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Giving science a little..
hyefather
Member Posts: 1,286 Arc User
I've been trying to think of ways to improve science ships without making them Op. I have a suggestion. In the 3/3 weapons layout. why not make teir 5 ships have a 3/3 Front and aft as well as a 1/1 weapon slot on each side. My thinking in this to keep them from being op is that, the captain really couldn't put anything in there that would make them Op. They couldn't put cannons in there for a frontal assult ( they could use the 180% cannons but, then they would have to keep the front of their ship perfectly pointed at the enemy at all times to fire consistantly). What they could add, is 2 beam arrays or turrets, and to help with circleing enemys maybe a torp. There could be some intresting builds but I don't think this would add to the point of makeing the ship OP.
I know sci ships need something and Im just brainstorming ideas. Maybe not weapon improvements but ability improvements. Give sci captains 18000 more skill points. Give sci captains a extra proc to all weapons. (2.5% to increase auxillary by 5 for 10 seconds, stacks up to 5x) . I just know that I play 3 Tacs Fed,klingon and Reman with a Fed Engineer and they all have a better synergy feel to them than my 1 Fed sci. I want my sci to be equivalent to my other characters. Something needs to be done. Any Ideas?
I know sci ships need something and Im just brainstorming ideas. Maybe not weapon improvements but ability improvements. Give sci captains 18000 more skill points. Give sci captains a extra proc to all weapons. (2.5% to increase auxillary by 5 for 10 seconds, stacks up to 5x) . I just know that I play 3 Tacs Fed,klingon and Reman with a Fed Engineer and they all have a better synergy feel to them than my 1 Fed sci. I want my sci to be equivalent to my other characters. Something needs to be done. Any Ideas?
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There used to be a picture here, but they changed signatures and I can't be bothered to replace it.
Either NPCs are highly resistant to Science powers or players can easily remove debuffs with Science Team.
Make the game difficult to the point where science ships are desirable. Make enemies ridiculously overpowered to the point science debuffs, team heals, and what have you become necessary for team-oriented gameplay.
Reward science ship captains in a way we haven't seen before. People get loot, expertise, and get the mission accomplished faster for killing enemies quickly.
So reward science captains similarly for using their science ships as effectively as they can in the same way escorts are rewarded for killing enemies as effectively as they can.
Introduce another currency or some other kind of tally board which is focused around support and rewards 'creative thinking'.
Use a science reputation system if you want, that uses science marks (just for an example) in which valuable science equipment or dilithium is earned based not on how many enemies you kill or missions you accomplish, but by how many science-related abilities you effectively use in those missions, or how they are used.
I.E. the quality of how you decide to use your science ship, not the quantity in which enemies are killed while you're around.
Alternatively, I would also integrate a research or exploration system that focuses on non-combat usages of science ships. I'd make science ships the 'king of minigames', for instance. Not just the dilithium mining or particle trace minigames, but a large swath of various minigames in which the player uses their creative thinking skills to get through small minigames in their quest for 'greater research'.
The more puzzles and mazes you get through, and the faster you get through them -- using your brain, the greater your rewards. And not just particle traces, but brand new rewards that could be compared to today's DPS-centric style of gameplay. Equipment that makes solving puzzles easier or faster, or has more forgiveness for making mistakes in your research -- in addition to combat effectiveness.
And with science ships being... well... for science, to me it stands to reason that in this alternative gameplay style, they would be best at that job, in the same way escorts are best at killing enemies.
Instead of trying to force science ships to compete against escorts and cruisers, force escorts and cruisers to compete against science ships in their own arena -- namely research and exploration, for valuable rewards.
Second deflector and sensor analysis don't make up for having less weapon slots than every other class, because other ship classes have stuff like comm arrays and dual cannons.
Why don't you just put your SCI captain in a escort if you need more guns.
I like Iconions ideas better
Yep. And maybe it will be like the Rear Cannons on Escorts now: you'll have to buy new Fleet Ships to get the extra deflector. Which, really, would be good business on Cryptic's part.
The best thing that they could do for Sci Ships is to give them Aux Weapons like what the Vesta has. Aux Beams, 'cause the Cannons would still be a selling point for the Vesta. With still only the 3/3 Weapon Slots, they could do decent damage and still do well at their intended function of Debuffer.
EDIT:
So what you are suggesting, Iconians, is instead of being rewarded for HP Drain like Escorts, Scis should be rewarded for Subsystem Drain? That is a pretty good idea. I support it.
As for puzzles, they did that before. Breen Episodes, maybe? It was like old-school TOS full-away team poking on ruin's stone blocks stuff. That was fun.
What can I say... this game favors damage over anything else. I would give an arm and a leg for a game mechanics that favors Sci ships, like exploration, reconnaissance etc., but lets face it: new complex game mechanics is not going to happen.
Yes, this would actually be awesome too. But seeing that there is no even fleet versions of Vesta cannons... In any event, Aux weapons available for other ships is probably the only thing that could make me switch from a Vesta to a different sci ship.
I proposed some things in that vein and we got moar DPS
Why cant Sensor Analysis show me the other guy's power levels, his loadout, stuff like that? You know, let me play the game instead of watching the game play itself.
Could give science ships longer scanning range, that would be pretty handy.
Nerp we got moar dakka
When Cryptic stops trying to fit a square peg into a round hole like they currently are, they are going to come to the same conclusion I did.
The gameplay is the issue. Not the ships.
STO panders to damage and DPS. New ships we get pander to this playstyle. The solutions we see almost always involve additional tactical (or universal) boff slots or tactical consoles, or weapon slots.
It isn't the players fault for suggesting these things. It's all they know.
The only way to get to the root of the problem and create a sustainable solution is to offer alternative styles of gameplay instead of forcing cruisers and science vessels to compete in the DPS 'meta' that STO has been infected with for years.
Otherwise you're just trying to find more ways to make science vessels and cruisers more escort-like.
But there aren't any suggestions to make cruisers and escorts more science vessel like. Such an idea is preposterous.
But if you implement ideas similar to mine, you'll see the forums rage on how escorts can't solve minigames (for instance) as well as science vessels can.
And for greater sciencey rewards, the puzzles and mazes and minigames will simply get harder, and they can be implemented in the same missions that require good combat capabilities. Teams will WANT science vessels on their team to handle these minigames in order to progress more effectively.
To which we can just say, "Well, pick up a dyson science destroyer if you want your cake and eat it too", again just as an example.
I don't like band-aid solutions. Cryptic has been using band-aid solutions.
They have mentioned in the past that all science vessels will be getting secondary deflectors. The tail guns are unique to the Patrol Escort line, and have never been marketed as anything other than a gimmick for that line, and that line alone.
There used to be a picture here, but they changed signatures and I can't be bothered to replace it.
I like some of these ideas, but I also think cryptic should make these changes for tactical and engineering. Only do them in a tactical and engineering way. Truth be told all our classes need more skills and abilitys that set them apart from each other. Im still not opposed to the idea of a holy trinity. Tank,dps and healer. Cryptic would have to rework the stf missions tho to impliment these changes. Tank grabs agro, Dps starts doing damage, and sci debuffs and heals with mid range dps. Enemys could have abilitys that only science ships could debuff and they could have specific attacks that only a tank could absorb. Game needs alot of work. If cryptic wanted to put the IP on hold for a few months to improve their game I would be all for it. Simular to what squaresoft did with Final fantasy 14 a realm reborn. STO needs reborn IMO.
Vesta is already a Fleet-Level Ship. That is why they don't sell any buffed version of its weapon system at Fleet Stores. To get more all you have to do is dismiss the ship and reclaim it.
That does not mean that it wouldn't happen, just that they had not thought of it before. The first time something happens it is always new.
I want to respect STO's ability to make highly customizable and malleable ship set-ups while at the same time urging the game to shy away from the DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS mentality.
Cruisers can fall into a similar idea as Science vessels -- mainly the game needs reward healing and saving the lives of your team in the same way escorts are rewarded for pew pewing.
But it doesn't. Not to that extent.
We don't get additional dilithium for healing. We don't get loot for hitting a certain benchmark on healing or cleansing a teammate from debilitating effects.
We don't get additional marks for making sure escorts and science vessels spend X amount of time under the effects of cruiser comm arrays. We don't get Contraband for successfully launching Boarding Party onto an enemy NPC ship.
All of these things are possible. All of these things will make non-escorts desirable in missions while allowing escorts or DPSy cruisers to do their job.
These are just examples of rewarding science vessel and cruiser gameplay.
But this whole effort to turn science vessels and cruisers into escorts isn't going to be 'infinitely scalable'. Eventually the playerbase (or Cryptic, whichever comes first) will simply recognize that if they wanted an Escort, they would just simply play an Escort.
There would be no more "What's your beef with the Galaxy?" ruckus if there were engineering consoles that increased the chances of getting dilithium when healing your friends in a mission, or Contraband from launching boarding party.
And to prevent these things from being farmable, there would be rigorous safeguards in effect where you could only get so much of a reward in a mission or whatnot. Eventually it would simply drop off, making 'heal farms' unprofitable.
I think that they need a skill tree that is separate for each Class. We can keep most of what is there now as Universal. Every Captain knows how to shoot his weapon and how to fly his ship. But there should be branching ones, major skills with a choice of upgrades to add on to it. The Upgrades should block off other upgrades so that you have to pick and choose for versatility amongst players
Like the Space Accuracy Skills should be in the Tactical Tree. Upgrades should be for small boosts to Critical Hit Rates or less Weapon Power Drain.
Engineers should have the ability to Target Subsystems and upgrade that Targets an EPS Weak-Point that causes all of the Enemy's Power Levels to drop or knock out one Substsystem for 10 seconds.
Science should have Status Effects like a chance to add Plasma Fires or Radiation Exposure. Temporal Distortions that increase Dodge Rate with upgrades to your Rate of Fire or Health Regeneration.
And Enemies should have similar abilities. It would require more strategy to find the proper counters and better team play so that people can off-set each others' imbalances.
And seriously: give us the ability to have Disable Victories rather than Kill Victories. It happens during story plots so clearly it is possible. Give us a toggle for this.
That way escorts do not benefit from said console 'set' bonus, and science vessels and cruisers can compete in the DPS meta with Escorts.
It's not my favorite alternative, but it is an alternative if Cryptic does not want to change the meta.
Simply create science/engineering console sets that make the ships ridiculously overpowered and on par with Escorts.
You want to fix the Fleet Galaxy? Create a 5-piece Engineering Console Set (that only the Ha'apax, Operations Odyssey, and Fleet Galaxy can equip). And the 5-piece set bonus now turns your Fleet Galaxy into the godship people have been clamoring for.
There are so many options in the game to make science ships and cruisers balanced, with so many various mechanics.
The fact we still go back to the whole "More weapon slots, more tactical slots, more universal or tactical boff stations, and throw a hangar on it" discussion makes me wonder if we don't deserve the current 'meta'.
It may not reach the stupid high DPS from A2B Scimitar, but a well build science ship can make opponents scream in agony in PVP and go through NPC in any STF & PVE without difficulty.
I am not convinced that science ships need anything beyond the future second deflector.
Aux powered weapons would be nice, but those Aux-DHC are the signature of the Vesta and therefor i would advice against them being made available for any science ship.
Maybe a little boost to the innate cloak detection.
No! Just stop right there. Proceed no further. :mad:
That is why I suggested Aux Beams only. The higher output of the DHC should belong to the Vesta alone. Still, I would prefer to simply be ranked in groups by my Debuffing and Sci Heals. Leave the heavy damage to the Escorts.
Sorry for introducing reality into the discussion.
Because I don't really want more guns, I want more sci abilitys that actually improve my dps. Because STO is ALL about the dps. Adding more weapon slots to sci is a last resort to try and even out the playing field. Right now if my Tac and Engineer are contributing 100% to the battle if feels like a sci is contributing around 75-80%. Not a huge diffrence but just enough to make a person play the other classes more, and thats not right. They should all be contributing 100%. Weather it be in Healing, Debuffing, Tanking or dpsing.
Anything my science ship can do can be done better in escort or cruiser
Because PvE is DPS only..........What science powers used to do...... DPS now does quicker and easier
DPS is so high Grav wells arnt even needed..I am not saying they arnt effective ..there just not as effective s DPS
So in PvE there is no role left For a science ship that cant be done better in a escort or cruiser
A proper tank is a better healer than any science ship because no one takes damage other than the cruiser
A proper escort deals so much DPS a magic show isnt needed
Science magic cannot be used at effective level's in PvE because it creates imbalence in PvP
In order For science abilitys to be effective the time required to defet PvE enemys needs to be much longer
All PvE enemys need 4X their current shields and some shield heals as well
All PvE enemys need more shield resistances to energy damage
Tanks will now need science ships for heals to augment there own repair abilitys
NPC hulls need magor resistance to energy damage
Torpedos should be king on hull damage with the npcs having low resistnces to kinitic damage
science abilitys should focus on keeping shields down so torpedos can land on hull and not a tiny bit of shield like now taking away 75% of the torp damage
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
There are fleet-grade versions of Andorian phasers, no?
I've been playing using Science Vessels since the beginning of STO "career". I find Escorts to be boring and Cruisers to be clunky to use; and also, in all RPGs I prefer more caster classes than fighters. Science vessels fit the bill here with their 6-8 science abilities (ship I'm flying - my sig - has 7) and their relatively good manueverability.
However, flying a science ship is often ungrateful; while I can go through PvE content with relative ease (Gravity Well 3 + Torpedo: Spread 1 using Romulan Hyper-Torpedo Launcher is powerful combo), PvP is another story; squishy as hell, direct damage lower than escorts and cruisers, heals barely helping during alpha strikes, and all disruptions are immediately negated thanks to the Marion (I think) doff, Hazard Emitters, Science Team and APO. Only worthwile usage are very precise Subnuc beams and Jam/Scramble Sensors.
So yeah, I agree here with iconians; if science vessel captains won't be rewarded in fights (by rewarding heals, disruptions etc. instead of sheer damage), give them rewards in some other fields.
I used the secondary deflector on the sci destroyer, I don't use the sci destroyer anymore and I find that the secondary deflector was USELESS