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Hirogen Beam-Scort Hybrid A2B/A2D for PvP

rck01rck01 Member Posts: 808 Arc User
edited March 2014 in PvP Gameplay
Looking for feedback on my latest project, a Hirogen Hunter Heavy Escort configured as a FAW/Beam-Scort for use in PvP, Ker'rat happy fun times, etc.

Here's the build page:

http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=rckhiroreva_0

So far, this build is...

1. Fast - with APO3, EM3 (+Helmsman) and EPtE1 cycling in my keybind - can hit 200 without full impulse
2. Tanky - EPtS, TSS, RSP, SCap, Neut and RCS w/AllRes - it's hard to kill
3. Hits hard - 6 Acc x3 beams with 164-189 overcap (depending on WCE) = 31.5 peak per beam
4. Hybrid - get power boost from A2B, then decent Aux levels (75+) while A2D is up and A2B on CD
5. Keeps hitting - 4x subs into AMP territory when A2B is on CD to keep the damage coming
6. Slippery - PH1, APO3 and plenty of engine boost help me get out of trouble

Playing with the "Inertial Dampener" console that comes with the ship. Could be useful in a pinch (e.g. need to switch direction while being ganked - the 100% defense is nice), but not sure if it's worth sacrificing a console slot. At least it's a uni so I have flexibility in that department.

Anyway, comments and feedback are welcome/appreciated. I'd also like to hear from others who are flying this "fugly duckling" to see how they're setting it up for PvP. I'm assuming most players will go the cannons/turrets/DBB route, but the Boff layout flexibility and support for additional engineering powers makes it an attractive "mini-beam-boat" platform, IMHO. :)

RCK
Post edited by rck01 on
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Comments

  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Honestly I'm not really under standing why you wouldn't just run this with cannons ?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • rck01rck01 Member Posts: 808 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Honestly I'm not really under standing why you wouldn't just run this with cannons ?

    Because I *like* beams. It's the play style I'm used to. That, and I can't aim worth a damn... :)

    But seriously, why not? If I can maintain 90% of the advantages of a FAW boat (wide arcs, overcapping, AoE attack capability), while mitigating some of its limitations (slow, difficult to turn, easy to hit), why wouldn't I?

    I tried (and only marginally succeeded) with my FPE. This new Hirogen platform gives me the extra engineering space to run 2x A2B or A2B/A2D, providing for insane power levels or solid power + resists/additional maneuvering. In fact, the only things I really miss are DEM3 and Cruiser Commands - and, of course, a 7th beam. But 6 at 164-189 overcap is still nice, so...

    Aren't we all tired of cookie-cutter cannon escort builds? :)

    RCK
  • twamtwam Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Personally, I'm tired of the cookie cutter FaW builds, but that's just me :P

    Nevertheless, go with whatever you enjoy! Versus a single target DHC's are probably more effective, but FaW spam builds do well in the statistics *shrug*
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    rck01 wrote: »
    Aren't we all tired of cookie-cutter cannon escort builds? :)

    RCK

    Think you might be a bit mistaken as to what the current cookie cutter build is. I still don't get why you want to fly an escort like a cruiser. :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • rck01rck01 Member Posts: 808 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Think you might be a bit mistaken as to what the current cookie cutter build is. I still don't get why you want to fly an escort like a cruiser. :)

    Because...

    1. I can - this build makes it possible
    2. I'm pretty good at it - fairly successful in my FAHCR
    3. It drives the bug ship captains nuts <--- Main reason

    And I don't exactly fly it like a cruiser. Rather, I simply execute my very effective cruiser pressure damage tactics from a more mobile, agile platform.

    Run into me in a match or Ker'rat and judge for yourself... if you can catch me, that is. :)

    RCK
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    beams on this are a bit weird. if i wanted to run beams on something like this id use my fleet vet ship, basically the same setup just down 3 base turn, but it actually looks like a ship that should be using beams
  • rck01rck01 Member Posts: 808 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    beams on this are a bit weird. if i wanted to run beams on something like this id use my fleet vet ship, basically the same setup just down 3 base turn, but it actually looks like a ship that should be using beams

    That would have been my first choice, as well. But as an F2P player, I don't have access to that excellent platform. So this is my next best option. Plus, it was a reasonable grind at ~60m ec on the Exchange.

    Try to ignore the looks. Squint a bit. Maybe adjust your monitor out of focus (if that can even be done these days). And, perhaps, you'll mistake it for a Vet ship...perhaps...maybe...in an alternate universe... :)

    RCK
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    eh whatever makes you happy I guess. If flying in faster circles mashing space bar makes you happy have at it. You really should perhaps learn how to pilot though... I mean we all know its only a matter of time before they either fix faw or you have no one worth shooting anyway. Really if they don't do it soon enough both could end up happening. :)

    I still don't get it if you want to fly an escort fly one... don't go and cheese it up with broken beam abilities.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • ilhanskilhansk Member Posts: 620 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Replace aids with FAW

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6szE_qmzavQ

    FAW online
    Visit the Inner Circle YouTube Channel to watch some STO pew pew PVP action!

  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    eh whatever makes you happy I guess. If flying in faster circles mashing space bar makes you happy have at it. You really should perhaps learn how to pilot though... I mean we all know its only a matter of time before they either fix faw or you have no one worth shooting anyway. Really if they don't do it soon enough both could end up happening. :)

    I still don't get it if you want to fly an escort fly one... don't go and cheese it up with broken beam abilities.

    Spot on. There's two things I do when I see this type of boat in action. One of those is leave.
  • xalexkxxalexkx Member Posts: 193 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    cannon escorts? now in sto pvp? this is not 2012-2013
    this is the year of faw faw faw a2b and romulan cloak vapers
    To boldly go where no FAWer has ever FAWed before.
  • ehrlehnehrlehn Member Posts: 137 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    I run a beam hiroscort, but while i do have FAW available, I rarely use it, I am not really a fan of FAW and am considering replacing those copies with BO instead for some needed spike. However, once I get my spire disruptor consoles and one more SRO boff, I'll probably be running an all cannon disruptor build again, I prefer that playstyle on escorts anyway. and an elachi/nanite build ought to be nasty with my 24% chance crit rate. i hope.

    my preferred engie boff layout is:
    epts1, a2d1, eptw3
    et1

    at the moment my tacs are setup:

    tt1, faw2, beta2, beta3
    tt1, faw2, (apo1), ( apo3)

    i switch them back and forth as needed.

    but seeing as i am an eng, your mileage may vary, I dont have a problem overcapping beams to hell and back due to my traits.

    Derrick - Fed Eng
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Beam escorts with disables used to be popular. They where very unpopular with people that had to fight against them back when cannons had even more of a up angle restriction. lol Now with all the extra engi teams though target subs are likely even less effective. Still for a 1v1 type fight I could see that still working out somewhat.

    Rck... seriously man try out the guns. I bet you are not that bad with them. I haven't run into you that often in game but the few times I did. You seemed to know what you where doing. I doubt you are that bad with them.

    Also they are really NOT that bad right now. 4 DHC is in fact pretty good right now. The Vape thing ya ya its powerful always well be if its done right. Really though the team change boosts spike healing vs that.... but spike healing is in fact a weakness vs a good high pressure cannon build. Load 3 DHC and a single cannon on there with 2 turrets and your cutting beam.... I bet you will find after people pop 2 or 3 team skills they won't be able to resist there way through the second Rapid fire activation.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • rck01rck01 Member Posts: 808 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Rck... seriously man try out the guns. I bet you are not that bad with them. I haven't run into you that often in game but the few times I did. You seemed to know what you where doing. I doubt you are that bad with them.

    First off, I *have* tried "the guns" - both on my FPE at various times over 3+ years, and just last night on my Hirogen (FYI: I didn't start flying cruisers until about 9 months ago). And as before, I was underwhelmed by the result.

    Yes, I could get a decent bit of spike damage going - for example, insta-vaping cubes in Ker'rat using the 1-2-3 punch of 3 DHCs, 2 turrets and a DBB (all AP fleet Mark 12 2x Acc/2x Dmg). I even ground out 100K FCs and 20K dil to buy a pair of AP locators (my other 2 consoles are sill mark 11 blue) to increase my CritH (currently 15.4 on the Attack tab). But the annoyance of having to fly up, park and then unload - often for several seconds if the first or second volley doesn't finish the target - drove me crazy.

    The delay between volleys/slow DHC firing cycle I also find irritating, especially in PvP. I have my sights lined up on a target, all my buffs are up, and the damned guns won't fire. And maybe this is just the animation lagging, but I swear AP shots travel like molasses on screen. They just "feel" slow compared to what I'm used to with beam play.

    By contrast, when using beams I'm constantly on the move and hitting hard. I fly. I turn. I reposition. I broadside. And in PvP, I get to keep the bulk of my fire on target while doing all of those things. Can I spike people into the ground? No. But with my Hirogen, I can keep pace with even the speediest players as they "juke and jive," allowing me to maintain the pressure until they crack. There's nothing an escort jockey hates more than an enemy who won't give them any space to breathe in between strafing runs. :)

    And lest you think it somehow "easier" to fight this way, remember: As a beam boat, I'm sacrificing a lot of things in the name of the "Holy Grail" overcap. For example, dedicating 1 or 2 valuable Eng stations to A2B that could be running A2S, 2x A2D or EPtS2. Or running Uni consoles like Nukara and Leech in slots that could be hosting more armor, turn consoles or even a field gen or emitter array (though I still run Nukara for the DBB when in cannon-scort mode). Or religiously slotting EPtS, along with TSS, RSP and whatever else I pray will keep my shields up as I'm being spiked incessantly.

    As for the whole "flying in circles" myth, try doing that in a 1v1 with someone like my mildly "psychotic," weed-puffing friend Baukolotz. You give him a single shield facing for more than a few seconds and you're toast. It's maneuver or die, and that means helping TT (or supplementing it entirely during CD) by spinning like a top to distribute the incoming fire. Otherwise, you might as well pack it in, because the spike is going to get you before long.

    Now don't get me wrong. I'm not a complete noob when it comes to cannon play, at least in PvE. In fact, I used nothing BUT cannons for my first two years in the game. I was convinced they were OP, and that my FPE with 3x DHCs, 3x turrets and 1x Quantum was the pinnacle of ship design. Then I watched some cruiser jockey shred KASE with beams I realized there was a whole other level to this game. So I started parsing ComatLog, found I was doing - at best - 5K damage with cannons/turrets/torps, and immediately went shopping for my first true love, the FAHCR.

    Bottom Line: My current Hirogen build is not the byproduct of some noob cruiser captain who couldn't make it work with cannons so he defaulted back to beams. Rather, it's a conscious decision to break with convention by marrying some of the best build ideas from both worlds in an effort to create something new and different...

    ...a tough little ship that moves like an escort, tanks like a cruiser and hits as hard, if not harder, than either. :)

    RCK
  • blessedladyboyblessedladyboy Member Posts: 349 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    rck01 wrote: »
    First off, I *have* tried "the guns" - both on my FPE at various times over 3+ years, and just last night on my Hirogen (FYI: I didn't start flying cruisers until about 9 months ago). And as before, I was underwhelmed by the result.

    Yes, I could get a decent bit of spike damage going - for example, insta-vaping cubes in Ker'rat using the 1-2-3 punch of 3 DHCs, 2 turrets and a DBB (all AP fleet Mark 12 2x Acc/2x Dmg). I even ground out 100K FCs and 20K dil to buy a pair of AP locators (my other 2 consoles are sill mark 11 blue) to increase my CritH (currently 15.4 on the Attack tab). But the annoyance of having to fly up, park and then unload - often for several seconds if the first or second volley doesn't finish the target - drove me crazy.

    The delay between volleys/slow DHC firing cycle I also find irritating, especially in PvP. I have my sights lined up on a target, all my buffs are up, and the damned guns won't fire. And maybe this is just the animation lagging, but I swear AP shots travel like molasses on screen. They just "feel" slow compared to what I'm used to with beam play.

    By contrast, when using beams I'm constantly on the move and hitting hard. I fly. I turn. I reposition. I broadside. And in PvP, I get to keep the bulk of my fire on target while doing all of those things. Can I spike people into the ground? No. But with my Hirogen, I can keep pace with even the speediest players as they "juke and jive," allowing me to maintain the pressure until they crack. There's nothing an escort jockey hates more than an enemy who won't give them any space to breathe in between strafing runs. :)

    And lest you think it somehow "easier" to fight this way, remember: As a beam boat, I'm sacrificing a lot of things in the name of the "Holy Grail" overcap. For example, dedicating 1 or 2 valuable Eng stations to A2B that could be running A2S, 2x A2D or EPtS2. Or running Uni consoles like Nukara and Leech in slots that could be hosting more armor, turn consoles or even a field gen or emitter array (though I still run Nukara for the DBB when in cannon-scort mode). Or religiously slotting EPtS, along with TSS, RSP and whatever else I pray will keep my shields up as I'm being spiked incessantly.

    As for the whole "flying in circles" myth, try doing that in a 1v1 with someone like my mildly "psychotic," weed-puffing friend Baukolotz. You give him a single shield facing for more than a few seconds and you're toast. It's maneuver or die, and that means helping TT (or supplementing it entirely during CD) by spinning like a top to distribute the incoming fire. Otherwise, you might as well pack it in, because the spike is going to get you before long.

    Now don't get me wrong. I'm not a complete noob when it comes to cannon play, at least in PvE. In fact, I used nothing BUT cannons for my first two years in the game. I was convinced they were OP, and that my FPE with 3x DHCs, 3x turrets and 1x Quantum was the pinnacle of ship design. Then I watched some cruiser jockey shred KASE with beams I realized there was a whole other level to this game. So I started parsing ComatLog, found I was doing - at best - 5K damage with cannons/turrets/torps, and immediately went shopping for my first true love, the FAHCR.

    Bottom Line: My current Hirogen build is not the byproduct of some noob cruiser captain who couldn't make it work with cannons so he defaulted back to beams. Rather, it's a conscious decision to break with convention by marrying some of the best build ideas from both worlds in an effort to create something new and different...

    ...a tough little ship that moves like an escort, tanks like a cruiser and hits as hard, if not harder, than either. :)

    RCK


    Have u tried the galor? Sounds like it would suit you nicely. Its a cruiser but manouvers very escort like.

    Been tempted to try a a2b/a2d hybrid on mine. How does it work? Bind them both to space bar or do u click them situationally?

    And regarding cannons. I've recently switched to 8 cannon build on my scimi and its enjoying the team changes! It loves killing through eng teams and dem through RSP.
  • rck01rck01 Member Posts: 808 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Have u tried the galor? Sounds like it would suit you nicely. Its a cruiser but manouvers very escort like.

    Been tempted to try a a2b/a2d hybrid on mine. How does it work? Bind them both to space bar or do u click them situationally?

    And regarding cannons. I've recently switched to 8 cannon build on my scimi and its enjoying the team changes! It loves killing through eng teams and dem through RSP.

    I've heard good things about the Galor. Some of the better pilots in Ker'rat fly A2B Galors as their cruiser of choice. FWIW, I can get my FAHCR spinning like a top with A2D and some Fleet RCS and/or +Turn Neut consoles - almost on par with the Galor. However, those 3 Tac consoles on the Galor would turn me off. And, TBH, you can't compare a base 10 turn rate to the base 17 on my hunter. :)

    As for my hybrid model, I've got both A2B1 and A2D1 bound to my directional keys (and spacebar). That way they're always cycling - when the shared CD has expired, whichever one is ready to go gets popped as soon as I pitch, yaw or mash. So I'm either looking at a power surge across Weps/Engs/Shields, or a resist boost combined with a speed/turn upgrade and 4x subsystems into AMP. Very potent.

    RCK
  • chlamidiotchlamidiot Member Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Not the first time this has come up.
    redricky wrote: »
    "But won't that buff beamscort pilots?"
    Yes, but it won't wipe away the shame of being one.
    I think anybody who comes to this build through honest means has already had community opinion ruined for them by those who abused spiraling and memories of Sprinkles running it.
    -notredricky
  • jangoak47jangoak47 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Ahhhh Rck, I was wondering about your beam build, I personally prefer cannons on mine, but to each his own, picked mine up for a measly 5 million though ;)

    But I'd say overall you build is solid and good, if beams work better than cannons for you than more power to you man, find a play style that works and run with it. I personally have no problems with A2B builds, it's a cheap and effective build and I think that's why it irks so many people, sure the low cool down RSP is TRIBBLE, but PvP is like 60% timing anyway.

    Anyways, good build, but have you considered trying it on a JHEC? I think it would he quite effective there, and you'd get nifty hangar pets! It'll cost you a pretty penny though.

    Steve.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • chlamidiotchlamidiot Member Posts: 120 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    jangoak47 wrote: »
    Ahhhh Rck, I was wondering about your beam build, I personally prefer cannons on mine, but to each his own, picked mine up for a measly 5 million though ;)

    But I'd say overall you build is solid and good, if beams work better than cannons for you than more power to you man, find a play style that works and run with it. I personally have no problems with A2B builds, it's a cheap and effective build and I think that's why it irks so many people, sure the low cool down RSP is TRIBBLE, but PvP is like 60% timing anyway.

    Anyways, good build, but have you considered trying it on a JHEC? I think it would he quite effective there, and you'd get nifty hangar pets! It'll cost you a pretty penny though.

    Steve.
    Yes, Steve, the low cool down on RSP is attracted to bridge officer abilities of the same sex.

    Seriously? What year is it?

    The PvP community has "standards," a term used as loosely as a prom queen finger banged by Godzilla, but it's still not ok to use "TRIBBLE" that way.

    Also, yeah, JHEC is cool, I've been wanting to run elite siphon drones that return aux on a build like this.
    -notredricky
  • rck01rck01 Member Posts: 808 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    jangoak47 wrote: »
    Ahhhh Rck, I was wondering about your beam build, I personally prefer cannons on mine, but to each his own, picked mine up for a measly 5 million though ;)

    But I'd say overall you build is solid and good, if beams work better than cannons for you than more power to you man, find a play style that works and run with it. I personally have no problems with A2B builds, it's a cheap and effective build and I think that's why it irks so many people, sure the low cool down RSP is TRIBBLE, but PvP is like 60% timing anyway.

    Anyways, good build, but have you considered trying it on a JHEC? I think it would he quite effective there, and you'd get nifty hangar pets! It'll cost you a pretty penny though.

    Steve.

    Well, Steve, I do believe I *owned* you in your cannon build more than once last night. :D

    But seriously, this boat cries out for beams. It's got the engineering chops to tank like a cruiser, and the speed/turn to give the escort jockeys fits.

    Took a whole fleet of them to down me in Ker'rat last night. It was like some ridiculous fox hunt, with the horses (cruisers) and dogs (escorts) all scrambling after my little brown TRIBBLE of a ship. I swear it was 8-10 v 1 by the time I fell, and I popped a few of them on the way down.

    I could *never* do that in my cruiser, or even in this ship with cannons (hard to fire "over your shoulder" with DHCs).

    It may be good with cannons, but slot a few arrays and it becomes the ultimate beam-scort platform. :)

    Note: And isn't it a bit sad that I had to go to a lock box ship to realize my build vision? Why doesn't cryptic make a viable "destroyer-like" ship available to Fed players in a straight, F2P format? For the record, I didn't pay cash for my Hirogen. But I did grind out 60m EC just to get a ship with decent turn/speed and more than one Lt.-level engineering slot. Seems like an oversight (or perhaps not). :(

    RCK
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Well the thing is... and I am not saying you where not having fun I guess if that is your idea of fun have at it. The thing is though FAW is busted bad. We all know it you could put faw on a science ship and do well... because its a horrible mechanic. What ever you find fun though have at it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    rck01 wrote: »
    Looking for feedback on my latest project, a Hirogen Hunter Heavy Escort configured as a FAW/Beam-Scort for use in PvP, Ker'rat happy fun times, etc.

    Here's the build page:

    http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=rckhiroreva_0

    So far, this build is...

    1. Fast - with APO3, EM3 (+Helmsman) and EPtE1 cycling in my keybind - can hit 200 without full impulse
    2. Tanky - EPtS, TSS, RSP, SCap, Neut and RCS w/AllRes - it's hard to kill
    3. Hits hard - 6 Acc x3 beams with 164-189 overcap (depending on WCE) = 31.5 peak per beam
    4. Hybrid - get power boost from A2B, then decent Aux levels (75+) while A2D is up and A2B on CD
    5. Keeps hitting - 4x subs into AMP territory when A2B is on CD to keep the damage coming
    6. Slippery - PH1, APO3 and plenty of engine boost help me get out of trouble

    Playing with the "Inertial Dampener" console that comes with the ship. Could be useful in a pinch (e.g. need to switch direction while being ganked - the 100% defense is nice), but not sure if it's worth sacrificing a console slot. At least it's a uni so I have flexibility in that department.

    Anyway, comments and feedback are welcome/appreciated. I'd also like to hear from others who are flying this "fugly duckling" to see how they're setting it up for PvP. I'm assuming most players will go the cannons/turrets/DBB route, but the Boff layout flexibility and support for additional engineering powers makes it an attractive "mini-beam-boat" platform, IMHO. :)

    RCK

    I still prefer your cruiser. The only advantage you have with this build is speed, which may help you get away from 8 - 10 HOBO / ISC ganking you. However, that can be easily compensated by simply adding Deuterium Surplus to one of your Device slots. You can farm for Deuterium Surplus daily, which you get 4 / day and it takes only 3 minutes to complete. Your cruiser has 4 device slots, which you can easily spare one for Deuterium Surplus. Read more about it here :

    http://sto.gamepedia.com/Deuterium_Surplus

    Note, Starship Driver Coil skill enhances Deuterium Surplus, you can easily get more than 400% speed burst with 3 points Driver Coil skill and it also reduces your power drain while under Full Impulse and increases your speed under Full Impulse. I recommend at least 3 points into the Driver Coil skill because it's a cheap skill and very useful in Kerrat to get away from HOBO ganking. 8 seconds is more than enough to get your ship off red alert status and ready to go to Full Impulse when Deuterium Burn expires. It's actually a lot more powerful than the Impulse Burst console used by Klingons so if you jump, and they use Impulse Burst, they won't be able to catch because they can't turn while your turn rate will be enhanced by 350%+ so if you jump and do perpendicular adjustment mid-way, you will lose any pursuing Klingons for sure unless they also use Deuterium burn which is rare because most of them are in vaper-escort / bop with few device slots. Using this, you are going to make it very frustrating for HOBO to gank you. If possible, use this in combination with Quantum Manipulation, say near the expiration of the Deuterium Burn - you can pretty much get out of any jam using these two back to back. K'Vork sometimes used this combination when ganked by a gazillion of HOBO + ISC + NoP in Kerrat when he played STO, coupled with Molecular Phase Inverter, nothing drived those mobs totally mad when they realized there was just no way they can gank you. :)

    With respect to your build specifically, I am noticing a very high dependence on Auxiliary power. 5 of your boff skills are Aux dependent. For an Escort, that's very high and risky. The reason being, Escort typically can't maintain very high Auxiliary power as most of their powers are focused on Weapons and Engines. Not only that, the 5 skills of yours that are Aux dependent are critical to your ship's survival, namely, PH, TSS, HE, A2B, A2D. Whenever you use A2B, your Auxiliary system will be very vulnerable - a single Subsystem Targeting to Aux will without a doubt disable your Aux 100% of the time whenever someone sees you activating A2B as I note you do not carry Aux battery. Even when you don't use A2B, your Aux will still come under pressure from say an opponent like Queen Scora. As a result, it will greatly diminish the effectiveness of your PH, TSS, HE and A2D. And the boost A2B give to each subsystem will also be reduced.

    While your Hull Point is one of the highest of any Escort, well above average for Escorts, even higher than the Bug ship but this advantage is not going to be significant vs. some Science ships, like the Fleet Nebula. The latter too also has more hull points than the Bug Ship as it is the most tanky of all Science ships. Plus the fact that Science ship can compensate by having more Device slots than your Escorts, undoubtedly, you will encounter some Science ships who will wear the Jevonite Hardpoint and reinforce their hull to compensate for their lower base hull point based on the fact they have more device slots than you do. In other words, you will actually have less hull points overall than your nemesis, Ludavix and his ship. Coupled with the fact that your Escort can't use DEM - I don't see how this Escort can expect to do well against any Sci who knows what they are doing despite the major nerfs they got recently.

    BFAW is dangerous only when the ship also has DEM 2 or 3. BFAW without DEM is very manageable even though some of the premade only pvpers in this thread think they can't beat a noob so long as they use BFAW. :rolleyes: I think it says more about the fact they are accustomed to being flanked by 3 healers and can cry for heal every 10 seconds as opposed to learn the actual skills of proper pvping and surviving on their own. Perhaps you would consider offering those a seminar on PvP 101. :D
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    You really should perhaps learn how to pilot though... I mean we all know its only a matter of time before they either fix faw or you have no one worth shooting anyway. Really if they don't do it soon enough both could end up happening. :)

    I still don't get it if you want to fly an escort fly one... don't go and cheese it up with broken beam abilities.

    RCK knows how to fly, you can please stop being arrogant and condescending. The truth is your cannon Bug ship will die a lot quicker anytime you don't have a truck load of healers behind you patching you up.

    Of course you want to get the beams nerfed and claimed they are broken. Why am I not surprised? A Bug ship pilot with cannon fearmongering that if BFAW is not fixed, then a lot of people are going to quit PvP? As if DHC and CRF are not broken? :rolleyes: Some CRF hit for upward of 10K+ per shot without crit, you tell me this is not broken?

    In case you forgot, it's not BFAW that is bugged, it's BFAW with A2B and DEM. DEM being the most important piece of the puzzle because DEM will tap twice per shot while BFAW is active. Cryptic spent a good 1.5 - 2 months trying to fix the issue, which led to other bugs such as BFAW not resulting in any Critical hits. Your statement can't be more misleading because you know full well Cryptic tried to fix this bug and did yet make it sound as though they haven't got around to fix it yet, which is totally false and untrue. At the end, BFAW + DEM is still bugged I believe due to the double tapping that I am still noticing as a receiver of such attacks, in my combat log, but a Dev from Cryptic stated it is now finally fixed about 2 months ago, which means this issue will not be revisited again anytime soon. In the list of known issues posted by Cryptic after every patch note, you can see that they no longer mention BFAW as being a "known issue". In any event, this build posted by RCK does not use DEM. BFAW without DEM can't be bugged because there is no double tapping DEM.

    As for the power overcapping of beams, that's a debatable issue. I know for fact that using 5 beams, and despite having a Leech that adds about +28 weapon (3.5 X 8) power in addition to the existing 113 weapons power and the occasional A2B (+60 weapons power), my weapon power gets drained as low as 90 or so. If there is any serious overcapping that is making beams hitting harder than 125, I am not seeing it and wouldn't have used if I believe I am using a broken mechanic.

    Instead, I think if you are having trouble dealing with anyone who uses BFAW against you, perhaps you need to re-examine your build or consider attending a PvP seminar and learn how to play properly without needing several healers flanking you. Speaking from experience, I had no trouble taking down a Cruiser with 8 beams, BFAW, double A2B, DEM III, APO, RSP and Keel'el cleansing off sci debuffs every 15 seconds using a non-lock box / non-lobi ship on my own. Why? Unlike you, I am accustomed to survive in situations where I am seriously outnumbered by organized premades and where the matches are seriously lopsided and uneven. Anyone whose definition of PvP is a controlled environment in Arena with always equal number of opponents on both sides and no environment hazards to deal with, you will of course find it hard to survive without healers patching you up. No wonder you think any noob using BFAW is enough to scare you away.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    jangoak47 wrote: »

    But I'd say overall you build is solid and good, if beams work better than cannons for you than more power to you man, find a play style that works and run with it. I personally have no problems with A2B builds, it's a cheap and effective build and I think that's why it irks so many people, sure the low cool down RSP is TRIBBLE, but PvP is like 60% timing anyway.

    Anyways, good build, but have you considered trying it on a JHEC? I think it would he quite effective there, and you'd get nifty hangar pets! It'll cost you a pretty penny though.

    Steve.

    It's quite telling the Mods knowingly omit this. If this is the same Steve that I think I used to see in Kerrat, remind me to put him on ignore. Wait, I quit STO already so it doesn't matter.
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    take away the AtB and DEM and FAW all by itself is still nice and broke. my breen chell with 8 beams and 2 copies of pulling TBR is at least as if not more deadly then any AtB DEM cruiser. spire core and EPtW2 is plenty to keep power up too. its also debatable if any of the 7 weapon beam escort is matching the DPS of 8 weapon LTC tac, 4 tac console cruisers out there.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    take away the AtB and DEM and FAW all by itself is still nice and broke. my breen chell with 8 beams and 2 copies of pulling TBR is at least as if not more deadly then any AtB DEM cruiser. spire core and EPtW2 is plenty to keep power up too. its also debatable if any of the 7 weapon beam escort is matching the DPS of 8 weapon LTC tac, 4 tac console cruisers out there.

    TBR is useless against PH. It lasts 10 seconds only, and if you carry two copies, which require two Sci boff stations of Lt. and above, not a cheap investment. With its limited range of 5 KM, your opponent will be able to adapt quickly to your tactics. Also, note that TBR will go offline the moment your Aux is disabled and it has a 40 second CD. A combination of Viral Matrix 1 and Polarize Hull 1 will easily neutralize a double TBR build. You may have more success against Escorts but some Bug ships have adapted by using a dagger approach so they will never stay inside that 5KM range for your TBR to do its damage.

    I am skeptical the double TBR build + 8 beams is as powerful as the A2B DEM Cruiser. The reason being if what you say is true, there will be a lot more people using it. Then again, it's been a while since I left STO, I am not up to date with what's going on. In my own testing of using two tractor types against Cruiser, e.g. RCK who has one copy of PH, the result was not good. I also tested a while ago with another Eng Cruiser friend, the TBR turned out to be quite useless.
  • jangoak47jangoak47 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    Lol let me finish the build first then I'll come 1v1 you Rck ;)
    But all things aside, you are a good captain and I respect that :D keep on keeping on!

    Steve.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    TBR is useless against PH. It lasts 10 seconds only, and if you carry two copies, which require two Sci boff stations of Lt. and above, not a cheap investment. With its limited range of 5 KM, your opponent will be able to adapt quickly to your tactics. Also, note that TBR will go offline the moment your Aux is disabled and it has a 40 second CD. A combination of Viral Matrix 1 and Polarize Hull 1 will easily neutralize a double TBR build. You may have more success against Escorts but some Bug ships have adapted by using a dagger approach so they will never stay inside that 5KM range for your TBR to do its damage.

    I am skeptical the double TBR build + 8 beams is as powerful as the A2B DEM Cruiser. The reason being if what you say is true, there will be a lot more people using it. Then again, it's been a while since I left STO, I am not up to date with what's going on. In my own testing of using two tractor types against Cruiser, e.g. RCK who has one copy of PH, the result was not good. I also tested a while ago with another Eng Cruiser friend, the TBR turned out to be quite useless.

    who even uses PH? not that many cruisers or escorts, and especially not since ST no longer has cooldown issues with TT. DEM is not that great. its a tiny bit of extra hull damage thats on tactical ships with a COM eng its better then nothing. the pulling TBR gives my beams point blank damage with my and over 1000 hull damage per tic to up to 3 targets. i can even pull them out of range of friendly healers.

    its not like im choosing TBR over DEM, the build is being used on a breen chel, its got a TLC sci and ENS uni, enough for TSS, HE and 2xTBR. with just the LT eng i can run but 2 different EPt skills, but the COM and LT tac lets me cycle 2xTT, 2xFAW, and 2xAPO. vs a cruiser, it trades DEM for TBR, has 8 weapons, much greater maneuverability, and APO3 boosted damage.

    the point was that everyone loves lumping in AtB with the FAW problem, and giving DEM to much credit. i was doing some debunking. theres a lot of builds people dont use becase instead of learning how to play with their cookie cutters, and then advancing beyond them, they stick to what takes the least effort, and thats an AtB faw cruiser.
  • iskandusiskandus Member Posts: 1,062 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    who even uses PH? not that many cruisers or escorts, and especially not since ST no longer has cooldown issues with TT. DEM is not that great. its a tiny bit of extra hull damage thats on tactical ships with a COM eng its better then nothing. the pulling TBR gives my beams point blank damage with my and over 1000 hull damage per tic to up to 3 targets. i can even pull them out of range of friendly healers.

    I can't speak about how many cruisers/escorts use them. I know RCK carries it all the time and some Bug ship pilots too as a back up when their APO is on CD. Given the way loadouts can be switched quickly, an argument can be made anyone can easily adapt against your double TBR quickly.
    its not like im choosing TBR over DEM, the build is being used on a breen chel, its got a TLC sci and ENS uni, enough for TSS, HE and 2xTBR. with just the LT eng i can run but 2 different EPt skills, but the COM and LT tac lets me cycle 2xTT, 2xFAW, and 2xAPO. vs a cruiser, it trades DEM for TBR, has 8 weapons, much greater maneuverability, and APO3 boosted damage.

    The difference is you can neutralize TBR by the click of a button but you can't immunize against DEM by doing the same. Perhaps you can use it effectively, I am not questioning that. I am just not sold on its overall effectiveness because my own testing showed that those who know what they are doing, namely RCK, can easily ignore your TBR.
    the point was that everyone loves lumping in AtB with the FAW problem, and giving DEM to much credit. i was doing some debunking. theres a lot of builds people dont use becase instead of learning how to play with their cookie cutters, and then advancing beyond them, they stick to what takes the least effort, and thats an AtB faw cruiser.

    I commend you for using a non-cookie cutter build and think you should pvp RCK to validate your build's effectiveness. My money is on RCK however.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2014
    iskandus wrote: »
    RCK knows how to fly, you can please stop being arrogant and condescending. The truth is your cannon Bug ship will die a lot quicker anytime you don't have a truck load of healers behind you patching you up.

    I never said he didn't... if you read you will see where I complimented him and said from what I have seen of him he knows what he was doing. Which is why it annoys me to see him flying beam boats. For the same reason I used to give Ayatani a hard time for doing a stupid faw scort. FAW being busted has ZERO to do with DEM. Go do some parsing and count the DEM hits... you will notice it has an internal limit on the number of hits... which is why loading turrets over Dual cannons doesn't lead to more DEM dmg (assuming you stay in arc).

    I'm sorry but it doesn't take any talent to run around with RSP up 20% of the time... and faw the game to death. I am not saying Rck isn't talented the opposite is true in fact which is why it annoys me frankly.

    FAW is busted because it is 100% fire mode. There is no danger of loosing any DPS at all because every single shot is going to hit something. Yes I know we can talk about it being less focused and that is semi true... however it doesn't really take much effort to get into a situation where there are no bad targets. Fighting 3-5 people 20k away from any NPC targets in kerrat is one of them no doubt. Its why ANY power creep at all effects FAW disproportionately. A 10% item/gear/passive whatever it is will NOT get a full 10% on weapons that have smaller arcs, and from skills that have to use those arcs. FAW will gain the full amount possible from any creep item. What that means is even if they tune FAW so that it is 100% balanced to other weapon skills as soon as you start adding force multipliers the FAW dmg ends up >. Add a few months of creep after a tune up that does get it semi close and again FAW ends up >.

    There is no fixing FAW with out trashing its current mechanics. Its the mechanic itself that is the issue... and its why FAW has always been way to underpowered or far to Overpowered as it is now.

    Anyway... I was never knocking Rck as a pilot. The opposite hes a good pilot which is why it makes me sad to see him constantly loading up the FAW crutch.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
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