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OPvPvE Arenas as the future of PvP in STO?
fatman592
Member Posts: 1,207 Arc User
After adding my 2ec to Naz's recent guest dev blog, I got to thinking about the future of PvP in STO. My focus here is on how to make PvP accessible, desirable to play, and how to gain the necessary metrics for such a venture to be profitable for the company.
***WARNING, huge wall of text ahead, there's a TL;DR version at the bottom.***
First and foremost, I'm not going to rehash all the problems within the current PvP environment, all one has to do is look through this section of the forums. But there is one problem to rule them all and overcoming this problem is what could, in my opinion, get the masses to PvP. This requires understanding the mindset of the majority of players and the essential concept of the game.
The Problem:
STO is a single player game set in an MMO environment. The problem, stated simply, is that the game is made to make everyone Kirk. Kirk here, Kirk there, pew pew, look cool, get slave girls, Kirk everywhere. Even ESTFs feel like you're playing with a team of NPCs. No one talks, everyone just gets in done in the name of the grind.
However, once you enter a PvP environment, you are forced to confront something Kirk never had to - that you aren't the best, coolest captain out there. While it may be unfun for some to die, I think the vast majority of players could care less if they die. What makes the queues unfun is that you are singled out by a team, hit with all manner of spam, stacking debuffs and obliterated without a chance to do anything.
The only response to this is to put your life in the hands of your teamates (dedicated healers) and hope you come out okay. This never happened in Trek to my knowledge. Even in fleet situations, it was just about mass pew-pewing. So the following is an attempt to bring things more in line with what we see in the shows/movies and the main underpinning of the game, you are the only captain and the only ship that matters.
How do we bridge this huge gulf between Kirk and the queues?
The Solution:
I propose a new version of Ker'rat. Call it, Neutral Zone Patrol (or not), make it similar to the Dyson Zones. Put NPCs like freighters going about shipping supplies between stations, which could function as cap and hold points like in the Dyson Contested zone. Make these stations have NPCs that attack and defend and make capping and holding these points a repeatable objective. And get rid of the stupid zone reset.
To prevent teamwork or Fed Ball/Gank Squad from getting out of had some things will need to be done. Primarily, prevent effect stacking. Any given ship can only have 1 of any given debuff applied to it at one time. If stacks of sensor scans, FoMM, or several tyken's rifts or cheese console effects are present, make it so only one applies at a given time. In addition, create an immunity from these powers, for the same amount of time as the original cool-down of the original applied ability. This prevents teams from chaining abilities and would encourage spreading out your abilities to different targets.
Vapers and overwhelming firepower can be mitigated (at least when on defense) by using NPCs. Give all friendly controlled bases an innate tachyon detection grid, along with tractor and torps. Make this applicable to both KDF and Fed controlled bases giving defenders the advantage. However, the advantage will be with attackers on shipping as there should be limited NPC support.
There should be an spawn zone that is totally inaccessible by the enemy faction. Move the Fleet Starbase into this zone at the spawn point to not only increase traffic, but provide useful services. Or if they don't want to move the Fleet Starbase, create a new holding called a "Forward Base" or "Neutral Zone Listening Post". Give it everything you need to conduct business. Adding some new fleet gear and ships to this holding which could be PvP oriented would be nice.
The zone needs to have instances separated by ranking. At base level, all gear should have PvP points. Fleet and lockbox items having the highest points. Upon implementation, each player will start at only the level of their gear. However, making a kill of a player will add to your score. A sliding scale of points could be awarded based how many more points your opponent had versus your point level. And conversely, if you kill a player lower than you, no points would be awarded. This may have the effect of increasing challenges, thus increasing 1v1 PvPing. Getting points may become a grind unto itself, adding another attraction (for a certain set of players) to PvP.
The ranking/point system would also provide an innate PvP training. If you accumulate enough points to move up the ladder to the next level instance, you learn to fight new, better opponents and move up again. Down the road, new players wouldn't be plunged into the fire and would have a controlled way of gaining experience.
The Metrics:
It's very important to give solid rewards for playing in this zone. Without that, no matter how good the zone is, there will be no metrics to be able to show success. Metrics are what's required to get an investment in PvP. So have a place that gives anyone an opportunity to PvP in an environment with objectives and rewards, and people will flock to this zone.
Adding PvP oriented gear and ships (revamped Aquarius please), a new fleet holding and/or Fed/KDF war rep = huge dilithium sink. There's all manner of monetizing which can go into such a zone, while avoiding the stigma of PvP and the queues as a whole.
The Problems of my "Solution":
All that said, there will still be some measure of teamwork available to players. Shot calling will probably clog up zone chat, though hopefully mass reporting of spam would help. And the underlying game mechanics would be problematic. But overall, I think theses changes may alleviate feelings of futility when attempting PvP.
The biggest problem I can see with this suggestion is simply the numbers. KDF is far outnumbered by Feds. I'm not sure how to deal with this, perhaps a buff to the NPCs on the KDF side based on whatever numbers are in the zone at any given time. That seems too complicated. More rewards for playing in the zone as KDF? Might work, I don't know though.
And of course, there are the unbalanced game mechanics. But hopefully with the rank system, vapers and A2B can be kept out of lower tier zones simply based on their base points.
In Summary:
Make part two of Step Between the Stars cause the war to heat up, setting up for this new zone. Peace is boring, moar pew pew!
The TL;DR version:
- Teamwork is OP. Abandon the quest to get the masses to join the queues and set up OPvPvE environments devoid of teams and team-based exploits. Which I think many can agree is the source of PvP frustration.
- Create a system based on your build which gives you a rating, place players into instances with similar ratings, lock gear/loadouts from being switched in zone (coincidentally this prevents console switching exploit).
- Give useful rewards, Fleet Marks or a choice of marks package would probably be most popular.
- It's a lot of content and I'd expect just this suggestion to be a x.5 season or full season by itself. But, if you build it, I believe they will come.
- I'm not saying get rid of the queues, most of you will probably still queue. And communities like Tyler Durden and PvP Bootcamp will still be very important for PvP. But a zone like this, with mass appeal would get some interest and metrics - and who knows, more PvP content.
Thoughts? Flaming? Never going to happen? OP is OP plz nerf?
***WARNING, huge wall of text ahead, there's a TL;DR version at the bottom.***
First and foremost, I'm not going to rehash all the problems within the current PvP environment, all one has to do is look through this section of the forums. But there is one problem to rule them all and overcoming this problem is what could, in my opinion, get the masses to PvP. This requires understanding the mindset of the majority of players and the essential concept of the game.
The Problem:
STO is a single player game set in an MMO environment. The problem, stated simply, is that the game is made to make everyone Kirk. Kirk here, Kirk there, pew pew, look cool, get slave girls, Kirk everywhere. Even ESTFs feel like you're playing with a team of NPCs. No one talks, everyone just gets in done in the name of the grind.
However, once you enter a PvP environment, you are forced to confront something Kirk never had to - that you aren't the best, coolest captain out there. While it may be unfun for some to die, I think the vast majority of players could care less if they die. What makes the queues unfun is that you are singled out by a team, hit with all manner of spam, stacking debuffs and obliterated without a chance to do anything.
The only response to this is to put your life in the hands of your teamates (dedicated healers) and hope you come out okay. This never happened in Trek to my knowledge. Even in fleet situations, it was just about mass pew-pewing. So the following is an attempt to bring things more in line with what we see in the shows/movies and the main underpinning of the game, you are the only captain and the only ship that matters.
How do we bridge this huge gulf between Kirk and the queues?
The Solution:
I propose a new version of Ker'rat. Call it, Neutral Zone Patrol (or not), make it similar to the Dyson Zones. Put NPCs like freighters going about shipping supplies between stations, which could function as cap and hold points like in the Dyson Contested zone. Make these stations have NPCs that attack and defend and make capping and holding these points a repeatable objective. And get rid of the stupid zone reset.
To prevent teamwork or Fed Ball/Gank Squad from getting out of had some things will need to be done. Primarily, prevent effect stacking. Any given ship can only have 1 of any given debuff applied to it at one time. If stacks of sensor scans, FoMM, or several tyken's rifts or cheese console effects are present, make it so only one applies at a given time. In addition, create an immunity from these powers, for the same amount of time as the original cool-down of the original applied ability. This prevents teams from chaining abilities and would encourage spreading out your abilities to different targets.
Vapers and overwhelming firepower can be mitigated (at least when on defense) by using NPCs. Give all friendly controlled bases an innate tachyon detection grid, along with tractor and torps. Make this applicable to both KDF and Fed controlled bases giving defenders the advantage. However, the advantage will be with attackers on shipping as there should be limited NPC support.
There should be an spawn zone that is totally inaccessible by the enemy faction. Move the Fleet Starbase into this zone at the spawn point to not only increase traffic, but provide useful services. Or if they don't want to move the Fleet Starbase, create a new holding called a "Forward Base" or "Neutral Zone Listening Post". Give it everything you need to conduct business. Adding some new fleet gear and ships to this holding which could be PvP oriented would be nice.
The zone needs to have instances separated by ranking. At base level, all gear should have PvP points. Fleet and lockbox items having the highest points. Upon implementation, each player will start at only the level of their gear. However, making a kill of a player will add to your score. A sliding scale of points could be awarded based how many more points your opponent had versus your point level. And conversely, if you kill a player lower than you, no points would be awarded. This may have the effect of increasing challenges, thus increasing 1v1 PvPing. Getting points may become a grind unto itself, adding another attraction (for a certain set of players) to PvP.
The ranking/point system would also provide an innate PvP training. If you accumulate enough points to move up the ladder to the next level instance, you learn to fight new, better opponents and move up again. Down the road, new players wouldn't be plunged into the fire and would have a controlled way of gaining experience.
The Metrics:
It's very important to give solid rewards for playing in this zone. Without that, no matter how good the zone is, there will be no metrics to be able to show success. Metrics are what's required to get an investment in PvP. So have a place that gives anyone an opportunity to PvP in an environment with objectives and rewards, and people will flock to this zone.
Adding PvP oriented gear and ships (revamped Aquarius please), a new fleet holding and/or Fed/KDF war rep = huge dilithium sink. There's all manner of monetizing which can go into such a zone, while avoiding the stigma of PvP and the queues as a whole.
The Problems of my "Solution":
All that said, there will still be some measure of teamwork available to players. Shot calling will probably clog up zone chat, though hopefully mass reporting of spam would help. And the underlying game mechanics would be problematic. But overall, I think theses changes may alleviate feelings of futility when attempting PvP.
The biggest problem I can see with this suggestion is simply the numbers. KDF is far outnumbered by Feds. I'm not sure how to deal with this, perhaps a buff to the NPCs on the KDF side based on whatever numbers are in the zone at any given time. That seems too complicated. More rewards for playing in the zone as KDF? Might work, I don't know though.
And of course, there are the unbalanced game mechanics. But hopefully with the rank system, vapers and A2B can be kept out of lower tier zones simply based on their base points.
In Summary:
Make part two of Step Between the Stars cause the war to heat up, setting up for this new zone. Peace is boring, moar pew pew!
The TL;DR version:
- Teamwork is OP. Abandon the quest to get the masses to join the queues and set up OPvPvE environments devoid of teams and team-based exploits. Which I think many can agree is the source of PvP frustration.
- Create a system based on your build which gives you a rating, place players into instances with similar ratings, lock gear/loadouts from being switched in zone (coincidentally this prevents console switching exploit).
- Give useful rewards, Fleet Marks or a choice of marks package would probably be most popular.
- It's a lot of content and I'd expect just this suggestion to be a x.5 season or full season by itself. But, if you build it, I believe they will come.
- I'm not saying get rid of the queues, most of you will probably still queue. And communities like Tyler Durden and PvP Bootcamp will still be very important for PvP. But a zone like this, with mass appeal would get some interest and metrics - and who knows, more PvP content.
Thoughts? Flaming? Never going to happen? OP is OP plz nerf?
Post edited by fatman592 on
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Comments
If that was true, Tyler Durden should have fixed PvP and there should be no complaints about PvP anymore. While I agree, a matchmaking system, similar to what I outlined or what others have suggested would help matters, it would not solve more than that one problem - teamwork is too OP for the majority of the lone wolf playerbase.
But my post isn't about how to fix the queues, because I don't believe that is possible. I say leave the queues for those that want them.
This post is a response to the dev blogs and general awareness raising or promoting of PvP which has occurred recently. The whole goal is to get casual PvE players to PvP, in order to show some metrics to the devs to get PvP support and content. The only way I can see to get the masses to PvP is to trick them into doing it.
It's my contention that the queues, in any form, are not worth attempting to sell. PvEers aren't buying it and aren't going to buy it.
If someone says, "[a]ll of PvP is fixed with a matchmaking system" and there currently is an existing matchmaking system, regardless of implementation, the statement is plainly wrong
I agree that a matchmaking system would help the queues currently. However, matchmaking alone will not attract PvEers to the queues. What makes one successful in the queues is taking orders and fulfilling one's role. That kind of play, known as teamwork, is in direct opposition to virtually everything else one can do in the game. The queues, regardless of how balanced or wonderful they may become, will never draw these players.
I also agree that something like TD takes too much effort for the casual player. Just like waiting for empty queues to get enough players is like watching paint dry.
And that's my point. If the PvP community is going to promote the queues (or in the case of Ker'rat, an ancient, bugged environment) to PvEers, they've already failed in their mission. All one has to do is look at any thread promoting PvP to PvEers on the forums.
Yep, and I liked your idea - just not expanding it to the entire Eta Eridani sector block or totally stripping out gear and powers to be on NPC level. I also borrowed some inspiration from a couple other posts.
Probably also Deferi and Nukura.
I recently learned that there are actually still open instance missions among the patrol missions.
Your goal should be attracting PvP'ers from other games into STO PvP, and not converting PvE'ers into PvP'ers. And if you really wanted Pve'ers in PvP, just add pve style items for rewards, and you'd have a whole bunch of whining, afk'ers grinding there way to their next set.
I'm not trying to attract anyone to the queues. I'm trying to suggest an alternative idea to hound the devs and community about, instead of attempting to sell the queues to the masses.
Like others have said, match making along with a pvp reputation that lowers the barriers to entry to pvp by reducing grind in general and removing the necessity for pve grind would be much more useful than something that tries to appeal to the masses - and ends up satisfying no one.
I was only suggesting PvP rep as a dilithium sink which would appeal to devs rather than players. Do I really want another fleet holding, or more rep gear, or more ships - no. But my suggestions in this regard is to provide a motivation for the company, profit. Removing grinds is a non-starter because that is the company's bread and butter.
I reject claims that gear is a barrier to entry since everything is fairly easily obtainable in game. My suggestions relating to a point system for placement in an appropriate instance is aimed more at separating vets from day one players - and several skill levels in between.
Again, this would be additional content. I don't expect it to satisfy all. If everyone that currently queues never enters this zone and stays in the queues, that would be just fine.
FYI, a PvP rep (in my mind) would be an alternate type of gear, not necessarily replacing what you already have, but making pvp perspecific, and many legacy and super expensive stuff more accessible for players who have just started or new alts. Or do you think the current price of things like plasmodic leach, ACC3 weapons, DOFF's or the helmsman trait are "fairly easily obtainable in game"?
Yes, it's all easily obtained.
The time efficient method: Buy zen, obtain keys, sell keys, get virtually anything in game within a couple hours.
The grind method: Hit dilithum cap on multiple alts (not difficult), convert to zen, obtain keys, sell keys, grind ec.
I personally do the grind method and can get several million of ec in less than an hour (I just happened to have a particularly lucky Ker'rat run which rewarded an XI VR Disruptor Induction Coil - which took all of two minutes). It's really not hard. And once you do reach a serviceable build, it's easier to keep up with.
But my system of separating players in this zone means there would be no barrier to entry. Vets can play in one zone with uber gear while beginners play another zone. Not playing in the same league doesn't invalidate gear.
And I'm not saying the PvP rep gear has to be top of the line. As if Refracting Tetryons, the Romulan/Reman Space sets or even [borg] weapons are/were that good at all. As with any rep, only a couple items need to be useful.
One way to get new players is to find a way to stop other players from using scripts in the game so it a fair and a fun game.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=590121
Choose 1 piece of PvE Space content that you would consider both balanced and challenging in this game and explain why you think it is so.
*We had the era of ESTF torpedo one-shots, we now have the era of sub-3 minute ESTFs.
*We had NWS with massed Iso-spam, SNB-spam, Trico-spam, Tractor-spam, etc.
*We now have NWS wave 10 completions lighting up the system messages like we're in a casino and people are winning at the penny slots.
*We have the newest space content (voth, dyson sphere) that you can play with just a spacebar and a strong tolerance for boring and un-engaging things.
Cryptic generally does 2 types of PvE encounters.
A) "Boss" mobs who can easily one-shot players through every available buff they have.
Aside from the fact that the majority of this game's playerbase can't stand any PvE content that even starts to seem like a challenge and instantly calls for nerfs - what in Cryptic's PvE history should give us all confidence they could make PvPvE that actually has balanced NPC usage?
We have a PvPvE zone already, it's not wonderfully designed but it does wonderfully highlight some of the issues with the concept.
Chiefly that most people go there to kirk it out, or they go there to farm borg cubes or they go there to kirk it out while farming borg cubes.
Do PvErs really want PvE encounters that are not only challenging in and of themselves but are also placed inside a PvP zone where they might have to PvP?
There are not enough hazards in this game and PvP looks more and more like Kickass and Red Mist slapping each other with various weapons slowly wearing each other down in a slapstick fight.
Or
POW, haha newb died in one shot trolololololol
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
-=Hannibal - Inner Circle PvP-Department=-
Hannibal's YouTube PvP-channel (under construction)
More Inner Circle PvP-Action worth watching from: Hank, Mira Theng and Zimbilimbim
Back in Vanilla (WOW) the initial "AV PvPvE battleground" was a huge success (based upon some "matches" lasting days), because it gave objective based content, NPC allies/enemies to contend with, Faction NPC's to content with, and boss encounters, all in the same match. It called for unique strategies and organization to obtain the ultimate victory.
IMO, allowing groups to que together, without "bracketing" their skill/gear level, started the demise of that game, because of the advanced gear/tactics/skill a highly prepared trained group could have on the outcome.
Team ques are not needed for public matches since the elite fleets/premades already have a customized matchmaking "method" for organizing their own league matches.
Perhaps PvPvE content that required "stealthers/vapers" to come out of stealth (mining objectives/prisoner transport or defense node/boss ship destruction) to help other than attacking PCs would help.
Maybe adding in tough faction (boss ships/starbase/etc.) That need to be destroyed/held/pillaged, separated by a "neutral zone" (think P|E|N|E|P) on a side before securing a win in a cap-n-hold or objective based PvPvE instance.....
On the faction sides reside the PVE NPC's, the "neutral zone" could be where uninterrupted (non PVE) fighting occurs and the faction sides include both. P=spawn/base; E=PvE NPC faction guards/battlefield areas; N=FFA. difficulty for each side could be scaled by some hidden "score" (sorry no better measuring stick atm), to determine the difficulty of the opposing factions NPCs.
I definitely think it could work, even with premades, because PUGs could "fall back" on their "toughened" allies to assist. Objectives could be kill count (PvE, PvP, or both), time of possession/areas held, or resource based.
Also, they could also allow your NPC ship summon abilities to summon specific ships from your personal fleet including loadout gear, Boffs, Doffs, weapons, consoles, etc. all contributing to the strength of summoned ship during combat - (you know C-store has to be involved in some way here) Probably not for this thread but could be added.
Just attempting to brainstorm.
You're right, PvE isn't challenging. I don't think this Ker'rat Mk 2 zone would be challenging in and of itself. Ker'rat isn't challenging as it stands now. I can fly into a mob of Borg NPCs that would seemed daunting just a couple years ago.
I think I share the common feeling that if people try to PvP, they may like it. The overall zone, with rewards and some amount of new things to grind/buy would be the sugar to help the medicine go down.
I guess I'm the Kirk that farms the objective, then finds someone to fight until reset.
I'm with you on really liking Ker'rat. I used to hate it, but I came back with a better build and have been doing fine. It's the only interesting place left in the game for me...
Can anyone blame me for wanting a new, hopefully improved version?
Agreed, they own the queues. They have the system they want, leave the queues to them.
Yeah, that was part of what I was getting at with making objectives like cap and hold. They would be forced to abandon the one shot wonder build to make room for durability, if they wanted to gain rewards. Trolls will troll though, and I'd leave the option open for both sides to attack shipping, which requires a decloak and opens you up to vaping yourself.
Yeah, I was thinking make the bases pretty tough overall. Adding "tough" NPCs would be fine but as ussultimatium said, there isn't really any PvE that's tough anymore. So maybe time should be the enemy for caping and holding?
I think it would be interesting to give healers/healing a role in speeding up the capture by healing turrets and the base. And maybe career specific roles in the capture of each base. A tac can call in an NPC fleet, engs can speed up the repair of a base once captured, sci could jam the local tachyon detection grid. Might be cool.
I think it would be really awesome if players could take their Tuffi or Cell ship into this zone and have some mechanic of allowing them to capture of bases without firing a shot. Since they're able to pose as civilians. Probably OP though.
I appreciate it.
That really depends on the people.
The reality is there are some people who really hate the very concept of PvP, they even consider it morally repugnant (or they just have fragile egos and hide behind blanket statements).
Regardless, Cryptic tends to cater to that demographic - possibly on purpose.
Their games are always bubble-gummy, players get to feel super awesome while they flatten lots of weak AI opponents that have 2 attacks.
You could probably dangle humongous rewards in front of those players, and they still wouldn't PvP - because they just hate the concept to its core no matter how well executed.
STO PvP doesn't need to cater to everyone, neither does DOFFing, nor Minigames like Dil mining.
STO PvP needs to cater to PvPers would would PvP here if PvP wasn't a total clusterbungle of overpowered stacking, poorly defined and barely documented mechanics, and heavily monetized one-shot kill or "oh TRIBBLE" buttons.
In essence, we desperately need some balance passes.
Stuff like more maps that already exist, and maybe some objectives that aren't awful (C&H) or "15 kills", and finally some sort of player/team rankings to keep games somewhat decently matched would be "swell".
Yeah, I see what you're saying. I touched on the utter lack of balance in the TD guest blog thread. I just don't see a fix for game mechanics without a ground up approach/total revamp. It could happen I guess... I won't hold my breath.
I do think PvP, as a general idea, is massively popular; one needs to look no further than consoles.
I guess the "there is no future for PvP" and "PvP is dead" responses are kind of the consensus thus far? I kind of wish I would have posted this in the General Discussion section, to get varied responses. But the post would probably devolve pretty quickly into a flame fest and PvPer vs PvEer bickering.
That will be the likely consensus until Cryptic actually decides to invest in PvP and show they are actually interested in a fun & balanced PvP environment.
It would force them to re-examine all of their bad design choices & horrendous mud-flation, choices that have eroded both PvE and PvP.
Then they would need the conviction and mettle to actually deal with it.