flexibility and self-sustainability to match the current escorts and be able to pu tup a decent fight, instead of being brutally slaughtered on sight.

And I support that.

captainf00k · August 2014

Integrated Standard Cloak.
-Nah; don't you remember? Every time they took the Defiant out of space dock Warf had to go grab the disgruntled Romulan chick and her cloak...
Hull: 33,000 (same)
-OK
Shield Modifier: 0,99 (upgraded to match MVAE and old
Fleet Patrol Escort)
-OK
5/2 weapon layout (you see why below)
-w/e
Commander tactical, Lieutenant Commander tactical,
Lieutenant Engineering, Lieutenant Science, Ensign
universal.
-Cmd. tac., Ltc. tac., Lt. eng. Lt. eng. (or uni.), Ens. sci. It was a very light sci ability ship. In fact, the one big sci mission the Defiant went on was total fail. The ship got commandeered by the JemHadar. They had to use their tac and engineering skills to get out of the problem.
Crew: 50 (same)
-w/e
Consoles: 5 tactical, 3 engineering, 2 science (same)
-4 eng. it was a heavy eng ship.
Turn rate: 18 (to compensate squishyness compared to AtB
escorts, and bug's godlike turn)
-OK
Impulse Modifier: 0.20 (same)
-OK
5 FSMs, 20k FC cost.
-8 FSMs, 100k FC cost. 4 FSM if you own the retro and Sao Paolo. Make it worth something so that perhaps it is worth it for them to make it useful.

voporak · August 2014

captainf00k wrote: »

Consoles: 5 tactical, 3 engineering, 2 science (same)
-4 eng. it was a heavy eng ship.

Wut lol? The Defiant was a set of guns strapped to an engine. It was the first Federation warship. That's why its console layout is as it is right now.

dova25 · August 2014

riccardo171 wrote: »

I don't think I can classify the Defiant anymore as escort, when all it does is hit and run. This should be warbirds and BoP duty, mainly. What I'm suggesting is giving it a bit more flexibility and self-sustainability to match the current escorts and be able to pu tup a decent fight, instead of being brutally slaughtered on sight.

Defiant was and still is the best "raptor" in game so to speak.Actually it is much better than any kdf raptor. I agree with OP that if it is compared to romulan ships it is underpowered but what ship it is not so compared to romulan ships ?

Anyway there was shown a picture of a future T6 Defiant (use search it is somewhere on forum too ) so Federation will have a new super OP escort in octomber while Kdf will get a T6 raptor.
My hope is that this time it will be at least as good as the new T6 federation escort will be and here i specifically think at impulse mod,inertia,shield mod,hull and crew number.

Defiant needs an update.

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