Are we talking in-game, or the canon ships? If we are talking game mechanics, nevermind. If we are talking the ships themselves...absolutely incorrect.
We are talking canon ships.
The Defaint is a small heavily armed ship, just like the bop. It's only mary-sue fandom that tries it make a ship out of it that could take a galaxy or Souvereign. It's extremly for its size- like the bop... And not more. It has also never been shown to actually do more.
Yes to T5 Miranda Class! But with the benefit of having =>THIS SKIN<= as an option!
Actually, I got something pretty similar to that using our mix-and-match system, when I got the Commander-level escort. Use the Akira struts and nacelles, the Zephyr hull, and the Oslo saucer, and it's pretty close.
Actually, I got something pretty similar to that using our mix-and-match system, when I got the Commander-level escort. Use the Akira struts and nacelles, the Zephyr hull, and the Oslo saucer, and it's pretty close.
Speaking as an ex-puppeteer who's had a go at Lady Penelope (she's a bigger girl than you'd think), I think you may mean Thunderbird 3, the big red space ship.
Speaking as an ex-puppeteer who's had a go at Lady Penelope (she's a bigger girl than you'd think), I think you may mean Thunderbird 3, the big red space ship.
Thunderbird 5 is a space station
Well, so was DS9, but they managed to fly her from Bajoran orbit to the Denoris belt.
I've said before, T5 "NX" = Akira with upswept nacelles and special material (paintjob). Of course, no Akira-variant has upswept nacelles like that...
And as to the T5 Connie, I propose repurposing her as a Science ship. For multiple reasons:
a- There is precedent, somewhere, that last generation's heavy cruiser = this generation's light cruiser. As Intrepid is also considered a light cruiser and is classed in-game as Science, A Connie Sci "fits".
b- To me, there are 6 "Eras" in Trek - ENT, ToS, TMP, TNG, DS9, VOY. At Tier 5, we have TMP (Excelsior, Cruiser), TNG (Galaxy, Cruiser), DS9 (Defiant, Escort) and VOY (Intrepid, Sci). Continuing with the ENT = NX = Akira = Escort, that leaves ToS without it's "hero" ship in Endgame, therefore, and to continue the "new" concept of "2 eras per class", Sci is the last place left...
However, before anyone attempts to pull this insanity off, I don't ever see a T5 NX actually being "built" like the T1 NX (aka no shields and massive hull), because that would so unbalance the game it's ridiculous.
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
However, before anyone attempts to pull this insanity off, I don't ever see a T5 NX actually being "built" like the T1 NX (aka no shields and massive hull), because that would so unbalance the game it's ridiculous.
because a soyus (miranda varient) with mk12 systems would wipe the floor with a defiant.
without plot armor a defiant is just a fat scout b'rel.
and you can forget having a defiant on a level field with a centaur in any situation....
What would the Soyuz do? Sensor the Defiant to death?
Oh and we've seen what a Centaur does against a JH fighter: nothing.
The two trade punches with eacth otther for a while the Centaur may survive since the JH fighter keeps holding back.
What would the Soyuz do? Sensor the Defiant to death?
Oh and we've seen what a Centaur does against a JH fighter: nothing.
The two trade punches with eacth otther for a while the Centaur may survive since the JH fighter keeps holding back.
The fact that they took on the bug in the first place should be proof enough, if the captain didn't think he at least COULD win, he wouldn't attack.
Ultimately: we have seen the Defaint one hitting bugs.
We have seen bugs taking on the Defaint,
We have seen the Defaint take on an excelsior.
We have seen bops one hitting bugs, too.
We have seen a lot, actually the "balance" is quiet inconsistent in the series, and thrown. Out of the window in sto. Otherwise excelsior, intrepid and Defaint could not be in the same tier as the Souvereign or the Prometheus or the galaxy. Wich ultimately is a good thing, because, people are here to have fun and they should be able to use the ships they like, not the ships others think are not strong enough. I we'd go by that logic tier 5 would involve May be 3 ships.
So since the centaur could take on a ship that can take on the Defaint... If you NEED a reason to have it at t5, you'll have it right there.
What would the Soyuz do? Sensor the Defiant to death?
Oh and we've seen what a Centaur does against a JH fighter: nothing.
The two trade punches with eacth otther for a while the Centaur may survive since the JH fighter keeps holding back.
turns out the Soyuz class is actually far more powerful than the Defiant class, without the plot armor in the DS9 series, which If I'm not mistaken only the U.S.S. Defiant actually had, it's made of paper.
The Soyuz has tri-Phaser beam cannons on both sides of its hull, the sensor module is so powerful it is described in multiple sources as being capable of disabling shields and disrupting communications in other ships.
Hands down the Soyuz would win against the defiant.
The Centaur however is a different story, that is just a vanilla plain old redshirt ship.
EDIT///// Keep in mind, this is just the speculated setup, and was described by the original designer to be a desparate kitbash made by Starfleet to retrofit the old mirandas to be useful. There is no way in hell this ship could actively take on THE defiant, a defiant class maybe but not THE defiant. it's also not supposed to be efficient, the creator described how he imagined the ship only being good for short range engagements seeing as how much power it needs to draw.
turns out the Soyuz class is actually far more powerful than the Defiant class, without the plot armor in the DS9 series, which If I'm not mistaken only the U.S.S. Defiant actually had, it's made of paper.
The Soyuz has tri-Phaser beam cannons on both sides of its hull, the sensor module is so powerful it is described in multiple sources as being capable of disabling shields and disrupting communications in other ships.
Hands down the Soyuz would win against the defiant.
The Centaur however is a different story, that is just a vanilla plain old redshirt ship.
What LOL!!, I must have missed that episode of TNG/DS9 LOL!!
turns out the Soyuz class is actually far more powerful than the Defiant class, without the plot armor in the DS9 series, which If I'm not mistaken only the U.S.S. Defiant actually had, it's made of paper.
The Soyuz has tri-Phaser beam cannons on both sides of its hull, the sensor module is so powerful it is described in multiple sources as being capable of disabling shields and disrupting communications in other ships.
Hands down the Soyuz would win against the defiant.
The Centaur however is a different story, that is just a vanilla plain old redshirt ship.
None of your sources can be canon.
Also, the Defaint was the first ship developed as an "in official" warship and they are similarly sized.
So I doubt the 80-years-old-science-vessel-Soyuz can wipe the floor with the modern-warship-Defaint (well modern in the series era).
But I don't think the Defaint can wipe the floor with the Soyuz either.
What LOL!!, I must have missed that episode of TNG/DS9 LOL!!
yea I ment to add what I edited, there is no way the Soyuz could take on THE defiant, its creator said he imagined it being a desparate heavy assualt short range ship made by Starfleet to update old mirandas for the sake of resources and need for heavily armed ships.
turns out the Soyuz class is actually far more powerful than the Defiant class, without the plot armor in the DS9 series, which If I'm not mistaken only the U.S.S. Defiant actually had, it's made of paper.
The Soyuz has tri-Phaser beam cannons on both sides of its hull, the sensor module is so powerful it is described in multiple sources as being capable of disabling shields and disrupting communications in other ships.
Hands down the Soyuz would win against the defiant.
The Centaur however is a different story, that is just a vanilla plain old redshirt ship.
Source? Anything besides fanfiction sites like DITL.ORG which as I recall invented the nonsense?
Because the source I have states those are SENSORS.
"the art department was asked to modify the already existing USS Reliant miniature from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, minus the roll bar and with new sensor turrets, docking port and bridge."
"the art department was asked to modify the already existing USS Reliant miniature from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, minus the roll bar and with new sensor turrets, docking port and bridge."
an old Star Trek: Ships of Starfleet Book, my grandfather got in a convention in the 90's. It even has the full layout of the enterprise D, as well as the Soyuz class in the Dominion Wars, it had a designer note next to it where he speculated what he wanted to add.
However Canonically it is only bristling with sensors, designer wise, the side pylons hosted tri-phaser beam cannons.
This book is so freaking cool though, I forgot I had it up to last week, aparently i've been using it to stabalize my table for the past five years.
it even notes the centaur class, it's progression, the miranda class, and even has a little commentary on the New Orleans class, but it's got only some crappy pics of it.
an old Star Trek: Ships of Starfleet Book, my grandfather got in a convention in the 90's. It even has the full layout of the enterprise D, as well as the Soyuz class in the Dominion Wars, it had a designer note next to it where he speculated what he wanted to add.
However Canonically it is only bristling with sensors, designer wise, the side pylons hosted tri-phaser beam cannons.
This book is so freaking cool though, I forgot I had it up to last week, aparently i've been using it to stabalize my table for the past five years.
it even notes the centaur class, it's progression, the miranda class, and even has a little commentary on the New Orleans class, but it's got only some crappy pics of it.
I know those books. You probably have one of the old "Jackill's" Star Fleet reference Manuals written by Eric Kristiansen. Those are fanfiction. It even is stated so on their own website where they still sell the stuff.
"This reference material is neither authorized nor approved by Paramount Pictures"
And Eric Kristiansen did not design that ship that was Michael Okuda.
I know those books. You probably have one of the old "Jackill's" Star Fleet reference Manuals written by Eric Kristiansen. Those are fanfiction. It even is stated so on their own website where they still sell the stuff.
"This reference material is neither authorized nor approved by Paramount Pictures"
And Eric Kristiansen did not design that ship that was Michael Okuda.
All I know is this one says it's got interviews from the ship designers and from Roddenberry, it's old. really old, even has tidbits on how they were trying to have the Enterprise C the TNG Enterprise. as well as having an updated version of the Constitution as the TNG Ent.
"the art department was asked to modify the already existing USS Reliant miniature from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, minus the roll bar and with new sensor turrets, docking port and bridge."
Memory alpha is not was it used to be it seems.
Fact is, since they never commented what those things are on screen, there is no canon according them beside that "there is something"
Could be cannons. Could be sensors. Could be something else.
It beeing sensors is just the a articles authors interpretation,.
Memory alpha may be very precise, but it's not canon. What is onscreen is, nothing else.
Fact is, since they never commented what those things are on screen, there is no canon according them beside that "there is something"
Could be cannons. Could be sensors. Could be something else.
It beeing sensors is just the a articles authors interpretation,.
Memory alpha may be very precise, but it's not canon. What is onscreen is, nothing else.
You forgot that in this case Mem Alpha gives sources: licensed books with interviews with the producers.
The Encyclopedia, Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion and Star Trek: The Next Generation - The Continuing Mission.
And in case of the Encyclopedia (written by Okuda himself) it clealy states the Soyuz has enlarged cargo and shuttle bays and large external sensors. Not that its some kind of megaphaserboomboomkillboat of doom.
So on one hand we have a licensed book written by the man who designed the ship.
On the other we have a non-licensed book written by a person who had nothing to do with the design of the ship or has worked on any Star Trek episode or movie.
All I know is this one says it's got interviews from the ship designers and from Roddenberry, it's old. really old, even has tidbits on how they were trying to have the Enterprise C the TNG Enterprise. as well as having an updated version of the Constitution as the TNG Ent.
Doesn't make it licensed and doesn't make it canon.
There's also the simple fact that the designer of the ship, Okuda, is on record in a licensed book that those are sensors.
And Eric Kristiansen who wrote those books you reference has had precisely zero to do with the production of any Trek show.
If you find an accurate drawing of the Enterprise with some notes by Andrew Probert and Mett Jeffries and it states somewhere else the nacelles are filled with bubblegum will you believe it too?
All I know is this one says it's got interviews from the ship designers and from Roddenberry, it's old. really old, even has tidbits on how they were trying to have the Enterprise C the TNG Enterprise. as well as having an updated version of the Constitution as the TNG Ent.
Roddenberry was already dead by the time Cause and Effect even aired, so I call bull.
Roddenberry was already dead by the time Cause and Effect even aired, so I call bull.
The point is that manuals are not canon.
I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend for some people: What is in onscreen in life action series or movies is canon.
That's it. That's the rule.
In conclusion everything else is not.
Sto is a licensed product, still it's not canon. The tons of novels are licensed yet not canon. And all those manuals can be licensed as much as they want, they still are not canon.
This isn't Star Wars where every contribution is canon.
The point is that manuals are not canon.
I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend for some people: What is in onscreen in life action series or movies is canon.
That's it. That's the rule.
In conclusion everything else is not.
Sto is a licensed product, still it's not canon. The tons of novels are licensed yet not canon. And all those manuals can be licensed as much as they want, they still are not canon.
This isn't Star Wars where every contribution is canon.
Where in my post did you get that I was saying it was canon? Do you need to borrow my glasses?
The guy was claiming an interview in the book with Roddenberry about the episode, I simply pointed out that unless he was speaking from the grave, I found an interview a little hard to believe.
Comments
We are talking canon ships.
The Defaint is a small heavily armed ship, just like the bop. It's only mary-sue fandom that tries it make a ship out of it that could take a galaxy or Souvereign. It's extremly for its size- like the bop... And not more. It has also never been shown to actually do more.
We might have flown the same ship
Speaking as an ex-puppeteer who's had a go at Lady Penelope (she's a bigger girl than you'd think), I think you may mean Thunderbird 3, the big red space ship.
Thunderbird 5 is a space station
Sadly Thunderbird 5 didn't move around much....lol
I like the real unrefitted nx01 better.
No. The Roms get the Winnebago from Spaceballs.
And as to the T5 Connie, I propose repurposing her as a Science ship. For multiple reasons:
a- There is precedent, somewhere, that last generation's heavy cruiser = this generation's light cruiser. As Intrepid is also considered a light cruiser and is classed in-game as Science, A Connie Sci "fits".
b- To me, there are 6 "Eras" in Trek - ENT, ToS, TMP, TNG, DS9, VOY. At Tier 5, we have TMP (Excelsior, Cruiser), TNG (Galaxy, Cruiser), DS9 (Defiant, Escort) and VOY (Intrepid, Sci). Continuing with the ENT = NX = Akira = Escort, that leaves ToS without it's "hero" ship in Endgame, therefore, and to continue the "new" concept of "2 eras per class", Sci is the last place left...
However, before anyone attempts to pull this insanity off, I don't ever see a T5 NX actually being "built" like the T1 NX (aka no shields and massive hull), because that would so unbalance the game it's ridiculous.
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Uhm....what!? :eek:
What would the Soyuz do? Sensor the Defiant to death?
Oh and we've seen what a Centaur does against a JH fighter: nothing.
The two trade punches with eacth otther for a while the Centaur may survive since the JH fighter keeps holding back.
The fact that they took on the bug in the first place should be proof enough, if the captain didn't think he at least COULD win, he wouldn't attack.
Ultimately: we have seen the Defaint one hitting bugs.
We have seen bugs taking on the Defaint,
We have seen the Defaint take on an excelsior.
We have seen bops one hitting bugs, too.
We have seen a lot, actually the "balance" is quiet inconsistent in the series, and thrown. Out of the window in sto. Otherwise excelsior, intrepid and Defaint could not be in the same tier as the Souvereign or the Prometheus or the galaxy. Wich ultimately is a good thing, because, people are here to have fun and they should be able to use the ships they like, not the ships others think are not strong enough. I we'd go by that logic tier 5 would involve May be 3 ships.
So since the centaur could take on a ship that can take on the Defaint... If you NEED a reason to have it at t5, you'll have it right there.
turns out the Soyuz class is actually far more powerful than the Defiant class, without the plot armor in the DS9 series, which If I'm not mistaken only the U.S.S. Defiant actually had, it's made of paper.
The Soyuz has tri-Phaser beam cannons on both sides of its hull, the sensor module is so powerful it is described in multiple sources as being capable of disabling shields and disrupting communications in other ships.
Hands down the Soyuz would win against the defiant.
The Centaur however is a different story, that is just a vanilla plain old redshirt ship.
EDIT///// Keep in mind, this is just the speculated setup, and was described by the original designer to be a desparate kitbash made by Starfleet to retrofit the old mirandas to be useful. There is no way in hell this ship could actively take on THE defiant, a defiant class maybe but not THE defiant. it's also not supposed to be efficient, the creator described how he imagined the ship only being good for short range engagements seeing as how much power it needs to draw.
What LOL!!, I must have missed that episode of TNG/DS9 LOL!!
None of your sources can be canon.
Also, the Defaint was the first ship developed as an "in official" warship and they are similarly sized.
So I doubt the 80-years-old-science-vessel-Soyuz can wipe the floor with the modern-warship-Defaint (well modern in the series era).
But I don't think the Defaint can wipe the floor with the Soyuz either.
yea I ment to add what I edited, there is no way the Soyuz could take on THE defiant, its creator said he imagined it being a desparate heavy assualt short range ship made by Starfleet to update old mirandas for the sake of resources and need for heavily armed ships.
Source? Anything besides fanfiction sites like DITL.ORG which as I recall invented the nonsense?
Because the source I have states those are SENSORS.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Soyuz_class
"the art department was asked to modify the already existing USS Reliant miniature from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, minus the roll bar and with new sensor turrets, docking port and bridge."
an old Star Trek: Ships of Starfleet Book, my grandfather got in a convention in the 90's. It even has the full layout of the enterprise D, as well as the Soyuz class in the Dominion Wars, it had a designer note next to it where he speculated what he wanted to add.
However Canonically it is only bristling with sensors, designer wise, the side pylons hosted tri-phaser beam cannons.
This book is so freaking cool though, I forgot I had it up to last week, aparently i've been using it to stabalize my table for the past five years.
it even notes the centaur class, it's progression, the miranda class, and even has a little commentary on the New Orleans class, but it's got only some crappy pics of it.
I know those books. You probably have one of the old "Jackill's" Star Fleet reference Manuals written by Eric Kristiansen. Those are fanfiction. It even is stated so on their own website where they still sell the stuff.
"This reference material is neither authorized nor approved by Paramount Pictures"
And Eric Kristiansen did not design that ship that was Michael Okuda.
All I know is this one says it's got interviews from the ship designers and from Roddenberry, it's old. really old, even has tidbits on how they were trying to have the Enterprise C the TNG Enterprise. as well as having an updated version of the Constitution as the TNG Ent.
Memory alpha is not was it used to be it seems.
Fact is, since they never commented what those things are on screen, there is no canon according them beside that "there is something"
Could be cannons. Could be sensors. Could be something else.
It beeing sensors is just the a articles authors interpretation,.
Memory alpha may be very precise, but it's not canon. What is onscreen is, nothing else.
You forgot that in this case Mem Alpha gives sources: licensed books with interviews with the producers.
The Encyclopedia, Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion and Star Trek: The Next Generation - The Continuing Mission.
And in case of the Encyclopedia (written by Okuda himself) it clealy states the Soyuz has enlarged cargo and shuttle bays and large external sensors. Not that its some kind of megaphaserboomboomkillboat of doom.
So on one hand we have a licensed book written by the man who designed the ship.
On the other we have a non-licensed book written by a person who had nothing to do with the design of the ship or has worked on any Star Trek episode or movie.
Doesn't make it licensed and doesn't make it canon.
There's also the simple fact that the designer of the ship, Okuda, is on record in a licensed book that those are sensors.
And Eric Kristiansen who wrote those books you reference has had precisely zero to do with the production of any Trek show.
If you find an accurate drawing of the Enterprise with some notes by Andrew Probert and Mett Jeffries and it states somewhere else the nacelles are filled with bubblegum will you believe it too?
Roddenberry was already dead by the time Cause and Effect even aired, so I call bull.
The point is that manuals are not canon.
I don't know why this is so hard to comprehend for some people:
What is in onscreen in life action series or movies is canon.
That's it. That's the rule.
In conclusion everything else is not.
Sto is a licensed product, still it's not canon. The tons of novels are licensed yet not canon. And all those manuals can be licensed as much as they want, they still are not canon.
This isn't Star Wars where every contribution is canon.
Where in my post did you get that I was saying it was canon? Do you need to borrow my glasses?
The guy was claiming an interview in the book with Roddenberry about the episode, I simply pointed out that unless he was speaking from the grave, I found an interview a little hard to believe.