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Nerfing Crits will remove 90% of the powercreep in this game.

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    sjokruhlicasjokruhlica Member Posts: 434 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Nothing needs to be nerfed. Elite missions need to be made more difficult.
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    rodentmasterrodentmaster Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Probably the best things that would bring some of the DPS creep back into line would be the following:

    1) overcapping. Remove it entirely. Make all weapons power above the hard cap just disappear.

    2) reduce FAW effectiveness slightly against single targets, like 5% reduction from what it is now

    3) Reduce cannon skill ranks so they start at ENS level, reduce overall damage boost CSV gives by about 5% or so against single targets.


    There are a few other things like limiting SRO so it doesn't stack, etc. The above are probably the worst offenders.
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    gurugeorgegurugeorge Member Posts: 421 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    simeion1 wrote: »
    When you shut down NPCs to allow others to have fun. This is enjoyable to me.

    Heck, I'm sure many players would dearly love to have more complex, interedependent gameplay.

    But developers have to balance that desire against the desire of a far bigger majority who just want to relax, shoot at things and make them assplode. Always, always, always, it comes down to this: some people want to be challenged, and think of that as "fun", but far more don't, and want to feel godly. Neither is right or wrong, because "game" includes both kinds of concepts. But it's a big factor in what developers will spend time and energy on presenting.

    All MMOs, without exception (that I can think of anyway), have started off with good intentions, with complex gameplay interdependencies, interesting AI, and and they've all eventually devolved to "DPS is king" against mobs that more or less sit and beg to be shot at.

    Sad but true.

    That being the case, we just have to work with it. I think it's possible for MMO developers to do things differently, but it's probably not a good ROI (in man hours, equipment, etc.) for them to do so, so they don't, and they fudge it over.
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    arcanum70arcanum70 Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    sdkraust wrote: »
    The only difference between someone who does 10K DPS in ISE and someone who does 20K is that the 20K person has invested millions of EC / tens of thousands of Dil into Crit. A2B isn't the issue (and hasn't been the "best" DPS build) for over a year now. Crit builds are.

    This is an elaborate lie from the DPS-Prime people to distract you and cryptic. This knowledge is freely available

    Edit:

    For people who don't know, PvE is "broken" by organized teams because of alpha striking, and prolonged staggering of stuff like Tactical Fleet. The other issue of course is Go Down Fighting, but this is a defining trait to Tac Captains, and if anything it should be nerfed again like it's been previously (although this is not really needed IMO)

    In other words; "I don't want to have to adjust my tactics, so 'it's not fair' and since I'm whining they better take the NERF bat to it like they have everything else in this game so that it's adjusted to the lowest common denominator"

    I remember when people didn't whine, they adjusted.
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    dkratascodkratasco Member Posts: 585 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    gurugeorge wrote: »
    Heck, I'm sure many players would dearly love to have more complex, interedependent gameplay.

    But developers have to balance that desire against the desire of a far bigger majority who just want to relax, shoot at things and make them assplode. Always, always, always, it comes down to this: some people want to be challenged, and think of that as "fun", but far more don't, and want to feel godly. Neither is right or wrong, because "game" includes both kinds of concepts. But it's a big factor in what developers will spend time and energy on presenting.

    That's why challenge-liking players should have elite missions (and I mean really elite not what we have now) and rest stick to normal. But no, those 'normal' players have to keep going for elites and keep crying that game is to hard and they all want all endgame equipment without all that time, skill, knowledge investment. Equipment that they mostly don't even know how to properly use and then cry for nerf it, just because that someone is using it better than them. If everybody stay where they belong in game mechanics then there wan't be any problems.
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    wilbor2wilbor2 Member Posts: 1,684 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Guys u do know geko said powercreep would be fixed with the new season dam i think i fell for it again pmsl

    elite missions need a buff im hoping that the new lvl 60 sfuff will do that but ill belive it when i see it

    stop asking for nerfs pugs n learn how to play to ur best ability
    gs9kwcxytstg.jpg
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    kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited August 2014
    dkratasco wrote: »
    That's why challenge-liking players should have elite missions (and I mean really elite not what we have now) and rest stick to normal. But no, those 'normal' players have to keep going for elites and keep crying that game is to hard and they all want all endgame equipment without all that time, skill, knowledge investment. Equipment that they mostly don't even know how to properly use and then cry for nerf it, just because that someone is using it better than them. If everybody stay where they belong in game mechanics then there wan't be any problems.


    You asked for it so introducing our new challenge mode use at your own risk in our new NITEMARE level of difficulty:

    • All NPCs have been scripted to use player survivor mechanics [TT,EPTS,HE,TSS,PH,APO,FBP,etc]
    • All Mid-Boss+ level NPCs will use player capt abilities [APA,SBN,MW,etc]
    • All NPCs will now cross heal if they detect a fellow npc is below 75% health.
    • All NPC power levels start at 100 to each subsystem
    • All NPC spawns are 2x Elite content [Exam... ISE Boss spawn is 2 Tactical cubes, 8 spheres,4 health regen spheres, 4 tractor spheres]
    • All NPCs have a base 50% DR to energy weapons
    • All NPCs now sport Elite resilient Adaptive shields including previously unshielded targets
    • All NPCs have received a 30% boost in health and shield hp
    • All Mission optional timers have been reduced by 20%
    • All Mission completion timers have been reduced by 20%
    • Ship / Player injuries can be obtained prior to death but can NOT be cleared till post mission
    • If your ship dies teammates have 45secs to REZ your ship using Miracle worker but must be within 3km to do so.
    • If more than 2 players / ships dies in the mission and is unREZed a 1min Mission failure countdown starts till they are REZed

    • Mission rewards including drops and Dilith are increased by 25%
    • Mission completion with optional rewards are increased by 60%, with a chance of an UR item drop for entire team [UR items drawn from Lvl 20 crafting tables]

    IF MISSION FAILS ALL TEAMMATES ARE ON A 2HR CD BEFORE ANY OTHER QUED/PRIVATE QUED INSTANCE MISSION CAN BE TRIED


    IF MISSION COMPLETES BUT SOME PLAYERS/SHIPS REMAIN UNREZED ALL TEAMMATES ARE ON A 2HR CD BEFORE ANY OTHER QUED/PRIVATE QUED INSTANCE MISSION CAN BE TRIED


    THIS DIFFICULTY LEVEL WILL NOT BE RESET TO MAKE IT EASIER IN THE FUTURE



    [Not an official PWE/Cryptic announcement :P]
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    It was niced till you placed "Miracle worker" as a must-have-skill in their. You shoulnt be forced to take a certain class with you, especially as the "class" defining role depends on the ship and not necessarily on the captains class.
    If the mission can be done better/faster/more efficiently when having 1-2ppl with a certain class with you, thats of course a different story (you are not forced to, but its nice to have). Like its always nice to have a Sci with you in Hive.

    Also, while all those things are nice (though the injurie part is another thing one has to look critical at, but would be ok if tied to falling under x% HP), the rewards are laughable. Dont get me wrong, challenging is nice, but after beating it a few times (at the point when tactics are clear), you just go back to normal Elite, steamroll all 4 stfs in the time 1 nightmare takes and have more than 3 times the reward.
    Challenging is one thing, but without a good reward, challenge is obsolete after beating it a few times.
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    kapla1755kapla1755 Member Posts: 1,249
    edited August 2014
    woodwhity wrote: »
    It was niced till you placed "Miracle worker" as a must-have-skill in their. You shoulnt be forced to take a certain class with you, especially as the "class" defining role depends on the ship and not necessarily on the captains class.
    If the mission can be done better/faster/more efficiently when having 1-2ppl with a certain class with you, thats of course a different story (you are not forced to, but its nice to have). Like its always nice to have a Sci with you in Hive.

    Also, while all those things are nice (though the injurie part is another thing one has to look critical at, but would be ok if tied to falling under x% HP), the rewards are laughable. Dont get me wrong, challenging is nice, but after beating it a few times (at the point when tactics are clear), you just go back to normal Elite, steamroll all 4 stfs in the time 1 nightmare takes and have more than 3 times the reward.
    Challenging is one thing, but without a good reward, challenge is obsolete after beating it a few times.


    Actually I was just gonna put "Engineering Team" instead on "Miracle worker" but it didn't have the same Zing to it :D and technically the rewards are better where else can you get lvl 20 crafted items atm for free in 20% less time to complete the mission? Injuries are part of the risk vs reward strategy to encourage teamwork though I would foresee something like this as a pre-made team situation due to the stated penalties trusting a pug to do it right would be silly. It was an interesting mental exercise while I waited for IGE to pop with a decent pug. :rolleyes:
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    johnstewardjohnsteward Member Posts: 1,073 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    sdkraust wrote: »
    *Looks at crth on Eng FAHCR that I regularly do 12K with*
    9%

    I'm assuming you have Locators on the mentioned ships.
    "Cheap builds" my TRIBBLE

    Also maybe go outside out DPS-XXXX for a few minutes (aka your high horse). Worse thing to ever happen to this community.

    Edit: *checks FACR with Vulnerability Locators* => 14%

    I can imagine what an additional 5% does for DPS.

    Maybe i'm the stupid one here but isnt crit dmg supposed to work like this :

    IF crit chance THEN add crit dmg

    ?


    Even with all consoles, boffs, traits and rep traits that add crit slottet you propably end up around 25 % crit chance and with say crtd x3 ap dhcs you get to say about 200% crit dmg. (not including bonuses from apa and other skills cause everyone can have those easily/when playing a tac)

    That means your dmg is increased by 40% (25% of 200% base = 40% base)

    And even if you dont care about crits at all and only use whatever gear you will end up at around 10% crit chance and 100% crit dmg which is a 10% base dmg increase.

    Thus a crt heavy spec is only 27 % (1.4 / 1.1) total dmg increase compared to a whatever build. Thats nowhere near the suggested 100% difference through crits.

    At least in my own experience the biggest difference in total dmg done from one player to someone else is defined by (with highest differences in dmg first, smaller factors later)


    1) max power setting into weapons
    2) distance and orientation to target when attacking
    3) using skills as often as possible and in the right situations/keep fighting, no coffee breakes in battle
    4) using a tac heavy ship
    5) dont die
    6) team synergy as in team tactics, beta spam and stuff like that.
    7) getting better gear as in fleet/rep stuff
    8) getting better boffs/doffs
    9) overcapping and stuff like that

    Maybe 6-9 arent in the right order, but the main point is the MAIN DMG LOSS is on 1-5, with the cost heavy hard to get stuff waaay down on 6-9. Maybe 4 and 6 should change dont know, its just an estimation. Feel free to see it differently but thats my take on the whole dmg range situation. Most of it can be easily fixed by explaining to people what factors modify their dmg and how. In most stfs (and i do mainly pugs cause its more fun than dps30k vipes) you see ppl heavily engaged in combat all the time, and in the end the parser shows they've only done like 2k dps.

    I'm quite sure the only way to achieve that low values is by doing everything in ones power NOT to do dmg. That maybe sounds a bit arrogant but really you have to NOT use skills and fire with half your weapons from 8km away having say all enery settings on average and maybe even die a few times than maybe you get that low.

    I often thought that if cryptic changed the base energy power distribution when activating a new ship to have max power in weapons instead of balanced settings, at least the low dmg range would immediatly double or tripple.
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    dkratascodkratasco Member Posts: 585 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I often thought that if cryptic changed the base energy power distribution when activating a new ship to have max power in weapons instead of balanced settings, at least the low dmg range would immediatly double or tripple.

    Why? It's explained in tutorial, as many other things, if someone doesn't read it's his/her own problem. Stop protecting people from their own stupidity/laziness.
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    corelogikcorelogik Member Posts: 1,039 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    sdkraust wrote: »
    The only difference between someone who does 10K DPS in ISE and someone who does 20K is that the 20K person has invested millions of EC / tens of thousands of Dil into Crit. A2B isn't the issue (and hasn't been the "best" DPS build) for over a year now. Crit builds are.

    This is an elaborate lie from the DPS-Prime people to distract you and cryptic. This knowledge is freely available

    Edit:

    For people who don't know, PvE is "broken" by organized teams because of alpha striking, and prolonged staggering of stuff like Tactical Fleet. The other issue of course is Go Down Fighting, but this is a defining trait to Tac Captains, and if anything it should be nerfed again like it's been previously (although this is not really needed IMO)

    Crit does not need a nerf and building a ship that does decent amounts of it, not insane amounts but decent, does NOT involve millions of EC/Dilithium. You can do a lot with some judicious skill spec'ing, choice of Rep passives and choice of equipment/weapons.

    The problem is, people don't know how to do this when starting out. Well most ACTUAL new people don't. Not counting alt's.

    What would be better, instead of nerfing a perfectly functional and useful system, would be putting in a tutorial mission, before too much skill spec'ing has happened, to explain such things to people.

    I recently discovered the "magic" of Crit and I've managed to bump mine by more than 300% from what it was with just some shifting of passives, a respec token and a couple of consoles. 1 of my "crit" consoles comes from Rep, 1 from a ship in the c-store and one from my fleet.

    Does it cost some resources to do, yes, but it doesn't HAVE to cost millions or take years.

    With 1500 Zen, 51,000 Dilithium and some time, I bumped my crit from ~5% to just over ~20%. I now hit harder, more often and am having much more fun.
    "Go play with your DPS in the corner, I don't care how big it is." ~ Me
    "There... are... four... lights!" ~Jean Luc Picard
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    tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    That's just it, they are always continuously removing/nerfing/buffing (well not so much buffing, as opposed to nerfing) things in this game, and who are they exactly balancing this game for?

    PVE? Please, balancing isn't so heavily desired here by all, so where else would game balance be needed?

    Than their idea of balance, is to nerf something to oblivion, or better yet to virtual uselessness.

    Yeah, this. The elitists here want the game balanced.... for them!


    OP is just a min-maxer whose electric **** is feeling threatened by other man mixers, so he wants to ruin the stuff for the normal casual players.

    Despicable, really.
    What is power creep for a moneybag like OP, is a much needed help for a new player.
    Again, the elitist crowd in STO with their "Learn to do 50kdps or you suck, game content is soo weak buff it buff it" attitude are the worst I have ever seen in a game.
    And when anybody finds the content challanging, they throw a tantrum.

    These are the people who give STO problems.
    They rule the PVP so that a new player can't enter it without getting instantly destroyed. They get everything fun nerfed, just because they can't use it or don't want to use it to suit their playstyle.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
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    woodwhitywoodwhity Member Posts: 2,636 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Pls, you make it sound as if the damn DPS-Elitists and pvp-Elitists are the same crowd. They arent. They are enemies to each other.

    The ones who cry for nerfs and buffs are mostly mediocre players. The good players simply adapt.
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    thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    sdkraust wrote: »
    The only difference between someone who does 10K DPS in ISE and someone who does 20K is that the 20K person has invested millions of EC / tens of thousands of Dil into Crit. A2B isn't the issue (and hasn't been the "best" DPS build) for over a year now. Crit builds are.

    This is an elaborate lie from the DPS-Prime people to distract you and cryptic. This knowledge is freely available

    Edit:

    For people who don't know, PvE is "broken" by organized teams because of alpha striking, and prolonged staggering of stuff like Tactical Fleet. The other issue of course is Go Down Fighting, but this is a defining trait to Tac Captains, and if anything it should be nerfed again like it's been previously (although this is not really needed IMO)

    Aux2Bat and High Crit builds, both severity and chance, are not mutually exclusive. You can have both.

    Saying Aux2Bat isn't broken and that it is no longer a part of any high dps build is incorrect.

    Saying alpha strikes dominate PVE is also incorrect.

    When you understand how the combat system works, you'd understand that there was no need to reign in crit severity.

    All you'd really need to do is add some defense to the NPC's.

    For anyone that really cares or honestly wants to know, to tune the damage output in this game, the first button devs have is the Acc/Def button. The second button is labeled 'Resists' but sadly, it has a very limited range.

    If you're unsure about this just look at the design of the early STFs and the health pools of the structures vs the entire rest of the game.

    Cheers and happy ranting.

    EDIT: Here's a brief explanation of how that works.
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    dkratascodkratasco Member Posts: 585 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tpalelena wrote: »
    Yeah, this. The elitists here want the game balanced.... for them!

    If by "elitists" you mean people who simply think and use their brains to get common knowledge about ingame mechanics and learn how to use it, then yes balance game for them.
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    zunaguliizunagulii Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    tpalelena wrote: »
    The elitists here want the game balanced.... for them
    so because i can actually use my brain to solve a problem i am an elitist? i rather think ppl that are unable or unwilling to use their brains are morons whereas i see myself more on the normal side of things.
    u sir are simply an idiot that cannot or will not think about how to build his ship. yet u call everyone an elitist who does. am i in a call of duty forum here or what? sounds like everybody that is better then u HAS to cheat.
    and no, even with a canon ship u can easily get invited to the "elite" group of 10k dps. how? well, maybe start using ur brain and it will come to u. otherwise google does the trick too ;)
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    fatman592fatman592 Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    DPS isn't a big deal in PvP, so don't lump PvPers in with DPS obsessed PvEers. Not even remotely the same builds- or even mindset.

    Crit went out of control with LoR onward. Now with the beam overload mechanic changes even my Fleet Nebula is a threat. It seems to me that they're not pandering to elitists but to casuals. And that's fine with me, because they would only be catered to only if it made business sense.

    The devs are walking a fine line between keeping the game somewhat balanced and giving everyone a hero ship experience. Can't say they're doing a terrible job. PvP is more accessible than ever and PvE is easier than ever.
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    trilljinxtrilljinx Member Posts: 44 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    In a game based around customizing your own ship, the way you want it, why are those people who consider Google the pinnacle of character development considered to be the 'elite' ones? Copying something Google says does not make you 'elite', nor even 'competent'.

    I suppose you are the type of person who has many, many keybinds in place to activate all sorts of abilities, and that makes you believe you are playing the game well.

    I knew a guy who played WoW like that. He bound lots of his powers to a macro which, when used, dealt lots of damage to the mob he was fighting, but he still didn't know how to play the game. All he was doing was copying a build with macros he had read about as having high DPS. In raids using macros, he was hitting 8-9k DPS (WotLK expansion). Outside of raids, he was lucky to get 6k.

    If you want to be actually elite, try doing some things for yourself, instead of just ******** that everyone does low DPS and you want the game made harder. Do something a little different for a change, swap your weapons loadout, experiment with new weapons you never read about on Google. Find a new build that is more fun than simply shooting stuff.

    As has already been suggested, take out a lower tier ship and try the STFs. Someone in this thread suggested that 4k DPS would be suitable for an elite STF (or something like that), so why limit your approach to 'Must have big numbers'?

    Or, if this sounds too stressful for your spoon-fed mind to handle, teach. Take newly levelled VAs into an STF, and teach them how to complete it. Show them the tips and tricks Google taught you to increase their DPS, so you might have fewer people to complain about. But, no. Too small minded to even consider such a thing? That wouldn't surprise me. Most elitist types are exactly the same.

    Your attitude here doesn't come across as elite. It comes across as elitist, and pandering to that very, very small percentile of the player base is never a good idea for the game.
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