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  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    zeratk wrote: »
    Ranting about Ground STFs? Ranting about just finishing optionals with few seconds left?

    In need of a "NPC-Bashing-Insta-I-Win-Button"?

    ....

    Ground Elite becomes popular if it won't last any longer than three minutes to finish the whole map.

    Complaining about PvP Community and their need for Balancing, but not even able to kill some stupid NPCs...

    Yes, those NPCS are too hard. Way too hard.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • spaceeagle20spaceeagle20 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    tpalelena wrote: »
    Yeah, right. I do not believe you. Even with the Elite STFs channel, it took me weeks to get the damned optionals, and even than it was something by the seconds.

    But oh well, the 1% hyper-elite pay to win PVP crowd can synergise stuff to kill everything, so nobody else can get nice things.

    And now I need the material pack from elite grounds from crafting, or I'll have to pay millions for them on the auction house. Just great! :mad:

    I should have known it was foolish to hope that ground elites could become popular now. Oh well, hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment, and I naively forgot the PVP crowd and their whined Nerfhammer.

    At least i only bought the kits on one character. A waste of 1,5 million EC, but oh well.

    Maybe I was very very lucky but the only time when I ran ground STFs with some guys from the Public Elite STF, the only time when I saw a x-queue and bumped in ... they were so easy ... we did all except Manus, and they all went so smooth ... of course, because my team was great ... Ok, I was with a very powerful Klingon bomber eng toon if you know what I mean but, really, I am a ground noob lol I didn't know what I was doing so I told them in advance and then I just followed them and seen what they were doing and gave a hand and I did my good honest share of job.
    Later, I added them as friends just in case although I never ran together with them anymore ... space called me again and now I am farming the Voth battlezone.
    Anyway, if you reach me in game I can give you their handles ... a great team.
    Space and Ground work on the same principles actually ... I guess the Expose is critical hit and Exploit Critical severity ... anyway I am a space guy so ground is not my specialty and I used to suck there but I have got 2 veteran friends who are ground lovers and they told me that Ground is harder than Space.
    That being said, I agree with dontdrunkimshoot about the bad habit of kirking.
    As I said, I didn't do a lot of STF borg ground and now I am farming the Voth battlezone but ... you don't kirk even in the Voth battlezone.
    If i recall well, The Borg assimilate you or kill you right away ( the Tac drones if I remember ) when you get too near them? Anyway, in the Voth battlezone, you need to keep a very close eye on the bombing purple-green marks on the ground so it's not a good idea to stand still and shoot or beat them with your sword because ... the T-Rex freakin' lazors hurt but that kind of orbital bombs which land on that pruple-green marks on the ground kill you in a sec.
    The Npcs who use to do that are T-Rex, Mechs, the big bad robo-dinos like the one you see walking near the transporter in Park for example and the Generals in Outskirts, Eknar , Foluma.
    About the new shiny stuff being nerfed later on, I think you are old enough in this game to know that this may ALWAYS happen and it's happened A LOT of times :P
    Just buy them right away if you see them cheap at the exchange ... otherwise, don't bother and wait.
    Actually a months old trait that I suggest you to buy if possible, because I don't think it'll be nerfed anymore , is regenerative tissue : very good especially for tacs but also for engies.
    Combine it with a biochemist which reduces hypos recharge and you should be fine.
    P58WJe7.jpg


  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Thanks for the tip. My runs there always seemed fouled by random chance, like one shot criticals taking down two team members at once (in rep gear, of course) and such.

    Another thing is why I liked Deadly Intent is that it takes up a useless assault slot, not a useful strategic one.

    As for nerfing that.... maybe do not nerf its duration, but nerf the amount of shots it can "reset" .

    So instaed of giving it a timer, give it the ability to reset secondary on primary fire for five times for 30 seconds?

    That way you can use it with charge up weapons too.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • skymagus00skymagus00 Member Posts: 140 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    @spaceeagle20 I find Public Elite STF often gives you really good teams. I certainly find I get the IGE optional about 90% of the time with teams formed via that channel. It often takes starting a ground call yourself, though, as they don't appear nearly as much as space.

    Yes, ground is harder than space - that's why it's more fun!

    Also... no the Borg don't instakill you or insta-assimilate you if you get too close (OK, mostly because assimilation isn't instant). I personally find the Borg melee attacks less painful than the spray shot or charged shot that Tactical Drones and above can all do. They also can't adapt to physical or kinetic damage. The assimilation attack is the drawback, of course: the DoT can eat your healthbar in a few seconds, which doesn't leave much time to fire a counter. Oh, and ALL Borg can assimilate, not just tactical drones. That doesn't mean they'll try it immediately, though.

    Do remind me to give you another ground tutorial sometime, Arthas. :D

    As for kirking... it's only bad because most players who do it a) can't pull it off, b) think they know better but don't, and c) think it is a substitute for good teamwork. It is never wise in PvP (unless it's a 1v1 match). PvE occasionally has its moments - usually when the rest of the team is really bad AND isn't willing to listen to tuition. In that situation, one really strong player can save a map - but it doesn't happen often and that player has to be well equipped and know exactly what they're doing. Unfortunately, most of the time it is noobs who do it, and end up messing things up instead.

    I might point out that it is possible to solo points in the Voth battlezone with all three classes (although the 'hold the point for x time' ones take ages, so it isn't recommended for those). I will agree on the purple mortar strikes, though - a large number of those will hurt even the toughest tank. Fortunately, they're easily avoided most of the time, particularly if you're familiar with Hive Ground.
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Yeah, and some purple mortars do no damage at all, while others instant kill. Why dont they all deal medium damage I wonder....


    Also, there was, a long time ago, Season 4, Crossfire, Back then Seasons were a thing to look forward to, and this was no exception.

    One of the features of it was the shooter mode, and removing the ground UI lag that is now back.

    Devs, devs, can we have Season 10, Crossfire 2 again? Please?
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • shadowwraith77shadowwraith77 Member Posts: 6,395 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    oh i know, but im referring specifically to no outside or short term buffs, just EPtS cycling and incoming fire keeping resistance procs stacked, sustained on at all times in combat res cap. the 8472 trait, potentially this trait, cap possibly reached!

    I got lost in this huge thread, but did you, or did you not already figure in a 125 shield power DR?
    tumblr_nq9ec3BSAy1qj6sk2o2_500_zpspkqw0mmk.gif


    Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!

  • spaceeagle20spaceeagle20 Member Posts: 971 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    tpalelena wrote: »
    Thanks for the tip. My runs there always seemed fouled by random chance, like one shot criticals taking down two team members at once (in rep gear, of course) and such.

    Another thing is why I liked Deadly Intent is that it takes up a useless assault slot, not a useful strategic one.

    As for nerfing that.... maybe do not nerf its duration, but nerf the amount of shots it can "reset" .

    So instaed of giving it a timer, give it the ability to reset secondary on primary fire for five times for 30 seconds?

    That way you can use it with charge up weapons too.

    So maybe someone will finally buy the Plasma romulan firethrower ... maybe :D

    I don't know or don't remember how much they'll nerf it but I think that , in PvE, it'll always be more useful than a grenade ... after all , you don't primary shoot all the time if you have to activate all of your other abilities and you don't spacebar in Pve Ground lol
    P58WJe7.jpg


  • zeratkzeratk Member Posts: 409
    edited July 2014
    Well, now that have been more than 5 pages about a single persons inability to finish an EliteSTF on Ground with optional. Stop feeding. That's stuff for the PVE Subforum. How about coming back to topic.
    This is Crypticverse... :mad:
  • semodo1semodo1 Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Short version:

    1) All of the Xindi Traits are under review. Yes, some of the tooltips are wonky. We'll fix them once we decide whether or not to change their functionality. Sorry about that.

    2) The Xindi Kit Modules have already undergone some tweaking, and more may soon follow.

    3) The Tactical Kit Module "Motivation," in particular, has already received the following adjustments internally, which will appear in a future patch:
    - Reduced max duration from 15sec to 10sec
    - Increased cooldown from 30sec to 45sec
    - Reduced healing threshhold (the max amount of healing it can do before expiring) by 33%.
    - No longer stacks when used by multiple teammates

    4) Deadly Intent has also received some tuning:
    - Max duration decreased from 15sec to 8sec, but may now be increased with the Special Forces skill.

    In other words:

    We're listening. We're tuning. What you see isn't always set-in-stone, or even working-as-intended/designed. We'd appreciate it if your feedback could keep that in mind, instead of so frequently jumping to the asinine conclusion that we're "purposefully trying to kill PvP" or otherwise out to somehow harm the playerbase upon which we rely.

    In fairness, if mechanics and items were actually tested correctly, or even to a moderately acceptable standard (by Q & A), if bugged content wasn't rushed out without considering the feedback of players on Tribble ... then you might not have people jumping to conclusions. But as it stands, the problem is at the source, not with the reactions afterwards. Fix the source, fix the "asinine conclusions".
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    To help others, in my Bulwark with about 16.2 turn rate out of red alert, after 4 stacks in red alert it goes up to about 17.8 or so.

    So....((17.8 - 16.2) / 7) / 4) = ~6% per stack there, eh?

    Meh, frtoaster had some decent turn math going back during all my questions around pre-LoR....not sure if there might not be a skill that's affecting that as well, thus throwing off the simpler math I did there.

    Along the lines of whether it is base turn or base turn magnitude, etc, etc, etc...
  • bareelbareel Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Meh, frtoaster had some decent turn math going back during all my questions around pre-LoR....not sure if there might not be a skill that's affecting that as well, thus throwing off the simpler math I did there.

    Along the lines of whether it is base turn or base turn magnitude, etc, etc, etc...

    I had been meaning to consolidate all the odd formulas that have been discovered for quite awhile now into a single post/document. Sadly though I'm too lazy and don't really think it should be the job of the players to do something like that.
  • sohtohsohtoh Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    To help others, in my Bulwark with about 16.2 turn rate out of red alert, after 4 stacks in red alert it goes up to about 17.8 or so.
    So....((17.8 - 16.2) / 7) / 4) = ~6% per stack there, eh?

    Meh, frtoaster had some decent turn math going back during all my questions around pre-LoR....not sure if there might not be a skill that's affecting that as well, thus throwing off the simpler math I did there.

    Along the lines of whether it is base turn or base turn magnitude, etc, etc, etc...

    In my FACR, went from a turn rate of 20.9 to 21.7. Flight Speed from 42.68 to 49.09. I did not have any aura, EPtE, or AtD active. As far as I know it was four stacks. I was in a mission that keeps spawning enemies to keep me in combat,
    "I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    sohtoh wrote: »
    In my FACR, went from a turn rate of 20.8 to 21.7. Flight Speed from 42.68 to 49.09. I did not have any aura, EPtE, or AtD active. As far as I know it was four stacks. I was in a mission that keeps spawning enemies to keep me in combat,

    Hrmm, that leans toward the ~3% angle.
    bareel wrote: »
    I had been meaning to consolidate all the odd formulas that have been discovered for quite awhile now into a single post/document. Sadly though I'm too lazy and don't really think it should be the job of the players to do something like that.

    Damn, I wanted to be Lazy. Can I be Sneezy? :P

    Though, that reminds me of part of the discussion back then. It was about the -3 factor and the issues that caused. Which oddly enough, looking at sohtoh's example...

    (((21.7 - 20.8) / 7) / 4) = ~3.2%
    (((21.7 - 20.8) / (7 - 3)) / 4) = ~5.6%, which gets closer to that 6% seen with the Bulwark.

    Could that -3 issue have returned at some point for certain ships?
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Heh, found a post from where he answered my asking last August (2013)...

    ...so yeah, my wee 3%/6% discussion would need another look - cause the numbers would be off.
    frtoaster wrote: »
    In system space, at 1/4 impulse or full reverse, without any active buffs,

    TR = BTR + BTR * (ITF * SIT / 99 + RCS + helm) + (BTR - 3) * (EP / 100 + ETM),

    where

    TR: turn rate
    BTR: base turn rate
    ITF: value between 0.38 and 0.39 (impulse thrusters factor)
    SIT: Starship Impulse Thrusters skill (0 to 99)
    RCS: bonuses from RCS-like consoles (includes tachyokinetic converter and dilithium mine consoles)
    helm: helmsman trait
    EP: engine power
    ETM: engine [Turn] modifier

    With active buffs, the formula is more complicated, because certain buffs don't stack with each other.
  • sohtohsohtoh Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Hrmm, that leans toward the ~3% angle.



    Damn, I wanted to be Lazy. Can I be Sneezy? :P

    Though, that reminds me of part of the discussion back then. It was about the -3 factor and the issues that caused. Which oddly enough, looking at sohtoh's example...

    (((21.7 - 20.8) / 7) / 4) = ~3.2%
    (((21.7 - 20.8) / (7 - 3)) / 4) = ~5.6%, which gets closer to that 6% seen with the Bulwark.

    Could that -3 issue have returned at some point for certain ships?

    Corrected my original post. It went from 20.9 to 21.7, not 20.8.

    Turn Rates, Full Impulse, Starship Impulse Thrusters: 84, Undine Engine
    15.5 - No Consoles or Traits
    16.2 - Helmsman Trait only
    16.1 - Enhanced Neutronium [+TURN] only
    17.1 - Tachyokinetic Converter only
    17.1 - Hydrodynamic Compensator only

    With all of the above: 20.9
    Momentum Trait brings it up to 21.7 in combat
    Adding Maneuverability Aura: 24.7
    "I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    So it gives 1.8 turn rate ? Does not sound really much.
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • firekeeperhufirekeeperhu Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    tpalelena wrote: »
    So it gives 1.8 turn rate ? Does not sound really much.

    it can be enough if you need more turn and you can sacrifice a trait slot & you don't want to/can't add a console.
    <3 Defiant <3

    RnD and upgrade needs less RNG. Less lottery. Something has to change.
  • sohtohsohtoh Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    So....((17.8 - 16.2) / 7) / 4) = ~6% per stack there, eh?

    Meh, frtoaster had some decent turn math going back during all my questions around pre-LoR....not sure if there might not be a skill that's affecting that as well, thus throwing off the simpler math I did there.

    Along the lines of whether it is base turn or base turn magnitude, etc, etc, etc...
    bareel wrote: »
    I had been meaning to consolidate all the odd formulas that have been discovered for quite awhile now into a single post/document. Sadly though I'm too lazy and don't really think it should be the job of the players to do something like that.
    Hrmm, that leans toward the ~3% angle.



    Damn, I wanted to be Lazy. Can I be Sneezy? :P

    Though, that reminds me of part of the discussion back then. It was about the -3 factor and the issues that caused. Which oddly enough, looking at sohtoh's example...

    (((21.7 - 20.8) / 7) / 4) = ~3.2%
    (((21.7 - 20.8) / (7 - 3)) / 4) = ~5.6%, which gets closer to that 6% seen with the Bulwark.

    Could that -3 issue have returned at some point for certain ships?

    I think the turn rate bonus is from base of 7 (in my case with the FACR.

    7 * 0.03 = 0.21 * 4 = 0.84 + 20.9 = 21.74 or 21.7

    After the patch tomorrow, it should be

    7 * 0.025 = 0.175 * 4 = 0.7 + 20.9 = 21.6
    "I'm not big on telepaths myself. I'm not big on guns either. But if everyone else has them, I want to make sure I can get my hands on the biggest one I can."
  • zeratkzeratk Member Posts: 409
    edited July 2014
    Incoming Patch:

    Patched Version
    Xindi Lock Box Traits:

    Vicious:
    Damage Bonus per stack reduced from 2% to 1.5%
    Crit Severity per stack reduced from 10% to 6%

    Intense Focus:
    Accuracy Bonus per stack reduced from 2% to 1.5%
    Shield Penetration per stack reduced from 2% to 1.5%

    Momentum:
    Turn Rate per stack reduced from 3% to 2.5%
    Flight Speed per stack reduced from 3% to 2.5%

    Pattern Recognition:
    Defense Bonus per stack reduced from 2% to 1.5%
    Shield Hardness per stack reduced from 2% to 1.5%

    Replaced "Resilience" with "Hardness" in tooltip.
    This effect reduces the damage dealt to the shields when they block damage done to your hull.
    This is Crypticverse... :mad:
  • blessedladyboyblessedladyboy Member Posts: 349 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Very annoyed they have nerfed these, why don't this get done before it goes live? They must balance things based on forum posts rather than actually using them in game momentum dedinately didn't need adjusting.

    They should just give all the new stuff to pvpers for free for analysis on holodeck for a week then ditch tribble since it appears to serve no purpose.
  • theuser2021theuser2021 Member Posts: 170 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    IMO, the only one that seemed to need the nerf was vicious. Arguably the additional penetration from Intense focus might have warranted a slight nerf as well, but ironically momentum could have probably used a buff.

    Changing the term resilience to hardness doesn't really help much, it's not like shield hardness makes it any clearer what it means. How about just saying, "reduces damage to shield" lol.
  • ashstorm1ashstorm1 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Not sure if it has been already mentioned in this thread, but Deadly Intent doesn't seem to work for me. I tried it out with two different weapons, and no matter how many times i used the primary attack mode after activating the ability, the secondary attack cooldown never reset.
  • edited July 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    IMO, the only one that seemed to need the nerf was vicious. Arguably the additional penetration from Intense focus might have warranted a slight nerf as well, but ironically momentum could have probably used a buff.

    Changing the term resilience to hardness doesn't really help much, it's not like shield hardness makes it any clearer what it means. How about just saying, "reduces damage to shield" lol.

    when i first saw the 3% on the momentum, i thought it would have to be a buff to the final turn rate, not base like a turn console, because that would be TERRIBLE. and then they nerfed it! lol

    every drop of extra penetrate on beam array, single cannon, and even DHCs if you have 3 or 4 turrets makes a big difference, stacked with DEM3 and you can build to get kills through shields pretty easily.

    i still cant tell what the shield hardness does, if its extra resist worked into the resist formula, well stack enough of that and you cant lose shields if only 1 person is shooting you. if its anti penetration like on resistant shields, well thats pretty good too, but not as universally helpful, just a good counter to the odd penetration build
  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    i still cant tell what the shield hardness does, if its extra resist worked into the resist formula, well stack enough of that and you cant lose shields if only 1 person is shooting you. if its anti penetration like on resistant shields, well thats pretty good too, but not as universally helpful, just a good counter to the odd penetration build

    http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1174371

    "Replaced "Resilience" with "Hardness" in tooltip.
    ---This effect reduces the damage dealt to the shields when they block damage done to your hull."


    That they used the term "Hardness" instead of just what they normally call it, does leave me to wonder if it is Shield Bonus Damage Reduction instead of Shield Damage Reduction...
  • glassguitarglassguitar Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    edited July 2014
    Short version:

    In other words:

    We're listening. We're tuning. What you see isn't always set-in-stone, or even working-as-intended/designed. We'd appreciate it if your feedback could keep that in mind, instead of so frequently jumping to the asinine conclusion that we're "purposefully trying to kill PvP" or otherwise out to somehow harm the playerbase upon which we rely.

    Having spent some time in TS with you during the first Boot Camp preparations I know you are sincere in what you say here. The issue is that from a players standpoint it really does seem that the devs do not consider PvP in the design process.

    STO has such excellent mechanics that it has the potential to be unparalleled for space PvP, but it desperately needs some mechanic that tunes items and powers specifically for PvP OR to tune everything with PvP specifically in mind and hope the PvE playerbase can adjust to slightly more difficult content.

    Personally, I prefer my PvE to be faceroll easy because for me it only exists to grind resources to use in PvP. I might feel differently if PvE were as challenging as it is in some other games. For most players however PvE is what they do. I think they might also appreciatte more of a challenge, but I could be wrong. I see players complaining sometimes that regular story mission content is too hard so perhaps those of us that PvP have a higher bar of difficulty in the first place.

    That said, I realize that the act of balancing gear and powers is tricky and takes time and resources. I think the PvP community would be more understanding of this and less prone to the reaction "they are trying to kill PvP" if we saw some of our other desires filled, such as:

    New maps.
    Matchmaking system.
    New types of challenges:
    3 vs 3
    Defend the starbase
    Territory control
    Vanilla PvP

    In closing, I know that you personally care a lot about STO PvP and feel like you are being dissed by these type of comments, but I think at some point the dev team as a whole needs to realize that they aren't intended as bashing, but honest concern for a game we love that we see slowly falling apart frmo a PvP perspective.
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