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feedback: crew recovery
noroblad
Member Posts: 2,624 Arc User
The recovery and death rate of large crew ships is out of balance. A large ship can do a quick battle, such as one of the romulan patrol missions, never go below a yellow shield on any facing, and have 1/2 or more dead crew with a 2 min recovery period before the ship can fight again. If you do the same mission back to back just to get done quickly, you must either fight with dead crew or sit there for ages. Also, if you 'die' the crew is dead when you respawn.
Lower crewed ships do not have this issue: a few crew are taken out, but they are back again in just a few seconds. Even after a respawn, the crew is back in a flash on a small escort.
Compounding issue: ships like the haakona that can divide, the AI controlled half tends to get itself blown up, killing a large % of the crew and leaving you with a massive recovery delay.
Yes, there are consoles that help, but are you really going to recommend using them with a straight face? There are simply not enough console slots -- I do have one dyson box shield heal / crew recovery console but even that is a wasted console slot in the long run (he has nothing better yet).
I can accept that crew death/recovery is part of the disadvantage of a big ship. So what I would suggest here is a giant boost to recovery when in sector space, and a 100% crew respawn when the ship respawns. In combat or in the middle of a mission, it can remain as-is. Or, do a 100% recovery when entering sector space. The goal here is to allow the large ships to enter a new mission at full capacity, nothing more.
And yes, I do carry recovery consoles in my hold to swap in so healing in sector space is faster. Which is annoying.
Lower crewed ships do not have this issue: a few crew are taken out, but they are back again in just a few seconds. Even after a respawn, the crew is back in a flash on a small escort.
Compounding issue: ships like the haakona that can divide, the AI controlled half tends to get itself blown up, killing a large % of the crew and leaving you with a massive recovery delay.
Yes, there are consoles that help, but are you really going to recommend using them with a straight face? There are simply not enough console slots -- I do have one dyson box shield heal / crew recovery console but even that is a wasted console slot in the long run (he has nothing better yet).
I can accept that crew death/recovery is part of the disadvantage of a big ship. So what I would suggest here is a giant boost to recovery when in sector space, and a 100% crew respawn when the ship respawns. In combat or in the middle of a mission, it can remain as-is. Or, do a 100% recovery when entering sector space. The goal here is to allow the large ships to enter a new mission at full capacity, nothing more.
And yes, I do carry recovery consoles in my hold to swap in so healing in sector space is faster. Which is annoying.
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If you ask me it shouldn't even be part of the game. Have your skill points and other factors tie into hull recovery. Just remove crew entirely from the equation.
I could do a quick search of the countless threads on the matter, but a quick look showed more folks complaining about playing Barbie 'n Ken The Star Trek Fashionstravaganza and dressing their crew than any mechanics behind them...meh. I know there are countless threads out there though...I've posted in countless threads on crew complaining about them being broken. A quick search shows I have 209 posts with the term crew in them (that's only counting posts since they redid the forums back in 2012 again)...
...but yeah, it would definitely be nifty if they either did take a look at them or took a look at removing them as a mechanic that affected anything.
I'm guessing that if they knew how to remove them easily, they would know how to fix them easily.
But yeah, it's broken. Crew on my Ody dies like crazy, crew on my FAE barely dies at all.
FTR, I'm all for plain removing the whole crew thingy.
But yeah, just the wording of it (and even the logic, imho) of the crew loss tooltips suggests something far different than what happens.
"Lesser" reads (to me and some others) as if the actual lesser of the two numbers should be removed. However, the way it actually works is that the larger amount will be removed to result in a "lesser" amount of crew remaining.
An attack on a smaller crewed vessel that might take out a few folks can take out hundreds on a larger crewed ship. IMHO, it's epic /facepalm. With that change alone, it would change so much...but I've been saying that for years and nada.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The crew dies instantly, and it affects hull repair, subsystem repair, and a number of other things. That means my Oddy can take one sneeze at the beginning of a match, lose 100% of its crew, and NEVER get it back the entirety of the fight. That means I'm suffering pretty badly in hull regeneration %. You can see this in your stats if you bring them up. The difference between a full crew and NO crew is massive in terms of hull regen alone.
The thing is, with everybody basically losing them...it ends up being basically a non-factor...moot. They simply die too easily to be counted - so they're dismissed. Even if somebody breaks out all sorts of biofunction/force fields - Theta will annihilate them.
Lol, I don't loose them easily, then again, I run around with the Jem'Hadar set. If you use the Jem shields and the two part Adapted MACO bonus, you get a nice crew resistance without sacrificing console space. That being said, the crew system kind of sucks, and removing them would probably be a pain to devs since there are a lot of items to change. Heck, they still have the [StI] (Structural Integrity) bonus from the deflectors mapped to shields and they don't fix it, I can't imagine them having to delete/change a lot of items without them TRIBBLE something up badly.
Heh, I saw that again the other day when buying a Deflector for a fresh 50 - had forgotten about that.
There are many things - countless things - forgotten things that are broken here and there with the game. They have trouble keeping up with what some would consider game-breaking things, much less dealing with the mess that's crew, eh?
Could you imagine if they did a full known issues doohickey for each patch notes? Trippy...would need multiple posts because of the character limit.
^This... Crew is totally broken. One torpedo and bam your crew is vaporized be they over 3,000 or just 5. Having them die by percentiles is plain broken and makes having more useless.
Then there is the recovery part the OP is talking about which again punishes the large vessel which has to wait to get full benefit from its crew forever. If they are going to die by % can they at least come back that way too?
I must say... Either fix Crew altogether or get rid of it altogether.
Ideally it's a great thing. Large ships have huge crews that can fix up the ship with ease. But the problem is that torps and other such kinetic weapons deal % crew less instead of straight up numbers. Now if it did what it was supposed to and deal straight up numbers, then the larger crews would be an advantage. As is, it's actually a disadvantage to have a larger crew since hull and SSR happens based on % of alive crew members.
Long story short, cruisers, a lot of warbirds, and cross faction ships (IE recluse, bulwark, etc) get shafted.
Interestingly enough, it seems that only fed and rommie ships have crew loss issues... I have never had heavy crew losses on ANY KDF battlecruiser I have ever flown. I guess dem Klingons just build better ships
It says you lose X% or X number of crew. Which is true, you do lose it like that. Problem arises when you are on a big ship, and that % is much larger. In return, crew can only come back at a certain speed. You can put consoles in to help, but you give up so much for it, you might as well not even bother.
But the hull repair and subsystem repair does work as it should based on crew, it IS working.
I feel, at the absolute least, if they do nothing else, they should make it 1% and 2% respectively.
So instead of having some level 1 NPC Miranda fire off it's uber-weak photon torpedo at me, not even scratch my shields, yet instantly 300 people are dead, and another 600 are injured. It'd be more like 30 people were dead, and 60 were injured.
Still ridiculous that a puny NPC like that could do it, but it would be less frustrating.
Yes crew loss % is too damn high!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I can refute that. I fly a MU Vo'Quv on my KDF sci, and she loses crewmembers hand over fist in every engagement. And it takes 4-8 minutes (depending on just how many have been lost) out of combat, to bring her up to 100% alive & able crew. So it's not just a Fed or Rihan issue.
butcher suspect, "What'd you hit me with?"
Temperance Brennan, "A building"
And my crew rarely dies. Seriously, I'm convinced that this ship recovers crew far faster than any other ship I fly, even ones on the same character. I suspect that part of the tanking factor of this ship is that lack of crew loss, and why, I have no idea. I have often wondered if it's just part of this particular class (medical ship after all) but there's no indication of it anywhere.
If crew worked properly, I believe my Gumball Machine of DOOM!!! would be what EVERY ship in the game acted like. No one would ever be able to kill anyone without one shotting them.
It generally says Y% you lose lesser of X or X%. The lesser part is important, imho.
Say we've got (not logged in, can't look):
50% to lose lesser of 20 or 20%.
The lesser of 20 or 20%, eh? Say there's 4000 crew, so 20% would be 800 crew. The lesser of 20 or 800...well, to me - the lesser number would be 20. So 20 crew would be lost. Say there's 50 crew, so 20% would be 10 crew. The lesser of 20 or 10...well, to me - the lesser number would be 10.
But it doesn't work that way. It's the number that will result in less crew. So for the 4000 crew example, 800 crew is lost instead of 20 - and - for the 50 crew, 20 would be lost instead of 10.
Which is where I've asked for it to remove the lesser amount instead of the amount that results in the lesser remaining crew.
Looking at our 4000 and 50 crews again, it would work like the following...
50 Crew
20 or 10; 40
20 or 8; 32
20 or 7; 25
20 or 5; 20
20 or 4; 16
20 or 4; 12
20 or 3; 9
20 or 2; 7
20 or 2; 5
20 or 1; 4
20 or 1; 3
20 or 1; 2
20 or 1; 1
20 or 1; 0
4000 Crew
20 or 800; well...
You'd lose 20 crew until you went below 95 crew. Which would be the 100 to 80 crew hit. then you'd go from 80 to 64 from losing 16 crew...etc, etc, etc - repeating a cycle similar to what we saw with the 50 crew.
Folks could potentially still look to crew resistance and regen, because with the crew regen being a static number...it's still going to take longer to regen to the percentage required for better bonuses on larger crewed ships.
But at least the loss would better reflect what we saw on the shows...who remembers the Enterprise-D taking a hit from a torp and losing 200 crew in a single hit? Yeah...didn't happen that way.
Could be the ship - could be a gearing thing. For a period of time after they fixed the KHG bonuses, my guy in his Fleet T'varo wouldn't lose crew. Could hit up CCE with him and compare it to other ships - he wouldn't lose crew while others would bleed crew in a blink of an eye. In the interim, they've fixed that...but there's been a few instances of things like that. Could be gear or the ship itself, eh?
Thats hardly minor in my opinion considering that with a full crew the rate is only 75%, including bonuses from equipment and AtD1.
Nothing I have done or equiped seems to buff crew or help them survive. They die by the hundreds from even one torp strike against full shields.
R.I.P
The fleet RSV has a whopping 400 crew. Indeed, you will have no problems at all. The problem shows up at 1500+ crew, roughly, though of course it scales and bigger is worse. Give it a try on something bigger. I have no problems on a similar size crewed escort that is not at all durable -- the crew die, and they come back almost instantly.
Outside that?
I firmly stand by two things:
1) You don't fly starships. You fly graveyards with a warpcore attached.
2) If they flipped the crews of carriers (4,000 - 3,000) with escorts (100 - 200) this problem would have been fixed within a week.
Edit: It's almost clasic. You sneeze, half the bridge consoles explode is sparks, and you hear "Doctor to the bridge!" as almost a prayer chant or something.
Hm... well I never had any issues keeping my crew alive on my Fleet Tor'kaht. Maybe it's just cuz my bird is sexier than yours XD.
Jokes aside, I seriously never had ANY problems on ANY Klingon ship I've flown. The Orion, Gorn, Nausicaan, and cross factions have that issue, but my KDF Battlecruisers (yeah, if you're a klingon, you fly BATTLECRUISERS or BoPs. Raptors are a joke.) never do. Weird.
I firmly agree with point #1 and the edit.
I will also add that it is nice that they finally added shields to your warp cores so the Borg cannot arbitrarily beam a plasma torp into your core and blow you apart on a whim. Because we all know they did that. Which is why the torps weren't invisible. They just never bothered to shoot them, instead being EFFICIENT (they are borg) and just cutting out the travel time and only having the kersplosion.
I will ALSO add (slightly more on topic) that if crew worked how it SHOULD... ie larger crews fixing things faster, basically giving a much higher base hull regen and SSR rate, and crew regenerated at a percentage base, instead of a fixed quantity... then crew would actually be an advantage... instead of just more corpses for me to recycle back into my replicator (which we all know our ships do... or else we would be having memorial services 24/7 on our ships and we'd never get ANYTHING else done...).
Ha!
collective: "We are the borg. You will be assli..." - earth shattering kaboom- "... exploded?"
7 of 11: "Would you believe I sneezed on the transporter console?"
1 of 2: "Near a starfleet ship? Are you mad? I am so telling the queen!"
Ignore absolute value crews or crew loss. Make it wholly and completely percentage based.
Pro:
No more relatively nonexistent crew recoveries.
Con:
It is my understanding that large ships where given large crews (and hulls lined with crates of high-explosives) to make up for the fact their hull is just as crunchy as tiny little tinfoil scout ships.
It putting tiny little tinfoil scout ships on the same footing as bigger then small cities carriers or cruisers would negate the entire rational of them all having near the same base hull values.
In combat though its 78.23% before any kinetic/ crew killing damage is taken. After the first strike of torp (or what not) that takes my crew down to say 1743 out of 2000 my hull repair rate drops to anywhere between 23-35%.
Why such a huge drop in value? Why do torps and other kinetic damagers do such huge crew deaths numbers?
R.I.P
They do such huge death numbers because they work on a Percentile of your crew as damage rather than a number. That means if they hit for 10% of 2,000 crew then you are going to lose 200 crew.
Unless what you are asking is why should they be that devastating in which case I have no clue... The Devs apparently just thought ships should generally run with 0 crew alive.
At least I now have an idea where the ferengi cnsortium has gotten all the ships they sell in the lobi store. They just wait until after a major battle and scoop up all the left over barely damaged ships whose crew have all rapidly died off.
R.I.P
Quoted for Hilarity.
% makes big ships pay to high a price. Especially since the bar is 100% the ****ions all run on percentages, so small ships actually gain from the effect as opposed to loosing out.
The entire system to hard numbers. no more percentages.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
And while the whole thing may work 'as intended' (as suggested earlier in this thread), it doesn't mean it isn't broken; because conceptually I think it certainly is. A larger crew should give you better protection, much like a larger army is better able to defend itself than a smaller one. Duh, almost.
Honestly, you shouldn't have to go: "OMG! I have a 2,500 crew complement on my large Ody: I can forget about hull-regen now." Whilst your 750 crew Escort is still alive and well. That's the bizarro world.