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Upgrades needed for existing Science ships
pweistheworst
Member Posts: 986 Arc User
In addition to the secondary deflectors that are supposedly coming to science ships, I hope the devs will consider updating the unique consoles that came with some of the early C-store science ships.
Thanks to power creep over the last couple of years, consoles like the Tachyon Detection Grid and the Ablative Generator are almost always tossed into the bank/inventory rather than used on ships. However, these unique science ship consoles would suddenly become MUCH more useful if one of two things happen:
1) Make these console abilities last twice as long as they currently do.
or
2) Cut the cooldown time in half so these consoles can be used more frequently in PVE and PVP combat situations.
Thanks to power creep over the last couple of years, consoles like the Tachyon Detection Grid and the Ablative Generator are almost always tossed into the bank/inventory rather than used on ships. However, these unique science ship consoles would suddenly become MUCH more useful if one of two things happen:
1) Make these console abilities last twice as long as they currently do.
or
2) Cut the cooldown time in half so these consoles can be used more frequently in PVE and PVP combat situations.
In the immortal words of Captain Sisko: "It may not be what you believe, but that doesn't make it wrong."
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
Post edited by pweistheworst on
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They're probably going to release a Fleet Nebula with secondary deflector next, let's see how that goes before adding more buffs.
Regardless, if you chose a science ship, you can't expect to win the DPS race...
Uh ... I never said anything about winning "the DPS race" because that's not what I'm looking for.
I am saying that some of the old unique consoles from early c-store science ships are terrible/useless and need to be improved.
I'm not asking to turn those consoles into an "I win button" or instantly one-shot kill your opponent. I just want the devs to buff the existing functionality of these consoles. The "idea" behind these consoles are still sound (temporary cloak buster and temporary defense/armor boost) but thanks to power creep they are too weak now.
Even if the devs double the time that these console abilities work AND cut the cooldown in half these consoles wouldn't directly impact DPS ... but they would help science ships stay alive longer.
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
I think adding more passive bonus console would make these ships sell.
Maybe a revamped Nebula gets a console that grants say: +20 sensors, +2 stealth sight and something else, maybe more aux power or +5 to max aux power cap.
And the Intrepid... A passive bio-neural gel pack console which grants: +5 to all science skills - or perhaps - a passive which cuts a few seconds off of building stacks with sensor analysis.
What science really needs to be competitive is a handful of items that could be as good as Aux2Batt. Aux weapons and more cd reduction would help a lot.
Tons of possibilities but I doubt we'll see anything but the secondary deflector in the next year. The reputation system was a huge chance to add science passives, but they just made damage and tanking passives (except for T5 Rom). Would have been nice to see a passive which added to grav gens or something... shows where the devs are at.
In the end though, the ships are simply outclassed in general.
Which is a shame, as I prefer science vessels far more than any other type of ship. Too bad disruptions aren't as effective as they could be thanks to all the power creep, as everything Science vessel throws in PvP can easily be negated. I don't care about DPS race in PvE as long as I can do stuff in reasonable time and effort.
Wasn't saying that Science Vessels are outclassed by other types of ships...
Was saying that the Nebula and Intrepid are outclassed by other Science Vessels...
Whoops, sorry for misunderstanding
Well, nebula will get buff pretty soon, won't it?
On the first, no worries - I should have been more clear. On the second, no idea...folks have been asking for buffs to many of the older C-Store ships. It comes up from time to time, even mentioned by the devs that they're looking at it...and the years continue to go by.
I've always been in favor of the not at all popular idea of pulling Subsystem Targeting from Sci Vessels and Carriers. With the combination of the improved Sensor Analysis and the incoming Secondary Deflectors, I'm that much more in favor of pulling what is a Tactical ability from the Sci Vessels.
For Carriers, ever since the Cruiser Command thing for the Cruiser families - I've wondered about Carrier Auras working along the lines of what the FDO DOFFs offer...
Reduce Recharge/CD
Increase Defense (for not only the Carrier, but the pets as well)
Increase Accuracy
Increase Damage
Course, it would mean changing the DOFFs...
Standard (previously CD) would offer a small increase to the hull/shields of pets.
Recall (previously Defense) would increase their redock and repair speed.
Intercept (previously Accuracy) would increase their movement speed/resistance to movement debuffs.
Escort (previously Damage) would provide a bonus to Perception.
Course, a change to the Tac BOFF ability of Subsystem Targeting is always included...changing it so that there are only 3 abilities, rather than 12 - where each provides all four choices. Subsystem Targeting I would provide ST:Weapons, ST:Shields, ST:Engines, ST:Auxiliary...where using one would put the other three on CD for the normal duration of the Subsystem Targeting.
I agree and don't see why pulling subsystem targeting from science ships would be unpopular, I don't see it as any more than a free tactical ability bandaid that neither addresses the underlying issues of sci ships nor provides anything more than a (extremely) minor perk.
EPS on full increasing the Wrap Core increases the Power Flow. I have to give up some features to speed. But in all more power to the weapons and shield is a plus. I was in the Undine last night taking on one of those targets on my own. Undine had tried to take my ship down but couldn't do it.
I see that the Undine can jump around my ship, but I out smarted that drone. 15 plus to Aux plus what you can get out of the consoles and your officers skills all comes into play.
Shields at 100%
EPS power 100%
Flow Control 100%
Power Flow 100%
Of course you have to keep focusing on all what's happening around you. Voth battles ouch, but power levels do drop fast you not careful. Extra button feature makes SCF stand out though.
Time will only tell!
They'd actually have to redesign the ablative armor entirely imo to make it useful on any science vessel, they'd have to make it so that there is no delay between when shields go down and when the protection begins unlike cloaking, there's a 2 second margin in there where enemies can totally destroy you instantly, and they'd have to do some graphic tweaking. I wouldn't mind if they did but I doubt they would.
I'd also like some consoles from vessels in the store to be actually devices so they don't take up slots in consoles slots, like the plasma manifold that are simply glorified batteries.
Subsystem targeting is largely worthless and Carriers that currently have subsystem targeting should get a "carrier command system" similar to the cruiser commands but that only applies to that carrier's pets.
That way carrier captains might be able to use a bit more strategy with their pets rather than just spamming the "launch fighters" button to keep as many pets on the field as possible.
Don't believe the lies in this forum. I am NOT an ARC user. I play STO on Steam or not at all.
Subsytem targeting is a debuff that drains power and can take a system offline. Uses flow cap and subspace decompiler, so that's much more in line with science than it is with tactical even if it's normally a tactical ability that happens to apply as a weapons buff.
It's not supposed to be a band-aid, its supposed to play into the strenghts and traits of science vessels. the problem is that it's not doing much, and they really need to buff it a bit more on science vessels.
Personally, I think they should have given T5 science vessels the MK III version of subsystem targeting and made it normally off limits to boffs (lower tier science ships could have lower MK BTxS). Another idea would be to have sensors increase the chance for the offline proc to occur which is a buff to use on science vessels, because even without captain skills, SVs have a bonus to sensors.
Consoles like you're saying do exist, like the Ionized Gas Sensor. Yes, I know the utility is pointless in today's STO, but it grants an ability and a skill bonus. +19 Starship Sensors in this case, which has uses outside of detection, i.e. buffing Sci Captain's "Sensor Scan."
But you are correct. These will never get stuffed on if it sacrifices either:
Damage output
Survivability
And a big hell no to more Aux Weapons. That's game balance breaking stuff there.
That's funny VD, because I remember when STO released, "Target Subsystem ___" was solely under Science BOFF skills or the weaker freebies found on Science Vessels & Carriers. I took a long break from STO then I come back and see Science BOFF abilities nerfed and Target Subsystem abilities now falling under TAC.
For starters, you could buff sensor analysis even further.
I might also consider adding another weapon slot to Science Vessels, or give them the ability to use dual cannons (that could be something that you decide on a ship-by-ship basis. The Deep Space Science Vessels and the Gorn Science Vessels may get dual cannons, the Long Range Science Vessel and the Recon Science Vessel get the extra weapon slot. Whatever seems to fit the looks of the ships best.)
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Regarding buffs to individual console powers - Ablative Armor fills pretty much the same role as that invulnerability shield bubble (Quantum Shields?) on the Vesta. I am not sure if it needs to be stronger than the Vesta's bubble (it's a set bonus, so a freebie, right), but it needs to be at least as strong.
For example, the Ablative Armor Console could grant temporary damage immunity, and buff torpedo damage based on auxillary power levels for its duration.
It should probably also get a set bonus with the Shockwave torpedo from the Bellerophone. Maybe a small buff to torpedo damage? Or how about torpedo cooldowns - after all, the Voyager managed to deliver over 200 shots out of a supply of roughly 50 torps, right?
From the OP's idea - I think lowering the cooldowns is the better choice for these abilities. It makes them more relevant, while still providing clear weak spots in the defensive rotation that you need to cover.
If that's the only way to buff a ship, then that's endemic to an imbalance in weapon types, and that's something that should be fixed. Science vessels should be buffed to be effective with any sort of weapons rather than just sticking on something new as a kludge and calling the problem fixed.
Also Dual cannons were supposed to be an escort thing, part of their role. Now it's OK to see them on the occasional other ship, but they shouldn't be everywhere.
If we want to look at weapon TYPES, I vote they expand aux weapons to be available in every weapon type in every damage flavor but make them only equipable to science vessels (and maybe one or two select other ships)
I don't think Aux weapons are a good idea. They make weapon power suddenly pointless and remove the trade-offs inherent between weapons and aux power.
It's like giving Escorts the abiltiy to heal themselves by dealing damage. Oh, wait, that happened, but it's just something that good game design should avoid in the first place.
The power system becomes meaningless with Aux weapons, and one of the things that bother me about the Vesta (the Science Vessel I use on my Science Main, because it's the best of them. At least the best of the non-ugly ones, maybe the Dyson Science Destroyer would be even better, but the Fed one is ugly as hell. The Romulan one is awesome, of course.)
The energy system is already under-utilized, making a whole class of ships ignore weapon power entirely is problematic. I am for the idea of making other power levels more important, because weapno power is the non-plus ultra for every ship (at least in PVE), but not by simply marginalizing a weapon power.
Maybe Science Vessels should get a crit bonus based on Aux power and improve innate weapon procs and target subsystem powers? Say, raise the likelihood of them occuring (for Anti-Protons, this would be a Crit chance improvement). Also represents their innate science powers. Still makes the Vesta too uber, maybe the Aux Phasers have the effect between weapon power and proc buff reversed...
I think the SV strength or weakness is more of a PvE thing. In PvP, I believe they are still around and useful. In PvE however, DPS usually prevails. And that was never an SV strength.
Well another thing I was thinking was that sensors could either increase accuracy (which overflows into crit) or have it increase the proc rate of things (weapons at least, but maybe other items, though that might require a more through investigation). Unless I am mistaken, Science vessels have an innate bonus to sensors and aux power also boosts sensors.
Indeed Science Vessels are powerful in PvP; it's PvE that's the real problem. It's twofold. The first problem affects any class that isn't and escort packing DHCs (and the reason cruisers weren't doing nearly as hot till A2B+tech FAW beamspam came along): most content is DPS centric, all the science toys don't do much to affect the flow of battle and everyone is relying on self heals and can tank everything anyways. The second problem is that offensive science powers were nerfed because of how powerful they were being on non-science craft primarily ships with an LtC sci station and/or attack pattern omega (which for some reason buffs exotic damage).
Hopefully these new secondary deflectors can help counter the latter point, but the first problem is a level design issue and has only improved slightly since Borg STFs stopped being the only end game content of note.