...Form what i can tell duelling in 5v5 against bugs, my hunter nearly always outruns and outlasts those. I am nearly always turning faster and even if i'm not the enemy pilot will only get me for a split second into his firing arc, before i'm out of it already. Another advantage i see with the hunter is the ability to use a tractor beam with it and not loose any other essential ability doing so. It's just a lot more versatile then the bug in this respect....
....Sure in a pure 1v1 scenario, the bug will win every time, because it can simply counter spec everything the other escorts have or it clearly outclasses them in terms of base values, so DDIS is definitely right here.
I agree that the Hunter can outlast most bugs, especially since you can switch between 2x A2D (with 2 Tac stations for CritH boost) and hybrid A2B/A2D (for CD reduction and additional Boff station flexibility) almost at will.
In practice, I like the A2D configuration for fighting 1v1 since it keeps the turn rate and resists up (when doff'd) while also allowing me to slot a 2nd Superior Romulan Operative to get the Crit boost. On the other hand, in 5v5 or 10v10 match play, I like hybrid A2B/A2D since I'm inevitably getting ganked or grabbed, and I use the Ensign Uni. station to slot PH as an escape hatch. Also my preferred layout for Ker'rat "Daylight Vaper" trolling.
But I disagree that the bug will win every 1v1 vs. the Hunter. I've spent weeks fighting every bug ship I can find - both in Ker'rat and the queues - and I can count on one hand the number who could best me 1v1. Shak can do it, as can Link - though in both cases I would still put up a strong fight first.
Everyone else is either dead in minutes or agreeing to a draw because their fingers hurt.
So...don't sell the Hunter short. It's the closest thing to a match for the JHAS so far, and in a competent pilot's hands, can best all but the most OP veteran bug ships.
yes the hunter is excellent, quite nearly the modern bug of the AtB era. it, the bug, breen raider, corvette, MVAM beta, these are fencing escorts, things like the patrol refit, vet ship, steamrunner, these are heavy escorts. its sort of a rock paper scissors thing. fencers have an advantage against heavy escorts, heavy escorts have a decent shot of tanking and defeating FAW spaming tac cruisers, and tac cruisers will chew up and spit out more delicate fencing escorts. for the most part, in theory. the bug and hunter are pretty much both heavy and fencer at once though, its what makes them so strong. the patrol refit may be a slower heavy escort, but its also the most durable tactical ship in that game, that includes tac cruisers.
But I disagree that the bug will win every 1v1 vs. the Hunter. I've spent weeks fighting every bug ship I can find - both in Ker'rat and the queues - and I can count on one hand the number who could best me 1v1. Shak can do it, as can Link - though in both cases I would still put up a strong fight first.
Everyone else is either dead in minutes or agreeing to a draw because their fingers hurt.
So...don't sell the Hunter short. It's the closest thing to a match for the JHAS so far, and in a competent pilot's hands, can best all but the most OP veteran bug ships.
RCK
The title of this threat doesn't make much sense and you said why that is. It always comes down to the pilot. Nearly everyone has a bugship these days....and a lot of them suck. A bug doesn't make a person more skilled. A good player in ANY other escort always wins against a random guy with a bug. But put 2 player of the exact same skill (given something like that exists) against each other the bug wins over the hunter. Out of all ships able to equip a warp core instead of a singularity core the hunter and the new FPatrol come close enough to bugships to be competitive against them if you don't have a bug or the money to get one and thats a good developement. There are a lot of ships which can be considered to be nearly on par at the moment if it get's down to dogfighting.
Hunter, Bug, Fleet Patrol and Fleet Dhelan. Just one Romulan ship here because most of them are not made for dogfights, but the Dhelan defenitely has to be named here.
So these days the variety of ships is much bigger than in the past, just take what works best for you and kill bad guys.
Btw. this developement reached sci ships as well, since the Pallisade can match a wells anytime.
The only ship that can still be called "best" is the Recluse in terms of healing and tanking, no other ship can dish out that many team heals while being able to sustain heavy damage itself at the same time.
To sum it up: We all can just hope cryptic is going to release MUCH more of those ships that can be called "on par" with the above named, since that's at least a bit of balancing and gives far more variety even in premade situations => 3 Wells, 2 bugs still works out well, but is not op any more. 2 Hunter and 3 Pallisade can do the job as well.
One more thing to the turn rate discussion: Turn rate these days depends on your Aux power level more than on RCS consoles. I have just 2 eng slots on my Dhelan and i run 2 Neutronium with turn boost in there and still i get really crazy turnrates. Why? I use a doffed Aux2dampeners with Aux power at 110 (Leech helps). A ship with 4 RCS consoles and 60 Aux Power will match my turn maybe, but you don't need 4 eng slots to be able to reach high turnrates and you can slot more universal stuff also.
But I disagree that the bug will win every 1v1 vs. the Hunter. I've spent weeks fighting every bug ship I can find - both in Ker'rat and the queues - and I can count on one hand the number who could best me 1v1. Shak can do it, as can Link - though in both cases I would still put up a strong fight first.
Everyone else is either dead in minutes or agreeing to a draw because their fingers hurt.
So...don't sell the Hunter short. It's the closest thing to a match for the JHAS so far, and in a competent pilot's hands, can best all but the most OP veteran bug ships.
I'm certainly not selling the hunter short, but in a purely 1v1 scenario (where nobody is threatening to interfere) you will die against a ship that can hit you, but you can't hit it. The bug has the same amount of eng console space, which means, that it will be as maneuverable as a hunter. BUT because of it's higher base turnrate and impulse modifier it will simply always outmaneuver you.
I'm really only talking about equally good captains piloting each ship with basically the same equipment. So cannons against cannons. If the bug (or any other escort for that matter) somehow looses its advantage by not being able to get behind a targets weak spot, then it simply won't be able to utilize its huge advantage. So other ships/weapon setups might deny any escort their advantage.
The title of this threat doesn't make much sense and you said why that is. It always comes down to the pilot. Nearly everyone has a bugship these days....and a lot of them suck....
One more thing to the turn rate discussion: Turn rate these days depends on your Aux power level more than on RCS consoles. I have just 2 eng slots on my Dhelan and i run 2 Neutronium with turn boost in there and still i get really crazy turnrates. Why? I use a doffed Aux2dampeners with Aux power at 110 (Leech helps). A ship with 4 RCS consoles and 60 Aux Power will match my turn maybe, but you don't need 4 eng slots to be able to reach high turnrates and you can slot more universal stuff also.
Indeed, the free bug giveaway promotion from last season saw a flood of bugs hitting ker'rat and the queues. You could tell the newbies by how quickly they popped when faced with a competent pilot in a decently equipped escort. Now that they've all discovered that a ship won't make them "top gun" by itself, I see a lot of those same players back in their spacebar cruisers.
As for the high aux = turn rate statement, this is why I greatly prefer a 2x A2D configuration for pure 1v1 dogfighting. Now matter how many turn or rcs consoles I put on my Hunter, it's definitely slower and/or turns less quickly when running a hybrid A2B/A2D setup.
Bottom Line: For optimum dogfighting strength, there's no beating doff'd A2D on GCD.
Indeed, the free bug giveaway promotion from last season...
That's hardly free when you gotta drop zen or waste hours grinding EC for it.
Observation: Many "veteran" bug pilots seem to try to time their TT downtime with a full frontal assault in a dogfight. Facing them directly is a great way to reduce them to ashes in such a situation.
Anyway... you people talk about what is better in a 1vs1, what matters more skill or gear.. but most of you forgot the most important thing: RNG.
Lemme put it this way.. imagine you are a vaper (and i'm only using vapers because with them the problem is most obvious):
Ok Tac team is down.. gonna vape that guy now .. apa+tf+apb+bo3+ts1 .. torps fire... decloak.. dbb bank fires bo3... now either... dbb hits and crits (RNG is with me), torp spread hits a split second after the bo3 (timing and ping are with me).. boom.. my target explodes... OR ... dbb misses.. torp spread hits shields.. I do no damage, all offensive abilities wasted and well no kill.
Throwing dices is what decides this game and spiraling out of your enemies weapon range.
Yes you can load silly cruiser skills and fly in a big silly circle.
Not sure why you would want to fly an escort and pilot it like a carrier. Guess it makes it easier to watch tv at the same time.
The real question is, why would you fly a carrier and pilot it like a carrier? And ofcourse watching TV at the same time, well.. small addition. Some pet spamming as bonus
Anyway... you people talk about what is better in a 1vs1, what matters more skill or gear.. but most of you forgot the most important thing: RNG.
RNG is what happens when you open a box.
Good builds in STO (or any mmo) are never one off rolls.
1 - ( ( 1 - x ) ^ y )
I don't have the energy to explain simple probability anymore. Figure out what that formula means though and profit in any game you will ever play. (don't worry Cryptic has a hard time understanding that formula as well)
Ok perhaps I was a but curt there. lol
X = % chance for something to occur
Y = the number of runs / swings you take.
So plug in something like say... 2.5% chance for a proc... and take say 8 beam weapons. Assuming each cycle has a chance to proc. 1 - ( ( 1 - 2.5 ) ^ 8 ) So... each time you cycle your beams you have a 18.33% chance to land a proc.
When you under stand that you can start to tweak your builds to game probability...
In a game like STO where you know you can take X number of rolls between lockout periods on things like procs ect... you can figure out how to reduce RNG on your build in many cases to almost no chance of not getting the effect you are looking for.
So if you are say looking at keeping a perma disruptor proc up... you can factor in as many swings as you can take before the first one ends (15s).... so assuming you can cycle 8 weapons 3.75 times in 15s... you have a 53% chance to keep a perma disruptor proc on someone. (for this reason... a team for example only needs 2 people to have close to a 80% chance to keep perma disruptor procs out.)
Another example take Damage Control Duty officers.
Purple are 35% chance... Blue are 30% chance... however you can stack to 3.
With 3 purple your chance to proc per activation is 72%
With 3 Blue your chance to proc per activation is 66%
So you can see spending a lot more for purple isn't really needed.... also consider that in that case you get 2 rolls as only one of your EPTx skills needs to proc a doff... so you really get 6 rolls instead of 3.... so
With 3 purples and 2 eptx your chance for a PERFECT 100% uptime is 93%
With 3 blues and 2 eptx your chance for a perfect 100% uptime is 88%
Now if your a tweeker you do this .... you run 2 Purples for a 83% chance for a perfect roll and use the extra doff space to perhaps reduce your RNG on something else.
Bad RNG rolls only really effect people that don't understand how to build a ship.
So you're saying that 2x Purple DCEs are sufficient for the majority of builds? I ask because I've always slotted three in my non-A2B (dual A2D) escort builds, and then cycled EPtE/EPtS continuously in my keybind.
However, I'd much rather slot an extra, function-specific doff in there - for example, a CRF CD reduction doff, or even a BO shield pen doff (though I believe they got nerfed a while back). Combined with 2 purple AP doffs and a WCE (Keel'el or an EPtX version), that would make for a far more potent build, IMO.
I'd heard you could get away with 2x Purple DCEs, but I'd never seen it broken out mathematically like that. Thanks for posting the data, Antonio!
Bad RNG rolls only really effect people that don't understand how to build a ship.
I disagree with that. (VD disagree with something? No way!) But no, honestly - I do. The game is saturated with RNG. I mean, even with your examples - yep, you're dancing with the probabilities - but you're still looking at RNG. And - there's simply some RNG you can't manipulate the probability on.
I was going to type out a reply earlier to hank, heh, if the previous post he'd read was my going off the deep end on RNG in horizon's thread...meh.
Builds are just saturated...with both offensive and defensive RNG.
It's like the common statement...
"A definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results."
...well, in STO it would be more like...
"A definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting the same results."
...cause there's just that much RNG.
I can swoop in with Willard, if a few RNG things go my way and a few RNG things don't go the target's way...two to three weapon triggers and they pop. RNG doesn't go my way or RNG does go their way, it's going to be a case of needing more weapon triggers to get it done if it can be done.
One can attempt to maximize their probabilities and lower the risk with their own RNG, but they can't do anything about the potential defensive RNG that exists on the target.
We're slaves to RNG in STO...the game's saturated with it.
Both Virusdancer and Husanak are right. VD is right by saying that this game is saturated with RNG, and Husanak is right by suggesting that one can choose to play in a way where RNG won't matter.
Let's say, if someone puts all his eggs into a single itty bitty 2.5% proc chance basket, then you are fighting an uphill against a unforgiving dice. It's the antipode of smart game play.
But now, if you can figure out a way to trigger that 2.5% proc with a 90% probability in a 15 second time frame, then you have successfully left the realm of sheer luck and randomness; you have created a reliable foundation on which you now can base a proper strategy on. Then, you have successfully beaten RNG.
That is pretty much the "secret" of all successfull players and teams.
To clarify what I meant with ignorance in my previous post:
Depending on the skill level of the players involved in an 1v1 - novices duking it out or ATG-veterans fighting an epic duel - the order of importance of gear, ship choice, personal experience may vary. RNG as the deciding factor comes dead last. Glorifying RNG as the most important ingredient is just terribly ignorant. Claiming that "Throwing dices is what decides this game" is ignorant.
One should not be using "mystical RNG" as a scapegoat for one owns shortcomings, and that's what I just smelled there.
Regarding the vaper example:
One can build a relatively reliable vaper and one can build a vaper that is too much dependend on a lucky shot. One can have the experience and the skill to make a vaper work reliabely, and one could lack the skill to vape an helpless ant even with the best vaper builds out there...
"Throwing dices is what decides this game..." :rolleyes::eek:
TBH I find the amount of RNG to be fairly small compared to other games where every swing is subjected to seeding. At least here the basic damage is somewhat normalized against player behavior (buffs, tac team, etc) The other stuff are luck anyway, procs show up within a couple of cycles (usually) and crits were meant to be rare.
I just picture the Defensive RNG that comes into play as well as the Offensive RNG. Yes, the more skilled player is going to be able to work with their RNG to minimize the potential effect it has on what they're doing - but they've got no control over the Defensive RNG.
2pc Assimilated Borg with its 2% proc.
3pc Adapted Borg with its 1% proc.
KHG/AMACO Shield with its 20% proc.
Nanoprobe Field Generator with its 10% proc.
Nanoprobe Feedback with its 10% proc.
Romulan Science Consoles with their 2.5% [HuH] & [ShH] procs.
You get hit by a FAW Crit from somebody that doesn't even see you, but they have Sensor Targeting Assault up and ready for that FAW Crit...heck, even a plink-plink Turret Crit triggers it on a Crit.
You've also got the following...
Solanae Engines with their 25% proc to boost speed/turn when being hit.
Solanae Shields with their 1% proc to reflect 33% incoming energy damage.
3pc Solanae that gives energy weapons a 2.5% proc to heal for their damage.
8472 Shields with their 2.5% proc to drain Weapon Power from an attacker.
3pc Assimilated Borg with its...
And meh, I'm going to go smoke...cause the list of Defensive RNG goes on for a bit.
It's just a trip...bad trip...but picture the following:
Vaper comes in...unloads. Triggers a plethora of heals on the target while eating enough damage to get blown up because of Nukara/Solanae Shields and Nanoprobe Feedback - the target not even having to bother triggering FBP.
Yeah, I just hate the RNG saturation in this game.
TBH I find the amount of RNG to be fairly small compared to other games where every swing is subjected to seeding. At least here the basic damage is somewhat normalized against player behavior (buffs, tac team, etc) The other stuff are luck anyway, procs show up within a couple of cycles (usually) and crits were meant to be rare.
Even actual damage is subject to a range...the numbers we see on tooltips - all the spreadsheet warrior stuff - they're just what, medians/averages? Do we know that actual range of the damage +/- from those numbers?
On a slightly different note. There are so many 'weird' bits of undocumented RNG, mechanics that don't work or arn't described properly. There's chance on chance mechanics (ie, change on crit) and things that are so vague and have no log parsing information, that it's a matter of faith weather they work or are useful at all.
Yes, we can all laugh at the person suggesting that any vaper worth his salt won't use a tractor beam to increase his hit chance to 120%* (* by % the game actually means something completely different.) - But the reality is that there are so many hidden, unintuitive mechanics that it's a wonder anyone new has managed to master this game at all without 1on1 tuition.
There are obviously 2 completely different main types of people playing this(any pvp) game and there are always 2 mechanics present
-people that go for timing(precision-moving-attack)
-people that go for chance(spam-standing-defense)
Both paths can be considered same skills of one trying to control, pre-calculate the battlefield(enemy), to make/break the condition. Player vs computer, or in this game PvE.
Most such PvPers in fact play PvE without even knowing it.
From there they switch places :
-people that try to loosen/extend the timing needed and keep the precision while in non-controled, but also non-changing enviroment
-people that try to beat the chance and up their control while trying to plug their holes that come up when faced with unpredictable enemy. Also, one path can be also considered as single heavy attack, and another as steady AoE condition.
Where both paths combine and switch main paths when faced with one another.
So, those 2 main paths go with obvious choices when selecting the gear, ships and team tactics.
And that also explains why are the most valued items on exchange are those that boost both paths- reducing the factor of chance to be defeated(not being able to defeat)-plugging those holes.
Those items, doffs, boffs whatever plug the holes that both paths try to exploit.
After we exclude all gear, team setup probability all what is left are
2 opponents, one with hope that their timing/precision will break the control, and the other that hope that their control won't be broken by precise timing, so:
-one heavy shot
vs
-one hard wall
That stalemate in such, above described setup is either resolved by pre-chosen quality/choice of gear, by quality/choice of ships, and/or, like it or not, by first move, by time taken, by chance.
That is why there is chance mechanic in such games.
Luckily, there are also other paths that don't let game mechanics make those two choices from the start for them.
Such matches with such enemies are way more fun and one could consider them chaotic, but player unpredictability is the only human, only multidimensional factor that resolves game mechanics stalemate, and why PvP can be fun.
Best and most memorable moments are most random ones, not computer generated random ones(that are not random at all).
In such match there is a factor of random occurrence where real-player real-time adapting comes to shine.
So, player vs game mechanics or player vs player is the answer to the topic JHAS vs Hunter.
Yes thing is though lets look at the real math behind those % you are listing
2pc Assimilated Borg with its 2% proc.
- Yes 2% whenever you are hit. So assuming I am shooting at you and hitting you with 8 energy weapons and I fire say 3 Cycles at you... its close to 40% now that it will proc at some point in my 3 cycles... if 2 people are shooting at you... it goes up to 63%. (I mean really when was the last time you said darn I havn't seen a borg heal proc in a long time.)
3pc Adapted Borg with its 1% proc.
- Ok 1% the numbers do get smaller... however again with 2 people shooting at you for 3 cycles... it is mathmaticly still almost a 40% chance to proc.
KHG/AMACO Shield with its 20% proc.
This one I love... because 20% is HUGE... one person shooting at you for ONE cycle... 83% chance to proc.
Nanoprobe Field Generator with its 10% proc.
10% again is a massive number in this game. In fact it means every ONE cycle from one player is a 57% chance to gain one stack. Considering how these stack up... here is my early math having not tested it. (I am using some more prob math I am not going to even try to detail)... bottom line its around a 40% chance that while under fire from ONE target after 12s to have a full stack... meaning with just one person shooting at you... 90% or so of the time you will have a perma full stack. More then one target that chance gets so close to 100 that it would be like winning the lotto to not have a full stack.
I won't go through your entire list VD... I think I made my point. Offensive and Defensive RNG in this game is a joke... because frankly we have so many rolls. In most cases people are keeping 7-8 weapons on you... which means those Lowish RNG proc numbers get very very high.
Think of it like this.
If you give me one roll of a dice to hit a 6... hay 1/6 chance for me to do that in one roll. (16.6% chance)
Now tell me I have 10s and I can roll once a second and as long as I hit a 6 once I win... well now I have a 85% chance to win.
That is exactly how STO RNG works... and exactly why it isn't really RNG at all. If you take it once step further (in a team for sure) there is no chance involved in any of it.
do you guys ever go back over the things you type and think, "man i sound like a douchebag"?
Serioulsy , right or wrong. you dont have to be a douche about it.
some seriously TRIBBLE poor attitudes 'n interactions between folks in this game that i havent often seen to such an extent in other mmo's.
do you guys ever go back over the things you type and think, "man i sound like a douchebag"?
Serioulsy , right or wrong. you dont have to be a douche about it.
some seriously TRIBBLE poor attitudes 'n interactions between folks in this game that i havent often seen to such an extent in other mmo's.
I thought we where fairly civil in this thread for the most part. After 4 years most of the people that post here often know each other here and in game. Its like friends arguing, you allow yourself to sound more heated then you would with a stranger. Mostly none of us are strangers anymore and the people we go back and forth with here are the same people we pvp with and against in game, or blow NPCs up with on tribble testing junk ect.
I thought we where fairly civil in this thread for the most part. After 4 years most of the people that post here often know each other here and in game. Its like friends arguing, you allow yourself to sound more heated then you would with a stranger. Mostly none of us are strangers anymore and the people we go back and forth with here are the same people we pvp with and against in game, or blow NPCs up with on tribble testing junk ect.
I have both and while I like the Hirogen escort, it is no JHAS. My Hirogen escort is a little tankier and more versatile allowing me to heal more and survive independently, but my JHAS hits harder, moves faster and turns better so better in dogfights and better damage dealer on teams. On premades I rather have tacs in JHAS over Hirgen escort, but I like the Hirogen a lot when pugging, maybe even slightly more then my JHAS.
I'll post on topic for the first time I think... lol
Neither.
Elachi is better. (I love my bug and the hunter... but I prefer the Elachi)
Commander Tac
Lt Cmd SCi
Ensign Engi
Uni Lt.
Uni Lt.
It makes for a bunch of cool options. You can go engi heavy as the flavor is these days still by running 3 Engi Boffs. (you still have 5 boffs for bonus triats)
Lt. Cmd sci over Lt. Cmd Engi... myself I say its a good trade even if you want to beam boat it up.
That's one of my current elachi scorts...
- 13462 Shield cap with traits. 44,044 hull
- 21.3 crth / 103.2 crtd (ya its a tricked out rom hehe)
- 25.2 defense standing still 95.2 moving... considered counter command 2 piece might still do that to be over 100 all the time. (I love the advanced fleet though only engine with speedx3 I think)
- 34.41 flight speed / 42.5 turn... 84.41 / 47.4 (wiht EPTE 1)
Its pretty darn hard to beat... and to top it off it DOESNT turn on its back side like the hunter does like the raptor before it. It turns in the middle of the model like the bug does.
I won't go through your entire list VD... I think I made my point. Offensive and Defensive RNG in this game is a joke... because frankly we have so many rolls. In most cases people are keeping 7-8 weapons on you... which means those Lowish RNG proc numbers get very very high.
That is exactly how STO RNG works... and exactly why it isn't really RNG at all. If you take it once step further (in a team for sure) there is no chance involved in any of it.
Cryptic likes their RNG, I think they think it makes the game feel dynamic.
I think they think it allows even new players to feel like they did something awesome when they get "lucky".
To an extent RNG can do those things, it can prevent game strategies from becoming completely stale, it can also allow a new player to sometimes get lucky and "win" or kill a veteran player.
Cryptic is just bad and negligent at balancing it all.
They also don't actually balance for teams or team stacking, that's why this game eventually got a solo/duo PvP queue, it's why there are 3 minute STF runs.
They also don't actually balance for teams or team stacking, that's why this game eventually got a solo/duo PvP queue, it's why there are 3 minute STF runs.
Pretty much bang on. Team work is op as everyone likes to say... what is even more op then team work though. Is team work + team building.
Oh and 3min runs that is Nov last year... Pretty sure 2min< infected runs should be standard now with a half way decent pve team. Heck thanks to sheering I think my torp boat might be pulling more PvE dps then a RazEmMaFawMataZer.
Oh and 3min runs that is Nov last year... Pretty sure 2min< infected runs should be standard now with a half way decent pve team. Heck thanks to sheering I think my torp boat might be pulling more PvE dps then a RazEmMaFawMataZer.
Figures, since I don't think I've actually been in an STF since Sept last year. :P
I haven't actually played the game, like an actual match, since November, December? Can't remember, which rhymes with both!
Comments
I agree that the Hunter can outlast most bugs, especially since you can switch between 2x A2D (with 2 Tac stations for CritH boost) and hybrid A2B/A2D (for CD reduction and additional Boff station flexibility) almost at will.
In practice, I like the A2D configuration for fighting 1v1 since it keeps the turn rate and resists up (when doff'd) while also allowing me to slot a 2nd Superior Romulan Operative to get the Crit boost. On the other hand, in 5v5 or 10v10 match play, I like hybrid A2B/A2D since I'm inevitably getting ganked or grabbed, and I use the Ensign Uni. station to slot PH as an escape hatch. Also my preferred layout for Ker'rat "Daylight Vaper" trolling.
But I disagree that the bug will win every 1v1 vs. the Hunter. I've spent weeks fighting every bug ship I can find - both in Ker'rat and the queues - and I can count on one hand the number who could best me 1v1. Shak can do it, as can Link - though in both cases I would still put up a strong fight first.
Everyone else is either dead in minutes or agreeing to a draw because their fingers hurt.
So...don't sell the Hunter short. It's the closest thing to a match for the JHAS so far, and in a competent pilot's hands, can best all but the most OP veteran bug ships.
RCK
The title of this threat doesn't make much sense and you said why that is. It always comes down to the pilot. Nearly everyone has a bugship these days....and a lot of them suck. A bug doesn't make a person more skilled. A good player in ANY other escort always wins against a random guy with a bug. But put 2 player of the exact same skill (given something like that exists) against each other the bug wins over the hunter. Out of all ships able to equip a warp core instead of a singularity core the hunter and the new FPatrol come close enough to bugships to be competitive against them if you don't have a bug or the money to get one and thats a good developement. There are a lot of ships which can be considered to be nearly on par at the moment if it get's down to dogfighting.
Hunter, Bug, Fleet Patrol and Fleet Dhelan. Just one Romulan ship here because most of them are not made for dogfights, but the Dhelan defenitely has to be named here.
So these days the variety of ships is much bigger than in the past, just take what works best for you and kill bad guys.
Btw. this developement reached sci ships as well, since the Pallisade can match a wells anytime.
The only ship that can still be called "best" is the Recluse in terms of healing and tanking, no other ship can dish out that many team heals while being able to sustain heavy damage itself at the same time.
To sum it up: We all can just hope cryptic is going to release MUCH more of those ships that can be called "on par" with the above named, since that's at least a bit of balancing and gives far more variety even in premade situations => 3 Wells, 2 bugs still works out well, but is not op any more. 2 Hunter and 3 Pallisade can do the job as well.
One more thing to the turn rate discussion: Turn rate these days depends on your Aux power level more than on RCS consoles. I have just 2 eng slots on my Dhelan and i run 2 Neutronium with turn boost in there and still i get really crazy turnrates. Why? I use a doffed Aux2dampeners with Aux power at 110 (Leech helps). A ship with 4 RCS consoles and 60 Aux Power will match my turn maybe, but you don't need 4 eng slots to be able to reach high turnrates and you can slot more universal stuff also.
I'm certainly not selling the hunter short, but in a purely 1v1 scenario (where nobody is threatening to interfere) you will die against a ship that can hit you, but you can't hit it. The bug has the same amount of eng console space, which means, that it will be as maneuverable as a hunter. BUT because of it's higher base turnrate and impulse modifier it will simply always outmaneuver you.
I'm really only talking about equally good captains piloting each ship with basically the same equipment. So cannons against cannons. If the bug (or any other escort for that matter) somehow looses its advantage by not being able to get behind a targets weak spot, then it simply won't be able to utilize its huge advantage. So other ships/weapon setups might deny any escort their advantage.
Indeed, the free bug giveaway promotion from last season saw a flood of bugs hitting ker'rat and the queues. You could tell the newbies by how quickly they popped when faced with a competent pilot in a decently equipped escort. Now that they've all discovered that a ship won't make them "top gun" by itself, I see a lot of those same players back in their spacebar cruisers.
As for the high aux = turn rate statement, this is why I greatly prefer a 2x A2D configuration for pure 1v1 dogfighting. Now matter how many turn or rcs consoles I put on my Hunter, it's definitely slower and/or turns less quickly when running a hybrid A2B/A2D setup.
Bottom Line: For optimum dogfighting strength, there's no beating doff'd A2D on GCD.
RCK
That's hardly free when you gotta drop zen or waste hours grinding EC for it.
Observation: Many "veteran" bug pilots seem to try to time their TT downtime with a full frontal assault in a dogfight. Facing them directly is a great way to reduce them to ashes in such a situation.
Anyway... you people talk about what is better in a 1vs1, what matters more skill or gear.. but most of you forgot the most important thing: RNG.
Lemme put it this way.. imagine you are a vaper (and i'm only using vapers because with them the problem is most obvious):
Ok Tac team is down.. gonna vape that guy now .. apa+tf+apb+bo3+ts1 .. torps fire... decloak.. dbb bank fires bo3... now either... dbb hits and crits (RNG is with me), torp spread hits a split second after the bo3 (timing and ping are with me).. boom.. my target explodes... OR ... dbb misses.. torp spread hits shields.. I do no damage, all offensive abilities wasted and well no kill.
Throwing dices is what decides this game and spiraling out of your enemies weapon range.
Haven't read a more ignorant post for a couple of days now.
The real question is, why would you fly a carrier and pilot it like a carrier? And ofcourse watching TV at the same time, well.. small addition. Some pet spamming as bonus
RNG is what happens when you open a box.
Good builds in STO (or any mmo) are never one off rolls.
1 - ( ( 1 - x ) ^ y )
I don't have the energy to explain simple probability anymore. Figure out what that formula means though and profit in any game you will ever play. (don't worry Cryptic has a hard time understanding that formula as well)
Ok perhaps I was a but curt there. lol
X = % chance for something to occur
Y = the number of runs / swings you take.
So plug in something like say... 2.5% chance for a proc... and take say 8 beam weapons. Assuming each cycle has a chance to proc. 1 - ( ( 1 - 2.5 ) ^ 8 ) So... each time you cycle your beams you have a 18.33% chance to land a proc.
When you under stand that you can start to tweak your builds to game probability...
In a game like STO where you know you can take X number of rolls between lockout periods on things like procs ect... you can figure out how to reduce RNG on your build in many cases to almost no chance of not getting the effect you are looking for.
So if you are say looking at keeping a perma disruptor proc up... you can factor in as many swings as you can take before the first one ends (15s).... so assuming you can cycle 8 weapons 3.75 times in 15s... you have a 53% chance to keep a perma disruptor proc on someone. (for this reason... a team for example only needs 2 people to have close to a 80% chance to keep perma disruptor procs out.)
Another example take Damage Control Duty officers.
Purple are 35% chance... Blue are 30% chance... however you can stack to 3.
With 3 purple your chance to proc per activation is 72%
With 3 Blue your chance to proc per activation is 66%
So you can see spending a lot more for purple isn't really needed.... also consider that in that case you get 2 rolls as only one of your EPTx skills needs to proc a doff... so you really get 6 rolls instead of 3.... so
With 3 purples and 2 eptx your chance for a PERFECT 100% uptime is 93%
With 3 blues and 2 eptx your chance for a perfect 100% uptime is 88%
Now if your a tweeker you do this .... you run 2 Purples for a 83% chance for a perfect roll and use the extra doff space to perhaps reduce your RNG on something else.
Bad RNG rolls only really effect people that don't understand how to build a ship.
However, I'd much rather slot an extra, function-specific doff in there - for example, a CRF CD reduction doff, or even a BO shield pen doff (though I believe they got nerfed a while back). Combined with 2 purple AP doffs and a WCE (Keel'el or an EPtX version), that would make for a far more potent build, IMO.
I'd heard you could get away with 2x Purple DCEs, but I'd never seen it broken out mathematically like that. Thanks for posting the data, Antonio!
RCK
I disagree with that. (VD disagree with something? No way!) But no, honestly - I do. The game is saturated with RNG. I mean, even with your examples - yep, you're dancing with the probabilities - but you're still looking at RNG. And - there's simply some RNG you can't manipulate the probability on.
I was going to type out a reply earlier to hank, heh, if the previous post he'd read was my going off the deep end on RNG in horizon's thread...meh.
Builds are just saturated...with both offensive and defensive RNG.
It's like the common statement...
"A definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results."
...well, in STO it would be more like...
"A definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting the same results."
...cause there's just that much RNG.
I can swoop in with Willard, if a few RNG things go my way and a few RNG things don't go the target's way...two to three weapon triggers and they pop. RNG doesn't go my way or RNG does go their way, it's going to be a case of needing more weapon triggers to get it done if it can be done.
One can attempt to maximize their probabilities and lower the risk with their own RNG, but they can't do anything about the potential defensive RNG that exists on the target.
We're slaves to RNG in STO...the game's saturated with it.
Let's say, if someone puts all his eggs into a single itty bitty 2.5% proc chance basket, then you are fighting an uphill against a unforgiving dice. It's the antipode of smart game play.
But now, if you can figure out a way to trigger that 2.5% proc with a 90% probability in a 15 second time frame, then you have successfully left the realm of sheer luck and randomness; you have created a reliable foundation on which you now can base a proper strategy on. Then, you have successfully beaten RNG.
That is pretty much the "secret" of all successfull players and teams.
To clarify what I meant with ignorance in my previous post:
Depending on the skill level of the players involved in an 1v1 - novices duking it out or ATG-veterans fighting an epic duel - the order of importance of gear, ship choice, personal experience may vary. RNG as the deciding factor comes dead last. Glorifying RNG as the most important ingredient is just terribly ignorant. Claiming that "Throwing dices is what decides this game" is ignorant.
One should not be using "mystical RNG" as a scapegoat for one owns shortcomings, and that's what I just smelled there.
Regarding the vaper example:
One can build a relatively reliable vaper and one can build a vaper that is too much dependend on a lucky shot. One can have the experience and the skill to make a vaper work reliabely, and one could lack the skill to vape an helpless ant even with the best vaper builds out there...
"Throwing dices is what decides this game..." :rolleyes::eek:
2pc Assimilated Borg with its 2% proc.
3pc Adapted Borg with its 1% proc.
KHG/AMACO Shield with its 20% proc.
Nanoprobe Field Generator with its 10% proc.
Nanoprobe Feedback with its 10% proc.
Romulan Science Consoles with their 2.5% [HuH] & [ShH] procs.
You get hit by a FAW Crit from somebody that doesn't even see you, but they have Sensor Targeting Assault up and ready for that FAW Crit...heck, even a plink-plink Turret Crit triggers it on a Crit.
You've also got the following...
Solanae Engines with their 25% proc to boost speed/turn when being hit.
Solanae Shields with their 1% proc to reflect 33% incoming energy damage.
3pc Solanae that gives energy weapons a 2.5% proc to heal for their damage.
8472 Shields with their 2.5% proc to drain Weapon Power from an attacker.
3pc Assimilated Borg with its...
And meh, I'm going to go smoke...cause the list of Defensive RNG goes on for a bit.
It's just a trip...bad trip...but picture the following:
Vaper comes in...unloads. Triggers a plethora of heals on the target while eating enough damage to get blown up because of Nukara/Solanae Shields and Nanoprobe Feedback - the target not even having to bother triggering FBP.
Yeah, I just hate the RNG saturation in this game.
Even actual damage is subject to a range...the numbers we see on tooltips - all the spreadsheet warrior stuff - they're just what, medians/averages? Do we know that actual range of the damage +/- from those numbers?
Yes, we can all laugh at the person suggesting that any vaper worth his salt won't use a tractor beam to increase his hit chance to 120%* (* by % the game actually means something completely different.) - But the reality is that there are so many hidden, unintuitive mechanics that it's a wonder anyone new has managed to master this game at all without 1on1 tuition.
-people that go for timing(precision-moving-attack)
-people that go for chance(spam-standing-defense)
Both paths can be considered same skills of one trying to control, pre-calculate the battlefield(enemy), to make/break the condition. Player vs computer, or in this game PvE.
Most such PvPers in fact play PvE without even knowing it.
From there they switch places :
-people that try to loosen/extend the timing needed and keep the precision while in non-controled, but also non-changing enviroment
-people that try to beat the chance and up their control while trying to plug their holes that come up when faced with unpredictable enemy. Also, one path can be also considered as single heavy attack, and another as steady AoE condition.
Where both paths combine and switch main paths when faced with one another.
So, those 2 main paths go with obvious choices when selecting the gear, ships and team tactics.
And that also explains why are the most valued items on exchange are those that boost both paths- reducing the factor of chance to be defeated(not being able to defeat)-plugging those holes.
Those items, doffs, boffs whatever plug the holes that both paths try to exploit.
After we exclude all gear, team setup probability all what is left are
2 opponents, one with hope that their timing/precision will break the control, and the other that hope that their control won't be broken by precise timing, so:
-one heavy shot
vs
-one hard wall
That stalemate in such, above described setup is either resolved by pre-chosen quality/choice of gear, by quality/choice of ships, and/or, like it or not, by first move, by time taken, by chance.
That is why there is chance mechanic in such games.
Luckily, there are also other paths that don't let game mechanics make those two choices from the start for them.
Such matches with such enemies are way more fun and one could consider them chaotic, but player unpredictability is the only human, only multidimensional factor that resolves game mechanics stalemate, and why PvP can be fun.
Best and most memorable moments are most random ones, not computer generated random ones(that are not random at all).
In such match there is a factor of random occurrence where real-player real-time adapting comes to shine.
So, player vs game mechanics or player vs player is the answer to the topic JHAS vs Hunter.
IMO.
Super SpecialStar Trek Online Review
SpecialTemporal PUG 100K DPS Build
We are Travelers
Yes thing is though lets look at the real math behind those % you are listing
2pc Assimilated Borg with its 2% proc.
- Yes 2% whenever you are hit. So assuming I am shooting at you and hitting you with 8 energy weapons and I fire say 3 Cycles at you... its close to 40% now that it will proc at some point in my 3 cycles... if 2 people are shooting at you... it goes up to 63%. (I mean really when was the last time you said darn I havn't seen a borg heal proc in a long time.)
3pc Adapted Borg with its 1% proc.
- Ok 1% the numbers do get smaller... however again with 2 people shooting at you for 3 cycles... it is mathmaticly still almost a 40% chance to proc.
KHG/AMACO Shield with its 20% proc.
This one I love... because 20% is HUGE... one person shooting at you for ONE cycle... 83% chance to proc.
Nanoprobe Field Generator with its 10% proc.
10% again is a massive number in this game. In fact it means every ONE cycle from one player is a 57% chance to gain one stack. Considering how these stack up... here is my early math having not tested it. (I am using some more prob math I am not going to even try to detail)... bottom line its around a 40% chance that while under fire from ONE target after 12s to have a full stack... meaning with just one person shooting at you... 90% or so of the time you will have a perma full stack. More then one target that chance gets so close to 100 that it would be like winning the lotto to not have a full stack.
I won't go through your entire list VD... I think I made my point. Offensive and Defensive RNG in this game is a joke... because frankly we have so many rolls. In most cases people are keeping 7-8 weapons on you... which means those Lowish RNG proc numbers get very very high.
Think of it like this.
If you give me one roll of a dice to hit a 6... hay 1/6 chance for me to do that in one roll. (16.6% chance)
Now tell me I have 10s and I can roll once a second and as long as I hit a 6 once I win... well now I have a 85% chance to win.
That is exactly how STO RNG works... and exactly why it isn't really RNG at all. If you take it once step further (in a team for sure) there is no chance involved in any of it.
The computer's dice
do you guys ever go back over the things you type and think, "man i sound like a douchebag"?
Serioulsy , right or wrong. you dont have to be a douche about it.
some seriously TRIBBLE poor attitudes 'n interactions between folks in this game that i havent often seen to such an extent in other mmo's.
I thought we where fairly civil in this thread for the most part. After 4 years most of the people that post here often know each other here and in game. Its like friends arguing, you allow yourself to sound more heated then you would with a stranger. Mostly none of us are strangers anymore and the people we go back and forth with here are the same people we pvp with and against in game, or blow NPCs up with on tribble testing junk ect.
Totally agree
Oh, and an on-topic note/edit: I love my hunter
Neither.
Elachi is better. (I love my bug and the hunter... but I prefer the Elachi)
Commander Tac
Lt Cmd SCi
Ensign Engi
Uni Lt.
Uni Lt.
It makes for a bunch of cool options. You can go engi heavy as the flavor is these days still by running 3 Engi Boffs. (you still have 5 boffs for bonus triats)
Lt. Cmd sci over Lt. Cmd Engi... myself I say its a good trade even if you want to beam boat it up.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=elaches_0 (noticed I put a sing core on it... you get the idea spire amp core)
That's one of my current elachi scorts...
- 13462 Shield cap with traits. 44,044 hull
- 21.3 crth / 103.2 crtd (ya its a tricked out rom hehe)
- 25.2 defense standing still 95.2 moving... considered counter command 2 piece might still do that to be over 100 all the time. (I love the advanced fleet though only engine with speedx3 I think)
- 34.41 flight speed / 42.5 turn... 84.41 / 47.4 (wiht EPTE 1)
Its pretty darn hard to beat... and to top it off it DOESNT turn on its back side like the hunter does like the raptor before it. It turns in the middle of the model like the bug does.
Cryptic likes their RNG, I think they think it makes the game feel dynamic.
I think they think it allows even new players to feel like they did something awesome when they get "lucky".
To an extent RNG can do those things, it can prevent game strategies from becoming completely stale, it can also allow a new player to sometimes get lucky and "win" or kill a veteran player.
Cryptic is just bad and negligent at balancing it all.
They also don't actually balance for teams or team stacking, that's why this game eventually got a solo/duo PvP queue, it's why there are 3 minute STF runs.
Pretty much bang on. Team work is op as everyone likes to say... what is even more op then team work though. Is team work + team building.
Oh and 3min runs that is Nov last year... Pretty sure 2min< infected runs should be standard now with a half way decent pve team. Heck thanks to sheering I think my torp boat might be pulling more PvE dps then a RazEmMaFawMataZer.
Figures, since I don't think I've actually been in an STF since Sept last year. :P
I haven't actually played the game, like an actual match, since November, December? Can't remember, which rhymes with both!