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I am dismayed.
treaen
Member Posts: 43 Arc User
So for a while now, I have been playing with the Foundry, trying to learn my way around it so that I can create some content there. I'm really, really excited about the story I have to tell and really, really excited about having the opportunity to make it and have people play it. I have played around for long enough now to understand how the tools work, though I haven't published anything. And I'm ready to go.
I started work several days ago. It's planned to be a series of missions that take place in and around this Federation base. The base is pretty important to the story, so I want it to be right. I want it to be perfect--well, as perfect as I can make it given some of the limitations of the tools in the Foundry. At any rate, I did a hand-drawn map that I proceeded to start translating. I've been working on it for about five days and I'm only about 15% finished. As I say, it's huge and hugely important to this story that I am trying to tell. So I'm taking my time.
Last night, I got a message saying that I placed too many assets. And hence my dismay.
I know that I now have to find a way around this rather irritating hiccup to make this map happen. I'm probably going to have to turn what was supposed to be a pretty big base all on one level into several different maps and link them with turbolifts or something like that. But I'm really irritated that I even have to.
I know that when the Foundry launched, it was supposed to be something that players could use to make up their own little battles. It wasn't supposed to be complicated or spectacular. It was just supposed to be fun and functional. But the evolution of what people have done with the Foundry and how the Devs have pushed people to use it for the development of really interesting and super-playable content has far outpaced the evolution of the Foundry and its abilities.
Let me be really clear here. I pay for the game so that I can use the Foundry. I love world building games. I am a writer by trade. I don't care at all about all the things you can acquire by paying to play. And, from my time playing as a FTP member, I can attest to the fact that there's not a content difference. I pay to use the Foundry. And I'm so incredibly frustrated and upset that I'm paying for something that has such serious limitations. Especially when the missions coming out of the Foundry are growing so exponentially.
I, like everyone else, would not balk at the idea of having more assets (especially walls and smaller building blocks of various shapes and doors that are just the door that you can place on a wall and have function inside that wall, instead of needing to either build a wall around it or use one of the preexisting wall-doors that doesn't have a matching wall anywhere in the Foundry.) But probably more than that, I want this cap on the number of things removed. Clearly, there are maps that exist with far, far more than 500 objects on them.
And if you don't believe me when I say that this is a paltry number, take this example. I created a wall unit last night that is 37 individual pieces, plus two banners hanging on it. That may sound ridiculous, but I can assure you that it's really beautiful and it's the kind of thing that I think certain other Foundry authors probably have and would take the time to do. I have this wall placed twice on my map. I really do think it's beautiful. But, for the two walls, that's 74 individual assets. Or about 15% of my overall limit.
There are a couple ways of fixing this. And I think that both of them should be implemented. The first is to get rid of the cap. Or at least to very significantly increase it--I'm talking by a couple orders of magnitude here. If you, dear Devs, are worried about storage space, I think it would be pretty easy to assume that most Foundry authors would not actually be the kind of person who would spend four or five hours building one wall. The second is to give us the ability to merge assets into a single thing. For instance, my walls with 37 pieces each could become one piece. I am in love with the way it looks. I spent a ton of time on it. I'm never going to take it apart and move individual pieces off somewhere else. So let me combine it into a single piece. Another example: tables and chairs. I know that there are existing assets that have tables and chairs combined. But I like the new ESD chairs that you can sit on, so I put them around a table. That's five assets that could be one. The list could go on and on. And does.
I know that the percentage of people who use the Foundry to create is very small. I know that it's hard to monetize the Foundry. And I know that these two things put together mean that the Foundry has sort of become the TRIBBLE child. We always hear about new things coming to the Foundry that would improve its functionality, but never seem to get anything more than a bunch of props and costume pieces every now and then. And the thing that makes me so upset about all of that is that using the Foundry to create content has been trumpeted by the Devs enormously. I get why. We all get why. But something has got to give here. The missions coming out and getting the official sanction are getting more and more complex. People are finding ways to build some really remarkable stuff. But if, as you guys say, you want this content to be able to be something that you can elevate to "official game content," then you've got to spend some time improving the functionality of the Foundry and removing the limitations.
And also, if this latest update is actually going to work properly (I'm talking about the one that allows us to build our "home"), then you better believe that anyone who takes on this project is going to want to do more than just a little map with 500 assets. I mean, as it stands now, you could use that entire budget up just making the interior walls and the exterior bulkheads of one deck of your ship. And then what? It's just a ghost ship? You put people in there wandering around with nothing to interact with? No. This needs to be better. Please and thank you.
I started work several days ago. It's planned to be a series of missions that take place in and around this Federation base. The base is pretty important to the story, so I want it to be right. I want it to be perfect--well, as perfect as I can make it given some of the limitations of the tools in the Foundry. At any rate, I did a hand-drawn map that I proceeded to start translating. I've been working on it for about five days and I'm only about 15% finished. As I say, it's huge and hugely important to this story that I am trying to tell. So I'm taking my time.
Last night, I got a message saying that I placed too many assets. And hence my dismay.
I know that I now have to find a way around this rather irritating hiccup to make this map happen. I'm probably going to have to turn what was supposed to be a pretty big base all on one level into several different maps and link them with turbolifts or something like that. But I'm really irritated that I even have to.
I know that when the Foundry launched, it was supposed to be something that players could use to make up their own little battles. It wasn't supposed to be complicated or spectacular. It was just supposed to be fun and functional. But the evolution of what people have done with the Foundry and how the Devs have pushed people to use it for the development of really interesting and super-playable content has far outpaced the evolution of the Foundry and its abilities.
Let me be really clear here. I pay for the game so that I can use the Foundry. I love world building games. I am a writer by trade. I don't care at all about all the things you can acquire by paying to play. And, from my time playing as a FTP member, I can attest to the fact that there's not a content difference. I pay to use the Foundry. And I'm so incredibly frustrated and upset that I'm paying for something that has such serious limitations. Especially when the missions coming out of the Foundry are growing so exponentially.
I, like everyone else, would not balk at the idea of having more assets (especially walls and smaller building blocks of various shapes and doors that are just the door that you can place on a wall and have function inside that wall, instead of needing to either build a wall around it or use one of the preexisting wall-doors that doesn't have a matching wall anywhere in the Foundry.) But probably more than that, I want this cap on the number of things removed. Clearly, there are maps that exist with far, far more than 500 objects on them.
And if you don't believe me when I say that this is a paltry number, take this example. I created a wall unit last night that is 37 individual pieces, plus two banners hanging on it. That may sound ridiculous, but I can assure you that it's really beautiful and it's the kind of thing that I think certain other Foundry authors probably have and would take the time to do. I have this wall placed twice on my map. I really do think it's beautiful. But, for the two walls, that's 74 individual assets. Or about 15% of my overall limit.
There are a couple ways of fixing this. And I think that both of them should be implemented. The first is to get rid of the cap. Or at least to very significantly increase it--I'm talking by a couple orders of magnitude here. If you, dear Devs, are worried about storage space, I think it would be pretty easy to assume that most Foundry authors would not actually be the kind of person who would spend four or five hours building one wall. The second is to give us the ability to merge assets into a single thing. For instance, my walls with 37 pieces each could become one piece. I am in love with the way it looks. I spent a ton of time on it. I'm never going to take it apart and move individual pieces off somewhere else. So let me combine it into a single piece. Another example: tables and chairs. I know that there are existing assets that have tables and chairs combined. But I like the new ESD chairs that you can sit on, so I put them around a table. That's five assets that could be one. The list could go on and on. And does.
I know that the percentage of people who use the Foundry to create is very small. I know that it's hard to monetize the Foundry. And I know that these two things put together mean that the Foundry has sort of become the TRIBBLE child. We always hear about new things coming to the Foundry that would improve its functionality, but never seem to get anything more than a bunch of props and costume pieces every now and then. And the thing that makes me so upset about all of that is that using the Foundry to create content has been trumpeted by the Devs enormously. I get why. We all get why. But something has got to give here. The missions coming out and getting the official sanction are getting more and more complex. People are finding ways to build some really remarkable stuff. But if, as you guys say, you want this content to be able to be something that you can elevate to "official game content," then you've got to spend some time improving the functionality of the Foundry and removing the limitations.
And also, if this latest update is actually going to work properly (I'm talking about the one that allows us to build our "home"), then you better believe that anyone who takes on this project is going to want to do more than just a little map with 500 assets. I mean, as it stands now, you could use that entire budget up just making the interior walls and the exterior bulkheads of one deck of your ship. And then what? It's just a ghost ship? You put people in there wandering around with nothing to interact with? No. This needs to be better. Please and thank you.
Post edited by treaen on
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Comments
The obvious excuse of the limitations is to keep things low key for people with poor rigs. An understandable reason, but quite the bane for yourself it seems.
Only thing I can think of is to have doors to new maps that are really just extensions of the map your trying to pull off. Therefore no need for turbos and the doors still give the sense of feeling that your on the same level.
I wish you well in your endeavors and I have a request...can you post a picture of the wall?
Cheers
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
The map limit is 15 maps per project
The building limit for exterior maps is 60 (or possibly 65, I can't remember)
The detail object limit per map is 450
The costume limit per project is 50
There are hundreds of thousands of missions in the database. Limits are acceptable and likely necessary. The Foundry authors who stick around and are successful are the ones who learn to adapt to the limits.
There are always ways to trim objects, make two maps where you originally wanted to make one, etc.
As you are a writer then you are very aware that most authors, especially those who work to convert their stories into visual media, are never truly satisfied with the conversion or the tools they have access to. Especially when you talk about science fiction. Consider it a way to really flex your creativity. Do some creative things and wait eagerly for those new tools to become available to update your stories.
Take TOS for example, we certainly aren't Star Trek fans because TOS was such a masterpiece of visual precision...make due with what you have and their are enough tools in the Foundry to make some really good stories. That's the mark of a good story teller.
edit: i remember watching a behind the scenes of Star Wars Episode II about a scene where Anakin and Obi Wan were chasing an assassin through Coruscant. Instead of having them running in a straight line they had the assassin and Anakin running in a circle through a crowd with the camera in the middle just spinning in place. Good visuals are every bit as much a magic trick as they are precise.
Honestly, from what your describing, you're biting off way more than you can chew. Excessive detail isnt the answer. Split it into different maps and make each map important. To quote Odo "just keeping to the basics, Major."
The Foundry has limitations on it. You have to accept that. And you have additional ones in the EULA. So what you can with the tools at hand.
The questions I want you to ask while your making this map are the following:
1) Do I really need all this detail?
2) How is this going to benefit my story?
3) How much of this is just for show and most people won't even notice?
4) How much of this is going to be wasted space?
And Im going to say this - 37 piece walls are just straight up wasteful. Do you really think people are going to notice that? Think about your walls in real life. You think "Wall" right? When the contractor has built a frame, insulation, drywall, spackle and paint. Well, in the game, dont think like that. Build a wall, one piece, with some minor details at best and move on.
Also, dont bother with exterior bulkhead of your ship. I know of no author who does that.
TRIBBLE Hydra! Hail Janeway!
It used to be like 250. Yes, it can be irritating. One custom room can require 100 assets if I'm really building walls with console pieces, etc.
What is more amazing is that invisible objects count.
I do admit that it is excessive to build a wall with 37 individual parts. It would not have been my first choice. In fact, I went through three or four iterations before I decided to build something from scratch. Therein is found the constant "we want more wall options" gripe that's been around forever. By the way, it's not just about wanting more options. It's about needing more ways to be able to string them together well. But that's not my point.
My point is that there is a way out there to have a system that allows for better customization without overloading the computers of the people playing the game. I'm a writer, not a programmer. I don't know what the answer is or how to build the code. But I am savvy enough to identify weaknesses in it. The way the object cap works is one of them. Having to produce a unique item for every section of wall is another. (Why not just be able to choose a wall skin and draw a box of whatever size you want it to be? It pops up on screen as one item, instead of four or far, far more. And all the walls look good. Maybe another solution is to count structural items like walls and doors separately from props. They are, afterall, different and more numerous.
I've figured out a way to deal with the problem in my work and have come to terms with it. But it would surely be nice to not have to worry about any of it and spend my time working on the story.
**And just as a post script/side note: I didn't mean to imply that I build (or want to build) a super structure and then put rooms with four walls on the inside of it. I wasn't being clear. I'm talking about basically building a super structure and dividing the internal space into rooms. It would all be much much easier if walls didn't have to be individual pieces. Ideally, you'd be able to do walls like in a drafting or interior design program, and then throw window and door callouts on each wall. Have wall pieces for a box, straight line, full circle, and half circle. Drag it around like in Paint. Pick your skin. Add doors and windows. Voila. Move on with your day.
Also, just because I don't know how to fit this in with the rest, it's going here. The way that state changes work insofar as locking and unlocking doors is concerned takes up space that could probably be used more efficiently. Maybe instead of having to place two walls, one on top of the other, the locking mechanism could be incorporated into the door itself. Of course, that would require doors to be placeable on any old wall.
Was the result as detailed as I would have liked? No. But it does effectively convey the story and it still impressive to see on the merits of it's design.
Speaking of which, how's MIDAS Part 2 coming, anyway?
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/