I don't disagree as such; it just seemed that the Iconian's appearance was more a result of them being more than a little pee'ed off at us all. I mean, we've defeated their lackeys at every turn - so the psychological advantage was all but gone anyway.
But it does seem clear that they're a significant threat; if ONE Iconian can do what the one we saw did, I dread to think what they could do in numbers. And I remain completely unconvinced that we've seen anything of what the Obex (ship) could REALLY do.
Moot point anyway though - whilst the FE was a BIG breadcrumb, they don't feature in the new season content, so.....
^^ All of this, except that I *do* disagree with the OP.
For one, because, as you say, 'the psychological advantage was all but gone anyway.' And, for two, simply because the Iconian wanted to make a clear statement: 'Your needle-pricks are mildly annoying, at best, but don't kid yourself into thinking you have even the slighest chance against us.'
As a story-vehicle, her presence served to further demonstrate the need to work together (which addition wasn't really necessary, IMHO, but cute nonetheless).
I figured this is some kind of false flag operation, and I look to the Romulan Republic for the perpetrator.
If I might present my case as two parts, part one being motive:
-The Romulan Republic has the most to gain by uniting the powers against the Iconians, the Klingons want war on the High Council, and the Federation has more morals than that mostly, and Section 31 likes war. The Romulan Republic gains unified support for their new government, and without the two trying to kill each other the Republic won't get caught in the crossfire.
-The Romulan Star Empire is known for its manipulation of galactic events, including a massive escalation of the Dominion War for their benefit. It is rather foolhardy to assume that the same officers who served the Star Empire would not use similar methods to aid the Republic
-It is already theorized that they staged the events of Turning Point, which is convincing
Second part, Ability to do so:
-The Romulan Republic seemed to have study the Dyson Sphere and the gateway extensively, and have likely acquired a lot of technology, likely including the portal the 'Iconian' made
-There is established use of holo-emitters to impersonate other individuals, and the Romulans have the best cloaking technology, and thus light bending tech
-The Romulans had ships in orbit
-Many are willing to martyr themselves, as seen by the Romulan episodes
"I am a travelor of both time and space to be where I have been"
That doesn't really make any sense.
-The Republic has been studying the Solanae Sphere and the Gateway for just as long as the Federation and the Empire. Technically the Federation has a bit more experience thanks to the Jenolan Sphere.
-The Republic is moving away from the deception that the Star Empire favored, as stated by D'Tan himself.
-The abilities shown by the Iconian are far beyond even Republic tech. Nuking 6 Klingons with a wave of its hand like that kinda negates Romulan involvement unless they had mini Thaleron devices attached to them somewhere. But even then... how were they levitated before they got blasted?
My take is different. The Iconians are or were not at all interested in us particularly. They are involved in a game with much higher stakes. By revealing the face of our enemy Cryptic now have to invent a more potent unseen adversary which will become apparent over the coming months and years.
The Iconians are at war with a race of beings of almost unimaginable power. They are not fighting over star systems or galaxies, but their battle ground are galactic clusters, whole and sizeable portions of the universe. By controlling powerful local species across entire galaxies they can lay claim to entire groups of galaxies. They chose powerful servitors, in many different galaxies, however in one galaxy their plans are not working out as smoothly as intended. This has attracted their attention and hence the reveal and the warning.
You can watch the final cut scene again here: MAJOR SPOILER
note what it says, "We give you a single warning". "Do not attract our attention again".
The wording is very interesting, "attract our attention", even after all the massive battles we have had with their servitor races all we did was attract their attention, like a fly landing on your arm, and like a fly the Iconian swatted six warriors with a wave of it's hand.
There is no hint of fear from the Iconian, it was a genuine and single threat from a creature so far in advance of us it barely merited an appearance but perhaps through a desire to save time and energy it was deemed a single warning would be enough.
We are no more threat to them as the fly on our arm is to us and we can be swatted just as easily. They have their own reasons for not doing so but their patience is not unending. Our next move could be our last.
I agree the iconians are really powerful, maybe a touch beneath the Ancients/Ori from stargate in terms of power, since the Q seem to fit the ascended being bill. But what I get from the "do not attract our attention again" speech shows that they either were not paying enough attention indicating a lack of learning from history. Or ignoring completely which still is a fatal mistake ala "never turn your back on a Breen."
It's strange but I think the iconians are almost the trek equivalent of a Sith with access to a stargate.
That being said the iconians vs the alpha quadrant seems like a medieval knight (roms, feds, kdf) with a sword facing off against a sith (iconians) who have lightsabers
^Okay, if they're fighting over entire galactic clusters, explain why they give half a hump about three little flea-speck countries that are only superpowers when compared to their own neighbors.
history.
d-day landings wouldnt have happened if the russians haddnt tied up 3/5 to 3/4 of the german army up on the eastern front.
last thing you want when your forces are elsewhere, is for an unexpected breach in your defences to occur.
also, as the shadows would point out, the alpha quadrants constant somewhat balanced infighting is a source of strength due to the development driven by the conflict.
are you trying to say that our freedom today is earned because the reds saved our skins? if that is the case, why is the USA acting like Russia is its enemy still and why arent the Russians more celebrated in Europe?
Not quite. By 1944 the Red Army was big and powerful enough that if the US hadn't invaded France, the Soviets would have eventually overrun all of TRIBBLE-occupied Europe (read: basically the whole continent), and FDR knew it. In other words, the U.S entry into the European theater of WWII was as much about hemming in our own "allies" as it was about defeating the TRIBBLE.
If the Iconians are the TRIBBLE in this WWII analogy, whoever their primary enemy is would be the Soviets. However, that's as far as the analogy goes. At this point the Alpha Quadrant powers are completely unaware of any larger war involving the Iconians, so all they're concerned with is keeping the Undine at bay, not preventing some unknown distant power from overrunning them along with the Iconians.
Not quite. By 1944 the Red Army was big and powerful enough that if the US hadn't invaded France, the Soviets would have eventually overrun all of TRIBBLE-occupied Europe (read: basically the whole continent), and FDR knew it. In other words, the U.S entry into the European theater of WWII was as much about hemming in our own "allies" as it was about defeating the TRIBBLE.
If the Iconians are the TRIBBLE in this WWII analogy, whoever their primary enemy is would be the Soviets. However, that's as far as the analogy goes. At this point the Alpha Quadrant powers are completely unaware of any larger war involving the Iconians, so all they're concerned with is keeping the Undine at bay, not preventing some unknown distant power from overrunning them along with the Iconians.
And you, too, completely missed the point of my post. My argument is that an analogy of any historical Earth war ever doesn't apply at all to mattjohnsonva's scenario because of scale issues. What the person I was responding to proposed was less like WWII and more like a Stone Age tribe of fifty people trying to take on the militaries of the entire Information Age world simultaneously in an open-field battle. Except even more lopsided.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And you, too, completely missed the point of my post. My argument is that an analogy of any historical Earth war ever doesn't apply at all to mattjohnsonva's scenario because of scale issues. What the person I was responding to proposed was less like WWII and more like a Stone Age tribe of fifty people trying to take on the militaries of the entire Information Age world simultaneously in an open-field battle. Except even more lopsided.
I was responding mainly to the last two posts in the above chain. I only added yours for context.
I have to agree with the OP, what the villains were doing in this episode were stupid tactics, they were the classic cliche' monologuing. The greatest tactic the Iconians had working for them was that inkling of doubt that they didn't exist while working through proxies to keep everyone at odds with each other, showing themselves was a colossal blunder and that little display of power was a smoke and mirrors show that any of the parties present could have reproduced and Cooper psychically taunting a psychic? As Homer Simpson would say, D'oh.
Well we finally got to see an Iconian, now they can go back into hiding for another couple years while we fight idiot kazon while flying around in Malon garbage scows. :rolleyes:
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
I have to agree with the OP, what the villains were doing in this episode were stupid tactics, they were the classic cliche' monologuing. The greatest tactic the Iconians had working for them was that inkling of doubt that they didn't exist while working through proxies to keep everyone at odds with each other, showing themselves was a colossal blunder and that little display of power was a smoke and mirrors show that any of the parties present could have reproduced and Cooper psychically taunting a psychic? As Homer Simpson would say, D'oh.
Well we finally got to see an Iconian, now they can go back into hiding for another couple years while we fight idiot kazon while flying around in Malon garbage scows. :rolleyes:
It's easy to say a plan was a bad idea when you're looking in hindsight.
Anyways, the Iconians's shroud of "are they really out there" got dispelled already. That's what the Undine/Borg story arc ends with. Then we have Step Between Stars and Sphere of Influence. We don't see them in person, but it's like looking behind the curtain and seeing the controls used to operate the Wizard of Oz, but not the controller.
If the Iconians could easily wipe out the Alpha/Beta quadrants by themselves, they would have done so without all the covert infiltration and subversion. Since we can now conclude that we pose a credible threat to them, they just made the biggest strategic blunder imaginable.
If you want to keep your enemies divided and fighting each other, the very worst thing you could do when they unite is to show up at the party all Malificent style and start making vague threats. You might as well paint a big target on your head and hold up a sign saying "I'm the guy who's been TRIBBLE all of you over big-time and you should be united in the close bonds of friendship against me. Would you like my home address?".
We know they're coming. We know they're afraid. And now we've seen their face. They've lost every advantage in psychological warfare that they had over us.
I have to agree.
When the Iconian came out and started spouting off all I could hear is
Since they've been revealed this way, when I think of the Iconians I keep thinking of that episode in TNG where that con-artist was trying to convince some planets population she was the devil, using technological slight of hand to convince everyone she was more powerful. Just from a story telling perspective I would wonder how much of the Iconian's might actually exists and how much of it is only servitor races that have been conned into participating.
If something is not broken, don't fix it, if it is broken, don't leave it broken.
I get the impression from that little speech that the Iconians are used to working with easily-cowed species. I imagine, for instance, that her/its little scene would have made quite an impression on the Ferengi as we first saw them on TNG.
Sucks for them that humans and Klingons are too stubborn to swallow it...
Not quite. By 1944 the Red Army was big and powerful enough that if the US hadn't invaded France, the Soviets would have eventually overrun all of TRIBBLE-occupied Europe (read: basically the whole continent), and FDR knew it. In other words, the U.S entry into the European theater of WWII was as much about hemming in our own "allies" as it was about defeating the TRIBBLE.
This is what we are to believe. both sides of the war were funded by the SAME people and FDR KNEW about an attack on PH. Furthermore, the US entry into the war was WANTED by those funding the war for "financial gains" and and "Agenda Forwarding" reasons.
But i digress...
The iconians are going down. They will be a fire which forges the steel which with birth the weapons of the iconian downfall. Their choice is simple: Leave us be, keep to themselves or reap the whirlwind.
Comments
^^ All of this, except that I *do* disagree with the OP.
For one, because, as you say, 'the psychological advantage was all but gone anyway.' And, for two, simply because the Iconian wanted to make a clear statement: 'Your needle-pricks are mildly annoying, at best, but don't kid yourself into thinking you have even the slighest chance against us.'
As a story-vehicle, her presence served to further demonstrate the need to work together (which addition wasn't really necessary, IMHO, but cute nonetheless).
If I might present my case as two parts, part one being motive:
-The Romulan Republic has the most to gain by uniting the powers against the Iconians, the Klingons want war on the High Council, and the Federation has more morals than that mostly, and Section 31 likes war. The Romulan Republic gains unified support for their new government, and without the two trying to kill each other the Republic won't get caught in the crossfire.
-The Romulan Star Empire is known for its manipulation of galactic events, including a massive escalation of the Dominion War for their benefit. It is rather foolhardy to assume that the same officers who served the Star Empire would not use similar methods to aid the Republic
-It is already theorized that they staged the events of Turning Point, which is convincing
Second part, Ability to do so:
-The Romulan Republic seemed to have study the Dyson Sphere and the gateway extensively, and have likely acquired a lot of technology, likely including the portal the 'Iconian' made
-There is established use of holo-emitters to impersonate other individuals, and the Romulans have the best cloaking technology, and thus light bending tech
-The Romulans had ships in orbit
-Many are willing to martyr themselves, as seen by the Romulan episodes
-The Republic has been studying the Solanae Sphere and the Gateway for just as long as the Federation and the Empire. Technically the Federation has a bit more experience thanks to the Jenolan Sphere.
-The Republic is moving away from the deception that the Star Empire favored, as stated by D'Tan himself.
-The abilities shown by the Iconian are far beyond even Republic tech. Nuking 6 Klingons with a wave of its hand like that kinda negates Romulan involvement unless they had mini Thaleron devices attached to them somewhere. But even then... how were they levitated before they got blasted?
[Face_popcorn]
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
I agree the iconians are really powerful, maybe a touch beneath the Ancients/Ori from stargate in terms of power, since the Q seem to fit the ascended being bill. But what I get from the "do not attract our attention again" speech shows that they either were not paying enough attention indicating a lack of learning from history. Or ignoring completely which still is a fatal mistake ala "never turn your back on a Breen."
It's strange but I think the iconians are almost the trek equivalent of a Sith with access to a stargate.
That being said the iconians vs the alpha quadrant seems like a medieval knight (roms, feds, kdf) with a sword facing off against a sith (iconians) who have lightsabers
[/SIGPIC]
Not quite. By 1944 the Red Army was big and powerful enough that if the US hadn't invaded France, the Soviets would have eventually overrun all of TRIBBLE-occupied Europe (read: basically the whole continent), and FDR knew it. In other words, the U.S entry into the European theater of WWII was as much about hemming in our own "allies" as it was about defeating the TRIBBLE.
If the Iconians are the TRIBBLE in this WWII analogy, whoever their primary enemy is would be the Soviets. However, that's as far as the analogy goes. At this point the Alpha Quadrant powers are completely unaware of any larger war involving the Iconians, so all they're concerned with is keeping the Undine at bay, not preventing some unknown distant power from overrunning them along with the Iconians.
My Foundry missions | My STO Wiki page | My Twitter home page
And you, too, completely missed the point of my post. My argument is that an analogy of any historical Earth war ever doesn't apply at all to mattjohnsonva's scenario because of scale issues. What the person I was responding to proposed was less like WWII and more like a Stone Age tribe of fifty people trying to take on the militaries of the entire Information Age world simultaneously in an open-field battle. Except even more lopsided.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I was responding mainly to the last two posts in the above chain. I only added yours for context.
My Foundry missions | My STO Wiki page | My Twitter home page
Well we finally got to see an Iconian, now they can go back into hiding for another couple years while we fight idiot kazon while flying around in Malon garbage scows. :rolleyes:
Anyways, the Iconians's shroud of "are they really out there" got dispelled already. That's what the Undine/Borg story arc ends with. Then we have Step Between Stars and Sphere of Influence. We don't see them in person, but it's like looking behind the curtain and seeing the controls used to operate the Wizard of Oz, but not the controller.
My character Tsin'xing
I have to agree.
When the Iconian came out and started spouting off all I could hear is
"You'll Pay for This Captain Planet!"
I'll get you next time Gadget!!!!
My character Tsin'xing
Sucks for them that humans and Klingons are too stubborn to swallow it...
This is what we are to believe. both sides of the war were funded by the SAME people and FDR KNEW about an attack on PH. Furthermore, the US entry into the war was WANTED by those funding the war for "financial gains" and and "Agenda Forwarding" reasons.
But i digress...
The iconians are going down. They will be a fire which forges the steel which with birth the weapons of the iconian downfall. Their choice is simple: Leave us be, keep to themselves or reap the whirlwind.