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plz buff elite missions in s10
zunagulii
Member Posts: 26 Arc User
only thing i could read in the available stuff to the new season was more this more that more stuff more more more better better better but where are the pve enemys? note that i used the word enemy for the so-called elite borg 
i really would like to see a rebuild of normal and elite missions, so that elite is actually elite. or maybe add another class of stfs that are called e.g. veteran stf, where u need to have at least some skill and knowledge to not plop every 20 seconds. and maybe where the sci is actually needed to debuff and an engi to heal but lets not go too far ahead...
in my opinion, someone with below or about 2k dps should never ever be able to ever kill even a probe in an elite stf let alone finish it...
and dont tell me the game is hard enough, if ppl would just use google everyone could easily surpass 10k dps and have 0 problems with any enemy in the game if they wanted to...
and now let the flame and blame begin though i hope many ppl see it the same way and want cryptic to add more challenge to all the stfs instead of simply pouring more and more boring damage onto us
and to the ones that might blame me for being arrogant or smth: 1. not my intention (i think everyone can get above 10k dps if properly motivated, which would prove my point in the game being too easy) 2. use google and read at least 2 guides, u can do it
i really would like to see a rebuild of normal and elite missions, so that elite is actually elite. or maybe add another class of stfs that are called e.g. veteran stf, where u need to have at least some skill and knowledge to not plop every 20 seconds. and maybe where the sci is actually needed to debuff and an engi to heal but lets not go too far ahead...
in my opinion, someone with below or about 2k dps should never ever be able to ever kill even a probe in an elite stf let alone finish it...
and dont tell me the game is hard enough, if ppl would just use google everyone could easily surpass 10k dps and have 0 problems with any enemy in the game if they wanted to...
and now let the flame and blame begin though i hope many ppl see it the same way and want cryptic to add more challenge to all the stfs instead of simply pouring more and more boring damage onto us
and to the ones that might blame me for being arrogant or smth: 1. not my intention (i think everyone can get above 10k dps if properly motivated, which would prove my point in the game being too easy) 2. use google and read at least 2 guides, u can do it
Post edited by zunagulii on
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(But you should probably be aware that your phrasing does come off a little bit 'Elitist DPS'z Derp")
Anyway ... Most game companies, Cryptic included, seem to think that 100000000 HP enemies equals difficult, but then players complain that it's "too hardz n stuffz", so they give the ability to do 100000000 damage, then players complain "it's too eazy n stuffz", so the give enemies 100000001 HP, then players complain ... etc. You get the idea.
No game company though is willing to draw a line in the sand and say this is it! Enemies have this much HP, and you have this much damage potential, either you work out the right tactics or you are dead ...
Because that sort of thinking frightens instant gratification crowd, and that crowd has a lot of money to spend ...
They almost got it right in the last MU Event ... Except the didn't have the stones to go all the way ... That even should have at least had an "Elite" or 'veteran" version, where it was required for an Engi to power up the weapons, and required for a Sci to close rifts, and the 3 excorts had to keep the enemies busy while the Engi and Sci did their work otherwise the mission would fail ... That is teamwork, and that is entertaining ...
Imagine ISE, where you all destroy the first Cube, but you MUST have a Engii player with a unique Engi Only ability that allow him to shut down the generators? And the others have to fight off the Spheres until he's done. And then you MUST have Sci player who has a unique ability that allows them to deactivate the gate, and the others (now including the Engi) have to handle the Spheres/Cubes until it's deactivated, then you can all get together to kill the Tac Cube ...
And you could have a Sci ability that makes controlling the spheres easier, while the Engi works, and vice versa for the Engi while to Sci works ... All helping AS A TEAM, using various tactics, to defeat the mission ...
Instead though, we have 1.5 min ISE runs, and players complaining they are bored ...
They've done some good ... The Dyson Ground BZ for instance does have some tactics which make things much easier, like "rescuing" Commandos to help clear points for instance ... But again they didn't go all the way, because of that same Instant Gratification crowd ...
The STF's though: even cure, which I used to avoid like the plague: ran it in pugs s load this weekend: optional every time.
And therein is the problem: look at the public queue size for ISE, then for viscous cycle.
So.. hard right? Yes and no. Transports? Not so hard. The situation, the timing, the COMPLEXITY? Now we're talking.
You have to define what you mean by "make them more elite" because simply putting DPS walls in kills this game, and it's already being killed by them. No need to hasten it.
As an aside, more COMPLEXITY with less DIFFICULTY would a far better thing than we have now. If I want to run my character as a cold-blooded alien with a breen ship and using breen gear, I'm NEVER going to be able to withstand the redonkullous one-hit-kills we have now. The gear just isn't competitive, but it makes me happy if I want to. If I take a JH set with polarons and that's how my character's back story is set up and play out, I should STILL be able to accomplish ALL end-game elite missions in that gear. Just beacuse it isn't the best doesn't mean I should be removed from the game.
I'll tell you this: Not everybody has locator consoles. Not everybody has AMP cores. Not everybody even has all-fleet weapons. Most of us... the VAST majority of us, do not have access to these because of Cryptic's intention to make the grind so bad it drives players away. Well, it's done that. It has driven us away... from the grind.
Your OP comes off as super elitist, super "DPS is teh b3st3st way to play!!" and I think that's bad. Don't get me wrong: I try to get more damage from my builds, but I just don't have access to zemoks or to marions or to elite fleet gear or to spire consoles or to any of the stuff you probably do. I can still get top listing on a pug. I can still break 10k on some builds. I'm sorry you're bored. You're the top 1 percentile of the game. Enjoy it. We, the rest, are still struggling at times. More DPS walls and more 1-hit kills will simply make me stop playing. Again.
but the idea with ise and engi required to disable and sci required to do something is good. add to that some spheres that actually buff, debuff and heal their cubes and cubes that actually fight with many abilities (see queen in hive, just maybe not that hard for a standard cube ^^) and u have an elite stf
i dont say make the enemys have more hp so i ned to shoot more and deal more dps, i want to have to think about my build so i can deal max dps and at thesame time have way more tankability then before so i dont plop in elite as a tac, not only maxing dps as its atm. and engi/sci the same, i want to have to think about my role and how i can fulfil that at best so my team can win. thats elite for me.
Great...another thread demanding fetish abuse.
If you want a challenge, use a lower tier ship and stop trying to wag the targ.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
There already is. 3 probes x each probes' hitpoints total damage required in under a time that it takes them to get to the gate on KASE. Or nante transformer HP divided by 5 palyers in under the time it takes for spheres to get 10k range from the nanite transformer. If you cant' do that you're screwed.
There is a specific minimum DPS required for many of these ESTFs. The thing is most people alrealdy meet that minimum, so we find more ways to tweak our methods. Even when people don't meet it, tactics can make up for this -- 2/3 split on KASE, or 1/4 and rapid switch. Or 10% on ISE. Or MRRML (now RML) no CSE. See my comments below.
No, it isn't wrong. You're placing your agenda as the focus of blame for something unrelated. It's a much bigger issue with more involved facets than you wish to admit. I remember when I first did STFs (waaaaay back). I had no clue. I didn't know triggers. I didn't know game mechanics. I know now. We ALL know now. Even if people aren't that GOOD at playing they KNOW the basics of how it works. Knowledge is power and people in this game (even if they totally suck) have a basic pre-requisite of knowledge.
The difference between a player just having fun in ISE and a player beating wave 10 of NWS is knowledge. Nothing else. The ship setup for NWS isn't that hard to figure out. It's about placement, it's about understanding, it's about knowing cause and effect. Once you know it you cannot forget. As such, it may SEEM like ESTFs are too easy for anybody -- but that's just because almost EVERYBODY knows how to play them. Newbies certainly don't. You can't fight knowledge. Especially with pre-scripted STFs. For example, the difference between a smooth run and a fireball of death is knowing what lines NOT to cross on IGE. Knowledge. It's power.
That would be bad. I don't want to have to wait to have a team that MUST have a sci, MUST have a ENG, to complete the basic mission. That's forcing us to play one way only, and killing one of the very few remaining aspects that appeal in this game: The slim sliver of a hint that players can still play the way they want. That's only one or two steps removed from saying "If you don't have an Sci player in an Assault Cruiser using Tetryon weapons and with Extend Shields and Boarding Party you can NEVER EVER hope to finish ISE, EVER." Nobody would ever play ISE, period.
You can't shoe-horn people like that. You have to explore other methods to include some diversity, but you cannot force people to only play one way when the entire game is based around the MMORPG aspect of being yourself (which precludes being what the game devs tell you to be from mission to mission).
If you try running an eSTF in a T4 ship with all white equipment then you'll see it can be a challenge.
Often most pugs can be a challenge, not just because you've got newbies in there with no clue but because nobody knows what the other players are bringing to the fight so you've gotta be able to adapt and deal with multiple posibilities.
If cryptic stopped adding in ridiculous OP weaponry and ships (compared to the actual content they make) then maybe the missions would be balanced with the players running them. But you've got STF's from 2-3 years ago that can now be done blindfolded because the players are so powerful, plus they know the run like the back of their hand.
This. And this. And this.
Imagine a RPer who wants to fly a hadar ship with hadar ship only. Or a starfleet diehard playing according to canon. By increasing DPS expectation you will alienate them - by definition they are behind the power curve, and they simply do not want to play it differently.
Moreover, I pug all the time. While I'm capable of dealing with so called elite content, there is a large number of people who cannot, for three reasons. Either they are way undergeared, or they have really non-viable "builds", or they are not knowing what they got themselves into (those more often than not are unwilling to learn). I hear you saying "but I have 25k dps and I can just drag those people". Nope, you cannot. You can do it with one, maybe with two. Not with three or four, and definetly not when they lose optional cause they simply are bumbling around clueless, making you ragequit. Raising the DPS bar would make just all pug groups fail a lot more often.
If you want more challenge, start pugging. Its unpredictable, and its way funnier than channel-made 50k dps 2-minute cookie cutter runs. If you got bored, its probably because all your "elite" runs all look the same.
pwebranflakes: this system is currently in place and working the way it should.
moradum: I got banned for saying "I started my day with cutting off 3 MM off of the bottom of my cabinet"
i rather think if u add more stuff to the game u also have to match the pve-enemys.
and if ppl dont think they want to do this or that then they dont need to play elite missions. its called elite for a reason: to be played by so-called elite-players that want to max out everything they can to beat a challenge that also needs team effor. thats what i have fun at. if u dont have fun with tthat, simply dont play the elite missions and be happy, dont see the problem. atm the pve content is only for grinders and casual players, there is litterally 0 pve content for ambitioned players, even nws can be figuered out quite easily. maybe thats the 1 pve challeng, MAYBE...
a game should provide for both, casual play and ambitioned hardcore-gaming... so i and my friends can be happy in our new elite mission and a casual player that just wants to have fun can be happy in the old elite mission like they used to, dont see the problem...
and again, i am not saying players are bad and stupid, only high dps is cool. i say give the ppl that want it a higher challenge and let the rest have fun in the system as it is. noone needs to play elite missions but those who want need to be elite to beat it, whatever the challenge is (more damage, more teamplay, integration of sci&engi etc etc, many possibilities)
1. i play many pugs as i also think theres more of a challenge then to just run through it with a good team.
2. i can indeed get the stf completely on my own and there are many ppl who can do that too, no help need from anyone if it has to be that way
3. i dont say tune up the whole game, i just want a real elite stf... eather remove the old standard stfs and set the elite as new starndard and add a new real elite or keep both types and add a third one and call them normal, hard and elite. so the ppl that want, can play like they used to and others can play actual elite missions and everyone is happy, really dont see the harm in that...
There already is a minimum dps required for elite STFs. Its about 4k, and from my observations, 25-33% of puggers fail to achieve that. Not joking. You may rarely see them if you don't pug at random hours, but they are out there. There is also a lot of dumb/clueless mid-range players who could be capable to do well, but they are either unaware of whats going on around them, or simply unwilling to learn how to play this particular event (or any event, in some cases).
By the way, all kinds of "players" do not bother with normal difficulty events, cause they see in queue window that rewards are lower. It does not occure to them that "elite" means they would have work for the group in order to succeed.
Class-specific thingies in events are both neat and idiotic idea. What if a given event requires an engineer and your pug does not have one? And if you make those class-requiring thingies usable by everyone (just specific class does them faster, as it was in Mirror), you will accomplish exactly nothing.
pwebranflakes: this system is currently in place and working the way it should.
moradum: I got banned for saying "I started my day with cutting off 3 MM off of the bottom of my cabinet"
Well not exactly, but it may provide you with a different point of view.
In my opinion its now impossible to make events that would make everyone satisfied - there are guys with 80k dps (although those are padded numbers in 90 second runs, they would do maybe half that in pugs), and there are guys who do less than 2k dps - see them in elite stfs quite often.
So, pugging and events different than 3 standard borg ones. Try to pug Hive Elite. Don't bring friends.
Try out lolships - builds that by definition should not reach really high numbers, like b'rel torper or aux2batt beam bop.
/sorry for writing 2 in a row
pwebranflakes: this system is currently in place and working the way it should.
moradum: I got banned for saying "I started my day with cutting off 3 MM off of the bottom of my cabinet"
I can't fly BoPs anymore. I loved BoPs. they were fun. They were interesting. Never the hardest hitting, but able to help out. They aren't battle cruisers. They're raiders.
Still, I generally had to stop because STFs became nonstop 1-hit-kills for me.
Then after a while I went back and played The 2800 storyline again to outfit some of my boffs in JH gear (which I do sometimes, and happened to do on a toon that had BoP). I literally got blown to freaking hell INSTANTLY at least 15-20 times in the last mission fighting Karu'Kan's fleet outside DS9.
This game screws over a bunch of the playerbase with massive powercreep in the NPCs. It's not about "pleasing" everybody, it's about basic gameplay balance ACROSS THE BOARD, for all types of ships, all types of players. Not everybody is a TAC in a Xindiscort. Try playing a Sci as you level up. It definitely takes 2-3 times as long to kill any ship because you've got less weapons, less gear, less skills, less boosting powers. You can't do hardly any DPS until you reach end-level rank and can start slotting rep gear or mk XII purples. How is your intended "elitist DPS lust" going to affect people that play sci ships and as sci characters? You've just cut them out of most of the game unless they play your class, on your ship, in your way of playing.
It's a very elitist club. You basically want an exclusive club that is 90% homogenous with little to no variety and even less fun. That's why it's a bad bad bad idea.
but thats way way way waaaaaaay too far ahead for sto, atm i would simply be pleased if they would add another difficulty level... and again, i dont say change everything! the old stfs can stay, i dont care, i just think a higher setting would be more fun for many ppl! and if u cant handle it, well then u cant handle is cause this and that and that too aka read some guides, better urself. if u dont want to, play the same missions that already are there, u dont need to win the new elite missions...
all this talk about giving the players that cant handle strong enemys weaker enemys ... give ppl something the can only beat when they get better and they WILL get better! in sto its all about "the weakest player has to be able to finish everything" but i say thats bull****! if someone doesnt want to get better and work in a team, well, play like before! if u want to then go play the elite stuff...
as if it would split the players ort smth, they are already split just one faction is bored... xD
play as u like as long as u have fun with it, im all for that! but if u have fun with getting better and beating harder enemys and getting better at beating very hard team missions then ur pretty much screwed in sto, cause after 2 months every really skilled player i knew that wasnt a star trek fan left! why? cause boring, thats why...
still dont see the harm in simply adding extreme stfs to the game...
But i could see a system where for example in ISE, a sci or an eng can shut down the generators/transformers in a similar timeframe to what a tac would take to kill them outright.
So in other words you introduce class specific abilities to disable npcs rather than blow them up. It would need to take a similar amount of time to how long it takes to kill the npc, so that it is competitive.
This could potentially give the low dps or less tac oriented ships a chance to be useful in a fight.
The almost got it right in the mirror event, except that in that case it really was just a dps frenzy regardless of any special abilities.
That's what's happening in other mmos as well. People 5-manning or soloing (raid-)dungeons, running them with low-level, standardized gear. Sometimes it's being supported by the game engine (also in PVP), sometimes you have players that create their own challenges.
You'll always have the top 1% that outgears and outperforms 100% of the current content and especially smaller games simply don't have the rescources necessary to create content that's only going to be interesting to that small percentage.
i dont count myself into the last 1% and i also dont think its just 1% that outperforms the pve-enemys, its more like 30-50%... and if the rest would read some guides and ask some ppl (maybe not those with 0 clue about builds, all those a2b-is-imba-morons e.g. ^^) everyone could be able to outperform every pve mission there is... point is: mostly its not needed but for a veteran/extreme stf it would be and why should that be a bad thing?
noone NEEDS to finish everything, but if u want to u need to learn teamplay, u need to get piloting skills and u need to get a basic idea about different builds. isnt that hard tbh... and everbody that does not want to do that can play like before, no harm done, if u have fun then go have fun, thats what a game should do
We already have that. It's the NWS. It takes a very pre-controlled team with pre-determined builds and very predetermined tactics, weapons, classes, and skills. Otherwise you can't complete it.
But if you seriously want to require set skills and classes just to queue a mission, you're going to find the rest of the playerbase leaves. That's not how MMORPGs work. The solution has to be about problem SOLVING, and you are removing the problem solving from it. You're saying "do it my way, exactly, just as I describe, a mission on rails, or you fail" -- and that never works. Period. Ever.
I do agree, as a mainly Sci/Sci player, I would love to have more use for my special Sci abilities in PvE, and to be part of a team taking down difficult things.
But that would mean two stripes missions would be the best most PUGs could do.
And that's a psychological problem, because people want to feel "Elite" even if they're not, and God help the developers who don't accommodate that, these days.
2. the end-game content would not be limitet to some few ppl that all play the same builds, everyone can beat everything in sto but atm you can beat it even if u are a braindead moron that has no clue at all. EVERY GAME requires you to get better so you can beat the harder stuff but in sto u dont have to get better, you just do whatever you want woithout even thinking about it and you win. ggwp... ppl just dont want to get better, they want to feel good and dont care. if you cant beat a game at the very first try you uninstall it because its a **** game and way too hard and the developers are evil elitist nerds... theres the problem....
well then call the difficulties "normal", "elite", and "extreme" so everybody can be elite and extreme is just for those "elitist dps-boys" and noone should care about such "elitist dps-****"
but if ppl cant handle to actually put some effort into solving a problem, well, go **** urselves and play some call of duty... there are also those that actually WANT a challenge and WANT to put effort into beating it! because it feels pretty good if you finally beat that mission u worked pretty hard on
thats the kind of stuff sto lacks in endgame pve. and if u dont want that, play the old missions as they were, noone needs to beat everything except whiny little kids that are used to getting everything without doing anything.... ^^
ps: they are going to include another difficulty for pve in s10 similar to nws, there u go, ty cryptic
just got that in a video-stream from some sto-guys about the new season
That's really good news, should give the game a shot in the arm.
Wasn't the complaint, especially for "Elite" STFs, that because E-STFs contained the "sole source" of guaranteed BNPs and the bigger dil piles, that all players should have access to these missions, without any kind of "artificial" gate or qualifier?
And does anyone listen when Cryptic asks why, say, Mol'Rihan doesn't do as well as Dyson Ground does, or Starbase defense vs. NWS, Nukara Prime vs. Defera, etc? Don't the complaint(s) here revolve around payrate - why run SB24 for dil when you get just as much "raw" dil from ISE, and you can convert more dil out of the extra marks?
So, if a lot of complaining revolves around "pay", I have to believe that to make "nightmare" or rebuild the "normal / elite" baselines, the biggest complaint, aka pay, needs to be removed. Best way to do so is to "normalize" payrate(s) between normal and elite. In a way, "normalized" has to be equal, otherwise, the fact that getting more for elite means everyone would rather play elite for the extra money per time unit factor, not because they actually savor the challenge and want to prove themselves "elite".
Now, I'm thinking about this, using the STF system as we have it now. We'll keep "normal" as the tutorial levels / place to earn Omega Marks at 45 so that people have a head start on rep once 50 hits. We can then consider "elite" the "new normal" for endgame level (L50s with access to Mk XII) players, and create "nightmare" for those T5 Omegas with full kits of Mk XII space / ground. Heck, gate "nightmare" to need the T5 rep / Mk XII kit. However, instead of shelling out 60 marks (base) + 15 marks (optional) + BNP + 960 Dil, then "forcing" the player to convert the (relatively) useless to them marks & BNPs, put the conversion factor into the award. 50 marks = 500 dil. 3 BNPs = 1000 dil. 75 marks = 750 dil. 1 BNP = 333 Dil. With the "standard" 960 for mission completion, "nightmare" would issue 2043 dil and the crafting kit. Fine, round it to 2050 dil, 2100 or so with optional...
Same pay for nightmare as elite, but the nightmare has less work to "see" what most people are looking for, which is the money. And nightmare could have opponents that need the T5 rep powers & weapons to beat, since people would be playing elite for the challenge and monetary conveniences only - not because they "need" to for the stuff to complete rep tracks...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
My character Tsin'xing
Double the hitpoints, double the resistance, and triple the damage of all NPCs.
My Attrox laughs at that comment. Like CC can take over for dps, skill and brain can take over for bad shipstats.