Yes. It would be nice to see some of those offers elaborated and perhaps acted on in the future. Perhaps That Tal Shiar General will be more receptive in the future, though I doubt Cryptic would act on it. It would break down the whole black hat/white hat dynamic they have going between the Republic and Star Empire. perhaps someone could make a Foundry episode to that effect?
D'Tan being willing to talk to them is remarkable considering what they've been implicated in, ie the Hobus Supernova. That's one of the things he's done that I would actually disagree with, considering the Hobus Supernova and the general Iconian puppetry.
Though I suppose he might think he can save some of them...
D'Tan being willing to talk to them is remarkable considering what they've been implicated in, ie the Hobus Supernova. That's one of the things he's done that I would actually disagree with, considering the Hobus Supernova and the general Iconian puppetry.
Though I suppose he might think he can save some of them...
Well, you have to keep in mind, there were some rather drastic retcons going on when Legacy of Romulus hit- Prior to that D'Tan's enclave on New Romulus was just one of the several factions to emerge when the Empire got thrown into chaos with Sela's abduction. At that point there was still a Romulan Star Empire Navy, and the Tal Shiar were only a fraction of the Romulan enemies you faced. Hakeev wasn't Sela's right hand at that time, or even the leader of the Tal Shiar (seriously, the Tal Shiar agent who makes the offer to Hakeev is a general and would thus outrank him) There were no Elachii or Republic and the Tal Shiar only started to oppose D'Tan's enclave when he refused their offer. Pre LOR it looked like the Tal Shiar looking to make a power grab for the Empire (sicne Sela had a history of conflict with them pre-LOR retconned that). It makes a bit less sense now that the entirety Romulan armed forces have been retroactively turned into Tal Shiar, and the Elachii, hakeev as Sela's right hand etc.
You can still see traces of it on New Romulus with all the 'Republic' Uhlans walking around in 'Tal Shiar' Uniforms, as well as the Romulan captives in the Mountain Pass mission, who are similarly attired and say things like 'you have performed a great service for the empire' when you rescue them. or Obisek saying "my instincts tell me no, but I have no proof. Sela was at odds with the Tal Shiar. I do not believe it would be so if they served the same master". if you ask him if he thinks Sela was working for the Iconians.
catoblepasbeta
I also would like to see how this went on. But You are right - a breaking up of the black-white is very unlikely (as sad as it is).
protogoth:
Well, than tell me the clear evidence for a D'Tan-style Romulan Republic in the past. I confess that I do not know all sources, so you might be right. But could you tell when it happened, how long it last and how it ended?
About the xenophobia...the Star Empire was very strict in protecting its borders. I also see not much evidence for members of others races being honoured allies and even reach the higher ranks of the Star Empire, become full-citizen etc. Even Remans had problems with that (of course THAT is a difference from the Roman Empire, in which allied people could become Romans by duty in the army and other ways). So I think that is some evidence for xenophobia, as you admit. I do not say it is the inner core of their feeling, but it seems a element which is wide spread - and surely hard to give up.
peregry
I have no problem with democratic elements in a Roman way - surely you know that over centuries the roman nobles had more or less control in the senate, some families "owned" nearly the post as consul (I mean, that the people who have this rank come in great parts from very few families over centuries, off course all from the nobility). If that would be the case, I had less problems with the republic.
And I would also disagree that the things shown on the screen about the enemies of the Federation should define the complete truth. They show more or less the Federation perspective - your rarely hear debates in the Romulan Command and in the Tal Shiar. What picture we would have about the Klingons if we centre only on the "old" Enterprise-series? Not the best, and surely not the complete truth.
We see the actions around ONE (or only a few) star ship(s) or a space station. Could you see that as the whole picture? I disagree. No Secret Service could exist if he is completely incompetent. And surely some Romulans hate the Tal Shiar (with cause). But I guess other trust them as protectors against inner fighting and outside enemies.
protogoth
How you could believe that a complete organization which mans dozens of ships (with crew of hundreds and thousands each) and form several regiments of ground forces, run several space stations etc. - if all that could be done only by mad killers and sadistic thugs is beyond my imagination. I guess never in history of any race there was a organization which was made up in this way (anyway how horrible things they do). There are simply not enough people who fit your description. You could convince people to do horrible things by convincing them that it is their duty etc., by de-humanizing the enemies (like you do against the TS ) but you could not form a whole organization out of madmen - give the fact that such people would never be able to cooperate on large scale and fit into a military hierarchy. Most the Uhlans and even of the officers of the TS simply do what they see as their job and duty, to protect what they believe in. Some of them did horrible things for that (as some Republicans and Remans do, you know nuking whole planets etc or covering that up). To hell, if you work with KDF than you bomb and strafe, kidnap and torture, creating bio-weapons and so on. Is that noble?
"You have not given a single good reason apart from some sentimental hoohah amounting to something like "all Romulans ought to sit down at the campfire and sing Kum Ba Yah."
Well, YOU have not give a good "reason" beside from "they bad, they are bad, THEY ARE BAD - IIIIKS!" A bit too few reasons for ongoing war. Is it not a good reason that the Romulan people are few, that our enemies are strong, that D'Tans allies could not really be trusted and that the power of the Republic is weak?
We need their ship, we need their men, we need their money, too. And after the loss of billions of Romulans in the last decades, pardon me if I have no longer the wish that ONE more dies unnecessary.
And where and how did D'Tan honouring the traditions of the Empire of the last centuries, the society and military that had works so long well for your Empire? He seems sometimes more ready to speak to former enemies from other Empires than to people of his kin who where in the past his enemies. Not the best decision.
"The Star Empire, such of it as remains which is not the Tall'Shiar, does not want to unite with the Republic. To do so would be to stop being imperialists. "
Well, perhaps the Republic has done too much to alienate them and to little to bargain with them? And what would be bad to be "imperialists"? Do you only want to spit on the great Empire, the Empire for which so much Romulans - your father, grandfather and so on, too, I guess - lived and died? I see you seem already influenced by the sick ideas of the Federation already, thinking "imperialism" is something bad (I guess our Klingon Allies did also see that a little different - You see, I am not against making friends with ours, with the Klingons the Empire had at least a common ground over some years). How could you so easily adapt foreign ideas, forgetting all what generationy of Romuland had died for? This is beyond my imagination. The Empire is/ was our past, and a proud past. It could also be again our future, with some adaptations to minimize the risk of some mistakes. And please, show me where in our history a Romulan Republic in the way like D'Tan is forming was living and successful. What did she do you the Romulan People? You will see, that "imperialistic" policy did work much better. I see no reason giving that past up for some ideas which are at least in some part influenced by people with which we fought from the first contact on.
Your view against the Empire shows, that you are dancing on the graves of billions of Romulans, of complete generations. It looks like as if you welcome the extinction of the Empire, a catastrophe which killed so many of us. Sorry, my comrade, but is that the Republic I am working for, who see the glorious past of our people only as mistake? Than I wonder what kind of state D'Tan is dreaming for. Surely one, most Romulans will never accept. To judge a at least in part foreign ideal and political thinking over the past of the own people is heartless and stupid, cause it will never be able to re-unite all or at least most Romulans. Call me naiv and brainwashed, but I guess exactly this whish, to re-unite the Empire and its People (with some differences) will be the dream of much more Romulans than you think.
Hm. Well, one thing I'd point out is that Sela's rivalry with the Tal Shiar isn't gone, particularly with the machinations she pulls, such as deliberately pointing the RR player to the Hobus system and Taris's base therein after said player turns on the Tal Shiar during the invasion of Delta Corvi, and says she values the lack of 'blind loyalty to Hakeev.' This directly leads to the Republic player learning of the involvement of Taris, Hakeev, and the Elachi/Iconians in the Hobus Supernova. She came off to me as trying to set everyone against each other so they'd hopefully kill each other and leave her to rule uncontested, culminating in abandoning Hakeev to die and trying to blow up Obisek and the player with the Leahval only after he was dead. She doesn't seem like a willing collaborator with the whole Iconians thing, but she doesn't seem to think she can act on this directly either. Such would be why they abducted the Leahval when she tried to make her move.
Not going to argue about the uniforms, though, those certainly are vestiges of older stuff. Although a lot of Imperial defectors and such would probably be there and the zone is often rather ragtag, considering the use of the Romulan Survivor outfits on various NPCs, so it's probably supposed to be passed off as part of that, I guess. Explains why they haven't made it a priority to switch that around anyway.
Not even going to bother trying to keep up with everyone in every post in here. I need to remind myself that these arguments never really convince anyone involved of anything and they're just the same arguments that have been repeated around here over and over again.
"I will plug my ears and parrot the words of the holy writ hard canon, <<snip>>
Canon is all well and good, until it contradicts itself or expresses inconsistent ideals or simply violates the rules of inference -- and, unfortunately, it does that quite a lot.))
If you want to be fair, you're guilty of the same thing, you plug your ears and scream really loud and long winded when anything/anyone has an opinion of Romulans that you do not agree with. Especially if it isn't based on your two holy grail ToS episodes or favorite novels.
Star Trek's "canon" is a laughable joke when it comes right down to it, and changed at least 3 times a season, so really all of these arguments we have are laughable.
and that is the allusion to our people being "xenophobe." Where exactly does this notion come from? I do not see it reflected in the TOS portrayals of Romulans at all, nor does it appear terribly prominent in later portrayals. While there are hints of such an attitude, they appear to owe more to the Romulans being less than intimately familiar with other peoples than to any innate tendency to xenophobia.
I've wondered this at times myself, I *think* it comes from the fact that, aside from magic-ing up Remans, we only ever see Romulans in the Empire. Similarly in all the novella we have... Romulans, thats it.
The Klingon Empire has, off screen, "subjugated" other species in its history which we never see or really hear about except the occasional line of text or two in background "fluff" info. Its just different enough.
Combine the Romulans only and their historical tendency to stick in their little corner of the galaxy w/o impacting the Federation/Empire much and I think you have most peoples illusion of xenophobia. There have also been soft canon products that list a long history of warring the races/nations on their borders like Gorn, which is likely a contributing factor.
All in all Romulans as portrayed "on screen" or in hard canon haven't really showed xenophobia. Distaste when dealing with others? Yes. Elitist and Romulan Supremacist attitudes? Definitely. Possibly a case of collective anti-social, social introverts? But not 'zomg it's not romulan! killitkillitkillit!!!!' which is generally how xenopohbia manifests itself.
I gotta say to the ones advocating being 'nice' to the Tal Shiar remnants... Yeah... I'll 'be nice' and give them a swift and painless death. There may be Imperial remnants that can be salvaged and brought into the Republic or, my preference, a new Raptor Empire, but the Tal Shiar? No, I'm afraid that one is just one big cancerous lump that needs to be excised. If it weren't for the fact that you see from a first person perspective exactly what they do to their own operatives, I could possibly agree with you. But having seen/experienced that, and combined with how mind numb Charva was even, how can you possibly make an excuse for them? Commander Janek, and Charva are the closest we get to actually salvageable operatives. Janek definitely showed signs of both patriotism and a conscience, but was also willing to purge an entire world of Remans, and immediately sold out Hakeev to save her own TRIBBLE... further she was willing to commit murder to avoid ending up a prisoner in her own listening post. Charva, well that girl obviously needs a few years with a specialist de-programmer psychiatrist before she's ready to return to society. If these two represent our BEST chances of incorporating Tal Shiar into our society, then the average members of that corrupt organization are just non-starters.
Not even going to bother trying to keep up with everyone in every post in here. I need to remind myself that these arguments never really convince anyone involved of anything and they're just the same arguments that have been repeated around here over and over again.
(Where's the fun in that?)
Ancient Griffon insult
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
I would agree in most parts with your analyses about Sela (but this is only theoretical, we simply do not know enough about her exact role in every part of the story).
And sure, the ways in which different people see the question Empire vs Republic vs Tal Shiar is hardly open to changes (I make no difference, I do not believe that I will change my opinion much)
By the way what make me sometimes wonder is how easy some "Republicans" are willing to offer a open hand (or agreeing with such a policy) to long time enemies compared to their (more or less) strict thinking about including elements of the Tal Shiar and the Imperial Remnants. I mean, beeing nice to the Remans (Obiseks actions, and the role several Remans had in that Picard-clone coup), the Federation (the Romulans and the humans were enemies from the start, and that changed later only for limited time) and Klingons (there was a agreement during the classic Enterprise, of course, but later years of bitter conflict). If the Republic is so easy to offer peace, friendship and candy to all of them, than why not to other Romulans? Spilled blood in the past seem not matter so much in that cases, but only when it comes to the TS/ Imperial Remnants.
kodachikuno
I think you could be xenophobic beside killing everything that has not pointed ears and green blood. What you decribe sounds in my ears very much xenophobic. Not in the most brutal way, but far enough.
And only offering the TS - ALL of them - a quick death is indeed as brutal and criminal as the action all Republicans are complaining about. It is hardly to believe that every Uhlan in the TS in brainwashed or a psycho or so on. The TS-Flett and ground forces are made of far to much people that you could judge them all the same. And if you ever want a new Empire, you will need them, any of them. Or your Empires will be made out of the bones of fellow Romulans - as some people seem to dream of when it comes to D'Tans chair. That would neither a Republic nor a Empire I would support.
Well, you have to keep in mind, there were some rather drastic retcons going on when Legacy of Romulus hit- Prior to that D'Tan's enclave on New Romulus was just one of the several factions to emerge when the Empire got thrown into chaos with Sela's abduction. At that point there was still a Romulan Star Empire Navy, and the Tal Shiar were only a fraction of the Romulan enemies you faced. Hakeev wasn't Sela's right hand at that time, or even the leader of the Tal Shiar (seriously, the Tal Shiar agent who makes the offer to Hakeev is a general and would thus outrank him) There were no Elachii or Republic and the Tal Shiar only started to oppose D'Tan's enclave when he refused their offer. Pre LOR it looked like the Tal Shiar looking to make a power grab for the Empire (sicne Sela had a history of conflict with them pre-LOR retconned that). It makes a bit less sense now that the entirety Romulan armed forces have been retroactively turned into Tal Shiar, and the Elachii, hakeev as Sela's right hand etc.
You can still see traces of it on New Romulus with all the 'Republic' Uhlans walking around in 'Tal Shiar' Uniforms, as well as the Romulan captives in the Mountain Pass mission, who are similarly attired and say things like 'you have performed a great service for the empire' when you rescue them. or Obisek saying "my instincts tell me no, but I have no proof. Sela was at odds with the Tal Shiar. I do not believe it would be so if they served the same master". if you ask him if he thinks Sela was working for the Iconians.
Such a rich backdrop, white washed and butt ***** into the current blegh. Possibly Cryptic's nastiest crime.
Wow talk about long winded debates. You guys put congress to SHAME.
I mean lets honestly break it down. The Tal Shair is the STO version of the KGB. They will do ANYTHING to secure power supposedly in the name of the Romulan Empire. Instead they have caused the biggest catastrophe in Romulan history, and then want to try and go back to business as usual of ruling from behind the scenes with D'Tan?
Yeah, already proven that won't work. Tal Shiar need to wake up and smell the coffee. They screwed the pooch, got a WHOLE lot of people killed, and their day has past.
Though on the other hand D'Tan is pissing away a lot of what it means to be Romulan. Sure you can choose to drop the iron wall and become allies more openly, but it's like he's TRIBBLE out the romulans to the side which offers the most in the game.
Sorry there needs to be a 3rd way in the middle of these two positions. Open enough to ally and help neighbors, but not forgetting what it means to be ROMULAN.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
Well, perhaps that is a good example (not because I would say the TS IS like the KGB, for that we know perhaps not enough about the Romulan Society and history) but because the example shows how even repressive services could be judged by many people in the lands in which they "work". In today Russia the KGB is also not hated by ALL (you know that the president of today Russia was former KGB? It is no problem, he is still popular. And you know that at least some former members of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt/ Gestapo/ SD had a sweet landing in postwar Germany, mainly in the western part?). And the Tal Shiar is not the KGB, the Gestapo, not the Mind Police of Orwell - it is the Tal Shiar. And as such was part of the Romulan Star Empire for at least decades (if not more).
But I would agree 100 percent with your call for a third way (but perhaps we could argue about what way this would be).
I would agree in most parts with your analyses about Sela (but this is only theoretical, we simply do not know enough about her exact role in every part of the story).
And sure, the ways in which different people see the question Empire vs Republic vs Tal Shiar is hardly open to changes (I make no difference, I do not believe that I will change my opinion much)
By the way what make me sometimes wonder is how easy some "Republicans" are willing to offer a open hand (or agreeing with such a policy) to long time enemies compared to their (more or less) strict thinking about including elements of the Tal Shiar and the Imperial Remnants. I mean, beeing nice to the Remans (Obiseks actions, and the role several Remans had in that Picard-clone coup), the Federation (the Romulans and the humans were enemies from the start, and that changed later only for limited time) and Klingons (there was a agreement during the classic Enterprise, of course, but later years of bitter conflict). If the Republic is so easy to offer peace, friendship and candy to all of them, than why not to other Romulans? Spilled blood in the past seem not matter so much in that cases, but only when it comes to the TS/ Imperial Remnants.
There's a reason or several for that.
It involves the deaths of over 4.2 billion people and the destruction of the homeworld, a crime that eclipses anything in real history, and pretty much everything in the Empire's aside from perhaps the attempt to exterminate the Changelings before the Dominion War made by the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order...which failed, so it doesn't stand out as much.
And also, Iconians.
The Tal Shiar, or more specifically Hakeev and (if we believe her) a duped Taris, sold out everyone in the Romulan Star Empire for a chance at retaining their power in a future New Iconian Empire, and by all indications, they remain loyal to this legacy, as indicated by Hakeev's final message to Commander Ruul.
For all their bluster about the Republic and independent colonies being traitors, they are the ones who turned traitor first, twenty-three years ago. Anyone knowingly loyal to that by choice is not remotely trustworthy, and the brainwashing victims can't be reasoned with for obvious reasons. And before I hear about 'but they forgave everyone else!': I don't see the blood of everyone who was on Romulus when it was destroyed on the hands of the Federation or the Klingon Empire. The Remans...may have, had Shinzon had the chance, not to mention Obisek's planning to thalaron Hfihar to take out the liistening post. Yet considering the many, many years of slavery, I find that...somewhat more difficult to judge. I suspect working with them, and the Federation and Klingon Empire working with the Republic in general, to be partly motivated by trying to keep them from ending up resorting to such extremes again. Nobody wants a desperate, angry people with thalaron weapons and cloaking devices backed into a corner.
You bet your britches I'll side with the hard cannon when it's contradicted by your tertiary novel series and your own highly selective method of 'filling in the blanks'.
You are the one saying that the portrayals from the shows should take a backseat to the books-except when it contradicts your particular views. I couldn't help but notice in your response to caedicus you are still spouting that 66-year figure for the Tal Shiar, despite it being retconned in a later book to be a much more long-lived organization. It's clear that you have blinders on to any information that doesn't feed into your confirmation bias. The shows put forth a fairly straightforward explanation to the events. The only 'smoke and mirrors' are the logical pretzels you contort yourself into to pretend the ancestors of the Romulans didn't kill Surak and countless other Vulcans., and that this was principally due to a conflict with Surak's teachings.
No, not at all. I'm saying that the portrayals of VULCAN CLAIMS MANY CENTURIES AFTER THE FACT should be taken with a very large grain of salt, whether they come from the shows or a comic book or a movie or a novel or any other source, because listening to the enemies of another people in order to get anything remotely akin to an accurate picture of that people is rather irrational.
The ancestors of the Romulans did not kill Surak. I don't care what the Vulcan establishment declared to be "true history" before the beginning of the Syrranite Reform (and frankly, even after the beginning of the Syrranite Reform, the facts of the matter will have been so well concealed, if not completely erased, that the new Vulcan establishment are most unlikely to ever be able to sort the truth from the lies of the former establishment). This is the same establishment which distorted Cthia to serve their own ends, and would have continued to be the dominant interpetation of Cthia had it not been for Archer and T'Pol helping T'Pau and her bunch to find the original writings of Surak.
The Enterprise era Vulcans were a slide backwards from what they achieved from the time of Awakening. This came from Surak ('s Katra) himself. Syrranites set them straight-but the corrupted ENT-era Vulcans time were not indicative of the ones of Surak's time. Hilariously enough, the policies and possibly even culture of ENT-era Vulcans were most likely highly influenced by Romulans, considering the guy in charge was working with them...
What makes you think that V'Las was the first and only dishonest Vulcan leader? The distorted view of Cthia promoted by the Vulcan establishment in his era did not gain such traction in Vulcan society overnight, nor from the work of one man, especially seeing as he only came to power in 2154, the same year he was removed from power! No, this distortion of Cthia had been around much longer than V'Las. Of course there were Surakians who were true to the Kir'Shara in Surak's time, but to assume that they were the only proto-Vulcans pushing a version of Cthia at that time is to be blind to how religions experience schism and sectarianism. Even in the time of Paul, there were already sects among those who claimed to follow the teachings of Jesus. This is not an unique situation by any means.
D'Tan mentions reunification on New Romulus when you first meet him, and I believe in your first(?) meeting with him on the Flotilla.
Maybe on New Romulus, but I don't remember anything of the sort when meeting him on the Flotilla. Of course, the intro to New Romulus can be reviewed at any time, but the only way to review the meeting on the Flotilla is to make a new character and play through those missions again. I have done those missions three times now, and I took screenshots. Reviewing those when I was doing research for "Ahr'fvahir mnean?", I do not recall seeing a mention of Reunification.
You implied that there are only ever the same RSE supporters in these threads, despite the fact that it is completely false. That is just wishful thinking, and even if it were true it wouldn't mean that all of the people happy playing the Republic wouldn't also be happy playing as the Star Empire if that had been what we got instead.
I don't believe I implied anything of the sort. However, there is a certain core group of agitators for the RSE and/or the TS who seem to be present in each of those threads, and that group is quite small by comparison with those who take the opposite position.
I recall you expressing interest in exterminating/letting die the RSE remnants/folks who won't shoe the line, so IMO it's a bit disingenuous to imply that you never had that position. I recall a thread a while back when some Tal Shiar supporter wanted to do a 'protest' at New Romulus and you seemed quite...eager to express your desire to blow them all up if I recall. Not the only time either.
Yes, when some yahoo came into this forum and posted a plan to invade New Romulus with Tal'Shiar forces, I absolutely did state that I would be there to kill or die in opposing them. Incidentally, this was also the thread where supporters of the Republic came out of the woodwork to agree with my sentiments, and I didn't "summon" any of them; they came of their own volition without any action on my part. Their numbers in that one thread far outweighed all of the core group and the occasional posters who have agitated for the RSE and/or TS throughout the history of this forum. Yet you continue to claim to be in the majority, directly contradicting all the evidence to the contrary.
And yes, the Republic definitely does give the impression of being for being for D'Tan and his 'new order' Romulans to the exclusion of the 'RSE' style Romulans. In case you just somehow managed to not notice the lack of RSE types in the Republic.
Why would -- or should -- the Republic welcome their own enemies to come inside and destroy from the inside? The very idea is insanity. But you have been told and shown repeatedly that the beginnings of the Republic were found in members of the Imperial Star Navy who willingly chose to establish a separatist movement, and, far from tolerating their desire to be separate, the RSE hunted and persecuted them at every opportunity, with the TS going so far as to attack loyal citizens of two colony worlds (at least two) who had nothing to do with the separatist movement and were just going about their lives. The RSE is not the victim in this, and your attempts, and those of caedicius, to portray them as such are the height of brazen falsehood.
Also to point something out from your last post-the Tal Shiar did offer to join with the Republic. They even offered to make him the leader of the entire Romulan Star Empire with the implied caveat that he insure the Tal Shiar had a place in his government. The Hirogen/Tal Shiar harassment on New Romulus is a result of his refusal. While of course it wouldn't have been very noble of him to accept, but it does show that the Tal Shiar themselves are not above coming to the table, to say nothing of the rest of the Empire.
But, and here's something you just don't seem to grasp, D'Tan did not want to be part of the RSE, let alone its leader. The RSE killed itself through nepotism, incompetence, madness, lust for power, preferring "noble" Senators over those who were more capable, allowing self-absorbed and self-centered power-mongers take the highest positions of leadership in spite of the evidence that they would never serve the Romulan people (nor even act in the best interests of the Star Empire itself) but only help themselves to the biggest helping at the table and refuse for even morsels to be given to the people.
The Tal'Shiar offer was not as pure and innocent as you attempt to portray it, and you are very well aware of that fact. They wanted far more than "a place in his government," and you know that very well, too. They have been scheming to take control of the RSE for quite some time, and that is also something you know quite well. Yet here you are again, spewing the most ridiculous pro-RSE and even pro-TS nonsense in an effort to subvert the Republic. I'm going to have you arrested and tossed in a Republic prison if I ever get the chance. Then we'll get the truth out of you about who you're working for and how much they've paid you or what they've promised you in return for these propaganda efforts.
D'Tan being willing to talk to them is remarkable considering what they've been implicated in, ie the Hobus Supernova. That's one of the things he's done that I would actually disagree with, considering the Hobus Supernova and the general Iconian puppetry.
Though I suppose he might think he can save some of them...
Or maybe, just maybe, he knew they would never agree to meet openly and negotiate openly, because they would never have the support of the Senate of the New Republic, much less the people of the New Republic, and thus he was calling their bluff.
Well, than tell me the clear evidence for a D'Tan-style Romulan Republic in the past. I confess that I do not know all sources, so you might be right. But could you tell when it happened, how long it last and how it ended?
About the xenophobia...the Star Empire was very strict in protecting its borders. I also see not much evidence for members of others races being honoured allies and even reach the higher ranks of the Star Empire, become full-citizen etc. Even Remans had problems with that (of course THAT is a difference from the Roman Empire, in which allied people could become Romans by duty in the army and other ways). So I think that is some evidence for xenophobia, as you admit. I do not say it is the inner core of their feeling, but it seems a element which is wide spread - and surely hard to give up.
We have discussed this view more than once in the past in this forum, and a more than sufficient number of examples to counter the view have been provided, especially with regard to Kares and Di'on Charvon and how they interacted with Federation personnel even during confrontations, as well as Doctor Telek R'Mor's interactions with Federation personnel even when he was afraid it was some sort of Tal'Shiar trick to entrap him.
And I would also disagree that the things shown on the screen about the enemies of the Federation should define the complete truth. They show more or less the Federation perspective - your rarely hear debates in the Romulan Command and in the Tal Shiar. What picture we would have about the Klingons if we centre only on the "old" Enterprise-series? Not the best, and surely not the complete truth.
We see the actions around ONE (or only a few) star ship(s) or a space station. Could you see that as the whole picture? I disagree. No Secret Service could exist if he is completely incompetent. And surely some Romulans hate the Tal Shiar (with cause). But I guess other trust them as protectors against inner fighting and outside enemies.
The first part of what you say is entirely relevant to what I've been trying to get across about Vulcan claims regarding The Sundering. The latter part is uninformed. Everything the Tal'Shiar has ever attempted on screen has been a mockery of what an Intelligence service should do. Have you played through all the Romulan missions in STO? I suggest you do so before you continue trying to defend the Tal'Shiar.
protogoth
How you could believe that a complete organization which mans dozens of ships (with crew of hundreds and thousands each) and form several regiments of ground forces, run several space stations etc. - if all that could be done only by mad killers and sadistic thugs is beyond my imagination. I guess never in history of any race there was a organization which was made up in this way (anyway how horrible things they do). There are simply not enough people who fit your description. You could convince people to do horrible things by convincing them that it is their duty etc., by de-humanizing the enemies (like you do against the TS ) but you could not form a whole organization out of madmen - give the fact that such people would never be able to cooperate on large scale and fit into a military hierarchy. Most the Uhlans and even of the officers of the TS simply do what they see as their job and duty, to protect what they believe in. Some of them did horrible things for that (as some Republicans and Remans do, you know nuking whole planets etc or covering that up). To hell, if you work with KDF than you bomb and strafe, kidnap and torture, creating bio-weapons and so on. Is that noble?
"You have not given a single good reason apart from some sentimental hoohah amounting to something like "all Romulans ought to sit down at the campfire and sing Kum Ba Yah."
Well, YOU have not give a good "reason" beside from "they bad, they are bad, THEY ARE BAD - IIIIKS!" A bit too few reasons for ongoing war. Is it not a good reason that the Romulan people are few, that our enemies are strong, that D'Tans allies could not really be trusted and that the power of the Republic is weak?
We need their ship, we need their men, we need their money, too. And after the loss of billions of Romulans in the last decades, pardon me if I have no longer the wish that ONE more dies unnecessary.
Again, have you played through all of the Romulan missions in STO? It does not seem to me that you have. We do not need the Tal'Shiar. Their leadership was filled with madmen, and their rank and file were subjected to brainwashing and even the use of Borg assimilation techniques to literally program them to be little more than drones. These facts account rather easily for the incompetence so characteristic of the Tal'Shiar and their efforts.
And where and how did D'Tan honouring the traditions of the Empire of the last centuries, the society and military that had works so long well for your Empire? He seems sometimes more ready to speak to former enemies from other Empires than to people of his kin who where in the past his enemies. Not the best decision.
"The Star Empire, such of it as remains which is not the Tall'Shiar, does not want to unite with the Republic. To do so would be to stop being imperialists. "
Well, perhaps the Republic has done too much to alienate them and to little to bargain with them? And what would be bad to be "imperialists"? Do you only want to spit on the great Empire, the Empire for which so much Romulans - your father, grandfather and so on, too, I guess - lived and died? I see you seem already influenced by the sick ideas of the Federation already, thinking "imperialism" is something bad (I guess our Klingon Allies did also see that a little different - You see, I am not against making friends with ours, with the Klingons the Empire had at least a common ground over some years). How could you so easily adapt foreign ideas, forgetting all what generationy of Romuland had died for? This is beyond my imagination. The Empire is/ was our past, and a proud past. It could also be again our future, with some adaptations to minimize the risk of some mistakes. And please, show me where in our history a Romulan Republic in the way like D'Tan is forming was living and successful. What did she do you the Romulan People? You will see, that "imperialistic" policy did work much better. I see no reason giving that past up for some ideas which are at least in some part influenced by people with which we fought from the first contact on.
Your view against the Empire shows, that you are dancing on the graves of billions of Romulans, of complete generations. It looks like as if you welcome the extinction of the Empire, a catastrophe which killed so many of us. Sorry, my comrade, but is that the Republic I am working for, who see the glorious past of our people only as mistake? Than I wonder what kind of state D'Tan is dreaming for. Surely one, most Romulans will never accept. To judge a at least in part foreign ideal and political thinking over the past of the own people is heartless and stupid, cause it will never be able to re-unite all or at least most Romulans. Call me naiv and brainwashed, but I guess exactly this whish, to re-unite the Empire and its People (with some differences) will be the dream of much more Romulans than you think.
Again, have you played through all the Romulan missions in STO? Again, it does not seem that you have. Again, I suggest you do so before further attempts to defend the Tal'Shiar.
It involves the deaths of over 4.2 billion people and the destruction of the homeworld, a crime that eclipses anything in real history, and pretty much everything in the Empire's aside from perhaps the attempt to exterminate the Changelings before the Dominion War made by the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order...which failed, so it doesn't stand out as much.
And also, Iconians.
The Tal Shiar, or more specifically Hakeev and (if we believe her) a duped Taris, sold out everyone in the Romulan Star Empire for a chance at retaining their power in a future New Iconian Empire, and by all indications, they remain loyal to this legacy, as indicated by Hakeev's final message to Commander Ruul.
For all their bluster about the Republic and independent colonies being traitors, they are the ones who turned traitor first, twenty-three years ago. Anyone knowingly loyal to that by choice is not remotely trustworthy, and the brainwashing victims can't be reasoned with for obvious reasons. And before I hear about 'but they forgave everyone else!': I don't see the blood of everyone who was on Romulus when it was destroyed on the hands of the Federation or the Klingon Empire. The Remans...may have, had Shinzon had the chance, not to mention Obisek's planning to thalaron Hfihar to take out the liistening post. Yet considering the many, many years of slavery, I find that...somewhat more difficult to judge. I suspect working with them, and the Federation and Klingon Empire working with the Republic in general, to be partly motivated by trying to keep them from ending up resorting to such extremes again. Nobody wants a desperate, angry people with thalaron weapons and cloaking devices backed into a corner.
I have played through all of the missions, but I am no slave to them. They portayed ONE picture, not the complete truth. In that missions there is rarely conversation with members of the TS beside very few individuals. I can't remember speaking much with the crews of the ships or the ground forces you had to kill. To judge them all for the portrait of half a dozen or few more people seems very strange. Also there was even less conversation with Imperial Remnants outside the TS.
To see that as the whole truth would be so one-sided as claiming that you only need to look some TV-session to know anything about the Klingon, Romulan etc. society (because such things are shown only in SOME of them, and rarely in detail). It shows FEW people in CERTAIN circumstances - and from a pro-Federation point ov view, since they are the "heroes" (if there would be more series/ books from the point of view of Romulans etc., the things would be different, I guess). Look at the way some races "changed" over the years. The Klingons had "changed" in the way they are shown and judged (and will perhaps doing so in future).
And you quoted the historian at Virinat. She seems to be not so negative about the Empire - she said they created an Empire. Not "a republic".
admiraldc
Bit did the Klingons shot any member of thei political, military and industrial elite after the Praxis-catastrophe which nearly made their homeworld a desert? Surely not. The supernova was of course in the result worse, but the problem is the same (and there were also people in Star Fleet which experiments etc. went wrong and created a lot of problems). Did anyone say lets kill all El-Aurians because one of them had tried do destroy an entire system (Generations)?
Did the simple uhlan or even centurion of the TS have anything to do with the supernova? How many TS did know the risk in the things some of them were doing and how many were indeed involved in the project? The answer is very likely "very few", in the hundreds at best, I guess. To punish all of the TS for that (many of them surely joined the ranks long after the supernova) would be barbaric and blind.
And does the Federation not wasted the blood of many Romulans in the several conflicts the Empire had with the humans? From the first contact on there was war or at least tensions, and that cost a lot I guess
Oh come-on....we had an episode that showed the nukes going off that killed Surak from Surak's own perspective. Or are you suggesting that Surak would lie about the circumstances of his death? Also, got a bit of a chuckle out of me suggesting that Surak's own followers dropped an atomic bomb on him as part of some evil conspiracy to twist his doctrine. You are making the Vulcans sound more 'Romulan' than the Romulans themselves. Syrran had Surak's katra in him for more than a decade-IMO plenty of time for Surak's katra to soak in what happened and I think-give credence to his claim that the 'modern' Vulcans at that time were backsliding from the gains they had made at the time of Awakening.
What makes you think that V'Las was ... by any means.
I Don't think he was the first or only dischonest Vulcan leader. I also don't think Romulan influence over the Vulcans was limited to just him and his brief stint as leader. A conspiracy like the Romulan-Vulcan reunification they were planning would require a lot of manpower in high positions IMO. Both Vuclan sympathizers and undercover Romulan operatives. A likely scenario si that they were manipulating things behind the scenes for some time. Supposedly a plot point that would have made it into ENT had it run on for longer would have revealed T'Pol to be half Romulan, which would indicate a this was going on for quite some time. Wouldn't be the first time the Romulans played the long-game. They had an Romulan serving as a Vulcan ambassador for quite some time, and of course, Spock was duped by a Romulan who built a reputation as a progressive sort of politician for years so he could get into Spock's trust before betraying him.
Perhaps it was somewhere else. I'm out of free character slots and I'm not about to delete one of them and start over just to humor you. There's at least one example which you cannot refuse.
Nice to see another plug for your fleet. sometimes it seems like we can't go two pages without getting another one.
I suspect the criteria you are using to count who supports the Republic and who does not is...flawed. Heck, even on this very page we have new blood... who don't seem to be seeing eye-to-eye with you 100% here. I don't think I have seen caedicus around too much before. All the other threads like this are similar....also I didn't say you 'summoned' anyone to that thread.
Still, It's easy to drum up support for one faction over another when one is a mustache-twirling caricature of an already 'dark' organization and the other is a chimera of the Bajoran Resistance and Rebel Alliance by the Devs own admission. If these threads show us anything, it's that a lot of people think the Republic-Tal Shiar is some rather lazy writing and could have been handled with a lot more finesse than it was. Heck, even I don't really want to play as Tal Shiar as they are written in STO, in case you have forgotten.
The Republic is welcoming to Reman pirates that by the game's own writing hunt and kill Romulan civilians for sport, who's leader is perfectly willing to use Thalaron weapons on civilian targets if it hurts the Tal Shiar, and who regularly raids Federation space. Not nice guys Heck, Obisek will even try to kill the player on more than one occasion. Meanwhile, they are also allying with the Federation-who they have historically been at odds with for ages, and the Klingons. These guys torture to death Romulan prisoners of war. They tried to conquer the empire at least once in recent memory. They are basically blood enemies. If they can accept those kinds of alliances, some pardons should not be too much.
I was merely pointing out that the Tal Shiar were willing to unite with the Republic. That's at least half a hand extended in some sort of semi-positive direction, and it's a precedent. We should see this be resolved and some sort of unification take place. It would be silly of D'Tan to expect reunification with the Vulcans if he can't even Reconcile two different groups of Romulans.
The Tal Shiar are far from innocent, but they were also never nearly as bad in the shows as they are in STO. They used to have a useful purpose, it would be ncie to see them return to the fold in some (less insane) form.
Oh and good luck apprehending me, I may be higher-ranking in Republic Intelligence than you realize
protogoth and catoblepasbeta
To say it strait befor there is any debate: I am indeed not very "old" here - in the game for almost half a year, in the forum a much shorter time.
And I agree, the TS in the way it is shown is not very amazing (if I could not live with the Republic as such I would not play), but I think some changes in the way the TS is shown and in the actions of the Republic could only make the game better.
admiraldc
Bit did the Klingons shot any member of thei political, military and industrial elite after the Praxis-catastrophe which nearly made their homeworld a desert? Surely not. The supernova was of course in the result worse, but the problem is the same (and there were also people in Star Fleet which experiments etc. went wrong and created a lot of problems). Did anyone say lets kill all El-Aurians because one of them had tried do destroy an entire system (Generations)?
Did the simple uhlan or even centurion of the TS have anything to do with the supernova? How many TS did know the risk in the things some of them were doing and how many were indeed involved in the project? The answer is very likely "very few", in the hundreds at best, I guess. To punish all of the TS for that (many of them surely joined the ranks long after the supernova) would be barbaric and blind.
And does the Federation not wasted the blood of many Romulans in the several conflicts the Empire had with the humans? From the first contact on there was war or at least tensions, and that cost a lot I guess
Mistakes in leadership and administration leading to the Praxis event are not remotely equivalent to the deliberate destruction of Romulus at the behest of a foreign power.
That said, you seem to not have noticed how I phrased part of what I said.
...Anyone knowingly loyal to that by choice is not remotely trustworthy...
Given the heavy level of intel classification that goes on in intelligence agencies and particularly one like the Tal Shiar, I wouldn't be surprised if a significant part of the rank and file are simply ignorant of many of their crimes, Hobus chief among them. The leadership, however, is not, and it is the leaders that represent them in any attempts at 'negotiation,' such as that they attempted with D'Tan.
The low-level ones may occasionally defect, and these have been welcomed. One such officer is Lt. Selan of the Lleiset, a member of the Tal Shiar who was assimilated by the Borg while attempting to gather their technology for study and was liberated by the Republic.
Lt Selan was interesting, it's unfortunate that the dialogue on the ship seems to indicate that the captain (and by extension the crew) were chosen largely for political reasons. I wouldn't doubt if his inclusion was for propaganda purposes, considering his backstory and the fact he seems to have embraced the Republic creed wholeheartedly (not that you can blame him, given the circumstances)
Some episode where you have to negotiate a surrender of Tal Shiar forces or attend some sort of conference merging the two governments together would be ideal I think. A sudden hail-mary attack (because conferences in ST only exist to be suddenly interrupted by enemies) by the die-hard hardcore Hakeev-type Tal Shiar remnants would help put those loonies to rest-and we'd have the best of both worlds-'traditional' RSE Romulans side by side under the old government alongside the more perspective D'Tan types, and the Hakeev-style Tal Shiar out of the way for good.
But you have also to notice that since the supernova is "now" (around 2409) already some time ago, a certain number of leading Tal Shiar members had risen who had nothing to do with the thing. So the people with which negotiations would occur must not having anything to do with the supernova, given the fact that after Hakeev end and Selas kidnapping/whatever even the TS seems broken up un several groups - not to mentioned the rest of the Imperial Remnants.
catoblepasbeta
That sounds nice (perhaps it also be a nice idea if in that case there must be some parts of the Republic convinced to take part/ a hard-core Republican or a man/ woman with personal anger try to interrupt the meeting with a assassination-attempt (ok, that all sounds a little bit like The Undiscovered Land )
Oh come-on....we had an episode that showed the nukes going off that killed Surak from Surak's own perspective. Or are you suggesting that Surak would lie about the circumstances of his death? Also, got a bit of a chuckle out of me suggesting that Surak's own followers dropped an atomic bomb on him as part of some evil conspiracy to twist his doctrine. You are making the Vulcans sound more 'Romulan' than the Romulans themselves. Syrran had Surak's katra in him for more than a decade-IMO plenty of time for Surak's katra to soak in what happened and I think-give credence to his claim that the 'modern' Vulcans at that time were backsliding from the gains they had made at the time of Awakening.
Try to keep up, will you? Did I say followers of Surak killed him? No, I suggested that some of those who had perverted his teachings might have done so. There is quite a difference between saying "Surak's followers killed him in order to twist his doctrine" and saying "Some of those who twisted his doctrine may have killed him." We have here something very odd which may be due to one or more of several possibilities: you are either not paying attention to what I say, not comprehending what I say, or intentionally building Straw Men of what I say. In any of those cases, you are demonstrating that what you have to say in reply to me is largely irrelevant to anything I have said. I have also said that there were several rival sects of Surakians even in his own time. To suggest that the sect(s) responsible for the twisted interpretation managed to establish their own view of his doctrine as the orthodoxy of that time would be ridiculous. Of course it would be ridiculous, and I have not said so, but that is what you claim I said. Again, you are either not paying attention, not comprehending, or intentionally misrepresenting what I have said. In any case, you are not criticizing my position, but something which you have invented, innocently or intentionally. The Te-Vikram Brotherhood attacked ShiKahr. This was not the first, nor the last, act of violence on their part. Those who remained on Vulcan continued their terrorist activities, and those who left continued to make trouble for the proto-Romulans, leading a successful mutiny on one of the Great Ships with the assistance of some of the Technocrats. When the crew of that vessel destroyed it, members of both the Te-Vikram Brotherhood and the Technocrats demanded a shuttle, which they received, and then left the fleet. However, there were yet members of both of those factions still with the Exiles when they reached the Eisn system. You keep saying "the Romulans killed Surak with nuclear weapons." There were no Romulans in Surak's time. When I point this out repeatedly, you finally resort to "the ancestors of the Romulans killed Surak with nuclear weapons." Still yet, the Te-Vikram Brotherhood are not counted by Romulans as among their ancestors. Few even mention the Technocrats, although they had considerable influence on early Romulan society. No, when Romulans speak of their ancestors, they speak of Tellus and S'Task. Those are the two most revered of the proto-Romulans, but it was due to S'Task having become regarded by the younger folk that his influence waned for a time, and the mad queen of the two worlds from hfihar s'Rehu was able to get away with having him murdered on the floor of the Senate. However, eventually, he was again revered as a forebear. So there were nuclear explosions. Was Tellus responsible? Was S'Task? Were the Children of Ket-Cheleb or the followers of S'Task? No. The Te-Vikram Brotherhood, which was around before Surak, and was already engaging in terrorist acts before Surak, was the group which attacked ShiKahr. They were not "dissenters" from Cthia. They were the unconverted who refused to convert, and found themselves on the Great Ships by accident and necessity. This is why they mutinied and tried to take one of the ships back to the Mother World. They had no desire to leave. They were not Romulan, nor proto-Romulan.
You insist that all of these varied groups were "those who marched beneath the Raptor's wings," just as the Thaessu refuse to make distinctions. I begin to suspect that you are not in fact an Imperialist supporting the Shiar ih'Saeihr Rihan, nor a Tal'Shiar sympathizer, at all, but rather, one of the Yyaiosu masquerading as a Rihanha and coming here to attempt to subvert the Republic and sew doubt in the minds of those who do support the Republic. Shaenhanen Yyaio! Did T'Nae put you up to this?
Perhaps it was somewhere else. I'm out of free character slots and I'm not about to delete one of them and start over just to humor you. There's at least one example which you cannot refuse.
Nice to see another plug for your fleet. sometimes it seems like we can't go two pages without getting another one.
So one single mention that I grant means that D'Tan is, whether openly or secretly, plotting to push Reunification as the official policy of the government? Are you really this desperate?
The link I provided is to a discussion of Romulan history/culture/identity. That it happens to be on the same site which serves as the web-embassy of my fleet, and that the final page of it (a six page work, of which the first page is brief and introductory, and of which the final page is also brief, but very much a part of the history of the Romulan people as of 2410 in STO) discusses the formation of my fleet, is yet another red herring which you have now seized upon in yet another desperate move to again try to change the subject of this discussion away from what we are actually talking about to yet another attack upon me. You try to veil these personal attacks. I call you a brainwashed stooge of the Tal'Shiar or a Vulcan deceiver openly. There is no need for me to point this out, however; most people who have followed our war of words have surely noticed that your agenda is not one which would benefit the Rihannsu or the Havrannsu, but would instead have quite the opposite effect. But if you would think to accuse me of Argumentum ad Hominem, think again. When the evidence of your own words points so heavily to one or the other of these views being rather likely, to not state the likely possibilities would be leaving a key part of the situation unsaid. Your aim does no benefit to the Rihannsu or Havrannsu, but, quite the contrary, supports enemies of the people, whether those enemies be Yyaiosu or Tal'Shiar.
The very thread to which you appealed was the one which demonstrated what a minority your apparent (note: apparent, not necessarily actual) position is. The irony involved here is in your refusal to admit that you simply don't have the numbers necessary to pull off the destruction of the Republic as you wish, and that you will not concede that we outnumber you by so much that all of your agitating for the RSE and Tal'Shiar is never going to result in anything which could rival the Republic.
I suspect the criteria you are using to count who supports the Republic and who does not is...flawed. Heck, even on this very page we have new blood... who don't seem to be seeing eye-to-eye with you 100% here. I don't think I have seen caedicus around too much before. All the other threads like this are similar....also I didn't say you 'summoned' anyone to that thread.
See, here you go again. One new person shows up who espouses what you profess to espouse, and right away, you insist that I'm being ironic because I still point out that there is a core group (of perhaps 5-7 people who regularly post in this forum) agitating in favor of the RSE and/or the Tal'Shiar, but let's look at what I actually said: "the core group and the occasional posters" -- occasional posters, right there, accounting for all the one-hit wonders and those who wander in and decide to join up with the propaganda campaign. You go look again at the Tal'Shiar thread and see what was said, if you are capable of comprehending what was said. You'll see rather clearly an overwhelming number of people who support the Republic, far outnumbering your little group.
Still, It's easy to drum up support for one faction over another when one is a mustache-twirling caricature of an already 'dark' organization and the other is a chimera of the Bajoran Resistance and Rebel Alliance by the Devs own admission. If these threads show us anything, it's that a lot of people think the Republic-Tal Shiar is some rather lazy writing and could have been handled with a lot more finesse than it was. Heck, even I don't really want to play as Tal Shiar as they are written in STO, in case you have forgotten.
The fault here is in your refusal to acknowledge that the Tal'Shiar in the shows was never depicted in any other manner. They were always shown to be a gang of thugs. They were always mustache-twirling villains. This is not a caricature of the Tal'Shiar of the shows in the least, but a faithful depiction of them.
You also easily overlook the several places in which I have stated openly that I would have preferred a Romulan Star Empire taken back to what it was before TNG came along and gave the revisionist toads whom you idolize as "real" Romulans.
And, while I'm on this subject, I'm going to address something you've hurled about a few times in reply to me, which I failed to address in my last group of posts. You have more than once resorted to some newer novel which "retconned" the Tal'Shiar to have existed long before Narviat was Praetor. The problem with this is again the issue of continuity. You accuse me of cherry-picking the evidence, rejecting hard canon in favor of soft canon when it suits me. I have stated several times in this forum that my picking and choosing was done without bias, and that I could rather easily have painted an even worse picture of the RSE, but my concern was not with any particular agenda, instead being concerned with making something consistent out of all the continuity issues in the various series and movies, with the aid of soft canon. The reason I reject the revisionist earlier date of Tal'Shiar founding is really quite simple: TOS Romulans showed absolutely none of the characteristics which you persist in asserting to be characteristic of the Romulan people. They acted as they chose without any concern for some Secret Police thugs looking over their shoulder or listening in on their words and deeds. There is no evidence at all that such an organization existed in that time, and quite a lot which points to the opposite conclusion, namely, that there was no Tal'Shiar until after the dates of TOS. In fact, the formation of the Tal'Shiar in the years between the end of TOS (and TAS, for that matter) and the beginning of TNG is quite consistent with the change in the Romulans between TOS/TAS and TNG, and serves very well to explain that change rather easily -- much better, in fact, than any other attempted explanation I have yet seen. My concern is being consistent, and not whitewashing things nor smearing other things with mud as you have accused multiple times.
The Republic is welcoming to Reman pirates that by the game's own writing hunt and kill Romulan civilians for sport, who's leader is perfectly willing to use Thalaron weapons on civilian targets if it hurts the Tal Shiar, and who regularly raids Federation space. Not nice guys Heck, Obisek will even try to kill the player on more than one occasion. Meanwhile, they are also allying with the Federation-who they have historically been at odds with for ages, and the Klingons. These guys torture to death Romulan prisoners of war. They tried to conquer the empire at least once in recent memory. They are basically blood enemies. If they can accept those kinds of alliances, some pardons should not be too much.
Cry me a river. This victim-playing is the most amazing attempt you have yet made in your efforts to subvert the Republic. We do not so easily forget what the Star Empire has done to our families and friends, both in the form of the Tal'Shiar and in the form of the Star Empire itself. This was supposed to be a government acting for the good of our people, and what it did was anything but good for our people. We have been allies with the Klling'hannsu more than once in the past. Governments change when their leaders change. Praetor Dralath launched the attack on Narendra-III, and the fact of his insanity is not a matter of debate. Some Romulans even tried to stop it, and fought on the side of the Klling'hannsu and the Lloannen'galae against those forces sent by the mad Praetor, but it was Romulans, under Dralath, who violated the alliance with the Klling'hannsu. Of course some Klling'hannsu would be bitter over this and hold a grudge and be biased against all Rihannsu because of it, and would naturally be expected to attempt to strike out. The Federation has been our enemy at times, and at other times had no relations whatsoever with us, and we have also worked with them on more than one occasion. The RSE enslaved the Havrannsu; their feelings are perfectly understandable. The Tal'Shiar, on the other hand, need no provocation for their senseless violence against innocent and loyal citizens. Since the assassination of Praetor Devoras, their leaders have ever been dupes or madmen, and their rank and file have ever been brainwashed (in more recent times subjected to Borg assimilation techniques to turn them into mindlessly obedient stooges). This is the key difference. We have attacked Federation and Klingon forces and civilian population centers. We did not attack the Tal'Shiar until they began attacking us. They have, since they killed Devoras, been the enemies of the Rihannsu and the Havrannsu. They have never acted in our best interests since Devoras Narviat was killed. They have shown themselves to be the enemy of the people, repeatedly.
I was merely pointing out that the Tal Shiar were willing to unite with the Republic. That's at least half a hand extended in some sort of semi-positive direction, and it's a precedent. We should see this be resolved and some sort of unification take place. It would be silly of D'Tan to expect reunification with the Vulcans if he can't even Reconcile two different groups of Romulans.
They were nothing of the sort. They were willing to make D'Tan the nominal "leader" of the Star Empire with themselves holding the actual power. What is silly is this attempt to portray the Tal'Shiar as somehow being victimized by the Republic and its leaders and supporters. D'Tan hears my counsel, and I have counseled him that Reunification with the Thaessu cannot happen anytime soon. You depict him as so idealistic as to be naive. A man who has done all that he has done in such a short time is anything but naive. He is a student of Cthia, including the discipline of Logic (something you would do well to learn yourself). Your caricature of D'Tan bears no resemblance to the actual man himself.
The Tal Shiar are far from innocent, but they were also never nearly as bad in the shows as they are in STO. They used to have a useful purpose, it would be ncie to see them return to the fold in some (less insane) form.
They were never depicted as anything more or less than what they have been shown to be in STO. There is no need for a Secret Police force in a free society such as the Republic. We have both the Tal'Diann and Militia Intelligence to take up the Intel work, and have no need for the Secret Police aspect of the Tal'Shiar. They are obsolete and unnecessary in the Republic.
Oh and good luck apprehending me, I may be higher-ranking in Republic Intelligence than you realize
You would be surprised at what intel I have on you, I'm sure. But there is no Republic Intelligence. There is Military Intelligence (the main and most well-known aspect of the Tal'Diann) and there is Militia Intelligence. The Republic has no civilian Intelligence service, nor can I imagine a scenario in which such an organization would be needed. It would be superfluous at best.
Some episode where you have to negotiate a surrender of Tal Shiar forces or attend some sort of conference merging the two governments together would be ideal I think. A sudden hail-mary attack (because conferences in ST only exist to be suddenly interrupted by enemies) by the die-hard hardcore Hakeev-type Tal Shiar remnants would help put those loonies to rest-and we'd have the best of both worlds-'traditional' RSE Romulans side by side under the old government alongside the more perspective D'Tan types, and the Hakeev-style Tal Shiar out of the way for good.
Again, you advocate for the irrational and the impossible. Merging the two governments together would be one of the most pointless and irrational things which could happen. Imperialists are not going to accept the Republic, and the Republic cannot surrender its freedom (so recently won with much blood spilled and many lives lost to gain that freedom) in order to become subjects once more to the Star Empire. In fact, here you even dare to suggest that we should all band together under the old government. The imperialists are in the minority and on the run. They have no position of power from which to negotiate such a settlement favoring their own preferred form of government. The very idea is a steaming pile of kine TRIBBLE. D'Tan is not going anywhere. His leadership is more than adequate. Indeed, his both capable and competent, qualities which have been missing in the leadership of the Star Empire since before the destruction of the Eisn system. The Star Empire began to rot from within long before the Hobus supernova, and that rot was not only allowed to continue, it was encouraged to grow until it ate the Star Empire and is now all that remains of a once mighty polity. Give up. You have been defeated. Your government is, at best, a ghost, and at worst, a gang of insane and/or brainwashed/programmed thugs. Your prejudices are obsolete. it is over. Give up. You will not have what your wishful thinking hopes for, and you must surely realize this, or you are indeed thoroughly brainwashed by your Tal'Shiar masters (or you are indeed a subversive Yyaio sent to stir trouble within the Republic).
Again, you advocate for the irrational and the impossible. Merging the two governments together would be one of the most pointless and irrational things which could happen. Imperialists are not going to accept the Republic, and the Republic cannot surrender its freedom (so recently won with much blood spilled and many lives lost to gain that freedom) in order to become subjects once more to the Star Empire. In fact, here you even dare to suggest that we should all band together under the old government. The imperialists are in the minority and on the run. They have no position of power from which to negotiate such a settlement favoring their own preferred form of government. The very idea is a steaming pile of kine TRIBBLE. D'Tan is not going anywhere. His leadership is more than adequate. Indeed, his both capable and competent, qualities which have been missing in the leadership of the Star Empire since before the destruction of the Eisn system. The Star Empire began to rot from within long before the Hobus supernova, and that rot was not only allowed to continue, it was encouraged to grow until it ate the Star Empire and is now all that remains of a once mighty polity. Give up. You have been defeated. Your government is, at best, a ghost, and at worst, a gang of insane and/or brainwashed/programmed thugs. Your prejudices are obsolete. it is over. Give up. You will not have what your wishful thinking hopes for, and you must surely realize this, or you are indeed thoroughly brainwashed by your Tal'Shiar masters (or you are indeed a subversive Yyaio sent to stir trouble within the Republic).
I must stop you at at d'tan is capable and competent. The man said before you go off to Khitomer that he'd sell off romulan technology for a helping hand if they gave him the best offer.
Sorry that isn't capable and competent. That's TRIBBLE off his people for a better deal. IMHO, D'Tan's leadership is at best FLAWED. Romulans can be allies with other factions, but not at the cost of giving away military secrets and technology and basically sending officers to do other nation's dirty work after doing the jobs nobody else wants to do, like deal with the Tal Shiar.
Sorry a middle ground MUST be found. D'Tan is leaning way too much rejoining Vulcan. No, just no. It's good to be on friendly relations and open exchange ideas and such but a line must be drawn somewhere.
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I must stop you at at d'tan is capable and competent. The man said before you go off to Khitomer that he'd sell off romulan technology for a helping hand if they gave him the best offer.
Sorry that isn't capable and competent. That's TRIBBLE off his people for a better deal. IMHO, D'Tan's leadership is at best FLAWED. Romulans can be allies with other factions, but not at the cost of giving away military secrets and technology and basically sending officers to do other nation's dirty work after doing the jobs nobody else wants to do, like deal with the Tal Shiar.
What else does D'Tan have to get the Klingons and Starfleet to do more then pay lipservice to existense of the Republic?
Shipping epohh pelt to Qo'NoS?
Mining resonating rocks to be used in Vulcan monasteries?
D'Tan wasn't thrilled with the prospects of this either, but being very practical this was the best way to achieve the security the Republic needed at this time. Both Starfleet and the KDF really didn't want to open a new front of the wars they have been fighting, but also didn't want the entire region of Romulan space to go into chaos. As had been said before, Thaleron weapons on cloaked starships piloted by very desperate people is a very bad thing. He probably gotten non-lethal aide from both the KDF and Starfleet, but nothing to help with securing the Republic from various forces in the region unless he through in a sweetener. This is called wartime diplomacy, and D'Tan did a very good job. As for our dear Republic ships working with in the command structures of the KDF and Starfleet, this usually happens when you enter an allies jurisdiction. We are not TRIBBLE ourselves out anymore then the KDF and Starfleet are to us. After all, we are allies, and allies are supposed to help one another. Sending the small number of ships with the most capable captains in the flotilla to help with what the KDF and Starfleet need pays big dividends in making sure the KDF and Starfleet good will and continued political and material support for the Republic. Nor are we doing all the dirty work for them, as they have sent ships into areas we are sent into.
The Republic may be naive, but it's been very practical in their dealings with Starfleet and KDF. They aren't trying to hide that they are 'using' them, nor is the Republic under any delusion that the moment it isnt advantageous for them, they won't drop us. Nor is the Republic trying to manipulate the most feared race in the galaxy, like the Tal Shiar/RSE is.
Ancient Griffon insult
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
The Republic may be naive, but it's been very practical in their dealings with Starfleet and KDF. They aren't trying to hide that they are 'using' them, nor is the Republic under any delusion that the moment it isnt advantageous for them, they won't drop us. Nor is the Republic trying to manipulate the most feared race in the galaxy, like the Tal Shiar/RSE is.
I would say "The Republic may be idealistic, but it is not naive."
But you have also to notice that since the supernova is "now" (around 2409) already some time ago, a certain number of leading Tal Shiar members had risen who had nothing to do with the thing. So the people with which negotiations would occur must not having anything to do with the supernova, given the fact that after Hakeev end and Selas kidnapping/whatever even the TS seems broken up un several groups - not to mentioned the rest of the Imperial Remnants.
You lost me at trying to argue that 23 years (from 2387, as of 2410) constitutes enough time to forget about the deliberate slaughter of 4,200,000,000+ people.
This conversation is officially too disturbing for me to continue.
You lost me at trying to argue that 23 years (from 2387, as of 2410) constitutes enough time to forget about the deliberate slaughter of 4,200,000,000+ people.
This conversation is officially too disturbing for me to continue.
For modern humans with an average lifespan of 75 years, that's a full THIRD of a lifetime. That's an entire generation give modern human norms.
Of course, we're talking about a race with a lifespan of TEN TIMES THAT. So to the the Hobus incident was more like... President Obama's first presidential election, to give a human perspective on it.
Comments
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
Though I suppose he might think he can save some of them...
You can still see traces of it on New Romulus with all the 'Republic' Uhlans walking around in 'Tal Shiar' Uniforms, as well as the Romulan captives in the Mountain Pass mission, who are similarly attired and say things like 'you have performed a great service for the empire' when you rescue them. or Obisek saying "my instincts tell me no, but I have no proof. Sela was at odds with the Tal Shiar. I do not believe it would be so if they served the same master". if you ask him if he thinks Sela was working for the Iconians.
I also would like to see how this went on. But You are right - a breaking up of the black-white is very unlikely (as sad as it is).
protogoth:
Well, than tell me the clear evidence for a D'Tan-style Romulan Republic in the past. I confess that I do not know all sources, so you might be right. But could you tell when it happened, how long it last and how it ended?
About the xenophobia...the Star Empire was very strict in protecting its borders. I also see not much evidence for members of others races being honoured allies and even reach the higher ranks of the Star Empire, become full-citizen etc. Even Remans had problems with that (of course THAT is a difference from the Roman Empire, in which allied people could become Romans by duty in the army and other ways). So I think that is some evidence for xenophobia, as you admit. I do not say it is the inner core of their feeling, but it seems a element which is wide spread - and surely hard to give up.
peregry
I have no problem with democratic elements in a Roman way - surely you know that over centuries the roman nobles had more or less control in the senate, some families "owned" nearly the post as consul (I mean, that the people who have this rank come in great parts from very few families over centuries, off course all from the nobility). If that would be the case, I had less problems with the republic.
And I would also disagree that the things shown on the screen about the enemies of the Federation should define the complete truth. They show more or less the Federation perspective - your rarely hear debates in the Romulan Command and in the Tal Shiar. What picture we would have about the Klingons if we centre only on the "old" Enterprise-series? Not the best, and surely not the complete truth.
We see the actions around ONE (or only a few) star ship(s) or a space station. Could you see that as the whole picture? I disagree. No Secret Service could exist if he is completely incompetent. And surely some Romulans hate the Tal Shiar (with cause). But I guess other trust them as protectors against inner fighting and outside enemies.
protogoth
How you could believe that a complete organization which mans dozens of ships (with crew of hundreds and thousands each) and form several regiments of ground forces, run several space stations etc. - if all that could be done only by mad killers and sadistic thugs is beyond my imagination. I guess never in history of any race there was a organization which was made up in this way (anyway how horrible things they do). There are simply not enough people who fit your description. You could convince people to do horrible things by convincing them that it is their duty etc., by de-humanizing the enemies (like you do against the TS
"You have not given a single good reason apart from some sentimental hoohah amounting to something like "all Romulans ought to sit down at the campfire and sing Kum Ba Yah."
Well, YOU have not give a good "reason" beside from "they bad, they are bad, THEY ARE BAD - IIIIKS!" A bit too few reasons for ongoing war. Is it not a good reason that the Romulan people are few, that our enemies are strong, that D'Tans allies could not really be trusted and that the power of the Republic is weak?
We need their ship, we need their men, we need their money, too. And after the loss of billions of Romulans in the last decades, pardon me if I have no longer the wish that ONE more dies unnecessary.
And where and how did D'Tan honouring the traditions of the Empire of the last centuries, the society and military that had works so long well for your Empire? He seems sometimes more ready to speak to former enemies from other Empires than to people of his kin who where in the past his enemies. Not the best decision.
"The Star Empire, such of it as remains which is not the Tall'Shiar, does not want to unite with the Republic. To do so would be to stop being imperialists. "
Well, perhaps the Republic has done too much to alienate them and to little to bargain with them? And what would be bad to be "imperialists"? Do you only want to spit on the great Empire, the Empire for which so much Romulans - your father, grandfather and so on, too, I guess - lived and died? I see you seem already influenced by the sick ideas of the Federation already, thinking "imperialism" is something bad (I guess our Klingon Allies did also see that a little different - You see, I am not against making friends with ours, with the Klingons the Empire had at least a common ground over some years). How could you so easily adapt foreign ideas, forgetting all what generationy of Romuland had died for? This is beyond my imagination. The Empire is/ was our past, and a proud past. It could also be again our future, with some adaptations to minimize the risk of some mistakes. And please, show me where in our history a Romulan Republic in the way like D'Tan is forming was living and successful. What did she do you the Romulan People? You will see, that "imperialistic" policy did work much better. I see no reason giving that past up for some ideas which are at least in some part influenced by people with which we fought from the first contact on.
Your view against the Empire shows, that you are dancing on the graves of billions of Romulans, of complete generations. It looks like as if you welcome the extinction of the Empire, a catastrophe which killed so many of us. Sorry, my comrade, but is that the Republic I am working for, who see the glorious past of our people only as mistake? Than I wonder what kind of state D'Tan is dreaming for. Surely one, most Romulans will never accept. To judge a at least in part foreign ideal and political thinking over the past of the own people is heartless and stupid, cause it will never be able to re-unite all or at least most Romulans. Call me naiv and brainwashed, but I guess exactly this whish, to re-unite the Empire and its People (with some differences) will be the dream of much more Romulans than you think.
Not going to argue about the uniforms, though, those certainly are vestiges of older stuff. Although a lot of Imperial defectors and such would probably be there and the zone is often rather ragtag, considering the use of the Romulan Survivor outfits on various NPCs, so it's probably supposed to be passed off as part of that, I guess. Explains why they haven't made it a priority to switch that around anyway.
Not even going to bother trying to keep up with everyone in every post in here. I need to remind myself that these arguments never really convince anyone involved of anything and they're just the same arguments that have been repeated around here over and over again.
Star Trek's "canon" is a laughable joke when it comes right down to it, and changed at least 3 times a season, so really all of these arguments we have are laughable.
I've wondered this at times myself, I *think* it comes from the fact that, aside from magic-ing up Remans, we only ever see Romulans in the Empire. Similarly in all the novella we have... Romulans, thats it.
The Klingon Empire has, off screen, "subjugated" other species in its history which we never see or really hear about except the occasional line of text or two in background "fluff" info. Its just different enough.
Combine the Romulans only and their historical tendency to stick in their little corner of the galaxy w/o impacting the Federation/Empire much and I think you have most peoples illusion of xenophobia. There have also been soft canon products that list a long history of warring the races/nations on their borders like Gorn, which is likely a contributing factor.
All in all Romulans as portrayed "on screen" or in hard canon haven't really showed xenophobia. Distaste when dealing with others? Yes. Elitist and Romulan Supremacist attitudes? Definitely. Possibly a case of collective anti-social, social introverts? But not 'zomg it's not romulan! killitkillitkillit!!!!' which is generally how xenopohbia manifests itself.
I gotta say to the ones advocating being 'nice' to the Tal Shiar remnants... Yeah... I'll 'be nice' and give them a swift and painless death. There may be Imperial remnants that can be salvaged and brought into the Republic or, my preference, a new Raptor Empire, but the Tal Shiar? No, I'm afraid that one is just one big cancerous lump that needs to be excised. If it weren't for the fact that you see from a first person perspective exactly what they do to their own operatives, I could possibly agree with you. But having seen/experienced that, and combined with how mind numb Charva was even, how can you possibly make an excuse for them? Commander Janek, and Charva are the closest we get to actually salvageable operatives. Janek definitely showed signs of both patriotism and a conscience, but was also willing to purge an entire world of Remans, and immediately sold out Hakeev to save her own TRIBBLE... further she was willing to commit murder to avoid ending up a prisoner in her own listening post. Charva, well that girl obviously needs a few years with a specialist de-programmer psychiatrist before she's ready to return to society. If these two represent our BEST chances of incorporating Tal Shiar into our society, then the average members of that corrupt organization are just non-starters.
(Where's the fun in that?)
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
I would agree in most parts with your analyses about Sela (but this is only theoretical, we simply do not know enough about her exact role in every part of the story).
And sure, the ways in which different people see the question Empire vs Republic vs Tal Shiar is hardly open to changes (I make no difference, I do not believe that I will change my opinion much)
By the way what make me sometimes wonder is how easy some "Republicans" are willing to offer a open hand (or agreeing with such a policy) to long time enemies compared to their (more or less) strict thinking about including elements of the Tal Shiar and the Imperial Remnants. I mean, beeing nice to the Remans (Obiseks actions, and the role several Remans had in that Picard-clone coup), the Federation (the Romulans and the humans were enemies from the start, and that changed later only for limited time) and Klingons (there was a agreement during the classic Enterprise, of course, but later years of bitter conflict). If the Republic is so easy to offer peace, friendship and candy to all of them, than why not to other Romulans? Spilled blood in the past seem not matter so much in that cases, but only when it comes to the TS/ Imperial Remnants.
kodachikuno
I think you could be xenophobic beside killing everything that has not pointed ears and green blood. What you decribe sounds in my ears very much xenophobic. Not in the most brutal way, but far enough.
And only offering the TS - ALL of them - a quick death is indeed as brutal and criminal as the action all Republicans are complaining about. It is hardly to believe that every Uhlan in the TS in brainwashed or a psycho or so on. The TS-Flett and ground forces are made of far to much people that you could judge them all the same. And if you ever want a new Empire, you will need them, any of them. Or your Empires will be made out of the bones of fellow Romulans - as some people seem to dream of when it comes to D'Tans chair. That would neither a Republic nor a Empire I would support.
I mean lets honestly break it down. The Tal Shair is the STO version of the KGB. They will do ANYTHING to secure power supposedly in the name of the Romulan Empire. Instead they have caused the biggest catastrophe in Romulan history, and then want to try and go back to business as usual of ruling from behind the scenes with D'Tan?
Yeah, already proven that won't work. Tal Shiar need to wake up and smell the coffee. They screwed the pooch, got a WHOLE lot of people killed, and their day has past.
Though on the other hand D'Tan is pissing away a lot of what it means to be Romulan. Sure you can choose to drop the iron wall and become allies more openly, but it's like he's TRIBBLE out the romulans to the side which offers the most in the game.
Sorry there needs to be a 3rd way in the middle of these two positions. Open enough to ally and help neighbors, but not forgetting what it means to be ROMULAN.
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But I would agree 100 percent with your call for a third way (but perhaps we could argue about what way this would be).
There's a reason or several for that.
It involves the deaths of over 4.2 billion people and the destruction of the homeworld, a crime that eclipses anything in real history, and pretty much everything in the Empire's aside from perhaps the attempt to exterminate the Changelings before the Dominion War made by the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order...which failed, so it doesn't stand out as much.
And also, Iconians.
The Tal Shiar, or more specifically Hakeev and (if we believe her) a duped Taris, sold out everyone in the Romulan Star Empire for a chance at retaining their power in a future New Iconian Empire, and by all indications, they remain loyal to this legacy, as indicated by Hakeev's final message to Commander Ruul.
For all their bluster about the Republic and independent colonies being traitors, they are the ones who turned traitor first, twenty-three years ago. Anyone knowingly loyal to that by choice is not remotely trustworthy, and the brainwashing victims can't be reasoned with for obvious reasons. And before I hear about 'but they forgave everyone else!': I don't see the blood of everyone who was on Romulus when it was destroyed on the hands of the Federation or the Klingon Empire. The Remans...may have, had Shinzon had the chance, not to mention Obisek's planning to thalaron Hfihar to take out the liistening post. Yet considering the many, many years of slavery, I find that...somewhat more difficult to judge. I suspect working with them, and the Federation and Klingon Empire working with the Republic in general, to be partly motivated by trying to keep them from ending up resorting to such extremes again. Nobody wants a desperate, angry people with thalaron weapons and cloaking devices backed into a corner.
That would be...
Unfortunate, to put it mildly.
No, not at all. I'm saying that the portrayals of VULCAN CLAIMS MANY CENTURIES AFTER THE FACT should be taken with a very large grain of salt, whether they come from the shows or a comic book or a movie or a novel or any other source, because listening to the enemies of another people in order to get anything remotely akin to an accurate picture of that people is rather irrational.
The ancestors of the Romulans did not kill Surak. I don't care what the Vulcan establishment declared to be "true history" before the beginning of the Syrranite Reform (and frankly, even after the beginning of the Syrranite Reform, the facts of the matter will have been so well concealed, if not completely erased, that the new Vulcan establishment are most unlikely to ever be able to sort the truth from the lies of the former establishment). This is the same establishment which distorted Cthia to serve their own ends, and would have continued to be the dominant interpetation of Cthia had it not been for Archer and T'Pol helping T'Pau and her bunch to find the original writings of Surak.
What makes you think that V'Las was the first and only dishonest Vulcan leader? The distorted view of Cthia promoted by the Vulcan establishment in his era did not gain such traction in Vulcan society overnight, nor from the work of one man, especially seeing as he only came to power in 2154, the same year he was removed from power! No, this distortion of Cthia had been around much longer than V'Las. Of course there were Surakians who were true to the Kir'Shara in Surak's time, but to assume that they were the only proto-Vulcans pushing a version of Cthia at that time is to be blind to how religions experience schism and sectarianism. Even in the time of Paul, there were already sects among those who claimed to follow the teachings of Jesus. This is not an unique situation by any means.
Maybe on New Romulus, but I don't remember anything of the sort when meeting him on the Flotilla. Of course, the intro to New Romulus can be reviewed at any time, but the only way to review the meeting on the Flotilla is to make a new character and play through those missions again. I have done those missions three times now, and I took screenshots. Reviewing those when I was doing research for "Ahr'fvahir mnean?", I do not recall seeing a mention of Reunification.
I don't believe I implied anything of the sort. However, there is a certain core group of agitators for the RSE and/or the TS who seem to be present in each of those threads, and that group is quite small by comparison with those who take the opposite position.
Yes, when some yahoo came into this forum and posted a plan to invade New Romulus with Tal'Shiar forces, I absolutely did state that I would be there to kill or die in opposing them. Incidentally, this was also the thread where supporters of the Republic came out of the woodwork to agree with my sentiments, and I didn't "summon" any of them; they came of their own volition without any action on my part. Their numbers in that one thread far outweighed all of the core group and the occasional posters who have agitated for the RSE and/or TS throughout the history of this forum. Yet you continue to claim to be in the majority, directly contradicting all the evidence to the contrary.
Why would -- or should -- the Republic welcome their own enemies to come inside and destroy from the inside? The very idea is insanity. But you have been told and shown repeatedly that the beginnings of the Republic were found in members of the Imperial Star Navy who willingly chose to establish a separatist movement, and, far from tolerating their desire to be separate, the RSE hunted and persecuted them at every opportunity, with the TS going so far as to attack loyal citizens of two colony worlds (at least two) who had nothing to do with the separatist movement and were just going about their lives. The RSE is not the victim in this, and your attempts, and those of caedicius, to portray them as such are the height of brazen falsehood.
But, and here's something you just don't seem to grasp, D'Tan did not want to be part of the RSE, let alone its leader. The RSE killed itself through nepotism, incompetence, madness, lust for power, preferring "noble" Senators over those who were more capable, allowing self-absorbed and self-centered power-mongers take the highest positions of leadership in spite of the evidence that they would never serve the Romulan people (nor even act in the best interests of the Star Empire itself) but only help themselves to the biggest helping at the table and refuse for even morsels to be given to the people.
The Tal'Shiar offer was not as pure and innocent as you attempt to portray it, and you are very well aware of that fact. They wanted far more than "a place in his government," and you know that very well, too. They have been scheming to take control of the RSE for quite some time, and that is also something you know quite well. Yet here you are again, spewing the most ridiculous pro-RSE and even pro-TS nonsense in an effort to subvert the Republic. I'm going to have you arrested and tossed in a Republic prison if I ever get the chance. Then we'll get the truth out of you about who you're working for and how much they've paid you or what they've promised you in return for these propaganda efforts.
Or maybe, just maybe, he knew they would never agree to meet openly and negotiate openly, because they would never have the support of the Senate of the New Republic, much less the people of the New Republic, and thus he was calling their bluff.
I have done so before:
http://tal-diann.blogspot.com/p/arhfvahir-mnean-what-are-we.html
We have discussed this view more than once in the past in this forum, and a more than sufficient number of examples to counter the view have been provided, especially with regard to Kares and Di'on Charvon and how they interacted with Federation personnel even during confrontations, as well as Doctor Telek R'Mor's interactions with Federation personnel even when he was afraid it was some sort of Tal'Shiar trick to entrap him.
The first part of what you say is entirely relevant to what I've been trying to get across about Vulcan claims regarding The Sundering. The latter part is uninformed. Everything the Tal'Shiar has ever attempted on screen has been a mockery of what an Intelligence service should do. Have you played through all the Romulan missions in STO? I suggest you do so before you continue trying to defend the Tal'Shiar.
Again, have you played through all of the Romulan missions in STO? It does not seem to me that you have. We do not need the Tal'Shiar. Their leadership was filled with madmen, and their rank and file were subjected to brainwashing and even the use of Borg assimilation techniques to literally program them to be little more than drones. These facts account rather easily for the incompetence so characteristic of the Tal'Shiar and their efforts.
Again, have you played through all the Romulan missions in STO? Again, it does not seem that you have. Again, I suggest you do so before further attempts to defend the Tal'Shiar.
Quoted for truth.
To see that as the whole truth would be so one-sided as claiming that you only need to look some TV-session to know anything about the Klingon, Romulan etc. society (because such things are shown only in SOME of them, and rarely in detail). It shows FEW people in CERTAIN circumstances - and from a pro-Federation point ov view, since they are the "heroes" (if there would be more series/ books from the point of view of Romulans etc., the things would be different, I guess). Look at the way some races "changed" over the years. The Klingons had "changed" in the way they are shown and judged (and will perhaps doing so in future).
And you quoted the historian at Virinat. She seems to be not so negative about the Empire - she said they created an Empire. Not "a republic".
admiraldc
Bit did the Klingons shot any member of thei political, military and industrial elite after the Praxis-catastrophe which nearly made their homeworld a desert? Surely not. The supernova was of course in the result worse, but the problem is the same (and there were also people in Star Fleet which experiments etc. went wrong and created a lot of problems). Did anyone say lets kill all El-Aurians because one of them had tried do destroy an entire system (Generations)?
Did the simple uhlan or even centurion of the TS have anything to do with the supernova? How many TS did know the risk in the things some of them were doing and how many were indeed involved in the project? The answer is very likely "very few", in the hundreds at best, I guess. To punish all of the TS for that (many of them surely joined the ranks long after the supernova) would be barbaric and blind.
And does the Federation not wasted the blood of many Romulans in the several conflicts the Empire had with the humans? From the first contact on there was war or at least tensions, and that cost a lot I guess
Oh come-on....we had an episode that showed the nukes going off that killed Surak from Surak's own perspective. Or are you suggesting that Surak would lie about the circumstances of his death? Also, got a bit of a chuckle out of me suggesting that Surak's own followers dropped an atomic bomb on him as part of some evil conspiracy to twist his doctrine. You are making the Vulcans sound more 'Romulan' than the Romulans themselves. Syrran had Surak's katra in him for more than a decade-IMO plenty of time for Surak's katra to soak in what happened and I think-give credence to his claim that the 'modern' Vulcans at that time were backsliding from the gains they had made at the time of Awakening.
I Don't think he was the first or only dischonest Vulcan leader. I also don't think Romulan influence over the Vulcans was limited to just him and his brief stint as leader. A conspiracy like the Romulan-Vulcan reunification they were planning would require a lot of manpower in high positions IMO. Both Vuclan sympathizers and undercover Romulan operatives. A likely scenario si that they were manipulating things behind the scenes for some time. Supposedly a plot point that would have made it into ENT had it run on for longer would have revealed T'Pol to be half Romulan, which would indicate a this was going on for quite some time. Wouldn't be the first time the Romulans played the long-game. They had an Romulan serving as a Vulcan ambassador for quite some time, and of course, Spock was duped by a Romulan who built a reputation as a progressive sort of politician for years so he could get into Spock's trust before betraying him.
Perhaps it was somewhere else. I'm out of free character slots and I'm not about to delete one of them and start over just to humor you. There's at least one example which you cannot refuse.
Nice to see another plug for your fleet. sometimes it seems like we can't go two pages without getting another one.
The irony here is amazing.
I suspect the criteria you are using to count who supports the Republic and who does not is...flawed. Heck, even on this very page we have new blood... who don't seem to be seeing eye-to-eye with you 100% here. I don't think I have seen caedicus around too much before. All the other threads like this are similar....also I didn't say you 'summoned' anyone to that thread.
Still, It's easy to drum up support for one faction over another when one is a mustache-twirling caricature of an already 'dark' organization and the other is a chimera of the Bajoran Resistance and Rebel Alliance by the Devs own admission. If these threads show us anything, it's that a lot of people think the Republic-Tal Shiar is some rather lazy writing and could have been handled with a lot more finesse than it was. Heck, even I don't really want to play as Tal Shiar as they are written in STO, in case you have forgotten.
The Republic is welcoming to Reman pirates that by the game's own writing hunt and kill Romulan civilians for sport, who's leader is perfectly willing to use Thalaron weapons on civilian targets if it hurts the Tal Shiar, and who regularly raids Federation space. Not nice guys Heck, Obisek will even try to kill the player on more than one occasion. Meanwhile, they are also allying with the Federation-who they have historically been at odds with for ages, and the Klingons. These guys torture to death Romulan prisoners of war. They tried to conquer the empire at least once in recent memory. They are basically blood enemies. If they can accept those kinds of alliances, some pardons should not be too much.
I was merely pointing out that the Tal Shiar were willing to unite with the Republic. That's at least half a hand extended in some sort of semi-positive direction, and it's a precedent. We should see this be resolved and some sort of unification take place. It would be silly of D'Tan to expect reunification with the Vulcans if he can't even Reconcile two different groups of Romulans.
The Tal Shiar are far from innocent, but they were also never nearly as bad in the shows as they are in STO. They used to have a useful purpose, it would be ncie to see them return to the fold in some (less insane) form.
Oh and good luck apprehending me, I may be higher-ranking in Republic Intelligence than you realize
To say it strait befor there is any debate: I am indeed not very "old" here - in the game for almost half a year, in the forum a much shorter time.
And I agree, the TS in the way it is shown is not very amazing (if I could not live with the Republic as such I would not play), but I think some changes in the way the TS is shown and in the actions of the Republic could only make the game better.
Mistakes in leadership and administration leading to the Praxis event are not remotely equivalent to the deliberate destruction of Romulus at the behest of a foreign power.
That said, you seem to not have noticed how I phrased part of what I said.
Given the heavy level of intel classification that goes on in intelligence agencies and particularly one like the Tal Shiar, I wouldn't be surprised if a significant part of the rank and file are simply ignorant of many of their crimes, Hobus chief among them. The leadership, however, is not, and it is the leaders that represent them in any attempts at 'negotiation,' such as that they attempted with D'Tan.
The low-level ones may occasionally defect, and these have been welcomed. One such officer is Lt. Selan of the Lleiset, a member of the Tal Shiar who was assimilated by the Borg while attempting to gather their technology for study and was liberated by the Republic.
Some episode where you have to negotiate a surrender of Tal Shiar forces or attend some sort of conference merging the two governments together would be ideal I think. A sudden hail-mary attack (because conferences in ST only exist to be suddenly interrupted by enemies) by the die-hard hardcore Hakeev-type Tal Shiar remnants would help put those loonies to rest-and we'd have the best of both worlds-'traditional' RSE Romulans side by side under the old government alongside the more perspective D'Tan types, and the Hakeev-style Tal Shiar out of the way for good.
But you have also to notice that since the supernova is "now" (around 2409) already some time ago, a certain number of leading Tal Shiar members had risen who had nothing to do with the thing. So the people with which negotiations would occur must not having anything to do with the supernova, given the fact that after Hakeev end and Selas kidnapping/whatever even the TS seems broken up un several groups - not to mentioned the rest of the Imperial Remnants.
catoblepasbeta
That sounds nice (perhaps it also be a nice idea if in that case there must be some parts of the Republic convinced to take part/ a hard-core Republican or a man/ woman with personal anger try to interrupt the meeting with a assassination-attempt (ok, that all sounds a little bit like The Undiscovered Land
Try to keep up, will you? Did I say followers of Surak killed him? No, I suggested that some of those who had perverted his teachings might have done so. There is quite a difference between saying "Surak's followers killed him in order to twist his doctrine" and saying "Some of those who twisted his doctrine may have killed him." We have here something very odd which may be due to one or more of several possibilities: you are either not paying attention to what I say, not comprehending what I say, or intentionally building Straw Men of what I say. In any of those cases, you are demonstrating that what you have to say in reply to me is largely irrelevant to anything I have said. I have also said that there were several rival sects of Surakians even in his own time. To suggest that the sect(s) responsible for the twisted interpretation managed to establish their own view of his doctrine as the orthodoxy of that time would be ridiculous. Of course it would be ridiculous, and I have not said so, but that is what you claim I said. Again, you are either not paying attention, not comprehending, or intentionally misrepresenting what I have said. In any case, you are not criticizing my position, but something which you have invented, innocently or intentionally. The Te-Vikram Brotherhood attacked ShiKahr. This was not the first, nor the last, act of violence on their part. Those who remained on Vulcan continued their terrorist activities, and those who left continued to make trouble for the proto-Romulans, leading a successful mutiny on one of the Great Ships with the assistance of some of the Technocrats. When the crew of that vessel destroyed it, members of both the Te-Vikram Brotherhood and the Technocrats demanded a shuttle, which they received, and then left the fleet. However, there were yet members of both of those factions still with the Exiles when they reached the Eisn system. You keep saying "the Romulans killed Surak with nuclear weapons." There were no Romulans in Surak's time. When I point this out repeatedly, you finally resort to "the ancestors of the Romulans killed Surak with nuclear weapons." Still yet, the Te-Vikram Brotherhood are not counted by Romulans as among their ancestors. Few even mention the Technocrats, although they had considerable influence on early Romulan society. No, when Romulans speak of their ancestors, they speak of Tellus and S'Task. Those are the two most revered of the proto-Romulans, but it was due to S'Task having become regarded by the younger folk that his influence waned for a time, and the mad queen of the two worlds from hfihar s'Rehu was able to get away with having him murdered on the floor of the Senate. However, eventually, he was again revered as a forebear. So there were nuclear explosions. Was Tellus responsible? Was S'Task? Were the Children of Ket-Cheleb or the followers of S'Task? No. The Te-Vikram Brotherhood, which was around before Surak, and was already engaging in terrorist acts before Surak, was the group which attacked ShiKahr. They were not "dissenters" from Cthia. They were the unconverted who refused to convert, and found themselves on the Great Ships by accident and necessity. This is why they mutinied and tried to take one of the ships back to the Mother World. They had no desire to leave. They were not Romulan, nor proto-Romulan.
You insist that all of these varied groups were "those who marched beneath the Raptor's wings," just as the Thaessu refuse to make distinctions. I begin to suspect that you are not in fact an Imperialist supporting the Shiar ih'Saeihr Rihan, nor a Tal'Shiar sympathizer, at all, but rather, one of the Yyaiosu masquerading as a Rihanha and coming here to attempt to subvert the Republic and sew doubt in the minds of those who do support the Republic. Shaenhanen Yyaio! Did T'Nae put you up to this?
So one single mention that I grant means that D'Tan is, whether openly or secretly, plotting to push Reunification as the official policy of the government? Are you really this desperate?
The link I provided is to a discussion of Romulan history/culture/identity. That it happens to be on the same site which serves as the web-embassy of my fleet, and that the final page of it (a six page work, of which the first page is brief and introductory, and of which the final page is also brief, but very much a part of the history of the Romulan people as of 2410 in STO) discusses the formation of my fleet, is yet another red herring which you have now seized upon in yet another desperate move to again try to change the subject of this discussion away from what we are actually talking about to yet another attack upon me. You try to veil these personal attacks. I call you a brainwashed stooge of the Tal'Shiar or a Vulcan deceiver openly. There is no need for me to point this out, however; most people who have followed our war of words have surely noticed that your agenda is not one which would benefit the Rihannsu or the Havrannsu, but would instead have quite the opposite effect. But if you would think to accuse me of Argumentum ad Hominem, think again. When the evidence of your own words points so heavily to one or the other of these views being rather likely, to not state the likely possibilities would be leaving a key part of the situation unsaid. Your aim does no benefit to the Rihannsu or Havrannsu, but, quite the contrary, supports enemies of the people, whether those enemies be Yyaiosu or Tal'Shiar.
The very thread to which you appealed was the one which demonstrated what a minority your apparent (note: apparent, not necessarily actual) position is. The irony involved here is in your refusal to admit that you simply don't have the numbers necessary to pull off the destruction of the Republic as you wish, and that you will not concede that we outnumber you by so much that all of your agitating for the RSE and Tal'Shiar is never going to result in anything which could rival the Republic.
See, here you go again. One new person shows up who espouses what you profess to espouse, and right away, you insist that I'm being ironic because I still point out that there is a core group (of perhaps 5-7 people who regularly post in this forum) agitating in favor of the RSE and/or the Tal'Shiar, but let's look at what I actually said: "the core group and the occasional posters" -- occasional posters, right there, accounting for all the one-hit wonders and those who wander in and decide to join up with the propaganda campaign. You go look again at the Tal'Shiar thread and see what was said, if you are capable of comprehending what was said. You'll see rather clearly an overwhelming number of people who support the Republic, far outnumbering your little group.
The fault here is in your refusal to acknowledge that the Tal'Shiar in the shows was never depicted in any other manner. They were always shown to be a gang of thugs. They were always mustache-twirling villains. This is not a caricature of the Tal'Shiar of the shows in the least, but a faithful depiction of them.
You also easily overlook the several places in which I have stated openly that I would have preferred a Romulan Star Empire taken back to what it was before TNG came along and gave the revisionist toads whom you idolize as "real" Romulans.
And, while I'm on this subject, I'm going to address something you've hurled about a few times in reply to me, which I failed to address in my last group of posts. You have more than once resorted to some newer novel which "retconned" the Tal'Shiar to have existed long before Narviat was Praetor. The problem with this is again the issue of continuity. You accuse me of cherry-picking the evidence, rejecting hard canon in favor of soft canon when it suits me. I have stated several times in this forum that my picking and choosing was done without bias, and that I could rather easily have painted an even worse picture of the RSE, but my concern was not with any particular agenda, instead being concerned with making something consistent out of all the continuity issues in the various series and movies, with the aid of soft canon. The reason I reject the revisionist earlier date of Tal'Shiar founding is really quite simple: TOS Romulans showed absolutely none of the characteristics which you persist in asserting to be characteristic of the Romulan people. They acted as they chose without any concern for some Secret Police thugs looking over their shoulder or listening in on their words and deeds. There is no evidence at all that such an organization existed in that time, and quite a lot which points to the opposite conclusion, namely, that there was no Tal'Shiar until after the dates of TOS. In fact, the formation of the Tal'Shiar in the years between the end of TOS (and TAS, for that matter) and the beginning of TNG is quite consistent with the change in the Romulans between TOS/TAS and TNG, and serves very well to explain that change rather easily -- much better, in fact, than any other attempted explanation I have yet seen. My concern is being consistent, and not whitewashing things nor smearing other things with mud as you have accused multiple times.
Cry me a river. This victim-playing is the most amazing attempt you have yet made in your efforts to subvert the Republic. We do not so easily forget what the Star Empire has done to our families and friends, both in the form of the Tal'Shiar and in the form of the Star Empire itself. This was supposed to be a government acting for the good of our people, and what it did was anything but good for our people. We have been allies with the Klling'hannsu more than once in the past. Governments change when their leaders change. Praetor Dralath launched the attack on Narendra-III, and the fact of his insanity is not a matter of debate. Some Romulans even tried to stop it, and fought on the side of the Klling'hannsu and the Lloannen'galae against those forces sent by the mad Praetor, but it was Romulans, under Dralath, who violated the alliance with the Klling'hannsu. Of course some Klling'hannsu would be bitter over this and hold a grudge and be biased against all Rihannsu because of it, and would naturally be expected to attempt to strike out. The Federation has been our enemy at times, and at other times had no relations whatsoever with us, and we have also worked with them on more than one occasion. The RSE enslaved the Havrannsu; their feelings are perfectly understandable. The Tal'Shiar, on the other hand, need no provocation for their senseless violence against innocent and loyal citizens. Since the assassination of Praetor Devoras, their leaders have ever been dupes or madmen, and their rank and file have ever been brainwashed (in more recent times subjected to Borg assimilation techniques to turn them into mindlessly obedient stooges). This is the key difference. We have attacked Federation and Klingon forces and civilian population centers. We did not attack the Tal'Shiar until they began attacking us. They have, since they killed Devoras, been the enemies of the Rihannsu and the Havrannsu. They have never acted in our best interests since Devoras Narviat was killed. They have shown themselves to be the enemy of the people, repeatedly.
They were nothing of the sort. They were willing to make D'Tan the nominal "leader" of the Star Empire with themselves holding the actual power. What is silly is this attempt to portray the Tal'Shiar as somehow being victimized by the Republic and its leaders and supporters. D'Tan hears my counsel, and I have counseled him that Reunification with the Thaessu cannot happen anytime soon. You depict him as so idealistic as to be naive. A man who has done all that he has done in such a short time is anything but naive. He is a student of Cthia, including the discipline of Logic (something you would do well to learn yourself). Your caricature of D'Tan bears no resemblance to the actual man himself.
They were never depicted as anything more or less than what they have been shown to be in STO. There is no need for a Secret Police force in a free society such as the Republic. We have both the Tal'Diann and Militia Intelligence to take up the Intel work, and have no need for the Secret Police aspect of the Tal'Shiar. They are obsolete and unnecessary in the Republic.
You would be surprised at what intel I have on you, I'm sure. But there is no Republic Intelligence. There is Military Intelligence (the main and most well-known aspect of the Tal'Diann) and there is Militia Intelligence. The Republic has no civilian Intelligence service, nor can I imagine a scenario in which such an organization would be needed. It would be superfluous at best.
Again, you advocate for the irrational and the impossible. Merging the two governments together would be one of the most pointless and irrational things which could happen. Imperialists are not going to accept the Republic, and the Republic cannot surrender its freedom (so recently won with much blood spilled and many lives lost to gain that freedom) in order to become subjects once more to the Star Empire. In fact, here you even dare to suggest that we should all band together under the old government. The imperialists are in the minority and on the run. They have no position of power from which to negotiate such a settlement favoring their own preferred form of government. The very idea is a steaming pile of kine TRIBBLE. D'Tan is not going anywhere. His leadership is more than adequate. Indeed, his both capable and competent, qualities which have been missing in the leadership of the Star Empire since before the destruction of the Eisn system. The Star Empire began to rot from within long before the Hobus supernova, and that rot was not only allowed to continue, it was encouraged to grow until it ate the Star Empire and is now all that remains of a once mighty polity. Give up. You have been defeated. Your government is, at best, a ghost, and at worst, a gang of insane and/or brainwashed/programmed thugs. Your prejudices are obsolete. it is over. Give up. You will not have what your wishful thinking hopes for, and you must surely realize this, or you are indeed thoroughly brainwashed by your Tal'Shiar masters (or you are indeed a subversive Yyaio sent to stir trouble within the Republic).
I must stop you at at d'tan is capable and competent. The man said before you go off to Khitomer that he'd sell off romulan technology for a helping hand if they gave him the best offer.
Sorry that isn't capable and competent. That's TRIBBLE off his people for a better deal. IMHO, D'Tan's leadership is at best FLAWED. Romulans can be allies with other factions, but not at the cost of giving away military secrets and technology and basically sending officers to do other nation's dirty work after doing the jobs nobody else wants to do, like deal with the Tal Shiar.
Sorry a middle ground MUST be found. D'Tan is leaning way too much rejoining Vulcan. No, just no. It's good to be on friendly relations and open exchange ideas and such but a line must be drawn somewhere.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
What else does D'Tan have to get the Klingons and Starfleet to do more then pay lipservice to existense of the Republic?
Shipping epohh pelt to Qo'NoS?
Mining resonating rocks to be used in Vulcan monasteries?
D'Tan wasn't thrilled with the prospects of this either, but being very practical this was the best way to achieve the security the Republic needed at this time. Both Starfleet and the KDF really didn't want to open a new front of the wars they have been fighting, but also didn't want the entire region of Romulan space to go into chaos. As had been said before, Thaleron weapons on cloaked starships piloted by very desperate people is a very bad thing. He probably gotten non-lethal aide from both the KDF and Starfleet, but nothing to help with securing the Republic from various forces in the region unless he through in a sweetener. This is called wartime diplomacy, and D'Tan did a very good job. As for our dear Republic ships working with in the command structures of the KDF and Starfleet, this usually happens when you enter an allies jurisdiction. We are not TRIBBLE ourselves out anymore then the KDF and Starfleet are to us. After all, we are allies, and allies are supposed to help one another. Sending the small number of ships with the most capable captains in the flotilla to help with what the KDF and Starfleet need pays big dividends in making sure the KDF and Starfleet good will and continued political and material support for the Republic. Nor are we doing all the dirty work for them, as they have sent ships into areas we are sent into.
The Republic may be naive, but it's been very practical in their dealings with Starfleet and KDF. They aren't trying to hide that they are 'using' them, nor is the Republic under any delusion that the moment it isnt advantageous for them, they won't drop us. Nor is the Republic trying to manipulate the most feared race in the galaxy, like the Tal Shiar/RSE is.
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
I would say "The Republic may be idealistic, but it is not naive."
You lost me at trying to argue that 23 years (from 2387, as of 2410) constitutes enough time to forget about the deliberate slaughter of 4,200,000,000+ people.
This conversation is officially too disturbing for me to continue.
For modern humans with an average lifespan of 75 years, that's a full THIRD of a lifetime. That's an entire generation give modern human norms.
Of course, we're talking about a race with a lifespan of TEN TIMES THAT. So to the the Hobus incident was more like... President Obama's first presidential election, to give a human perspective on it.