Little known fact, Sensor Analysis in its current form boosts drains. You can try it out in Holodeck easy with your friend or two instances on one PC. Equip the plasmonic leech on a sci ship and wait a minute. Your drain with a fully buffed sensor analysis is 33.3% better now.
"The buff improves all damage and power drain abilities used against the enemy target by 3.33% for every 6 seconds the Science Vessel maintains a target lock. The buff may stack up to 10 times for a total of 33.3% all damage and drain ability effectiveness after 60 seconds of maintained target lock."
FYI - I already went into tribble and read the tooltip under sensor analysis.
Right, I figured the info on STOwiki was from folks testing. I've got no tooltips for SA on Holo...oh wait, is it just a case that you were talking testing on Holo for that info and a - meh, saw your post - the tooltip on Tribble. I was wondering if there was some tooltip on Holo that showed anything currently...that was all.
Right, I figured the info on STOwiki was from folks testing. I've got no tooltips for SA on Holo...oh wait, is it just a case that you were talking testing on Holo for that info and a - meh, saw your post - the tooltip on Tribble. I was wondering if there was some tooltip on Holo that showed anything currently...that was all.
Do you know or have a link to the tribble character copy page? I can't find it.
(If it requires me to install arc I'm going to be so angry)
We will be bringing down the Tribble server for maintenance to apply a new update: ST.40.20140223a.12
Character Transfer Instructions:
Character transfers for Holodeck to Tribble may be accessed at the following link: Character Transfer
Sign in with your PWE account and the transfer options will be located at the bottom of the web page.
It's the same account you use to login to the forums. I guess they think folks are going to that site, logging in, and then accessing the forums. I just go straight to the forums. Oddly, while going to the arc site first logs you in for the forums, going to the forums doesn't log you into the arc site...meh.
Ok, tested sensor analysis extensively. Just one very annoying bug. The effect is lost as soon as I open fire, killing the bonus instantly. It stays on fine while I use science boff powers, but just one shot and the bonus goes instantly away.
Ok, tested sensor analysis extensively. Just one very annoying bug. The effect is lost as soon as I open fire, killing the bonus instantly. It stays on fine while I use science boff powers, but just one shot and the bonus goes instantly away.
Hey lucho, don't forget to post a bug report thread here detailing your observation. It'll make doubly sure it doesn't get lost in the ticket swarm.
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
Ability works. I posted in the tribble release notes that hawk is monitoring. I screwed up and put SA on one of my bound spots in the tray so when I fired I was clicking it over and over.
Ability works. I posted in the tribble release notes that hawk is monitoring. I screwed up and put SA on one of my bound spots in the tray so when I fired I was clicking it over and over.
A well and wonderful change for Sci Ships!
Haven't had a chance to play around with it, yet, but yay!
If you feel Keel'el's effect is well designed, please, for your own safety, be very careful around shallow pools of water.
The change we're testing de-couples sensor analysis from your hard target. It lets you pick a target to analyze by using a power on them, and does not require that they remain your target to build up stacks. It builds up to 30% effectiveness over 18 seconds, and it allows you to analyze allies as well as foes, giving you a healing bonus to analyzed allies.
The change is testing really well internally and should be on Tribble soon, which is why I'm comfortable telling you about it before it sees the light of day. Feedback and tuning on it will still be needed, of course, and as always in game development, this is not a promise that this will be what we end up doing.
Caveats: 1) The bonus still goes back to zero if the target disappears from you for any reason:.
A) Cloaks - Unless you can still see them once they cloak Romulan Rep T5 QSM
C) Jam Sensors
D) Subspace Integration Circuit (/facepalm)
E) Romulan Rep T4 Placate (double /facepalm)
Etc, etc...... Note: This is a hard clear. Once you can see the target and get it back within 10Km of yourself, you can click SA and start stacking again.
2) If you are farther away than 10Km for more than 45 seconds, the bonus gradually starts to go down to zero at the same rate it went up (5% every 3 seconds), so exactly one minute after the target has been more than 10Km away, it reaches zero.
Bug:
1) At a distance of 0.00km, you can't activate SA as it gets greyed out.
Conclusion:
1) Vapers and Romulan cloakers in general are still safe from this. It would take a ship with massive skill in sensors and the romulan ship to stay within range to keep it on them. Unsure if the Romulan singularity jump also breaks the SA hold on a ship.
2) The black goo console (Subspace Integration Console) also kills it which is a dissapointment as its a console people abuse left and right.
3) I have no problem with science skills trumping this (Jam sensors), that part is fine by me.
3) At least the Romulan T4 placate I don't think would break it as it doesn't really make the target disappear from the screen.
That's curious...
Cause I tend to look at them as sorts...
1) Confuse Placates
2) Perception Placates
Basically the "you can see them" and "you cannot see them"...which visually, the T4 placate does make the target disappear. They're gone. At least that's what happens for me - they vanish. Given the number of times and from the variety of people, I don't think they're all running Entertainer DOFFs. But you're saying that it doesn't make them disappear for you?
Leaves me wondering in which category it belongs in then...and thus...how the effect should work.
As an aside, during the mission Frozen...we get a lock on a T'varo that allows us to track it even though it does cloak. We can't see it, but we can track it. This in of itself would leave me to believe that in a sense, Sensor Analysis should avoid passive Perception Placates as well (as you said, something like Jam Sensors (which imho should actually jam sensors - you can't see anything) would break it - but cloaking isn't an attack on sensors)...meh, now I'm just rambling all over the place...never mind.
Basically the "you can see them" and "you cannot see them"...which visually, the T4 placate does make the target disappear. They're gone. At least that's what happens for me - they vanish. Given the number of times and from the variety of people, I don't think they're all running Entertainer DOFFs. But you're saying that it doesn't make them disappear for you?
Leaves me wondering in which category it belongs in then...and thus...how the effect should work.
As an aside, during the mission Frozen...we get a lock on a T'varo that allows us to track it even though it does cloak. We can't see it, but we can track it. This in of itself would leave me to believe that in a sense, Sensor Analysis should avoid passive Perception Placates as well (as you said, something like Jam Sensors (which imho should actually jam sensors - you can't see anything) would break it - but cloaking isn't an attack on sensors)...meh, now I'm just rambling all over the place...never mind.
The problem is I haven't been able to test if the Romulan placate breaks sensor analysis. I guess I could try using my tac toon and just fire with a single [ctrh]x3 turret until it procs to see if it works, it's just the bad graphics and horrible delays in Tribble make me thing twice about doing it.
If it does still pop it (heck, that so much still does pop it) would be kind of disappointing. Basically it drops it into a Friendly Buff and forget about it for Offense...
Bah, so many complaints about the Romulan T4 placate and they do nothing. After just a second of testing, it kicked off and turned of SA. Waited about 5 minutes for the placate to proc again, again it turns off the SA bonus. So sad now.
So in conclusion, Romulans are practically immune to SA with their super cloaks and extra high CrtH. Just completely disappointed.
We're looking at Romulan Rep placate independently of Sensor Analysis. The question I'd pose to you is, would it feel fair, as a cloaker, if you made it into stealth but an opponent could still see where you were due to their Sensor Analysis on you? I could see it either way, in this case.
Jeff "Adjudicator Hawk" Hamilton
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
The question I'd pose to you is, would it feel fair, as a cloaker, if you made it into stealth but an opponent could still see where you were due to their Sensor Analysis on you? I could see it either way, in this case.
Let me answer your question with another one, it is fair to blow in 1 mili second with out a chance to do something because the other player uses a Romulan ship with Proton Barrage? Romulans needs to suffer by something.. at this point they are immune to everything!
If is not SA, at least something.. a Romulan player, just because he chooses that sub-faction, should not play with impunity. Today they do (unless you have at least 2 cloakers hunters, witch is a waste of sci) and that is not fair..
We're looking at Romulan Rep placate independently of Sensor Analysis. The question I'd pose to you is, would it feel fair, as a cloaker, if you made it into stealth but an opponent could still see where you were due to their Sensor Analysis on you? I could see it either way, in this case.
I don't have anything against cloaking per-se, but Romulan's cloaks are a bit over the top. Why?
and they become pretty immune to SA, specially if they spec into the cloaking skill.
I have an idea to offset the Romulan boffs, Vulcan space trait, Superior Science Academy master. Them being related to Vulcans, it figures they would balance each other. Increases sensors and gives a boost to offensive science skills.
Romulan boffs get: (Extra tac damage and cloaking)
Vulcan boffs get: (Extra science effectiveness and sensors)
Editing to clarify:
Vulcan boffs get the amount of sensors skill that equally offsets the Romulan cloak bonus.
Vulcan boffs get their science skills boosted as a counterpart to the Romulans tactical boost.
I think Astrophysicist as a boff trait kind of incorporates both, but I don't know the sensor to stealth needed for once to cancel the other.
We're looking at Romulan Rep placate independently of Sensor Analysis. The question I'd pose to you is, would it feel fair, as a cloaker, if you made it into stealth but an opponent could still see where you were due to their Sensor Analysis on you? I could see it either way, in this case.
I like the concept as it plays out in that mission I mentioned. You can't see the Reman Warbird - but you're still tracking it. So in a sense, the Sensor Analysis would be "good enough" to continue building - but it wouldn't be good enough to see the cloaker.
IMO, it would add an interesting dynamic to gameplay without adding to a system that I find personally is against the cloaker enough already. Basically, they'd just know if the cloaker was still within 10km or not and the cloaker would know that the Sci is waiting for them...do they retreat outside of 10km and return, do they risk blipping or decloaking within range - added into the if it's a Sci in that Sci, will they Scan?
Basically that it would add something if it worked that way, but if it actually allowed the person in the Sci to see them...it would basically be the death of stealth.
I like the concept as it plays out in that mission I mentioned. You can't see the Reman Warbird - but you're still tracking it. So in a sense, the Sensor Analysis would be "good enough" to continue building - but it wouldn't be good enough to see the cloaker.
IMO, it would add an interesting dynamic to gameplay without adding to a system that I find personally is against the cloaker enough already. Basically, they'd just know if the cloaker was still within 10km or not and the cloaker would know that the Sci is waiting for them...do they retreat outside of 10km and return, do they risk blipping or decloaking within range - added into the if it's a Sci in that Sci, will they Scan?
Basically that it would add something if it worked that way, but if it actually allowed the person in the Sci to see them...it would basically be the death of stealth.
Lol, I do like your idea even better.
By the way, I don't see the disadvantage of Romulan cloaks combined with singularity powers. They all just singularity jumP+Rep 5 cloak or outright quickly cloak and zoom away. The Scimitars are the only Romulan ship I've been able to keep on my sensors sometimes.
We're looking at Romulan Rep placate independently of Sensor Analysis. The question I'd pose to you is, would it feel fair, as a cloaker, if you made it into stealth but an opponent could still see where you were due to their Sensor Analysis on you? I could see it either way, in this case.
I don't think its fair as a cloaker!
If I choose to cloak to remove it so be it. You have forced me to cloak and leave the battle, im not clear if its removed the instance i press cloak? If it does i certainly dont agree with that, since a sci can add many anti cloak measures they should be able to chase me down with SA still intact.
That said, ROM placate shouldn't break it under any circumstance, nor should black goo. I'm more than OK with jam sensors since it makes perfect sense.
and they become pretty immune to SA, specially if they spec into the cloaking skill.
I have an idea to offset the Romulan boffs, Vulcan space trait, Superior Science Academy master. Them being related to Vulcans, it figures they would balance each other. Increases sensors and gives a boost to offensive science skills.
Romulan boffs get: (Extra tac damage and cloaking)
Vulcan boffs get: (Extra science effectiveness and sensors)
Um... deep breath.
Romulan Cloaks are +55 Stealth Value better than non-Romluan Cloaks. That's just over 1km of Stealth.
That Infiltrator that you linked - it's not each. Keep in mind, that's Stealth Skill and not Stealth Value. Divide that number in half...that's the bonus to Stealth Value. And...it doesn't stack. If you're a Reman Captain with Infiltrator, you get your +200 Starship Stealth/+100 Stealth Value...and that's it, whether you've got 5x Sub (+150 Skill/+75 Value) or 5x Naus (+150 Skill/+75 Value)...you're only getting your amount. Even if you weren't a Reman Captain, and you had a single Sup Infil BOFF - that's still all you get. The one-shot...no stacking. Same with Sub/Pirate...only one counts.
Base Stealth starts at 4925 with 0 Aux/0 Skill. Base Perception starts at 5000 with 0 Aux/0 Skill.
A Reman in a Warbird with 125 Aux and say 8.8 Skill from a KHG Deflector is looking at 5184.4 Stealth. Remember, that Starship Stealth skill only adds half the value to the Stealth Value. So 99 Starship Stealth is only 49.5 Stealth Value.
Even a non-Sci, running the Jem Mk XI/XI Deflector, EPtA1+ (EPtA1 not only provides a boost to Aux which can help Stealth Detection, but it also provides +3km or +150 Perception), Tachyon Detection Field (which can be used from a Fed T'varo while cloaked), Tachyon Detection Grid, Tractor Beam Repulsors, Charged Particle Burst (which with AtB can be used to decloak while ignoring the shield aspect), getting caught in the AoE of Scrambled Sensors or AMS will reveal you (including the Scramble from Drones or the AMS from the Gal), Gravity Wells, etc, etc, etc...
...just because folks want to run 0 Aux and put no points into Sensors doesn't make Stealth anywhere near over the top. It takes little effort to ruin completely whatever somebody trying to Stealth is doing.
It's kind of sad, but the cloak is the second only to MES for being meh. QSM's a better cloak. Heck, the Alpha Deception console...that gives a cloak of 7054.4 for 30s if nothing pops the lure.
There used to be a time that a Snooper had to go all out...but Stealth's been nerfed into oblivion.
Romulan Cloaks are +55 Stealth Value better than non-Romluan Cloaks. That's just over 1km of Stealth.
That Infiltrator that you linked - it's not each. Keep in mind, that's Stealth Skill and not Stealth Value. Divide that number in half...that's the bonus to Stealth Value. And...it doesn't stack. If you're a Reman Captain with Infiltrator, you get your +200 Starship Stealth/+100 Stealth Value...and that's it, whether you've got 5x Sub (+150 Skill/+75 Value) or 5x Naus (+150 Skill/+75 Value)...you're only getting your amount. Even if you weren't a Reman Captain, and you had a single Sup Infil BOFF - that's still all you get. The one-shot...no stacking. Same with Sub/Pirate...only one counts.
Base Stealth starts at 4925 with 0 Aux/0 Skill. Base Perception starts at 5000 with 0 Aux/0 Skill.
A Reman in a Warbird with 125 Aux and say 8.8 Skill from a KHG Deflector is looking at 5184.4 Stealth. Remember, that Starship Stealth skill only adds half the value to the Stealth Value. So 99 Starship Stealth is only 49.5 Stealth Value.
Even a non-Sci, running the Jem Mk XI/XI Deflector, EPtA1+ (EPtA1 not only provides a boost to Aux which can help Stealth Detection, but it also provides +3km or +150 Perception), Tachyon Detection Field (which can be used from a Fed T'varo while cloaked), Tachyon Detection Grid, Tractor Beam Repulsors, Charged Particle Burst (which with AtB can be used to decloak while ignoring the shield aspect), getting caught in the AoE of Scrambled Sensors or AMS will reveal you (including the Scramble from Drones or the AMS from the Gal), Gravity Wells, etc, etc, etc...
...just because folks want to run 0 Aux and put no points into Sensors doesn't make Stealth anywhere near over the top. It takes little effort to ruin completely whatever somebody trying to Stealth is doing.
It's kind of sad, but the cloak is the second only to MES for being meh. QSM's a better cloak. Heck, the Alpha Deception console...that gives a cloak of 7054.4 for 30s if nothing pops the lure.
There used to be a time that a Snooper had to go all out...but Stealth's been nerfed into oblivion.
I run my ship with Aux at 135, Jem Deflector MK XII and specced 6 points nto the sensors skill, it's still a pain to chase cloaked Romulans in general.
To Hawk - Did you see the bug about SA greying out and not being able to be clicked at 0.00km distance?
By the way, I don't see the disadvantage of Romulan cloaks combined with singularity powers. They all just singularity jumP+Rep 5 cloak or outright quickly cloak and zoom away. The Scimitars are the only Romulan ship I've been able to keep on my sensors sometimes.
Building Singularity Charge actually reduces Stealth Value and makes them easier to see. At 5 Singularity pips, you're eating a -400 Stealth Value Debuff.
Singularity Jump for the Accuracy Debuff, eat any targetable torpedoes that may have been fired with a spread that would not miss or just targetable torpedoes in general, to put some distance between you and the target, perhaps with them being slowed down by the grav from the Singularity...and then hitting QSM because QSM's a much better cloak than they've got outside of having the Feign Death console.
You can hit them with a DOFF'd VM and they might get away, but you'll see them soon enough. ET doesn't clear a DOFF'd VM. So when the VM comes back and kills their Aux...tada, there they are. Also, the VM like almost all Sci abilities is 100% to hit.
It's extremely easy, far too easy, to wreck cloakers. It used to take a dedicated build that left you vulnerable, but that was over a year back.
Building Singularity Charge actually reduces Stealth Value and makes them easier to see. At 5 Singularity pips, you're eating a -400 Stealth Value Debuff.
Singularity Jump for the Accuracy Debuff, eat any targetable torpedoes that may have been fired with a spread that would not miss or just targetable torpedoes in general, to put some distance between you and the target, perhaps with them being slowed down by the grav from the Singularity...and then hitting QSM because QSM's a much better cloak than they've got outside of having the Feign Death console.
You can hit them with a DOFF'd VM and they might get away, but you'll see them soon enough. ET doesn't clear a DOFF'd VM. So when the VM comes back and kills their Aux...tada, there they are. Also, the VM like almost all Sci abilities is 100% to hit.
It's extremely easy, far too easy, to wreck cloakers. It used to take a dedicated build that left you vulnerable, but that was over a year back.
Might have to use the Energy Siphon system disable doff stacked 3x (If the stacking ever gets fixed, hopefully S9 since the bug was acknowledged by a dev) and target Aux systems 3 when I can see any Romulans to bring them down then.
That being said, your idea of keeping SA up even if they're cloaked seems good, and just have it work like it does now, start counting down to zero if they fly 10km away or more for more than 45 sec. You still can't see them, but SA still is working.
We're looking at Romulan Rep placate independently of Sensor Analysis. The question I'd pose to you is, would it feel fair, as a cloaker, if you made it into stealth but an opponent could still see where you were due to their Sensor Analysis on you? I could see it either way, in this case.
How clearly do they see? If they can kind of see where the ship is, but are less accurate in hitting the ship then when uncloaked, that would I think fit into the idea of submarine warfare the cloaking was originally designed after for the Star Trek universe.
I run my ship with Aux at 135, Jem Deflector MK XII and specced 6 points nto the sensors skill, it's still a pain to chase cloaked Romulans in general.
84 Sensors, 135 Aux, Jem Mk XII...
You should be running somewhere between 5259.54 to 5270.04 base Perception (can't remember the modifier for the Jem Mk XII, just what vonamicus listed for the Mk XI - thus the range with the first number being the Mk XI)...
If you were to add the Astrophysicist trait and EPtA1, you're numbers would go from 5259.54/5270.04 to 5418.89/5430.64...
Forgot that the Reman Infil is only +150, not the +200 that STOwiki lists. It's just regular Infil and not Sup Infil. You'd need a Sup Infil BOFF for the +200 (additional +25 Stealth Value).
The typical Rom/Rem/RAlien with Sub/Infil(non-Sup)/Pirate and 125 Aux is going to have 5180 Stealth.
5418.89 - 5180 = 4.8km perception distance...
That's without using Sensor Scan, without using TDF or TDG. That's just with EPtA1. It's 3.3km without the EPtA1. It's more with EPtA2 or EPtA3. Keep in mind, although EPtA says it boosts Stealth as well, it neither boosts Starship Stealth Skill nor the Stealth Value...basically it doesn't appear to do anything.
And the question typically arises, why should the one guy have to put 6 pts in Starship Sensors and the other guy not have to put points into Starship Stealth...?
Pts in Starship Stealth only affect Stealth Value. Pts in Starship Sensors not only affect Perception/Stealth Detection, but it adds resists for Confuse/Placates...along the lines of Subsystem Repair/Inertial Dampeners - it reduces the duration. So folks are going to want that 3-6 anyway to deal with the various Confuses/Placates being tossed around. The Stealth Detection is a bonus...
Starship Stealth is one of the worst skills out there, if not the worst.
But back that that 4.8km...with them blipping about, you can move into range - get close - hit up the Sensor Scan - and - they're toast.
Unless as I mentioned in the other post, they take even further steps to try to get away like bouncing with Singularity Jump or tossing out Warp Shadows...hitting QSM - using Feign - Jamming you, etc, etc, etc...
...but again, you can just VM them and it's pretty much over for them.
We're looking at Romulan Rep placate independently of Sensor Analysis. The question I'd pose to you is, would it feel fair, as a cloaker, if you made it into stealth but an opponent could still see where you were due to their Sensor Analysis on you? I could see it either way, in this case.
Hm. Blip on the map, but not actual stealth vision? That I could actually live with, as a cloaker. That'd be fine. Considering that it'd require a sci ship to keep its focus on me and they'd still need CPB or Sensor Scan or something to decloak me.
As a sci/sci, this would be awesome. Potentially a more awesome buff to sci/sci than secondary deflectors, in terms of being an asset to the team.
As an aside...but yeah, Venture Nebula. Course, that would have been more awesome last year when I still had Fed toons...but I still liked the idea of a Venture-R, 2x Venture-X, and 2x Venture-N's flying around.
The question I'd pose to you is, would it feel fair, as a cloaker, if you made it into stealth but an opponent could still see where you were due to their Sensor Analysis on you? I could see it either way, in this case.
It would be best if you use the out-of-range decay function as the default, instead of the hard clear.
The only thing that should give a hard clear is jam sensors, an in-rp counter to the ability.
It would be very good if using sensor analysis gave a bonus to cloak visibilty range (say 50% or thereabouts). Sensor analysis should continue running while you can see them, starts to decay when they go out of range. Cloak should not be a free do-anything card, especially if you are against a buffed snooper who has probably put more skill points and consoles into it than the cloaker.
I knew I forgot one piece of feedback, glad I was snooping the PvP channel.
Anonymous quote from a famous vaper: "It's a boon for cloakers stalking sci. Now i get a heads up if a sci can target me"
The animation added (The huge diamond like debuff animation on the target) each time sensor analysis ticks is basically a big "Hey I can see you sign" to cloakers they can be seen. It would be better if it were removed.
Comments
Right, I figured the info on STOwiki was from folks testing. I've got no tooltips for SA on Holo...oh wait, is it just a case that you were talking testing on Holo for that info and a - meh, saw your post - the tooltip on Tribble. I was wondering if there was some tooltip on Holo that showed anything currently...that was all.
Do you know or have a link to the tribble character copy page? I can't find it.
(If it requires me to install arc I'm going to be so angry)
It's the same account you use to login to the forums. I guess they think folks are going to that site, logging in, and then accessing the forums. I just go straight to the forums. Oddly, while going to the arc site first logs you in for the forums, going to the forums doesn't log you into the arc site...meh.
Hey lucho, don't forget to post a bug report thread here detailing your observation. It'll make doubly sure it doesn't get lost in the ticket swarm.
A well and wonderful change for Sci Ships!
Haven't had a chance to play around with it, yet, but yay!
Caveats:
1) The bonus still goes back to zero if the target disappears from you for any reason:.
A) Cloaks - Unless you can still see them once they cloak
C) Jam Sensors
D) Subspace Integration Circuit (/facepalm)
E) Romulan Rep T4 Placate (double /facepalm)
Etc, etc......
Note: This is a hard clear. Once you can see the target and get it back within 10Km of yourself, you can click SA and start stacking again.
2) If you are farther away than 10Km for more than 45 seconds, the bonus gradually starts to go down to zero at the same rate it went up (5% every 3 seconds), so exactly one minute after the target has been more than 10Km away, it reaches zero.
Bug:
1) At a distance of 0.00km, you can't activate SA as it gets greyed out.
Conclusion:
1) Vapers and Romulan cloakers in general are still safe from this. It would take a ship with massive skill in sensors and the romulan ship to stay within range to keep it on them. Unsure if the Romulan singularity jump also breaks the SA hold on a ship.
2) The black goo console (Subspace Integration Console) also kills it which is a dissapointment as its a console people abuse left and right.
3) I have no problem with science skills trumping this (Jam sensors), that part is fine by me.
That's curious...
Cause I tend to look at them as sorts...
1) Confuse Placates
2) Perception Placates
Basically the "you can see them" and "you cannot see them"...which visually, the T4 placate does make the target disappear. They're gone. At least that's what happens for me - they vanish. Given the number of times and from the variety of people, I don't think they're all running Entertainer DOFFs. But you're saying that it doesn't make them disappear for you?
Leaves me wondering in which category it belongs in then...and thus...how the effect should work.
As an aside, during the mission Frozen...we get a lock on a T'varo that allows us to track it even though it does cloak. We can't see it, but we can track it. This in of itself would leave me to believe that in a sense, Sensor Analysis should avoid passive Perception Placates as well (as you said, something like Jam Sensors (which imho should actually jam sensors - you can't see anything) would break it - but cloaking isn't an attack on sensors)...meh, now I'm just rambling all over the place...never mind.
The problem is I haven't been able to test if the Romulan placate breaks sensor analysis. I guess I could try using my tac toon and just fire with a single [ctrh]x3 turret until it procs to see if it works, it's just the bad graphics and horrible delays in Tribble make me thing twice about doing it.
So in conclusion, Romulans are practically immune to SA with their super cloaks and extra high CrtH. Just completely disappointed.
Systems Designer - Cryptic Studios
Twitter: @JeffAHamilton
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Good to know.
Let me answer your question with another one, it is fair to blow in 1 mili second with out a chance to do something because the other player uses a Romulan ship with Proton Barrage? Romulans needs to suffer by something.. at this point they are immune to everything!
If is not SA, at least something.. a Romulan player, just because he chooses that sub-faction, should not play with impunity. Today they do (unless you have at least 2 cloakers hunters, witch is a waste of sci) and that is not fair..
Sorry for bad english.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
I don't have anything against cloaking per-se, but Romulan's cloaks are a bit over the top. Why?
Well they have this:
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Trait:_Infiltrator (+200 stealth each)
then you add this on top:
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Trait:_Romulan_Operative/boff (CtrH + CrtD + cloaking speed bonus)
and they become pretty immune to SA, specially if they spec into the cloaking skill.
I have an idea to offset the Romulan boffs, Vulcan space trait, Superior Science Academy master. Them being related to Vulcans, it figures they would balance each other. Increases sensors and gives a boost to offensive science skills.
Romulan boffs get: (Extra tac damage and cloaking)
Vulcan boffs get: (Extra science effectiveness and sensors)
Editing to clarify:
Vulcan boffs get the amount of sensors skill that equally offsets the Romulan cloak bonus.
Vulcan boffs get their science skills boosted as a counterpart to the Romulans tactical boost.
I think Astrophysicist as a boff trait kind of incorporates both, but I don't know the sensor to stealth needed for once to cancel the other.
I like the concept as it plays out in that mission I mentioned. You can't see the Reman Warbird - but you're still tracking it. So in a sense, the Sensor Analysis would be "good enough" to continue building - but it wouldn't be good enough to see the cloaker.
IMO, it would add an interesting dynamic to gameplay without adding to a system that I find personally is against the cloaker enough already. Basically, they'd just know if the cloaker was still within 10km or not and the cloaker would know that the Sci is waiting for them...do they retreat outside of 10km and return, do they risk blipping or decloaking within range - added into the if it's a Sci in that Sci, will they Scan?
Basically that it would add something if it worked that way, but if it actually allowed the person in the Sci to see them...it would basically be the death of stealth.
Lol, I do like your idea even better.
By the way, I don't see the disadvantage of Romulan cloaks combined with singularity powers. They all just singularity jumP+Rep 5 cloak or outright quickly cloak and zoom away. The Scimitars are the only Romulan ship I've been able to keep on my sensors sometimes.
I don't think its fair as a cloaker!
If I choose to cloak to remove it so be it. You have forced me to cloak and leave the battle, im not clear if its removed the instance i press cloak? If it does i certainly dont agree with that, since a sci can add many anti cloak measures they should be able to chase me down with SA still intact.
That said, ROM placate shouldn't break it under any circumstance, nor should black goo. I'm more than OK with jam sensors since it makes perfect sense.
Um... deep breath.
Romulan Cloaks are +55 Stealth Value better than non-Romluan Cloaks. That's just over 1km of Stealth.
That Infiltrator that you linked - it's not each. Keep in mind, that's Stealth Skill and not Stealth Value. Divide that number in half...that's the bonus to Stealth Value. And...it doesn't stack. If you're a Reman Captain with Infiltrator, you get your +200 Starship Stealth/+100 Stealth Value...and that's it, whether you've got 5x Sub (+150 Skill/+75 Value) or 5x Naus (+150 Skill/+75 Value)...you're only getting your amount. Even if you weren't a Reman Captain, and you had a single Sup Infil BOFF - that's still all you get. The one-shot...no stacking. Same with Sub/Pirate...only one counts.
Base Stealth starts at 4925 with 0 Aux/0 Skill. Base Perception starts at 5000 with 0 Aux/0 Skill.
A Reman in a Warbird with 125 Aux and say 8.8 Skill from a KHG Deflector is looking at 5184.4 Stealth. Remember, that Starship Stealth skill only adds half the value to the Stealth Value. So 99 Starship Stealth is only 49.5 Stealth Value.
Even a non-Sci, running the Jem Mk XI/XI Deflector, EPtA1+ (EPtA1 not only provides a boost to Aux which can help Stealth Detection, but it also provides +3km or +150 Perception), Tachyon Detection Field (which can be used from a Fed T'varo while cloaked), Tachyon Detection Grid, Tractor Beam Repulsors, Charged Particle Burst (which with AtB can be used to decloak while ignoring the shield aspect), getting caught in the AoE of Scrambled Sensors or AMS will reveal you (including the Scramble from Drones or the AMS from the Gal), Gravity Wells, etc, etc, etc...
...just because folks want to run 0 Aux and put no points into Sensors doesn't make Stealth anywhere near over the top. It takes little effort to ruin completely whatever somebody trying to Stealth is doing.
It's kind of sad, but the cloak is the second only to MES for being meh. QSM's a better cloak. Heck, the Alpha Deception console...that gives a cloak of 7054.4 for 30s if nothing pops the lure.
There used to be a time that a Snooper had to go all out...but Stealth's been nerfed into oblivion.
I run my ship with Aux at 135, Jem Deflector MK XII and specced 6 points nto the sensors skill, it's still a pain to chase cloaked Romulans in general.
To Hawk - Did you see the bug about SA greying out and not being able to be clicked at 0.00km distance?
Building Singularity Charge actually reduces Stealth Value and makes them easier to see. At 5 Singularity pips, you're eating a -400 Stealth Value Debuff.
Singularity Jump for the Accuracy Debuff, eat any targetable torpedoes that may have been fired with a spread that would not miss or just targetable torpedoes in general, to put some distance between you and the target, perhaps with them being slowed down by the grav from the Singularity...and then hitting QSM because QSM's a much better cloak than they've got outside of having the Feign Death console.
You can hit them with a DOFF'd VM and they might get away, but you'll see them soon enough. ET doesn't clear a DOFF'd VM. So when the VM comes back and kills their Aux...tada, there they are. Also, the VM like almost all Sci abilities is 100% to hit.
It's extremely easy, far too easy, to wreck cloakers. It used to take a dedicated build that left you vulnerable, but that was over a year back.
Might have to use the Energy Siphon system disable doff stacked 3x (If the stacking ever gets fixed, hopefully S9 since the bug was acknowledged by a dev) and target Aux systems 3 when I can see any Romulans to bring them down then.
That being said, your idea of keeping SA up even if they're cloaked seems good, and just have it work like it does now, start counting down to zero if they fly 10km away or more for more than 45 sec. You still can't see them, but SA still is working.
How clearly do they see? If they can kind of see where the ship is, but are less accurate in hitting the ship then when uncloaked, that would I think fit into the idea of submarine warfare the cloaking was originally designed after for the Star Trek universe.
Maybe Cryptic should reboot the Nebula.
84 Sensors, 135 Aux, Jem Mk XII...
You should be running somewhere between 5259.54 to 5270.04 base Perception (can't remember the modifier for the Jem Mk XII, just what vonamicus listed for the Mk XI - thus the range with the first number being the Mk XI)...
If you were to add the Astrophysicist trait and EPtA1, you're numbers would go from 5259.54/5270.04 to 5418.89/5430.64...
Forgot that the Reman Infil is only +150, not the +200 that STOwiki lists. It's just regular Infil and not Sup Infil. You'd need a Sup Infil BOFF for the +200 (additional +25 Stealth Value).
The typical Rom/Rem/RAlien with Sub/Infil(non-Sup)/Pirate and 125 Aux is going to have 5180 Stealth.
5418.89 - 5180 = 4.8km perception distance...
That's without using Sensor Scan, without using TDF or TDG. That's just with EPtA1. It's 3.3km without the EPtA1. It's more with EPtA2 or EPtA3. Keep in mind, although EPtA says it boosts Stealth as well, it neither boosts Starship Stealth Skill nor the Stealth Value...basically it doesn't appear to do anything.
And the question typically arises, why should the one guy have to put 6 pts in Starship Sensors and the other guy not have to put points into Starship Stealth...?
Pts in Starship Stealth only affect Stealth Value. Pts in Starship Sensors not only affect Perception/Stealth Detection, but it adds resists for Confuse/Placates...along the lines of Subsystem Repair/Inertial Dampeners - it reduces the duration. So folks are going to want that 3-6 anyway to deal with the various Confuses/Placates being tossed around. The Stealth Detection is a bonus...
Starship Stealth is one of the worst skills out there, if not the worst.
But back that that 4.8km...with them blipping about, you can move into range - get close - hit up the Sensor Scan - and - they're toast.
Unless as I mentioned in the other post, they take even further steps to try to get away like bouncing with Singularity Jump or tossing out Warp Shadows...hitting QSM - using Feign - Jamming you, etc, etc, etc...
...but again, you can just VM them and it's pretty much over for them.
Hm. Blip on the map, but not actual stealth vision? That I could actually live with, as a cloaker. That'd be fine. Considering that it'd require a sci ship to keep its focus on me and they'd still need CPB or Sensor Scan or something to decloak me.
As a sci/sci, this would be awesome. Potentially a more awesome buff to sci/sci than secondary deflectors, in terms of being an asset to the team.
As an aside...but yeah, Venture Nebula. Course, that would have been more awesome last year when I still had Fed toons...but I still liked the idea of a Venture-R, 2x Venture-X, and 2x Venture-N's flying around.
It would be best if you use the out-of-range decay function as the default, instead of the hard clear.
The only thing that should give a hard clear is jam sensors, an in-rp counter to the ability.
It would be very good if using sensor analysis gave a bonus to cloak visibilty range (say 50% or thereabouts). Sensor analysis should continue running while you can see them, starts to decay when they go out of range. Cloak should not be a free do-anything card, especially if you are against a buffed snooper who has probably put more skill points and consoles into it than the cloaker.
Anonymous quote from a famous vaper: "It's a boon for cloakers stalking sci. Now i get a heads up if a sci can target me"
The animation added (The huge diamond like debuff animation on the target) each time sensor analysis ticks is basically a big "Hey I can see you sign" to cloakers they can be seen. It would be better if it were removed.