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The Qin Comparison
reginamala78
Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
With so many tears shed around here over the supposed massive inferiority of the Qin Raptor and the irrelevance of its cloak, I decided to run a basic test. I put my Klingon Tac into a Mirror Qin, took my Fed-Alien Tac and pulled her old Patrol Escort out of mothballs, geared them to match, and spent the last few weeks of my regular gameplay comparing them apples-to-apples (and free-to-free).
IKS P'kolo, Mirror Qin Raptor
Patrol Escort used the same boff, doff, equipment, rep, and skill layout. The only differences where that instead of Starship Stealth the Fed has extra points in Power Insulators and Starship Weapons, phasers instead of disruptors, and the Efficient Captain trait providing a bit of extra energy.
Boffs were each one Efficient, one Pirate, and the other three providing no space-trait bonsues. Boff layout was intentionally simplistic and fairly standard, meant to handle a wide variety of situations rather than swapping around for specific missions. Doffs were 3 technicians and 2 projectile officers, all purple quality. Energy settings were 100/40/40/20.
Equipment was items I had in the bank off both characters, and likewise representative of an extremely common layout with readily-available gear. Since the Borg shield has such a low cap and might hide the effects of the Qin's lower shield mod, I also did an alternate check using the Reman 11-blue for its higher capacity.
Results:
Stat measurements were taken in orbit of Qo'nos or Earth and do not reflect active powers. The only stats listed are those that varied between the ships; in any unlisted category, they were identical.
Mirror Qin Raptor
Speed: 28.9
Turning: 37.7
Hull: 45,489
Hull Repair: 132.0% per minute
Shield (Borg): 6,373 per facing
Regen (Borg): 232.2 per 6 seconds
Shield (Reman): 8,413 per facing
Regen (Reman): 111.5 per 6 seconds
Patrol Escort
Speed: 29.55
Turning: 40.6
Hull: 42,732
Hull Repair: 132.0% per minute
Shield (Borg): 6,883 per facing
Regen (Borg): 250.8 per 6 seconds
Shield (Reman): 9,086 per facing
Regen (Reman): 120.4 per 6 seconds
Gameplay Evaluation
I ran both ships several times through the ISE, CSE, KASE, Crystalline Entity, Vault Ensnared, Azure Nebula Rescue, Tau Dewa Sector Patrol, the Breen dailies, STS, Breach, and the Voth Contested Zone. Missions were queued randomly, except for STFs where I went with random groups from the EliteSTF channel.
In general gameplay, the ships were almost indistinguishable. The Qin's 2757-point hull advantage was likely of benefit resisting bleedthrough damage, particularly plasma burns and Voth science powers. On the other hand, the additional 510*4 points of shielding of the Patrol Escort was probably superior against energy weapons and preventing torpedoes from ever touching the hull. At gameplay speeds however, that difference was too small to notice, and on pure feel the ships had the same levels of durability.
In mobility, the Patrol Escort's base 1 degree turning advantage grew to 2.9 degrees once skill and engine modifiers factored in. Its pretty obvious on paper, but during gameplay that difference was measured in fractions of a second and barely noticeable. For example, a Patrol Escort doing a 180-degree turn would take 4.43 seconds, while in a Qin it would take 4.77 seconds, significant enough that one could tell the difference, but not world-shaking. As for the speed difference, I think that is attributable to the extra 4 engine energy my Fed had due to trait differences, but it didn't seem significant enough to buy two trait respecs over.
As for the common complaint about the Qin's turning point slowing its turning further than stats would suggest, it wasn't something I ever encountered. I wonder if that is some kind of 'optical illusion' some people experience with the model where their instinctive expectation doesn't match the model's maneuvers and it throws their piloting (I have that problem with the Mogai and Dhelan). In gameplay though, I never encountered it.
Lastly, there is the Qin's cloaking device. In STFs, CEE, the "Voth STFs," and Vault Ensnared, it had little purpose other than boosting an alpha strike every now and then. Any mission where there were pauses between engagements long enough to cloak however, it was a wonderful advantage, not so much for the damage bonus as much as allowing me to pick the vector, range, and timing of my attacks with impunity. In the Contested Zone especially, the difference between a cloaking and non-cloaking ship was night and day, and I cannot understand how some players dismiss the advantages provided by even a basic cloak.
Conclusion
The (Mirror) Qin and the Patrol Escort are almost the same ship. Durability is almost the same, varying only by a bit more hull vs a bit more shields. The Patrol turns better, enough that the human eye might notice the difference, but not enough to significantly change gameplay. The Qin's cloak gives it superior initiative and situational control however, in my opinion more than enough to offset the turn deficiency. As such, I can see the Fleet Qin receiving a +1 to turning as part of its enhancement package; Fed escorts were once 15, now 16, so why not at least the Fleet Raptors?
The Qin's Boff layout is something that needs to be addressed however. Obviously, I tested Mirror Qin against Patrol Escort, because they are both Lvl40 ships that are free (or essentially free) and match up nicely. The standard Qin and its fleet counterpart however instead have the Tactical ensign, leading many to compare it to the Defiant, which as a C-store ship has numerous differences and only furthers the gap at the Fleet level. Because the Qin matches up so much more closely to the Patrol (and standard Advanced) escorts, and due to the limited number of KDF fleet ships, I now firmly believe that the Fleet Qin should be upgraded to a universal ensign slot, to bring it in line with Fleet Patrol Escort twin.
Other than an adjustment to Boff layout, and possibly a slight turning enhancement, now more than ever I do not understand the many complaints about the Qin Raptor. The Qin is an excellent ship.
IKS P'kolo, Mirror Qin Raptor
Patrol Escort used the same boff, doff, equipment, rep, and skill layout. The only differences where that instead of Starship Stealth the Fed has extra points in Power Insulators and Starship Weapons, phasers instead of disruptors, and the Efficient Captain trait providing a bit of extra energy.
Boffs were each one Efficient, one Pirate, and the other three providing no space-trait bonsues. Boff layout was intentionally simplistic and fairly standard, meant to handle a wide variety of situations rather than swapping around for specific missions. Doffs were 3 technicians and 2 projectile officers, all purple quality. Energy settings were 100/40/40/20.
Equipment was items I had in the bank off both characters, and likewise representative of an extremely common layout with readily-available gear. Since the Borg shield has such a low cap and might hide the effects of the Qin's lower shield mod, I also did an alternate check using the Reman 11-blue for its higher capacity.
Results:
Stat measurements were taken in orbit of Qo'nos or Earth and do not reflect active powers. The only stats listed are those that varied between the ships; in any unlisted category, they were identical.
Mirror Qin Raptor
Speed: 28.9
Turning: 37.7
Hull: 45,489
Hull Repair: 132.0% per minute
Shield (Borg): 6,373 per facing
Regen (Borg): 232.2 per 6 seconds
Shield (Reman): 8,413 per facing
Regen (Reman): 111.5 per 6 seconds
Patrol Escort
Speed: 29.55
Turning: 40.6
Hull: 42,732
Hull Repair: 132.0% per minute
Shield (Borg): 6,883 per facing
Regen (Borg): 250.8 per 6 seconds
Shield (Reman): 9,086 per facing
Regen (Reman): 120.4 per 6 seconds
Gameplay Evaluation
I ran both ships several times through the ISE, CSE, KASE, Crystalline Entity, Vault Ensnared, Azure Nebula Rescue, Tau Dewa Sector Patrol, the Breen dailies, STS, Breach, and the Voth Contested Zone. Missions were queued randomly, except for STFs where I went with random groups from the EliteSTF channel.
In general gameplay, the ships were almost indistinguishable. The Qin's 2757-point hull advantage was likely of benefit resisting bleedthrough damage, particularly plasma burns and Voth science powers. On the other hand, the additional 510*4 points of shielding of the Patrol Escort was probably superior against energy weapons and preventing torpedoes from ever touching the hull. At gameplay speeds however, that difference was too small to notice, and on pure feel the ships had the same levels of durability.
In mobility, the Patrol Escort's base 1 degree turning advantage grew to 2.9 degrees once skill and engine modifiers factored in. Its pretty obvious on paper, but during gameplay that difference was measured in fractions of a second and barely noticeable. For example, a Patrol Escort doing a 180-degree turn would take 4.43 seconds, while in a Qin it would take 4.77 seconds, significant enough that one could tell the difference, but not world-shaking. As for the speed difference, I think that is attributable to the extra 4 engine energy my Fed had due to trait differences, but it didn't seem significant enough to buy two trait respecs over.
As for the common complaint about the Qin's turning point slowing its turning further than stats would suggest, it wasn't something I ever encountered. I wonder if that is some kind of 'optical illusion' some people experience with the model where their instinctive expectation doesn't match the model's maneuvers and it throws their piloting (I have that problem with the Mogai and Dhelan). In gameplay though, I never encountered it.
Lastly, there is the Qin's cloaking device. In STFs, CEE, the "Voth STFs," and Vault Ensnared, it had little purpose other than boosting an alpha strike every now and then. Any mission where there were pauses between engagements long enough to cloak however, it was a wonderful advantage, not so much for the damage bonus as much as allowing me to pick the vector, range, and timing of my attacks with impunity. In the Contested Zone especially, the difference between a cloaking and non-cloaking ship was night and day, and I cannot understand how some players dismiss the advantages provided by even a basic cloak.
Conclusion
The (Mirror) Qin and the Patrol Escort are almost the same ship. Durability is almost the same, varying only by a bit more hull vs a bit more shields. The Patrol turns better, enough that the human eye might notice the difference, but not enough to significantly change gameplay. The Qin's cloak gives it superior initiative and situational control however, in my opinion more than enough to offset the turn deficiency. As such, I can see the Fleet Qin receiving a +1 to turning as part of its enhancement package; Fed escorts were once 15, now 16, so why not at least the Fleet Raptors?
The Qin's Boff layout is something that needs to be addressed however. Obviously, I tested Mirror Qin against Patrol Escort, because they are both Lvl40 ships that are free (or essentially free) and match up nicely. The standard Qin and its fleet counterpart however instead have the Tactical ensign, leading many to compare it to the Defiant, which as a C-store ship has numerous differences and only furthers the gap at the Fleet level. Because the Qin matches up so much more closely to the Patrol (and standard Advanced) escorts, and due to the limited number of KDF fleet ships, I now firmly believe that the Fleet Qin should be upgraded to a universal ensign slot, to bring it in line with Fleet Patrol Escort twin.
Other than an adjustment to Boff layout, and possibly a slight turning enhancement, now more than ever I do not understand the many complaints about the Qin Raptor. The Qin is an excellent ship.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Nice work on the comparison. Might get some KDF players to rethink 'conventional wisdom' about a really fun ship.
...Or I find $300 spare change so I can grab a LTS for the Peghqu', or if the BoP buff makes the class as a whole a little more resilient...
The field was even.
But after the Starbase / Fleet Ship System introduction, that changed completely, along with the introduction of the C-Store Akira, which if you recall had huge ramifications for the game due to the "complete package" nature of it. The Fed 5 TAC Console Escorts came about and handled better than the Raptors, and they still do, in addition being able to wield more firepower and have more options.
Anyways, I can go on, but the Power Creep left the Raptors behind in PVP. LOR just confirmed their deaths, because they were already long dead in PVP before LOR.
The standard cloak of the Qin is a detriment to the ship in PVP, because like alot of the older ships, it pays a price for its benefits like a weaker shield mod. PVP can be quite fluid, and an opportunity to apply standard cloak can be few in between. So the Raptor is usually found stuck in combat because it cannot get away and cloak like Warbirds and any other Battle Cloak capable ship can do. Their maneuverability is subpar these days (there are players complaining about 14-15 turn rates, y'know), esp. when comparing to the very high octane, newer Escorts and completley OP RRW and its Warbirds. There is nothing impressive about its firepower these days. There is no 5 forward weapons, no 5 TAC Consoles, and definitely not a combination of the 2, and lacking the maneuverability. The Fed Fleet Escorts still trump them. And again, they will be stuck in combat in these conditions facing superior ships with weaker shielding, weaker maneuverability, and firepower that is average to today's game.
Again, the Raptors performed well in the first year or two of the game. After that, it started falling behind to the current state we see it in: Practically nonexistent.
As guys said it doesnt have enough fire power to hit and run, not enough heals and shields to stay and fight and the chances to run away and wait for the cloak to engage are very very limited...
In STFs you die only a bit more easy than Fed escorts (the free ones I ve used so far..probably the price you pay for the cloak I suppose) and can do a lot of damage if supported enough...for a free ship is good.
Dont know what will do in the future but for now I ll keep using it...:)
Can you point me to this "i-win-cloak"?
Must be eluding me for the last 4 years.
You are talking about romulan ships, right?
KDF ships op, sure... :rolleyes:
Is this another poorly concieled attempt of yet another complaining about the cloak in a thread that discusses a particular ship and has nothing to do with this?
About the OP:
Yes, I've said it before, I'll say it again - the Mirror Qin is a good solid ship, I have 3 of them that were all in use untill recently. Now only one of them is in use, but that's because my the other 2 KDF chars that used her got a Krenn and a Mogh now, so I wanted to add a little variety when I play.
I guess and after reading most of the replies here I'm even more certain that the complaints comming about the Qin and the turn axis are probably mostly regarding the PvP, which admitedly I'm not big on.
PvE wise, I have used the ship to great success and fun - it's really good raptor that has good damage and just enough survivability to make her worthvile.
Same here. Love the MU Qin and proud of it, but moved to a Fleet Mogh for the time being (and named it in honor of the MU Qin). If I ever go LTS I'd be doing it to welcome the Fleet Pegh to the family, but that's a lot for a pew pew ship.
So for me, raptors - the linebackers or centres/flyhalf of the KDF (in American football and rugby terms) will have to stand by. (Battlecruisers are defensive line or forwards, BoP's are the defensive backs or wings/fullbacks)
Btw, big thanks thanks to the OP for doing the research. Impressive. How long did all that take you?
Addicted: January 2012
batlh QIH 'ej!
The Qin on the other hand originates from another era and design philosophy: Balance. Taking the example form the opening post: Mirror Qin again has the initiative when/how to engage, yet the patrol escort has better shields and turn to overcome this. Qin has a clear advantage at the beginning of the battle, but over time the patrol escort could shake the Qin of and win.
This might not be perfect balance, and there are so much more fed escorts vs KDF raptors, sure, and Romulans... they're another story. But it's certainly the better variant than straight out superior ships, which those bashing the Qin are usually advocating for.
Thus my initial points stand: Qins biggest opponents are not fed ships, but other -superior- klingon vessels. It's not outclassed by fed escorts, but mainly dwarfed by some of its sister ships and their design philosophy.
And before the mogh there was no lt. comm. tact viable a2b battlecruiser. On the other hand the feds already had the fleet excel which was on par with the galor.
Now if you didnt know, ships like the varanus lose 10% shields compared to sci ship for absolutely 0 reason.
Plus normal cloak is cool but doesnt help during combat.
You're talking about balance of the Qin in the face of even the Fed Escorts? And the stuff that passes as OP with the Warbirds? You're talking about balance when ships all over the place are getting Universal BOFF stations? You're talking about balance when ships all over the place have 2 out of the 3 departments (SCI, TAC, ENG) with LtCdr or higher? You're talking about balance with Escorts flying around with high speed and maneuverability while having Cruiser-level Shield Mods and hulls approaching old Cruiser values?
Even the "older" Fed Escorts of the Defiant and Prometheus types outclass the Qin.
Standard cloaks amount to little once you come out. Because once removed and you're engaged, you have very little opportunity to reapply it. PVP is oftenly quite fluid and depending on the situation, you can be continuously engaged, thereby removing the chance to apply standard cloaks. Not surprising for 1-2 guys coming in the middle of the fight and prolonging it.
The angle of the Qin and Raptor line was fine before the Fleet Ship / Starbase System. It was fine before the advent of the C-Store Akira. But like alot of the old ships, it's fallen to power creep over time and is obsolete compared to what's flying out there in PVP now. My KDF main still has his first free ship at Lv40 (cap at STO's release), which was a Qin. But I'm not flying that death trap in PVP anytime soon.
Klingon vessels pay for what they have, which the same cannot be said with alot of stuff out there that they prospectively face. The Qin is the epitome of that for the KDF. As someone mentioned above me, in PVP you will find KDF players gravitate to either of these ships:
Carriers - Vo'Quv/Mirror Vo'Quv, Kar'Fi
BoPs
Battlecruisers
Raptors are extinct in KDF PVP altogether. It's been quite a few moons since I saw one in a match. And for good reason.
Thats kinda why I did this project. So many people whine about the inferiority of the Qin, its supposed fragility and turn limitations and the uselessness of the cloak, and all the anger they justify in the name of this terrible wrong. One would think it was the worst ship in the game, like flying a T4 at endgame. Instead lo and behold, its just as solid as any other level-40 free ship, a near perfect match to the yardstick escort by which all other escorts are measured. And at the Fleet level, it only needs a minor tweak (universal ensign; Imma keep banging that drum!) to stay even. I think people have gotten so spoiled by Romulan this and lockbox that they're throwing away a good, solid, dependable ship. It certainly doesn't justify so much complaining.
I don't disagree, but I think the point by your own logic then is that the problem is not the Qin itself, but the PVP environment (I'll have to take your word for it there; I can't stand PVP) and the game's power creep. The Qin measures solidly with any other pre-S6 ship (other than the Bug of course), having pretty much the same mobility, durability, and offense as the Fed counterparts it was balanced against, plus an extra thats wonderfully handy in PVE. It hasn't kept up with all the over-specialized gimmick ships (Scimitar, Recluse, Kumari, WTF?), but the same can be said for a lot of ships. The fault lays with the power creep and the people who buy it, not any one left-behind ship.
Geared the ships up in December, and since then just made it a point to use them when my mood turned to "I wanna blow stuff up" during my regular gaming. As per Adam Savage, "The difference between TRIBBLE around and science is writing it down."
As patrickngo explained, the supposed advantage of a larger crew on Klingon ships is actually a serious disadvantage.
So on Klingon ships which have the same crew as their Federation counterparts, the Klingon version ends up with a weaker shield mod, like the Vet destroyer. On the Mogh vs Avenger you mention, the Mogh is in a bad position since it has 4 times the crew of the Avenger so it takes 4 times as long to regenerate the crew but exactly as long to disable them as on the Avenger. Yes that may sound counterintuitive but that's how game mechanics work. So there you have your disadvantage loud and clear: the Avenger can actually regenerate its crew during combat while the Mogh can't thus its "Team"-abiliteis are less effecte just like its basic hull regeneration.
This is what another forum goer once called "short game" vs "long game" with their cloak the KDF players play the short game since their bigger crew means they lose out rather qiuckly on hull regen in cmbat so their stnadard cloak is there to give them a minor advantage at the beginning of the battle while protracted combat gives their Starfleet counterparts the advantage.
My best guess would be the DS9 Technical Manual, which contains lots and lots of faulty data.
The Nebula has a dratically smaller width than the Galaxy in that book...which makes perfect sense since the widest point of both ships is the saucer and the saucer is the same on both ships right...right?:rolleyes:
The K't'inga in that book is listed at a length of roughly 350 meters and a crew of 800 (the number it has in this game).
And then this would only work if the D7 and the K't'inga were of drastically different sizes and the Star Trek Encyclopedia, which gives the K't'ingas as 228 meters, was totally wrong.
[The idea once presented in another thread that the change from the D7 to the K't'ing is a refit that increases the by roughly 50% in all dimensions while keeping the propotions the same is...physically impossible.]
We know from "Day of the Dove" that the crew of a D7 is 400 + about a dozen and from "The Enterprise Incident" that the D7 is noticably smaller than the Constitution from a schematic
http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090218231813/memoryalpha/en/images/a/a0/Constitution-D7_class_comparison.jpg
which has in green in the upper right corner a scalin indicator so the ships are to scale the schematic.
Also production notes tell us it was designed to be smaller.
This faulty data in the DS9TM also explains why Geko said he wouldn't make a Negh'var sized K'vort...because the DS9TM gives a faulty size the ship never had in any episode: length 678.36 meters with a crew of 1,500 *facepalm*
The Vor'cha is given with a crew of 1,900 and the Negh'var with 2,500 in that book.
My guess is that's where the gigantic numbers come from...which may be right on the Negh'var and Vor'cha if we assume that they count crew and ground troops just like the 1,000 on the Galaxy includes civis and children as well.
It has less volume than a risian corvette, probably not enough room for one person to stand inside the neck and only has windows on the saucer section (hull is also very thin).
Yet, it has a crew complement of 800
I suppose it's 50 warriors and 750 tribbles in the kitchen.
Back on topic, i have no idea why one would take a qin over a somraw unless you dont have access to it.
Back before LOR (heck, before even the WW where they gave away the Chel Grett first time round) my ship of choice was a Qin. I moved to a Mirror Qin (bought from exchange) when someone I PvP'd with once suggested I might like the layout better and I stuck with the Mirror Qin. I loved it.
When the Chel Grett came out, I will admit I switched to that. Sacrificing the cloak for extra survivability was a no-brainer. Lost out on alpha-strikes, but could last longer and an extra weapon slot didn't hurt either.
Put a better cloak on the Qin/Mirror Qin and I would honestly switch back to it again for a good long while.
Jo Cox 22.6.1974 - 16.6.2016
Well, first of all, not all KDF ships have large crews. That's only the battlecruiser department, the Birds of Prey and Raptors have sensible crews and the carriers are Cryptic's own invention so I'm not going to comment on that.
Now, why do Klingon battlecruisers have such large crews? I found the answer to that in the many Klingon themed ST books I've read, although they are considered soft canon. Basically, the Klingons see the battlecruisers as their command ships of the fleets and the heart of any operation. The large crew does not fall on the crew numbers neccessary to operate the starship, but rather on the numbers of professionaly trained ground invasion troops that are present on any battlecruiser. Klingons use the battlecruisers to fulfill many roles both in war and in peace, but one thing that is consistent in Klingon history is their thirst for battle and their search for conquest. The idea is to have a full complement of as many highly trained professional warriors of the KDF present on any ship that can support such numbers (in the Klingon case the battlecruiser department cause their other lines are very small and compact ships) so when the opportunity arises, even a single ship can start a ground invasion on a planet or a part of a planet, dependant on population.
House of Beautiful Orions
PUNISH THE FEDs
Yeah you're right, that too. Klingons do love boarding parties and taking over a ship in hand to hand combat.
Though i don't think I'll move back to my Mirror Qin though as I enjoy Tac focused cruisers mostly and the Mogh fills that void for me on KDF side very well.