So, i may be the only person who bothered to level the current R&D all the way to the top... what happens to my progress? do i stay the top level or was all that just for kicks?
Badhandle, there maybe something but you will NOT get max level crafting on the new system because you are a max level crafter on the old one. It is a brand new system so everyone will start on the same page.
Matt Miracle
Fleet Commander in Chief [Rank 7] for Covenant of Honor; a FED T5 Starbase
House Leader [Rank 7] for Honorable House of Mor'gue; a KDF T3 Starbase Find us at CovenantofHonor.com. My Twitter handle; @jmattmiracle
Where are people getting these very-very small hard-drives? 128 GB drives have not been made for years. Is this a laptop, tablet, etc..?
You know what? Yeah, you are right. I didn't read this part of your statement. Self-control does have to play into the equation.
"SW: TOR" and "Elder Scrolls Online" require around 20 GB of space each. Most single-player and offline games require 20-30 GBs of storage space.
SSD(Solid State Drives) are mostly very small drives but have extremely fast Read/Write times. SSD are basically RAM sticks bundled up into Hard Drive form. Its best to have a SSD and a HDD and put your OS on the SSD for near instantaneous start up times but keep the rest of your stuff on a regular HDD. SSD are still quite expensive, costs over $400 just for a 1TB SSD.
Recovering from the Undine attack, Commander Jenna Romaine proposes a new surge of research and development. Undercover agents will likely to have gained access to our research plans, so it is our job to develop new advanced technology with our scientists and engineers. Read the proposal for state-of-the-art technology in the latest entry of the Season 9 News Dev Blog series.
As part of the new Research and Development system that were introducing in Season 9.5, were updating the kinds of raw materials that youll use. Designer Jesse Heinig Read more details about how the new system works in the latest entry of the Season 9 News Dev Blog series.
In our three-part blog, System Designer Jeff AdjudicatorHawk Hamilton shares more information about the new schools captains can take part in with crafting update coming soon! Read more details about how the schools function in the latest entry of the Season 9 News Dev Blog series.
The system looks really good actually and I can't wait to play around with it some more. However, Beams, Cannons, Ground Weapons and Shields just don't sound right as R&D titles. IMO I think you should use something like Tactical Systems for Cannons, Particle Generation for Beams, Defensive Systems for Shields and Operational Assets for Ground Weapons. It would just make is seem more scientific as a Research and Development model. I would also like to see Propulsion Systems for Engines. Engineering and Scientific Research work well and Projectiles is ok. I would also like to see a Medical Research that encompasses the Hypos and ground buffing items.
Not to say these are the only titles you should use but something along these lines just to make them sound more R&D.
Where are people getting these very-very small hard-drives? 128 GB drives have not been made for years. Is this a laptop, tablet, etc..?
SSD = Solid State Drive
HDD = Hard Disk Drive
Two completely seperate things.
SSDs use flash memory like on a USB thumb drive, and typically have ~500MBps read/write speed maximum. They are much more expensive than HDDs and come in lower capacities due to the cost of high-quality flash chips. They are also more durable than HDDs and can withstand alot of abuse without breaking.
HDDs are the old type of drives that use magnetic spinning platters, and max out at around 80-130 MBps read/write speed. They are also fragile, if you drop them or nudge them while they're operating they can break. They're cheaper, as they use a mature technology, and have a larger capacity, but they also use more power than SSDs.
In trying to make doffing easier for the female podcasters of this world you have actually gone backwards.
Doffing needs to stay in categories,get rid of those big icons with shiny planets in,atm doffing looks like a big wall of text.
As for trying to make it easier ? its actually harder now,not for me ,but for those people who couldn't make Mk12 consoles via childrens toys doff mission,this will turn them off even more.
More clicking and window opening than doffing atm
Yea i know its in an alpha state but its miles and miles away from where doffing will be used.
i doff every day,if it stays like that i will stop doffing,maybe even stop playing...no its not an i quit post,just saying that you're going the wrong way.
How many others will leave for that mess that is currently doffing on tribble ?
plz plz plz revert doffing to what it is now,its not hard,no i'm not frightened of change.
If people couldn't work out holodecks doffing atm,maybe its not the system but maybe,just maybe its them ?
In trying to make doffing easier for the female podcasters of this world you have actually gone backwards.
Doffing needs to stay in categories,get rid of those big icons with shiny planets in,atm doffing looks like a big wall of text.
As for trying to make it easier ? its actually harder now,not for me ,but for those people who couldn't make Mk12 consoles via childrens toys doff mission,this will turn them off even more.
More clicking and window opening than doffing atm
Yea i know its in an alpha state but its miles and miles away from where doffing will be used.
i doff every day,if it stays like that i will stop doffing,maybe even stop playing...no its not an i quit post,just saying that you're going the wrong way.
How many others will leave for that mess that is currently doffing on tribble ?
plz plz plz revert doffing to what it is now,its not hard,no i'm not frightened of change.
If people couldn't work out holodecks doffing atm,maybe its not the system but maybe,just maybe its them ?
We DO fear change. The doff interface is absolutely and completely 100% perfect as it is now. There is zero reason to change it.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
We DO fear change. The doff interface is absolutely and completely 100% perfect as it is now. There is zero reason to change it.
Primary reason for this change: Gateway integration. Remember, the Gateway is practically intended to be used on touchscreen devices, such as cell phones, where the UI scales to the size of the device.
Having a 100x100 pixel box on an iPhone 4S or Galaxy-x Mini = my kiddo will overlap the box with her fingernail. And I'm talking my 9 year old, not my 19 year old...
I do say that some things - sorting by primary CXP award, showing and sorting by trait, etc., need to come back to the DOff interface. Also, this is a chance to add QoL improvements - pick purples instead of whites, recommend by crit chance instead of success, etc.
Of course, the fact that we're in early alpha means that these things are potentially coming back or in. Same with price tweaks on crafting, the mod changing projects (want [ACC]x3? 3 modifier projects later, you'll have it...) more and more of the fancy modifiers (they released beams and cannons with [ARC] just this last trip to tribble, wondering if we might see [AUX] in the future?) etc. etc.
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
...Beams, Cannons, Ground Weapons and Shields just don't sound right as R&D titles. IMO I think you should use something like Tactical Systems for Cannons, Particle Generation for Beams, Defensive Systems for Shields and Operational Assets for Ground Weapons. It would just make is seem more scientific as a Research and Development model...
Agreed +100%.
Please add more "flavor text" like described above to the crafting system.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
I popped over yesterday to take a look at crafting and wound up doing other things and playing with the DOFF system.
Some needed changes:
Please please Bring back the missions separated by type of XP. Especially when trying to focus on certain DOFF missions for XP (AKA Diplomatic) the new system is painful.
Maybe with time it'll be different but currently it 'feels' clunky. Specifically changing from the 'recommended' officers to one's you choose. I'll just say that given a choice the current 'live' DOFF layout is much more friendly than the one on Tribble. It looks like it's trying to be made nicer looking BUT lacks the functionality of the current system for lack of better way of putting it. The DOFF list is nice especially when you want to choose which officers to send and also the break down by type of mission was really a nice thing. To me it feels like the good was gotten rid of in the process of trying to make it look newer and sleeker.
As to the new crafting I agree with some of the posts before. If we can't pick the traits of the items we're after (rare, dmgx3 etc...) then the new crafting system pretty much just becomes a nerf of the exploration clusters if removed (on a side note does this also mean the KDF defense missions are going since they're setup almost exactly like cluster areas? No I'm not trying to stir up panic but asking in sincerity as it's one of the main ways I level my KDF chars so I can skip certain missions along the way.)
The system looks really good actually and I can't wait to play around with it some more. However, Beams, Cannons, Ground Weapons and Shields just don't sound right as R&D titles. IMO I think you should use something like Tactical Systems for Cannons, Particle Generation for Beams, Defensive Systems for Shields and Operational Assets for Ground Weapons. It would just make is seem more scientific as a Research and Development model. I would also like to see Propulsion Systems for Engines. Engineering and Scientific Research work well and Projectiles is ok. I would also like to see a Medical Research that encompasses the Hypos and ground buffing items.
Not to say these are the only titles you should use but something along these lines just to make them sound more R&D.
Agreed! Medical would be a really nice addition, but I can see that being added to the broadened "ground" category you describe.
It would be a small thing, perhaps, but one that would a nice coat of polish on the whole system. Make it sound a little more Trek.
Then again, I'm also in favor of adding more lore/flavor text to the tooltips for pretty much every item in the game. That would be no small undertaking...
OK, you wanted me to test it before commenting, I have done so. I got 3 things to level 2, 1 to level 1 and gave up out of boredom, but here's what I've learned so far
random rewards = frustration
massive jump in XP requirement from level 2 to 3 = grind = more frustration
making components before equipment = no problem
not knowing which components are needed = frustration
making components 1 at a time = frustration
slow crafting times = irrelevant
so to sum up
we need a way to guarantee rewards, make multiple components at one time, a way to know what components are required for the maximum level you can make and a much smaller grind
As it stands now the proposed crafting system is much worse than what it will replace. I know the intention is to get people to spend more dilithium but right now, what is being proposed is not worth investing the time in
I don't attack constructive criticism. I attack whining. I attack entitlement. I attack useless moaning and groaning. I attack trolling. I attack flaming. I attack all sorts of things that the mods would probably prefer that I don't...and yes, I do get my warnings from them for it. I'm not above the rules, so if I cross a line - I get dinged for it just like anybody else.
There's a difference between disagreeing with what somebody says and attacking them. I've got my opinions just like everybody else does. I'm going to argue them just like everybody else does.
Mocking though? I pretty much laid out the difference in the very post you quoted...
I'm going to mock the first but not the second. Doesn't mean I won't argue with the second if I disagree, but there's a major difference in how I reply to somebody doing the first and somebody doing the second.
Somebody saying, "This sucks, what's on Holodeck is better." has provided little to no information. What sucks about it? Everything? That's not possible, because parts of it are on what is on Holodeck so if those parts suck on Tribble then they suck on Holodeck as well...meaning that Holodeck's version can't be 100% perfect, if part of the complaint about the Tribble version is the same as the Holodeck version.
What sucks about it? What could suck less about it? What's preferred on the Holodeck version that's no longer there in the Tribble version? It's entirely possible to offer a great deal of negative feedback in a constructive manner...
...and I guess that's where the mocking comes into play, because with all the nonsensical QQ - it begins to give the impression that anybody with a complaint about anything, being negative about anything is just a whiner.
Haters <---> Fanboys
Those aren't the only two groups. There are plenty of us that are in the middle there, we like certain things - we hate certain things. Personally, I'd like to be able to offer that feedback without being dumped into some group...
...and all the "There's nothing wrong!" and all the "Everything sucks!" folks just make that much harder to do.
Both of those groups could totally TRIBBLE off and disappear, and I'd be a happy clam...cause then the rest of us could continue arguing toward a better game and not be mislabeled into either of those groups.
This is why you're one of my favorite posters on the forums. The forums need more objective people who aren't afraid to tell it how it is and let people know when their reality check has bounced.
Players need to be able to police themselves instead of needing a babysitter like Bluegeek, Askray, Smirk, or Trendy.
I don't know if it's been said, but removing clusters from the game means Omega Leonis will lose 8 options from the map, and lots of daily/dil options linked to them for KDF players.
But even if your skill, DOFF, Catalyst guarantees you that Purple...meh...you're still facing those random mods. Guess it's a Plan A and Plan B sort of gamble, eh? Gambling with Plan A that it's something you want and gambling with Plan B that it's something somebody else might want...otherwise, you're looking at vendor trash.
Yup, this, and the inability to reverse-engineer technology (deconstructing, etc in other MMOs) for XP and maybe some materials... those are the reasons I truly dislike the current system. Not a fan of the tiles, and really not a fan of the doffing getting caught in the UI crossfire, but the Palked school of design (Dumb Luck) is my biggest issue with the revamp as it stands.
So, to make this crafting system viable from my perspective:
1) Finish the promised [Mod] customization. I don't care about crafting loot drops for myself, but I'd be willing to grind to be able to make the things I actually want.
2) Allow for reverse-engineering of technology. If you find a nice, high tech version of something, why can't you take it apart to see how it works and learn something in the process? [EDIT*] There have been continued patent violations rulings concerning UIs in recent years that reflect that this is still a viable method of acquiring, duplicating, and occasionally advancing technology. While I don't expect disassembling a Phaser Beam Array Mk III to be worth much crafting XP, taking apart a Polarized Tetryon Beam Array Mk XI or Rapid Reload Transphasic Torpedo Launcher Mk XI should be both possible and rewarding as both have special features not available on conventional munitions. Plus, it serves to remove EC's from the economy as anything broken down can't be sold to a vendor.
Just those two and I'll be okay with the new system. I'd still dislike replacing the ~5s progress bar in the current system with timers measured in hours in the new system (with added Finish Now "feature"), the bulky and inefficient UI, the overflow of said UI into doffing, the loss of Clusters and resulting introduction of further inefficiencies to doffing ("Scimitarding" to the top of sector space is going to be irritating), the massive time suck that has been added (making components + long timers + farming materials in the new system vs progress bar + farming materials in the old system), sending helper monkeys (I mean doffs) to do the crafting instead of DIY, etc... but all of that would be tolerable if I could actually make what I wanted and reverse engineer loot drops.
There is good in the new system. I like the addition of the separate inventory tab to contain crafting materials, I like the ability to make relevant equipment, I like the unique [Mods] and items that are being tinkered with... but the thing I like most is that it's still not even into the beta version yet. The chance to provide feedback before the system is finalized, the ability to say why it doesn't meet my minimum requirements, those are things we haven't gotten the opportunity to do in previous seasons/expansions. I still remember the loss of dilithium and loot from the STFs, and that it took a surprisingly long time to put back anything approaching what was there beforehand... despite feedback from players testing on Tribble. This being released so early gives the devs time to actually respond to concerns, and also serves as a learning experience to them and us.
In the future, maybe the devs will post not that "Season 9.5 will be on Tribble soon and will be live in late July" (or whatever is being tested), but instead that an alpha version will be available for testing and feedback. Similarly, maybe we can take the WIP notice in the Tribble Patch Notes and accept that what we are seeing needs feedback, but isn't what will show up on Holodeck regardless of the feedback provided. Maybe it's overly optimistic, but it would be nice if this turns out to be a new process of game system design that actually asks, "What do you want out of this?" and uses our answers to provide it. I want to appreciate the effort put into S9.5.
[*EDIT] Removed a reference to early anatomical research in Scotland; that was kind of dark, so you can look up the details on your own if you choose. It does refer to taking things apart to see how they work, though.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Crafting is near and dear to me, so I'm keeping a very watchful eye on what's being updated on Tribble.
There are differing opinions going on in this thread, and I like hearing both sides of the coin. Each side has an argument that I honestly get, and it's helped me think about my opinions and what's going on.
Clusters: I used to farm samples in there all the time before unreplicatable materials were introduced; that's when I stopped crafting completely. Before then, I crafted all the time and was maxed. But samples were the only reason why I ever into them; I farmed everything in space and never actually did missions. Their removal does not affect my gameplay in any way. With that being said, I don't think it's ever a good idea to remove something that customers still use without having a viable replacement (that's preferably better than before). I also really like the idea of having the clusters be Foundry maps.
Their removal makes me hope that with X2 there is will be something more exploration-related coming (Delta quadrant) that is going to replace them, so I'm personally not up in arms about it. But I still think it's an overall poor decision to make, provided they had announced whether or not something was going to replace them before removing them. I get NDA's and secrecy, but I honestly don't buy "install size" either. There are other reasons...which won't really be revealed to us until they want us to know.
The only way I could buy the install size argument is if X2 is going to be HUGE.
Bottom line: although it doesn't personally affect me, it's not a smart business move. Communication with customers is key, and Cryptic has definitely been a mixed bag in that department. I'm hopeful that their removal will be followed by something better in X2, but that remains to be seen.
Dilithium/Crafting: I don't mind spending money on dilithium, as long as I have direct control over what I'm receiving in exchange for that dilithium (and what I'm receiving is worth my money). Cryptic has said modifiers will come later, just not in 9.5. Okay, I can live with that...provided they actually come, and not at some distant point in the future. I don't mind waiting until X2, but leaving it in a modifier-less state for a longer period of time means Cryptic has to wait longer to make money off me in crafting.
If what I heard in the podcast is true and this really is an "alpha", that should have been communicated either before the release of the build on Tribble, or in conjunction with the release. I believe that the playerbase would have been much for forgiving if they had known that. Waiting to tell us that until after the negative reaction smells too much like damage control. Since we do have some time until it's officially released, I'm cautiously optimistic about this actually being an "alpha" and that changes will be made based on our feedback. But again, whether or not that actually ends up being true remains to be seen.
If what I heard in the podcast is true and this really is an "alpha", that should have been communicated either before the release of the build on Tribble, or in conjunction with the release. I believe that the playerbase would have been much for forgiving if they had known that. Waiting to tell us that until after the negative reaction smells too much like damage control. Since we do have some time until it's officially released, I'm cautiously optimistic about this actually being an "alpha" and that changes will be made based on our feedback. But again, whether or not that actually ends up being true remains to be seen.
Honestly... ANY tribble build should be considered as such until it gets pushed to Live. It's what Tribble is for.
Honestly... ANY tribble build should be considered as such until it gets pushed to Live. It's what Tribble is for.
I agree. But that hasn't always proven true.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hater. I'm also not a fanboy, either. I'm somewhere in between; that position can fluctuate depending upon a lot of different factors. In which direction that position will move is dependent upon what happens in the near future.
the current crafting system is noting more than a glorified slots machine.
when implemented it will add no value to the game. as of right now it's better to keep the old system. yes the old system is a glorified shop but at least you know what you'll be getting up ahead.
it's not all terrible the ui is good, the approach is kinda good and using doff was the right thing to do.
however since i have little to no control over the outcome it's not a crafting system. you just put materials in and a semi-random item drops out that is more or less how a slots machine functions.
it's only generating semi-random loot for an alternative price. if it was a true crafting system i'd have full control over the outcome. the crafting system should functionally much more closely resemble that of ESO or GW2.
when crafting items we need to be able to control the following factors
Item Type
MK
Rarity
Modifiers
right now i can only control the item type. Several MKs cannot be selected but at least there is limited control over that. Rarity is determined by a dice roll by the system i can influence the odds but in the end have no control.
modifiers is where crafting should shine but i can't even control it.
custom making items should be the corner stone of crafting. that would probably make crafted items more popular that found ones. but by allowing us to change modifier and deconstruct them for crafting materials this should not be a problem.
change crafting to
give us full control over all aspects of the outcome
allow us to change modifier on found items
deconstruct found items for crafting materials
my true concern here is that you can reach level 20 in a school of crafting and then still get a white quality item because of a bad roll by the system that you have no control over!
that can happen It's specifically sated that chances will never be 100%.
actually some people have been saying that the crafting I want is just a shop. I've been giving that some thought and concluded that it's true. crafting can't even be anything else. Crafing is to a EC/Dilitium shop what a Tailor is to a fashion shop. both are shops that sell cloths but only the tailor crafts them to perfectly fit you.
only by controlling every aspect can you tailor make the items for yourself and your build. that the hallmark of a truly great crafting system. the one that when you fully master it will allow you to tailor make items.
as of right now I don't see that happen, actually I see us getting a system that the furthest removed from that as it can be.
As I've said in other threads: I'm not going to gamble Dilithium for a "Chance" of crafting something I want. :mad:
A dictionary definition of "to craft":
to make or manufacture (an object or objects) with great skill and care.
Not:
to make or manufacture (an object or objects) by rolling a dice and hoping that you get what you desire.
I cannot see this system being changed, unfortunately.
it's actually already implied in the very word that you shouldn't be relying on random roll but still you do
THE NEW CRAFTING SYSTEM IS TERRA-BAD First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
the current crafting system is noting more than a glorified slots machine...
First, I like everything in your post.
Second, the best rpg crafting systems that exists can be found in "Dragon Age", "Diablo II", and "Neverwinter Nights".
When I think of crafting systems, the first thing that comes to mind is 'weapon and gear customization'. Within the "Dragon Age" series, you gather or buy various sets of artifacts and runes. Players use the runes to enhance the functionality of certain gear. While the rune drops are random, player can buy specific ones from shops. Players have full control over the outcome.
"Star Trek: Online's" crafting system, as you know, relies too much upon fate.
My suggestions:
(1) Failed attempts at making a certain level item would not be consequential. Instead of players losing precious resources, the system should return them to the crafter.
(2) Customizations should not be permanent. Players should have the ability to remove artifacts freely, so they can test various types of customizations.
(3) Crafting items should solely rely upon skill. Within the layout of the character sheet, players should find a third section dedicated to crafting. Instead of creating a bloated system, the crafting skills can fall below the ground ones. Space, ground, and crafting. As a player moves up to level fifty, the individual should have the option to add points to the crafting section. Other words, once a player gets to levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, and 50, the individual will get a specific number of points to level a chosen specialization.
(4) Since players have to buy and/or discover crafting artifacts, the cost to create an item should be 50-55% lower than market value. Instead of charging people 20,000 dilithium for a crafted item, the price to buy them should hover around 9,000 to 10,000 dilithium. 9,000 to 24,000 dilithium is the current market value of rep, fleet, and dilithium store items. Why would players need to pay 100% for a crafted item, which they have to put together themselves? Players are doing all of the work.
(5) Place a price cap on lower level crafting resources on the exchange. Since entry level players are limited in resources, they need an affordable alternative to mission drops. I am referring to the common, uncommon, rare, and very rare resources, which are needed to craft MK I - MK IX items.
(6) Make crafted items 'bound to account on equip'.
(7) Limit timegates from one to two hour intervals.
(8) Allow multiple same level items to be crafted at the same time.
(9) If Cryptic is going to remove the clusters, I would make an entire sector devoted to resource gathering. Players get to co-op or solo missions in a sector, which contains at least eight to ten different mini maps. You can also add a few 'open door' (not open world) PvP maps. 'Open Door' = No queue.
SO I used the crafting system for the first time on tribble.
Level 21 character could not do the crafting at all. Even though I had the ability to do the material mini-game, I could not keep what I won. The R&D Storage Tab had no blocks in it to store the material in. And I couldn't put the materials in normal storage either. SO I wasted my time with the material gain. The funny thing is that I could look at the R&D DOff Tab and look at what I can craft.
SO I hoped onto the level 50 character and it can do all of the R&D stuff. I found it annoying that when I went to craft a beam weapon, if I selected a Mk level I didn't have the materials to do, there wasn't a back button to change the Mk. I found this incredibly difficult and time consuming to exit and then re-enter the crafting block for that weapon. I also would like to see a way where we can state a quatity of components to build and a quantity of weapons to build. I also would like for the jobs to autocomplete instead of having to go back and click a button to get the stuff. It's very annoying and interferes with playing the game itself.
I also noticed that the DOff interface had changed. And the only thing that I have a problem with is the fact that the commendation exp are not grouped together and clearly marked as such. If I only want to do Military missions I have to waste time looking at each mission and figure out the rewards to see if it gives that kind of exp.
That's my first run through it. More later as I try it out further.
I also noticed that the DOff interface had changed. And the only thing that I have a problem with is the fact that the commendation exp are not grouped together and clearly marked as such. If I only want to do Military missions I have to waste time looking at each mission and figure out the rewards to see if it gives that kind of exp.
That's my first run through it. More later as I try it out further.
You mean you can't search by department heads anymore?!? gah.....
You mean you can't search by department heads anymore?!? gah.....
You can search by your department heads. But you can't search by COmmendations. SO in the list you might see a military followed by a science then followed by diplomatic. No ordering of the comendation exp you are going to get.
I agree with you. Any view other then Cryptic thinking or doesn't kiss Cryptic behind is viewed negative. Although Cryptic says they want players feedback.
Seriously. I think if someone isn't a a "Yes. Ma'am", Cryptic look at negatively.
Not quite that bad. Pretty much everything about crafting and the doff UI has gotten negative feedback from me, with a couple exceptions... and I can still find my posts [EDIT] other than the one referencing Right Said Fred that added nothing to the actual conversation beyond a little humor; that one deserved to go, I'm ashamed of even remembering that song :P [/EDIT]. I think the distinction that CaptainSmirk is trying to make is that: you can provide feedback; you cannot insult the devs or other forum users. I have seen a few posts that were insulting kicking about on both sides of the discussion, and they're still there; the posts I have seen disappear contained actual insults. Basically, avoid ad hominem arguments and you should be fine.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong CaptainSmirk)
I for one like very, very little about the new system... and that is by far outweighed by what makes the game worse (from my perspective). For me, the random chance and inability to reverse engineer technologies are what tips the scales to make the new system (both crafting and the doffing UI collateral damage) as it stands a waste of developer resources. That does not mean I dislike the devs. There is a difference, so I tell said devs what I dislike about the new system in the hopes that it can be made better. I don't insult the devs, because they are the ones that might just fix it before it comes to Holodeck.
With each passing day I wonder if I stepped into an alternate reality. The Cubs win the world series. Donald Trump is President. Britain leaves the EU. STO gets a dedicated PvP season. Engineers are "out of control" in STO.
Quotes from the marketing department (aka on Arc's Star Trek Online page)
"Explore strange new worlds and seek out new life and new civilizations in a vast, expanding universe."
"...our designers can focus less on a games nuts and bolts and more on creating a game that captures Star Treks essence, guaranteeing that both longtime fans of Star Trek and people new to the universe will feel at home."
I'm logging into Tribble now, to double check what I've heard here...but if these forums are correct, I'd suggest a sit-down with the marketing folks.
Quotes from the marketing department (aka on Arc's Star Trek Online page)
"Explore strange new worlds and seek out new life and new civilizations in a vast, expanding universe."
"...our designers can focus less on a games nuts and bolts and more on creating a game that captures Star Treks essence, guaranteeing that both longtime fans of Star Trek and people new to the universe will feel at home."
I'm logging into Tribble now, to double check what I've heard here...but if these forums are correct, I'd suggest a sit-down with the marketing folks.
The truth can be found somewhere between what marketing says and some of the complaints made by players...it's an internal truth, do you enjoy the game? Nobody can tell you if you do or do not...only you can know whether you do.
In the future, maybe the devs will post not that "Season 9.5 will be on Tribble soon and will be live in late July" (or whatever is being tested), but instead that an alpha version will be available for testing and feedback.
This. And, to be more direct with my own related opinion, don't make a hard deadline. Don't give a date at all.
Yes, I realize that corporations like timelines and hard deadlines and "drop-dead" dates.
But this is a QoL update for us. Make the shipping date "when it's ready" and define "ready" as not getting any more bug reports except extreme corner cases, and a large cross-section of us are happy. (I'd never suggest "most" or "all" of us being happy; this is the forums. You could ship gold bars to all our houses and SOMEBODY would complain about the color of the delivery truck.)
Yes. You will get criticism for not giving a date. Yes, you will still have some people who don't like it, because they've decided they aren't going to ahead of time. Yes, a bug will poke its ugly green head up out of the code somewhere. But a smooth rollout, no next-day "oh s&^$" patches, and the usual "Cryptic f^$%s everything up" crew being silenced would be a pretty decent definition of success, at least in my opinion. Isn't that worth giving up the traditional notion of a ship date?
One thing I would like to see with the new crafting system is same material should come in as normal drops. Also for those that have already completed the old or current system should get a crafting percentage bonus.
Comments
Badhandle, there maybe something but you will NOT get max level crafting on the new system because you are a max level crafter on the old one. It is a brand new system so everyone will start on the same page.
Find us at CovenantofHonor.com. My Twitter handle; @jmattmiracle
SSD(Solid State Drives) are mostly very small drives but have extremely fast Read/Write times. SSD are basically RAM sticks bundled up into Hard Drive form. Its best to have a SSD and a HDD and put your OS on the SSD for near instantaneous start up times but keep the rest of your stuff on a regular HDD. SSD are still quite expensive, costs over $400 just for a 1TB SSD.
ROFL...
So I won't be able to send hate mail about lockboxes, bugs, glitches, the EP, I quit propaganda, or KDF discrimination anymore?
There is no fun in that!
Will they be added to crafting, or to Romulan reputation?
The system looks really good actually and I can't wait to play around with it some more. However, Beams, Cannons, Ground Weapons and Shields just don't sound right as R&D titles. IMO I think you should use something like Tactical Systems for Cannons, Particle Generation for Beams, Defensive Systems for Shields and Operational Assets for Ground Weapons. It would just make is seem more scientific as a Research and Development model. I would also like to see Propulsion Systems for Engines. Engineering and Scientific Research work well and Projectiles is ok. I would also like to see a Medical Research that encompasses the Hypos and ground buffing items.
Not to say these are the only titles you should use but something along these lines just to make them sound more R&D.
SSD = Solid State Drive
HDD = Hard Disk Drive
Two completely seperate things.
SSDs use flash memory like on a USB thumb drive, and typically have ~500MBps read/write speed maximum. They are much more expensive than HDDs and come in lower capacities due to the cost of high-quality flash chips. They are also more durable than HDDs and can withstand alot of abuse without breaking.
HDDs are the old type of drives that use magnetic spinning platters, and max out at around 80-130 MBps read/write speed. They are also fragile, if you drop them or nudge them while they're operating they can break. They're cheaper, as they use a mature technology, and have a larger capacity, but they also use more power than SSDs.
Pretty common knowledge.
Doffing needs to stay in categories,get rid of those big icons with shiny planets in,atm doffing looks like a big wall of text.
As for trying to make it easier ? its actually harder now,not for me ,but for those people who couldn't make Mk12 consoles via childrens toys doff mission,this will turn them off even more.
More clicking and window opening than doffing atm
Yea i know its in an alpha state but its miles and miles away from where doffing will be used.
i doff every day,if it stays like that i will stop doffing,maybe even stop playing...no its not an i quit post,just saying that you're going the wrong way.
How many others will leave for that mess that is currently doffing on tribble ?
plz plz plz revert doffing to what it is now,its not hard,no i'm not frightened of change.
If people couldn't work out holodecks doffing atm,maybe its not the system but maybe,just maybe its them ?
We DO fear change. The doff interface is absolutely and completely 100% perfect as it is now. There is zero reason to change it.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Primary reason for this change: Gateway integration. Remember, the Gateway is practically intended to be used on touchscreen devices, such as cell phones, where the UI scales to the size of the device.
Having a 100x100 pixel box on an iPhone 4S or Galaxy-x Mini = my kiddo will overlap the box with her fingernail. And I'm talking my 9 year old, not my 19 year old...
I do say that some things - sorting by primary CXP award, showing and sorting by trait, etc., need to come back to the DOff interface. Also, this is a chance to add QoL improvements - pick purples instead of whites, recommend by crit chance instead of success, etc.
Of course, the fact that we're in early alpha means that these things are potentially coming back or in. Same with price tweaks on crafting, the mod changing projects (want [ACC]x3? 3 modifier projects later, you'll have it...) more and more of the fancy modifiers (they released beams and cannons with [ARC] just this last trip to tribble, wondering if we might see [AUX] in the future?) etc. etc.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Please add more "flavor text" like described above to the crafting system.
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Playing STO since Feb 2010.
I popped over yesterday to take a look at crafting and wound up doing other things and playing with the DOFF system.
Some needed changes:
Please please Bring back the missions separated by type of XP. Especially when trying to focus on certain DOFF missions for XP (AKA Diplomatic) the new system is painful.
Maybe with time it'll be different but currently it 'feels' clunky. Specifically changing from the 'recommended' officers to one's you choose. I'll just say that given a choice the current 'live' DOFF layout is much more friendly than the one on Tribble. It looks like it's trying to be made nicer looking BUT lacks the functionality of the current system for lack of better way of putting it. The DOFF list is nice especially when you want to choose which officers to send and also the break down by type of mission was really a nice thing. To me it feels like the good was gotten rid of in the process of trying to make it look newer and sleeker.
As to the new crafting I agree with some of the posts before. If we can't pick the traits of the items we're after (rare, dmgx3 etc...) then the new crafting system pretty much just becomes a nerf of the exploration clusters if removed (on a side note does this also mean the KDF defense missions are going since they're setup almost exactly like cluster areas? No I'm not trying to stir up panic but asking in sincerity as it's one of the main ways I level my KDF chars so I can skip certain missions along the way.)
Agreed! Medical would be a really nice addition, but I can see that being added to the broadened "ground" category you describe.
It would be a small thing, perhaps, but one that would a nice coat of polish on the whole system. Make it sound a little more Trek.
Then again, I'm also in favor of adding more lore/flavor text to the tooltips for pretty much every item in the game. That would be no small undertaking...
random rewards = frustration
massive jump in XP requirement from level 2 to 3 = grind = more frustration
making components before equipment = no problem
not knowing which components are needed = frustration
making components 1 at a time = frustration
slow crafting times = irrelevant
so to sum up
we need a way to guarantee rewards, make multiple components at one time, a way to know what components are required for the maximum level you can make and a much smaller grind
As it stands now the proposed crafting system is much worse than what it will replace. I know the intention is to get people to spend more dilithium but right now, what is being proposed is not worth investing the time in
This is why you're one of my favorite posters on the forums. The forums need more objective people who aren't afraid to tell it how it is and let people know when their reality check has bounced.
Players need to be able to police themselves instead of needing a babysitter like Bluegeek, Askray, Smirk, or Trendy.
So that's not cool.
Yup, this, and the inability to reverse-engineer technology (deconstructing, etc in other MMOs) for XP and maybe some materials... those are the reasons I truly dislike the current system. Not a fan of the tiles, and really not a fan of the doffing getting caught in the UI crossfire, but the Palked school of design (Dumb Luck) is my biggest issue with the revamp as it stands.
So, to make this crafting system viable from my perspective:
1) Finish the promised [Mod] customization. I don't care about crafting loot drops for myself, but I'd be willing to grind to be able to make the things I actually want.
2) Allow for reverse-engineering of technology. If you find a nice, high tech version of something, why can't you take it apart to see how it works and learn something in the process? [EDIT*] There have been continued patent violations rulings concerning UIs in recent years that reflect that this is still a viable method of acquiring, duplicating, and occasionally advancing technology. While I don't expect disassembling a Phaser Beam Array Mk III to be worth much crafting XP, taking apart a Polarized Tetryon Beam Array Mk XI or Rapid Reload Transphasic Torpedo Launcher Mk XI should be both possible and rewarding as both have special features not available on conventional munitions. Plus, it serves to remove EC's from the economy as anything broken down can't be sold to a vendor.
Just those two and I'll be okay with the new system. I'd still dislike replacing the ~5s progress bar in the current system with timers measured in hours in the new system (with added Finish Now "feature"), the bulky and inefficient UI, the overflow of said UI into doffing, the loss of Clusters and resulting introduction of further inefficiencies to doffing ("Scimitarding" to the top of sector space is going to be irritating), the massive time suck that has been added (making components + long timers + farming materials in the new system vs progress bar + farming materials in the old system), sending helper monkeys (I mean doffs) to do the crafting instead of DIY, etc... but all of that would be tolerable if I could actually make what I wanted and reverse engineer loot drops.
There is good in the new system. I like the addition of the separate inventory tab to contain crafting materials, I like the ability to make relevant equipment, I like the unique [Mods] and items that are being tinkered with... but the thing I like most is that it's still not even into the beta version yet. The chance to provide feedback before the system is finalized, the ability to say why it doesn't meet my minimum requirements, those are things we haven't gotten the opportunity to do in previous seasons/expansions. I still remember the loss of dilithium and loot from the STFs, and that it took a surprisingly long time to put back anything approaching what was there beforehand... despite feedback from players testing on Tribble. This being released so early gives the devs time to actually respond to concerns, and also serves as a learning experience to them and us.
In the future, maybe the devs will post not that "Season 9.5 will be on Tribble soon and will be live in late July" (or whatever is being tested), but instead that an alpha version will be available for testing and feedback. Similarly, maybe we can take the WIP notice in the Tribble Patch Notes and accept that what we are seeing needs feedback, but isn't what will show up on Holodeck regardless of the feedback provided. Maybe it's overly optimistic, but it would be nice if this turns out to be a new process of game system design that actually asks, "What do you want out of this?" and uses our answers to provide it. I want to appreciate the effort put into S9.5.
[*EDIT] Removed a reference to early anatomical research in Scotland; that was kind of dark, so you can look up the details on your own if you choose. It does refer to taking things apart to see how they work, though.
There are differing opinions going on in this thread, and I like hearing both sides of the coin. Each side has an argument that I honestly get, and it's helped me think about my opinions and what's going on.
Clusters: I used to farm samples in there all the time before unreplicatable materials were introduced; that's when I stopped crafting completely. Before then, I crafted all the time and was maxed. But samples were the only reason why I ever into them; I farmed everything in space and never actually did missions. Their removal does not affect my gameplay in any way. With that being said, I don't think it's ever a good idea to remove something that customers still use without having a viable replacement (that's preferably better than before). I also really like the idea of having the clusters be Foundry maps.
Their removal makes me hope that with X2 there is will be something more exploration-related coming (Delta quadrant) that is going to replace them, so I'm personally not up in arms about it. But I still think it's an overall poor decision to make, provided they had announced whether or not something was going to replace them before removing them. I get NDA's and secrecy, but I honestly don't buy "install size" either. There are other reasons...which won't really be revealed to us until they want us to know.
The only way I could buy the install size argument is if X2 is going to be HUGE.
Bottom line: although it doesn't personally affect me, it's not a smart business move. Communication with customers is key, and Cryptic has definitely been a mixed bag in that department. I'm hopeful that their removal will be followed by something better in X2, but that remains to be seen.
Dilithium/Crafting: I don't mind spending money on dilithium, as long as I have direct control over what I'm receiving in exchange for that dilithium (and what I'm receiving is worth my money). Cryptic has said modifiers will come later, just not in 9.5. Okay, I can live with that...provided they actually come, and not at some distant point in the future. I don't mind waiting until X2, but leaving it in a modifier-less state for a longer period of time means Cryptic has to wait longer to make money off me in crafting.
If what I heard in the podcast is true and this really is an "alpha", that should have been communicated either before the release of the build on Tribble, or in conjunction with the release. I believe that the playerbase would have been much for forgiving if they had known that. Waiting to tell us that until after the negative reaction smells too much like damage control. Since we do have some time until it's officially released, I'm cautiously optimistic about this actually being an "alpha" and that changes will be made based on our feedback. But again, whether or not that actually ends up being true remains to be seen.
My character Tsin'xing
I agree. But that hasn't always proven true.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hater. I'm also not a fanboy, either. I'm somewhere in between; that position can fluctuate depending upon a lot of different factors. In which direction that position will move is dependent upon what happens in the near future.
when implemented it will add no value to the game. as of right now it's better to keep the old system. yes the old system is a glorified shop but at least you know what you'll be getting up ahead.
it's not all terrible the ui is good, the approach is kinda good and using doff was the right thing to do.
however since i have little to no control over the outcome it's not a crafting system. you just put materials in and a semi-random item drops out that is more or less how a slots machine functions.
it's only generating semi-random loot for an alternative price. if it was a true crafting system i'd have full control over the outcome. the crafting system should functionally much more closely resemble that of ESO or GW2.
when crafting items we need to be able to control the following factors
- Item Type
- MK
- Rarity
- Modifiers
right now i can only control the item type. Several MKs cannot be selected but at least there is limited control over that. Rarity is determined by a dice roll by the system i can influence the odds but in the end have no control.modifiers is where crafting should shine but i can't even control it.
custom making items should be the corner stone of crafting. that would probably make crafted items more popular that found ones. but by allowing us to change modifier and deconstruct them for crafting materials this should not be a problem.
change crafting to
my true concern here is that you can reach level 20 in a school of crafting and then still get a white quality item because of a bad roll by the system that you have no control over!
that can happen It's specifically sated that chances will never be 100%.
actually some people have been saying that the crafting I want is just a shop. I've been giving that some thought and concluded that it's true. crafting can't even be anything else.
Crafing is to a EC/Dilitium shop what a Tailor is to a fashion shop. both are shops that sell cloths but only the tailor crafts them to perfectly fit you.
only by controlling every aspect can you tailor make the items for yourself and your build. that the hallmark of a truly great crafting system. the one that when you fully master it will allow you to tailor make items.
as of right now I don't see that happen, actually I see us getting a system that the furthest removed from that as it can be.
it's actually already implied in the very word that you shouldn't be relying on random roll but still you do
First of all it's not even a crafting system! It's just a dumb game system that's nothing more than a glorified slots machine.
second the "special items" you hope will be the saving the saving grace are messed up to.
Second, the best rpg crafting systems that exists can be found in "Dragon Age", "Diablo II", and "Neverwinter Nights".
When I think of crafting systems, the first thing that comes to mind is 'weapon and gear customization'. Within the "Dragon Age" series, you gather or buy various sets of artifacts and runes. Players use the runes to enhance the functionality of certain gear. While the rune drops are random, player can buy specific ones from shops. Players have full control over the outcome.
"Star Trek: Online's" crafting system, as you know, relies too much upon fate.
My suggestions:
(1) Failed attempts at making a certain level item would not be consequential. Instead of players losing precious resources, the system should return them to the crafter.
(2) Customizations should not be permanent. Players should have the ability to remove artifacts freely, so they can test various types of customizations.
(3) Crafting items should solely rely upon skill. Within the layout of the character sheet, players should find a third section dedicated to crafting. Instead of creating a bloated system, the crafting skills can fall below the ground ones. Space, ground, and crafting. As a player moves up to level fifty, the individual should have the option to add points to the crafting section. Other words, once a player gets to levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, and 50, the individual will get a specific number of points to level a chosen specialization.
(4) Since players have to buy and/or discover crafting artifacts, the cost to create an item should be 50-55% lower than market value. Instead of charging people 20,000 dilithium for a crafted item, the price to buy them should hover around 9,000 to 10,000 dilithium. 9,000 to 24,000 dilithium is the current market value of rep, fleet, and dilithium store items. Why would players need to pay 100% for a crafted item, which they have to put together themselves? Players are doing all of the work.
(5) Place a price cap on lower level crafting resources on the exchange. Since entry level players are limited in resources, they need an affordable alternative to mission drops. I am referring to the common, uncommon, rare, and very rare resources, which are needed to craft MK I - MK IX items.
(6) Make crafted items 'bound to account on equip'.
(7) Limit timegates from one to two hour intervals.
(8) Allow multiple same level items to be crafted at the same time.
(9) If Cryptic is going to remove the clusters, I would make an entire sector devoted to resource gathering. Players get to co-op or solo missions in a sector, which contains at least eight to ten different mini maps. You can also add a few 'open door' (not open world) PvP maps. 'Open Door' = No queue.
Everyone wins.
Level 21 character could not do the crafting at all. Even though I had the ability to do the material mini-game, I could not keep what I won. The R&D Storage Tab had no blocks in it to store the material in. And I couldn't put the materials in normal storage either. SO I wasted my time with the material gain. The funny thing is that I could look at the R&D DOff Tab and look at what I can craft.
SO I hoped onto the level 50 character and it can do all of the R&D stuff. I found it annoying that when I went to craft a beam weapon, if I selected a Mk level I didn't have the materials to do, there wasn't a back button to change the Mk. I found this incredibly difficult and time consuming to exit and then re-enter the crafting block for that weapon. I also would like to see a way where we can state a quatity of components to build and a quantity of weapons to build. I also would like for the jobs to autocomplete instead of having to go back and click a button to get the stuff. It's very annoying and interferes with playing the game itself.
I also noticed that the DOff interface had changed. And the only thing that I have a problem with is the fact that the commendation exp are not grouped together and clearly marked as such. If I only want to do Military missions I have to waste time looking at each mission and figure out the rewards to see if it gives that kind of exp.
That's my first run through it. More later as I try it out further.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
You mean you can't search by department heads anymore?!? gah.....
You can search by your department heads. But you can't search by COmmendations. SO in the list you might see a military followed by a science then followed by diplomatic. No ordering of the comendation exp you are going to get.
KDF: Dahar Master Kan (Borg Klingon Tactical)::Dahar Master Torc (Alien Science)::Dahar Master Sisteric (Gorn Engineer)
RR-Fed: Citizen Sirroc (Romulan Science)::Fleet Admiral Grell (Alien Engineer)
RR-KDF: Fleet Admiral Zemo (Reman Tactical)::Fleet Admiral Xinatek (Reman Science)::Fleet Admiral Bel (Alien Engineer)
TOS-Fed: Fleet Admiral Katem (Andorian Tactical)::Lieutenant Commander Straad (Vulcan Engineer)
Dom-Fed: Dan'Tar (Jem'Hadar Science)
Dom-KDF: Kamtana'Solan (Jem'Hadar Science)
CoHost of Tribbles in Ecstasy (Zombee)
Not quite that bad. Pretty much everything about crafting and the doff UI has gotten negative feedback from me, with a couple exceptions... and I can still find my posts [EDIT] other than the one referencing Right Said Fred that added nothing to the actual conversation beyond a little humor; that one deserved to go, I'm ashamed of even remembering that song :P [/EDIT]. I think the distinction that CaptainSmirk is trying to make is that: you can provide feedback; you cannot insult the devs or other forum users. I have seen a few posts that were insulting kicking about on both sides of the discussion, and they're still there; the posts I have seen disappear contained actual insults. Basically, avoid ad hominem arguments and you should be fine.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong CaptainSmirk)
I for one like very, very little about the new system... and that is by far outweighed by what makes the game worse (from my perspective). For me, the random chance and inability to reverse engineer technologies are what tips the scales to make the new system (both crafting and the doffing UI collateral damage) as it stands a waste of developer resources. That does not mean I dislike the devs. There is a difference, so I tell said devs what I dislike about the new system in the hopes that it can be made better. I don't insult the devs, because they are the ones that might just fix it before it comes to Holodeck.
"Explore strange new worlds and seek out new life and new civilizations in a vast, expanding universe."
"...our designers can focus less on a games nuts and bolts and more on creating a game that captures Star Treks essence, guaranteeing that both longtime fans of Star Trek and people new to the universe will feel at home."
I'm logging into Tribble now, to double check what I've heard here...but if these forums are correct, I'd suggest a sit-down with the marketing folks.
The truth can be found somewhere between what marketing says and some of the complaints made by players...it's an internal truth, do you enjoy the game? Nobody can tell you if you do or do not...only you can know whether you do.
Yes, I realize that corporations like timelines and hard deadlines and "drop-dead" dates.
But this is a QoL update for us. Make the shipping date "when it's ready" and define "ready" as not getting any more bug reports except extreme corner cases, and a large cross-section of us are happy. (I'd never suggest "most" or "all" of us being happy; this is the forums. You could ship gold bars to all our houses and SOMEBODY would complain about the color of the delivery truck.)
Yes. You will get criticism for not giving a date. Yes, you will still have some people who don't like it, because they've decided they aren't going to ahead of time. Yes, a bug will poke its ugly green head up out of the code somewhere. But a smooth rollout, no next-day "oh s&^$" patches, and the usual "Cryptic f^$%s everything up" crew being silenced would be a pretty decent definition of success, at least in my opinion. Isn't that worth giving up the traditional notion of a ship date?