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The real reasons to keep a2b the way it is
rynotheking14
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
First off, sorry if a lot of these viewpoints have been expressed in replies to the numerous "OMG NERFFFFF A2B" threads, but I felt it was a requirement to post at least one decent counter thread to all the madness.
Here are some reasons why the A2B skill and doff is a vital part of the game in PvP. Please note that everytime I refer to A2B, I am talking about both the skill and the doff.
As for PvE, you are all fighting against the same weak NPCs that take 2 seconds to kill, so why does it matter anyways? In PvE, if you think A2B is overpowered, isn't that a good thing because with that same logic won't you get your grind done faster? On a side note, for PvE, the highest DPS and tankiest builds are NOT A2B anyways, so I am failing to see the problem here...
Below are various reasons why the A2B skill and doff should not be nerfed. Please note that these are not listed in any particular order except the order in which I thought of them.
1. A2B Provides More Playstyle Options for a Ship
Being able to make a very tanky ship put out more DPS is one of the best features of A2B. Before A2B, if a ship had limited tactical slots, forget about doing any kind of good damage whatsoever. Limted tactical slots mean't that you had room for Tactical Team, (a requirement in PvP) and maybe 1 or 2 other tactical abilities. Due to the lack of tactical slots on MANY ships, you are unable to slot duplicate copies of most tactical abilities making A2B the only viable solution. Anyone who has played PvP knows that a beam cruiser that isn't doing enough damage or putting out enough heals is pretty much useless. So my question to all the naysayers is this. Do you want to return to the era of escorts online where only pure escorts and healers are viable?
2. A2B is an easy to use cost effective alternative to more expensive builds
Last I checked on the exchange, A2B doffs were around 10 million EC. While expensive for a casual player to begin PvP, this is much better than having to buy Attack Pattern Doffs which cost a fortune, or have the best possible gear to be even remotely competitive. Less experienced players may also have difficulty creating more advanced builds due to lack of game knowledge. Since A2B is well advertised (Thanks Haters!) and is viable (not optimal) on many ships, new PvPers can at least stand a chance in a good A2B build at either surviving or doing enough DPS to be competitive against a seasoned veteran. Don't we want more people to PvP and not get scared by that first game where they die 15 times in 16 seconds?
3. Why stop at nerfing A2B? EVERYTHING MUST BE NERFED!!!
What is so special about A2B? How about all the other overpowered doffs like the A2D one, EPTX cooldown doff, anything that reduces cooldown, the shield penetration doff, etc, etc. If we nerf A2B, these doffs should be nerfed as well. Ultimately if you have a problem with something, learn to beat it or accept that perhaps it is a counter to your build. For example, I hate FBP, but I recognize that it is a wonderful counter to high damage builds.
How about all those wonderful boff powers? Go Down Fighting, Attack Pattern Alpha/Omega, RSP, Science Team, etc etc. Should we nerf those too? Hell, while we are at it, lets nerf the whole game until everything is "balanced" (sarcasm intended).
4. If you are having trouble fighting against A2B, you are doing it wrong...
There are tons of ways to counter A2B builds. One of the most notable methods is by using Subnuke. Subnuke while effective on everything is more effective on A2B builds since it stops the activation of A2B and and requires the A2B user to use the minimal boff skills that remain.
A2B also has plenty of weaknesses. One of the most notable is Tac Team (in 99% of A2B builds) not being up all the time meaning that you are very weak for a few seconds. Most of the time, even when you are running aux batteries with the Quartermaster Batter doff (let's nerf this one too guys
trollface) you have low auxiliary meaning crappy heals and science powers. Also, if you run A2B in an escort, you are weak to A2D escorts due to your lack of turn. I could go on and on here, but I think everyone gets the point that A2B has its weaknesses and is counterable.
To summarize, is the A2B doff great? Of course! Is it the only "overpowered" doff in the game? Of course not! Is it an I win button? Of course not! Should it be nerfed? Unless you want to nerf every other doff in the game to be fair, no.
Thanks for reading. Feel free to spew your hate at me repeatedly
Here are some reasons why the A2B skill and doff is a vital part of the game in PvP. Please note that everytime I refer to A2B, I am talking about both the skill and the doff.
As for PvE, you are all fighting against the same weak NPCs that take 2 seconds to kill, so why does it matter anyways? In PvE, if you think A2B is overpowered, isn't that a good thing because with that same logic won't you get your grind done faster? On a side note, for PvE, the highest DPS and tankiest builds are NOT A2B anyways, so I am failing to see the problem here...
Below are various reasons why the A2B skill and doff should not be nerfed. Please note that these are not listed in any particular order except the order in which I thought of them.
1. A2B Provides More Playstyle Options for a Ship
Being able to make a very tanky ship put out more DPS is one of the best features of A2B. Before A2B, if a ship had limited tactical slots, forget about doing any kind of good damage whatsoever. Limted tactical slots mean't that you had room for Tactical Team, (a requirement in PvP) and maybe 1 or 2 other tactical abilities. Due to the lack of tactical slots on MANY ships, you are unable to slot duplicate copies of most tactical abilities making A2B the only viable solution. Anyone who has played PvP knows that a beam cruiser that isn't doing enough damage or putting out enough heals is pretty much useless. So my question to all the naysayers is this. Do you want to return to the era of escorts online where only pure escorts and healers are viable?
2. A2B is an easy to use cost effective alternative to more expensive builds
Last I checked on the exchange, A2B doffs were around 10 million EC. While expensive for a casual player to begin PvP, this is much better than having to buy Attack Pattern Doffs which cost a fortune, or have the best possible gear to be even remotely competitive. Less experienced players may also have difficulty creating more advanced builds due to lack of game knowledge. Since A2B is well advertised (Thanks Haters!) and is viable (not optimal) on many ships, new PvPers can at least stand a chance in a good A2B build at either surviving or doing enough DPS to be competitive against a seasoned veteran. Don't we want more people to PvP and not get scared by that first game where they die 15 times in 16 seconds?
3. Why stop at nerfing A2B? EVERYTHING MUST BE NERFED!!!
What is so special about A2B? How about all the other overpowered doffs like the A2D one, EPTX cooldown doff, anything that reduces cooldown, the shield penetration doff, etc, etc. If we nerf A2B, these doffs should be nerfed as well. Ultimately if you have a problem with something, learn to beat it or accept that perhaps it is a counter to your build. For example, I hate FBP, but I recognize that it is a wonderful counter to high damage builds.
How about all those wonderful boff powers? Go Down Fighting, Attack Pattern Alpha/Omega, RSP, Science Team, etc etc. Should we nerf those too? Hell, while we are at it, lets nerf the whole game until everything is "balanced" (sarcasm intended).
4. If you are having trouble fighting against A2B, you are doing it wrong...
There are tons of ways to counter A2B builds. One of the most notable methods is by using Subnuke. Subnuke while effective on everything is more effective on A2B builds since it stops the activation of A2B and and requires the A2B user to use the minimal boff skills that remain.
A2B also has plenty of weaknesses. One of the most notable is Tac Team (in 99% of A2B builds) not being up all the time meaning that you are very weak for a few seconds. Most of the time, even when you are running aux batteries with the Quartermaster Batter doff (let's nerf this one too guys
trollface) you have low auxiliary meaning crappy heals and science powers. Also, if you run A2B in an escort, you are weak to A2D escorts due to your lack of turn. I could go on and on here, but I think everyone gets the point that A2B has its weaknesses and is counterable.To summarize, is the A2B doff great? Of course! Is it the only "overpowered" doff in the game? Of course not! Is it an I win button? Of course not! Should it be nerfed? Unless you want to nerf every other doff in the game to be fair, no.
Thanks for reading. Feel free to spew your hate at me repeatedly
Post edited by rynotheking14 on
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Comments
Why not introduce more offensive oriented engineering powers? Or, first off, start buffing the offensive oriented engineering powers?
Aceton Beam is almost never seen in play because it's so weak, why not fix that? How could a Directed Energy Modulation look like that can compete with a BFAW or CRF on its own, instead of requiring somet rcikery with A2B, DOFFs and BFAW? It's a LtCrm+ ability!
However, because of the amount of work involved to rework countless powers, this will not happen, at least in the near future.
This is why we need to keep A2B with the doffs and their current functions in game, at lesat for now...
Regardless of if it was the right choice to address the problem, it now exists and provides options. Removing/nerfing it should be the very last thing they do, after introducing other options.
The only reason people do run A2B is because it is very cheap to do - Doff B'Tran Cluster, Borg Block to get your Doffs, sort Boff powers.
Compare that to a non-A2B set up. ^
Your logic is flawed, on both counts. For a start it could take someone two weeks to crit enough times to secure the needed Technicians. Given the alteration to cluster timers, which is an obvious means to delay the acquisiton of support purples, even longer perhaps. Even then a build needs to be configured so that the loss of aux power is not detrimental, additionla Eng abilities are balanced with the loss of two slots, and Tac powers have no redundancy. A CSV escort would take 30 minutes to set up by comparison.
Though even to align with your view and regard it as "cheap". It is irrelevant. Some of the wealthiest players I know run ATB because it can be easily transplanted across starships as a reliable method of extracting damage potential while keeping costs very low.
The reasons people run ATB are manifest. It makes Eng-heavy ships viable. It optimises damage for already powerful ships i.e. Scimitar and it enables cooldown reduction which is useful for niche builds and offers more utility.
Valdus | Charn | Costello | Typhus | Thyran
STO forums, your residents' inability to read what someone posts never ceases to amaze me...
What part of "intentionally restricting themselves..." did you miss? All of that counts as intentional restrictions. Except for Doffs and crit chance, but that is pure luck.
Admittedly I didn't see that.
Valdus | Charn | Costello | Typhus | Thyran
No worries.
The debuff clearing doff and cycling ET/ST pretty much takes care of trying to debuff a good aux2bat captain.
All I was saying is that subnuc is one of the ways to counter a2b, obviously it won't work all the time.
But it doesn't, since in many cases it is clearly superior to other potential options - and thus - it actually reduces playstyle options.
As long as it is not on par with the more expensive builds, right?
Hyperbole is hyperbole...
Praise Cheezus, eh?
To 1, and only 1 play style build, and that is aux2batt.
Instead of offering up some other solution, you just wish it to remain the complete, and utter exploitable skill there is in game to date.
If you feel a tac limited cruiser, is well limited, than why not suggest something innate to these vessels?
Why not have them create/change, the way beam skill doffs work by eliminating the chance %, and go for more in favor of a set cd reduction instead like the team skills?
No, people would rather keep a completely OP, and very exploitable option such as this around, because well they can exploit it to their advantage, if need be.
Yes having multiple ships capable, of running damn near every possible skill at global cd, with the use of a single eng skill + 3 doffs, is in no way a game changer right?
I mean why have thousands of doffs for space duty, when you really only need these 3 most of the time, and when not using a aux2batt build, just a list of 20 in all is ever needed right?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Such a solution would require a recode of a lot of doffs and skills for a fix to occur.
Maybe Cryptic will surprise us with a good a2b alternative in the latest expansion. Please note how I said alternative not nerf....
You are complaining at people who are deliberately reducing their effectiveness on purpose, and you are demanding a nerf on said deliberately weakened people?
A2B is not OP. It just drags up some ships and makes them usable in the current PvE meta of DPS, and it deserves to stay for that alone.
What else does what Tech DOFFs do? Nothing, eh? So, it does more than anything else? Wouldn't that be the very essence of OP...out of balance...etc, etc, etc?
Conn TT DOFFs provide a buff to SAP and a CD reduction to Tactical Team...
Conn Evasive DOFFs provide a chance at CD reduction to Evasive Maneuvers...
Conn AP DOFFs provide a CD reduction to Attack Patterns...
EWO Beam DOFFs provide a chance at CD reduction to Beam abilities...
EWO Cannon DOFFs provide a chance at CD reduction to Cannon abilities...
EWO Subsytem DOFFs provide a chance at CD reduction to Subsystem Targeting...
DCE EPtX DOFFs provide a chance at CD reduction for Emergency Power abilities...
ME DOFFs provide a buff to Hull Repair and a CD reduction to Engineering Team...
Deflector DOFFs provide a chance at CD reduction for Deflector abilities...
DLS DOFFs provide a buff to Emitters and a CD reduction to Science Team...
RLS DOFFs provide a chance for a CD reduction to shield heals on the use of Science Team...
Technicians...each provide up to 10% CD reduction to all BOFF abilities.
So uh...just how does the one not stand out as OP compared to the others again?
In PvE, it is a way to make ships that would otherwise have no value apart from RP, and make them functional members of society in current STO. (PvP being discounted as there are maybe a 1000 PvPers in total at any level)
Those ships are not meant to be ultra efficient, in neither pve, or pvp.
Giving any ship the ability, to reduce ALL cds to this degree, is literally OP.
Those vessels, can contribute just fine without this skill, just because some say it doesn't net high enough dps, or that a tank isn't necessary, doesn't mean they should be granted close to the same performance, as vessels designed for heavy tac use, or heavy sci use.
Heck why not throw in a PO to go with that aux2batt, this way when your auxpwr is needed, you can still net your cross the board cds?
Like that isn't overboard, than throw down the aux2batt spam over, and over again!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Which it does...as detailed in my post.
3x Techs give superior results to any of those others DOFFs.
It's as simple as that.
That those 3x Techs can do for certain ships what you say they can...while others can't...simply backs that up.
And as far as folks talking about that performance and certain ships, etc, etc, etc...
I just hit up a PUG for ISE...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/715t87fox53ukxn/upload_Infected_Space_14-08-2014_04-45.log
somebody 8299.083
Vegar 7111.923
somebody 5172.263
somebody 1760.769
somebody 1325.718
Vegar's an Eng flying a Marauder.
Here's a link to the build: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=vegarmarauder_5343
It includes the skill build, traits, and DOFFs.
He's got 3.4% CrtH and 59.1% CrtD.
The Marauder is a Star Cruiser with a Hangar...no Fleet Version.
TT1, APD1
ET1, ExS1, ExS2, AtS3
EPtA1, RSP1, EPtS3
HE1, ST2
PH1
He took 46.7% of the damage...600442.
He did 66.3% of the healing...624059.
He did 30.4% of the damage...3904446.
1688242 of his damage came from straight up Mk XI Polarized Disruptor fire from six beams.
That's more damage than the last two guys combined.
Is it a 20k boat? 30k? Not a chance in Hell...but that's an average PUG - you're far more likely to see a guy or two under 2k than to see a guy over 10k.
If folks want to run with the 20-30-35-40-etc crowd, then they should hook up with them cause they'll be able to help folks with their builds, their maneuvering/positioning, overall timing - you name it. Some folks might see them as having egos out the wahzoo, but usually it's just a case of them being brutally honest...and they're still going to be there willing to help folks out.
If folks are just going to run it the average crowd...that 5-10k DPS, then well they're probably just having a blast with half-baked builds flying around going wheeeee and taking it easy...
It's a casual game...there's no reason why with everything that's in this game - that you can't get that "crappy" boat into the 5-10k range or even higher if you try a wee bit.
So all the "crappy" boats need AtB stuff is simply garbage...
Lol, nice virus, that is a lovely depiction of the, so called gimp vessels that they state, needs aux2batt to do ANYTHING, besides sit there, and look pretty.
Oh, and provides no actual contribution, to their team in any way!
It clearly shows it actually can, and does, just because it isn't up to the high dps society standards, or not their own standards, it is useless to them!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I will not call it stupid - stupid is turrets fore, mines aft with pure beam skills - I will call it non-optimal for the type of content you are playing.
As it stands, A2B hate is based around a skill that no one without resource based restrictions or restrictions they impose upon themselves would use - so why are you complaining at it?
It is not content designed purely for as much damage as fast as possible. It's old content that doesn't reflect the nature of the current game which allows for folks to fly it with the harder faster DPS mentality...but that doesn't mean that's the design of the content.
ISE has a 15 minute optional that doesn't start counting down until after the initial encounter. Getting that optional in 15 minutes or less...was designed as a challenge. ISE was designed for folks running 2-3k DPS not 20-30k+ DPS.
That folks are blasting through it as fast as they are simply shows that the content hasn't kept up in the least with all the power creep that's been dumped out over the years. Don't mistake that for design.
edit: Hell, you've got the DPS folks taking folks on field trips through NWS so folks can get their accolades - those folks are just along for the ride as 2-3 of the DPS folks are slaughtering NWS by themselves. The combination of their vast experience and all the goodies in the game...it's what it is, that's where the game is.
Because it is not balanced...
And it is balanced - yes, it is useful, but it is not the best way to go thanks to the bigger picture.
Don't blame the skills, blame the content for not being matched to the level of players. Hell, just giving 2xFPB3 to the Borg would kill much of the DPS racing on its own.
Normal MMOs have a tank, a healer, and a DPSer. tank stops the healer dying, healer stops the other two dying, and the DPSer kills stuff - in STO, you use 3 DPSers, as everyone has healing abilities that are more than good enough when opponents don't live long enough to actually cause damage.
Not everyone, is out to complete these missions in as little as 1-5mins, some want it to take longer.
The only dps arms race, is those who think there is, when in actuality there really isn't.
You don't need 10-80k dps, just to play this game.
And aux2batt helps ships, that were never designed to crank that sort of dps, without a huge compromise of eng/sci skills, accomplish such goals while remaining tanky enough, as though they never lost any eng/sci skills.
It is quite literally, the scape goat skill, for any who choose not to double up on a skill.
Now you can do the job of 2 of every skill, all on the use of 1 simple eng skill with 2 copies, and 3 doffs = to the equivalent of nearly 30 doffs.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
And under fair conditions of blasting through PvE content as fast as possible with no restrictions financial or otherwise, A2B loses. Why therefore, do you say it needs a nerf when it does not?
You are always saying A2B is so good - prove it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt0ECfSh8xQ
Hmm well easily spotted, how well 1 copy of aux2batt helped this guy out.
Using it to test on my Tac Oddy, enabled me to deliver easy 10-13kdps, while remaining a literal tank, in pve & pvp.
Just think, hmmm would that guy have lived, if he wasn't using aux2batt, would his intended target survive, even if for only a tad longer, or would he have killed his attacker?
I mean, why should I have to be the one to prove anything, when those who ask for it themselves cannot prove it is necessary!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
You bandy 10-13k DPS about like it is a lot. How quaint. You do know that is entry level now thanks to power creep - your ship can deliver more than 3 times that flown correctly.
And PvP is not what I asked for, try again.
You asked for proof aux2batt is a necessary crutch, so I showed you someone who agrees.
And, I realllllly do not care what you think, nor do I care if my vessel can obtain 3X the 10k range, because guess what it isn't even necessary!!!
Nor is aux2batt being able to reduce cds, to the degree it does!!!
So show some proof, why it should remain unchanged, and I mean actual proof, and not with your hard headed words!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThmWxUIfGdw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taykuW7dIyg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tte3hpAaUrw
So, by your definition, these builds need to have aux2batt to perform, or not?
Because using it, sure doesn't look like it is gimping them any at all, heal wise or anything.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1194301
I mean heck, you even have people giving advice, for this person to go ahead with it.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
2. Same as above.
3. His ship can do far better non-A2Bed. Not bad doing it with beams, beam banks, DHCs, a torpedo and a turret mind.
IMO, none of those youtiube films do a pro-A2B argument any favours, as both the Avenger and Scimitar can do better without it. In fact, if you did want to care a bit more you would have known not to use them as examples.
My Whole point is A2B is not good - so far, you have only posted ships that support that notion.
If your entire issue is A2B can be used to reduce Boff cooldowns, then your issue is with all other Doffs that reduce cooldowns as well, and don't come with A2Bs disadvantages - the fact is, A2B is not OP, it just seems like it at first glance.
and why nobody talks about lobi or c-store consoles; they could be also designated as OP; the tachiosomething console for example, the plasmonic leech etc etc. If A2B must be nerfed then all the "OP" stuff must be also nerfed.