Second of all, the D'deridex was a former flagship while the scimitar was an outlier (reman and not Romulan, and by all accounts, the ship was never mass produced). Therefore, shouldn't the D'deridex have been released as a three pack and the scimitar as a lobi ship?
I totally agree. The D'D should've been the C-store 3 pack and the Scimi a Lobi store ship. The reason Cryptic didn't do this is beyond me. I think it comes down to what Captain Geko likes personally and what he thinks is cool. And he thought the Scimi is cooler than the D'D. This is the only thing I can think of.
Cryptic has made bad decisions regarding the iconic Trek Ships in the game and these bad decisions are seen in every faction not just here with the Romulans. Galaxy, B-rel, D'Deridex. It's a shame really because to me it's the iconic Trek ships that would bring in the most money.
And Drunk's recommended layout here is spot on:
COM tac
LTC sci
LTC eng
LT eng
3/3/4 consoles
8 turn rate
37k hull
1.1 shield mod
As somebody who quite often flies a heals/tank in PvP, I can't begin to count how many times Quantum Singularity Manipulation has made me immortal. You think you finally have me, and *BAMF*, I'm gone, turned around behind you, healed to full, and back into the fray again I go.
If I had a battle cloak and singularity powers as well... I would never die.
I'm guessing that last bit is a spelling error... because you do have a battle cloak and singularity powers as well
Anyhow, I think people are missing the point to this threads origin - the Double D, whilst an ok Ship, just falls flat compared to the other Romulan ships of its level out there.
Yes, it can tank, yes it can do dps - but it's nothing special for such an iconic ship (which is why the poor thing gets so much flak!)
It's very rare I ever see one in PvP and if they do appear, they're promptly vapourised! And they're the ones sporting over 65k HPs..
Honestly, even my Scimmy does better than the Double D at tanking.. and as for the DPS.. well.. (Scimmy bashing is for another post )
The consoles that come with the C-Store ship as well.. very "meh", but then personally, I have a habit of dropping those in any case and fitting things more useful. Most consoles from these packs are "Gimmicky" at best.
If I, personally had the choice, I'd change it's layout slighty for the Retro fit & Fleet:
Boff seating:
Commander Universal (from engineer) (4 slots)
Liet. Comm Science (3 slots)
Liet. Comm Engineer (3 slots)
Liet. Universal (removing the two ensigns) (2 slots) though tactical would probably be better
With that Boff layout, you're free to choose whether you want it tact, eng or even sci.
Bump its turn rate up to 7
Leave its console slots as is.
That would make this ship a winner in my eyes and probably OP in others with some yelling rubbish! :P
Still, would be nice to bring them out again instead of sat, collecting dust in the shipyard.. :cool:
Oh, and the standard Double D Boff layout would require a slight tweak as well if they went ahead and changes the other two :cool:
no, its not. cruiser got better turn and speed and got cruiser area buffs.
The D'deridex is called the "Fleet Warbird Battle Cruiser". Under the Cruiser Commands chart URL="http://sto.perfectworld.com/news/?p=997641"]Link[/URL, Romulan Warbird Battle Cruiser are specifically exempt from the Cruiser commands. The reason for that being? Their Singularity powers effectively provide an extra Commander Science bridge officer station worth of abilities.
no, its not. there are lot of ships with lt.com. or commander universal, interchangeable battle modes and so on.
I said the D'deridex was "one of the most versatile cruisers in the game", that is an accurate statement. All Federation Cruisers are tied somewhere between Tactical Extreme (Assault Cruiser), Tanking Purity (Exploration Cruiser), and Science Extreme (Support Cruiser). They are tied to two of the three areas of expertise. The same is true for Klingon Battle Cruisers, they excel at two areas, but not all three. The D'Deridex is designed to do all three well without going over the top. The ship's console and bridge officer layout reflects this fact. The player behind the ship could use the ship to do all cruiser styled tasks, or they could hyper-focus the build in order to focus on one specific area.
well, i can "use" miranda to do borg elite stf. its "useful" for a challenge
Ah, you are one of those people. Some people call flying a Miranda in an Elite STF a challenge, others call that leeching. The ship only has three weapon slots and three ensign bridge officer abilities. It can't tank, it can't deal damage, and it can't crowd control.
man, its about fulfilling the role, to specialize the ship in one way or another. and in every specified role ha'apax WILL outperform the d'd.
Which of the two ships can use Gravity Well I, Eject Warp Plasma III, and Torpedo Spread III on the same ship at the same time? Oh, right, the D'deridex. There are numerous layouts the D'deridex may perform where the Ha'apax cannot.
for example on damage dealer mode d'd got 5 attack abilities, on contrary ha'apax got 6 as well as "heavy destroyer" assault mode with more power, turn, speed and support from guardian.
and so on in every possible way.
Trading in a high end Science damage dealing ability for a Lt. level Tactical weapon attack is quite a significant tradeoff. Also, in order to engage that "heavy destroyer assault mode", you need the console, which drops your ship to 9 console slots.
nonsense. its literally means greater that your hull can soak much more. in situation where 4 eng ship will die, the ha'apax will survive with 20-30% hull "to fight another day".
You need to go back and re-familiarize yourself with the damage resistance rating diminishing returns formula URL="http://sto.gamepedia.com/Damage_resistance"]Link[/URL. You are wasting valuable console slots if you are using 5 Fleet Neutronium consoles, you want 2 Neutronium consoles, 3 at the very most. Anything tanking will be carrying multiple healing abilities with damage resistance buffs. The tank will also have the Tier IV Dyson +0-75 all damage resistance rating passive. The diminishing returns stack up to the point where using more than 2-3 Neutroniums becomes illogical.
hahaha. you still didn't realized it, do you? you worry about your shield down? on ha'apax you start with bigger shields.
then with enough resists on hull and some skills you will soak damage up to the point where beam overload will barely scratch you.
You have never PvPed, have you? Hull tanking without Shield tanking will result in a dead tank. This is what happens when you attempt to hull tank while ignoring shields. A torpedo high yield III Critical hit for 100,000 is still going to be 50,000 damage to bare hull with 50% damage resistance. A Beam Overload III 80,000 Critical hit is still 40,000 to bare hull with 50% damage resistance. No shields = death, plain and simple. The Fleet Ha'pax may have 0.05 (5%) more shields than the D'deridex, but the D'deridex has 550 more base hull than the Ha'pax. The difference will be marginal.
then also you have to waste 2 console slots for 2-set to overcome the sluggishness.
for example on ha'apax you can sacrifice 1 of eng slots for vector separation.
so while having on both ships 4 slots for resist to get them in to comparable line on shield tanking:
d'd base 1.1, ha'apax 1.15 + guardian mode 10%.
d'd have to waste 2 sci slots for 2-set ends up with 1 field gens, ha'apax with 2 gens.
you end up having on ha'apax more speed (hello speed defense bonus), better turn and more shields then d'd.
There is nothing forcing you to take the two piece set on the D'deridex, you could always use RCS Accelerators to improve turn rate. You are also neglecting to mention that by using Dual Vector separation, the ship is sacrificing it's hull, shields, and subsystem power to obtain bonuses in other areas. The ship also doesn't increase the base turn rate, it simply adds a flat rate bonus.
Even with Dual Vector active, the ship will never turn like a Ha'feh Assault Warbird. If the player attempts to go with a Science setup, they will fail miserably due to a lack of Science console slots.
you mean "not to mention guardian +5 shield +15 aux power"?
you mean "not to mention 5 science skills ha'apax can take in to battle"?
you mean "not to mention 8 weapons and 3 tac consoles which no science ship have"?
You neglect to mention the fact that you lose 5 Engine Power and 10 Weapon Power in the process, how convenient :rolleyes:. Secondly, two console slots is going to severely hamper the ability to use Science abilities effectively. Third, if you knew anything about Science Vessels, you would know that weapon slots and Tactical consoles are not a highly important part of flying a successful Science Vessel.
have you ever read what vector separation can do? no you don't....
URL="http://sto.gamepedia.com/Console_-_Universal_-_Dual_Vector_Separation"]Link[/URL That would be a yes, it sacrifices hull/shield strength and power levels for bonus power, turn rate, and impulse speed. Anything using the console isn't going to tank as well as a normal cruiser in PvP, the console essentially drops the hull (and shield for escort mode) to escort levels. However, the console doesn't provide that extra impulse modifier or defense bonus that all escorts enjoy.
well, even the yellowstones happen to survive to 5 star rank.
Again, you've never PvPed before, have you? Those Dual Vectors also have a much higher threat generator than Yellowstones. If they aren't destroyed by borg in three shots, they will be destroyed by a single warp core breach.
really? you was worrying about tss3 and gravity well. can you change those without disengaging?
ha'apax can bear 2 tss2, 2 hazards AND gw1 at the same time WITHOUT disengaging.
and both tss as well as gw will do more with additional +15 aux power.
In the process, the Ha'apax loses the ability to slot Attack Pattern Delta II, Omega I, or a level 3 weapon ability. What does it lose in exchange for that extra +15 Auxiliary? Oh right, 9.1% hull, -5 Engine Power, -10 Weapon Power, and -500 Crew. It also still lacks one Science console slot compared to the D'Deridex.
2) You need to stop arguing with alfamega. He's a close minded person who refuses to see the Double D as anything but TRIBBLE, which is why I left my main post, a few follow-ups, and then more or less ignored his "counters" which are really just nit-picky commentary.
It comes down to this:
The D'deridex is actually a great ship. It can be used extremely effectively, and cover multiple roles, ALL WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE A SINGLE BOff. Anyone who says it's TRIBBLE really should go back and try again, only do it intelligently. She can be made to work incredibly well. And if you fail at her, it's ok. But don't insult her by calling her TRIBBLE when there are hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of players who have gotten their double D to work great magic.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
In that case, why would he even need to slot Neutronium consoles at all? I'd just toss on two Fleet Enhanced RCS Accelerators with [AllRes]. Chain Attack Pattern Omega I + Auxiliary to Inertial Dampers I + Emergency Power to Engines I + Shields I. Toss on Auxiliary to Structural Integrity Field II + Hazard Emitters I + Transfer Shield Strength II + Gravity Well I + Eject Warp Plasma III (or Directed Energy Modulation + Marion). Throw in Fire at Will I + II with 6 Romulan Plasma Arrays + Experimental Plasma Array + Cutting Beam and call it a day, it would make a fine D'deridex.
3 Fleet Plasma Consoles, 3 Fleet Emitter Arrays with +Pla, and the Zero Point Energy Conduit for the two piece bonus. That pseudo five tactical console slot D'deridex that will leave the Ha'apax in the dust, both for crowd control and damage.
2) You need to stop arguing with alfamega. He's a close minded person who refuses to see the Double D as anything but TRIBBLE, which is why I left my main post, a few follow-ups, and then more or less ignored his "counters" which are really just nit-picky commentary.
Fair enough, I was attempting to help him see the error of his ways, but you may be right. It is possible he is too close minded to take in outside opinions.
2) You need to stop arguing with alfamega. He's a close minded person who refuses to see the Double D as anything but TRIBBLE, which is why I left my main post, a few follow-ups, and then more or less ignored his "counters" which are really just nit-picky commentary.
It comes down to this:
The D'deridex is actually a great ship. It can be used extremely effectively, and cover multiple roles, ALL WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE A SINGLE BOff. Anyone who says it's TRIBBLE really should go back and try again, only do it intelligently. She can be made to work incredibly well. And if you fail at her, it's ok. But don't insult her by calling her TRIBBLE when there are hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of players who have gotten their double D to work great magic.
I greatly appreciate the suggestions all of you posted in this thread. I am definitely convinced that one can make a decent build with the d'deridex for pve but that's about it. One thing that bothers me in some of the comparisons is that you keep saying that X boff ability would make the d'deridex great if you had Y doff. Well, my response is that a ship should be able to stand on it's own without needing special doffs. Vanilla fleet dderidex is still sorely lacking in pvp when compared to the scimitar and mogai. Your only choice is to turn it into a EPB spamfest beam boat which has 0 appeal for me and could be more effectively done anyways by a fed/kling cruiser with higher power levels, stronger shields, and cruiser commands.
So we're left with a jack of all trades warbird cruiser (an oxymoron I might add) that can do average in Sci and tac because it has two Lt. Commanders. This translates to so so pve viability and close to 0 pvp viability as a dps tank boat. Granted, it could be a decent heal boat but not much more than that. So there you have it. The most iconic Romulan ship of all time has been reduced to a heal boat and a so so beam boat. Awesome...
Let me just add that I have some experience flying torp boats so I tried a variety of torp builds. I did a mixed 6 single beam/1 fore and aft plasma torp build. Conclusion: stunk because I couldn't get enough dps out of the beams as well as turn quickly enough to bring enemies into my fore and aft torp arcs. Secondly, I tried the 7 single beams and 1 fore torp build. Conclusion: marginal improvement but still stunk because I couldn't get enough dps out of my beams. Thirdly, I tried some 6/7 single beams with tractor beam mines and/ or quantum mines builds. Conclusion: decent damage over time, lousy dps because I couldn't effectively coordinate my GW's with my mines because by the time my mines would give chase and/or activate tractor beams, the GW's are nearly gone.
The best canon PVE fleet deridex build I came up with was 3 fore disruptor DHC's, 1 fore plasma torp with 3 aft disruptor turrets and 1 aft plasma torp. That being said, I was forced to go with CSV 1 and 2 to get enough dps to able to blow up the Borg bops/raptors caught in my GW's. However, this proved problematic because once I removed APO 1, I was forced to use polarize hull with my ensign univ. Boff or the same with my Lt. Commander Sci boff. Consequently and since GW1 occupied my Lt commander Sci boff's slot, that meant that I had no choice but to put Sci team and hazard emit in my remaining Sci slots because they're indispensable for clearing Borg plasma burn and voth subnukes, respectively. Consequently, I'm pigeon holed into at least one aux to struct integ./eng team on the commander engineer and EPS. Meaning, now I have only two engie abilities left with few choices left. Yes, I could do EP engines 1 or 2 but then I have to have Aux to struct integ 2 or 3. To sum up, it's been super tricky to trick this D'D out. The necessary heals will leave no room for combining essentials like EPW/energy siphon with FAW/CSV/CRF. That's what's most frustrating about the D'D for STF's.
I still have to do some testing with the subspace bop jump console because that and the singularity jump are probably your best bet for lining up your targets with your arcs, besides the battle cloak. I also need to get the projectile doffs to see how well those play out with a cannon/torp hybrid build. I'll let you know how it goes.
I greatly appreciate the suggestions all of you posted in this thread. I am definitely convinced that one can make a decent build with the d'deridex for pve but that's about it. One thing that bothers me in some of the comparisons is that you keep saying that X boff ability would make the d'deridex great if you had Y doff. Well, my response is that a ship should be able to stand on it's own without needing special doffs. Vanilla fleet dderidex is still sorely lacking in pvp when compared to the scimitar and mogai. Your only choice is to turn it into a EPB spamfest beam boat which has 0 appeal for me and could be more effectively done anyways by a fed/kling cruiser with higher power levels, stronger shields, and cruiser commands.
There are very few ships in game that can "stand on it's own without needing special doffs". All of your top dog fed cruisers are reliant on either Damage Control Engineers or Technicians (depending on if they're running an EPtX build or an Aux2bat build). Most escorts are reliant on Energy Weapons Officers (bleedthrough increase) and Conn Officers (evasives reduction/tac team reduction). The vanilla fleet Double D is actually pretty powerful, even without the DOffs. They just make it that much more effective.
Tbh, you can get the DOffs you need with ~5 mil ECs invested. That's not that terribly expensive.
So we're left with a jack of all trades warbird cruiser (an oxymoron I might add) that can do average in Sci and tac because it has two Lt. Commanders. This translates to so so pve viability and close to 0 pvp viability as a dps tank boat. Granted, it could be a decent heal boat but not much more than that. So there you have it. The most iconic Romulan ship of all time has been reduced to a heal boat and a so so beam boat. Awesome...
I would advise you to re-read my first post in this thread. It's "average in sci and tac" is not so average after all, since again, it's a battlecruiser, not a destroyer or an escort. It's designed for good tank with decent DPS. The LtCmdr tac gives it everything it needs for damage (since more often than not, Cmdr Tac is just added gravy) and it's LtCmdr sci gives it crowd control. Most cruisers/battlecruisers lack in that department. I mean how many ships can you think of that can tank like a cruiser, and then drop a GW1, CSV1, and APB2? Not many.
I also must disagree, it's not "so so pve viability and close to 0 pvp viability as a DPS tank boat", it's actually closer to "great PvE viability and marginal PvP viability". Great PvE because you have damage and crowd control, and a decent amount of both, and in all honesty a rommie in PvP not using a T'varo or Scimitar is probably not doing it right.
Also, if you read my first post, you'll see you aren't forced to use a beamboat setup (even though it works very well on this ship), you can instead use a gunship setup (which also works well).
Let me just add that I have some experience flying torp boats so I tried a variety of torp builds. I did a mixed 6 single beam/1 stern and 1 aft plasma torp build. Conclusion: stunk because I couldn't get enough dps out of the beams as well as turn quickly enough to bring enemies into my stern and aft torp arcs. Secondly, I tried the 7 single beams and 1 stern torp build. Conclusion: marginal improvement but still stunk because I couldn't get enough dps out of my beams. Thirdly, I tried some 6/7 single beams with tractor beam mines and/ or quantum mines builds. Conclusion: decent damage over time, lousy dps because I couldn't effectively coordinate my GW's with my mines because by the time my mines would give chase and/or activate tractor beams, the GW's are nearly gone.
Sadly I must agree here. Do NOT run this ship as a torp/mine boat. It can do lots, but it can't do everything XD.
The best canon PVE fleet deridex build I came up with was 3 stern disruptor DHC's, 1 stern plasma torp with 3 aft disruptor turrets and 1 aft plasma torp. That being said, I was forced to go with CSV 1 and 2 to get enough dps to able to blow up the Borg bops/raptors caught in my GW's. However, this proved problematic because once I removed APO 1, I was forced to use polarize hull with my ensign univ. Boff or the same with my Lt. Commander Sci boff. Consequently and since GW1 occupied my Lt commander Sci boff's slot, that meant that I had no choice but to put Sci team and hazard emit in my remaining Sci slots because they're indispensable for clearing Borg plasma burn and voth subnukes, respectively. Consequently, I'm pigeon holed into at least one aux to struct integ./eng team on the commander engineer and EPS. Meaning, now I have only two engie abilities left with few choices left. Yes, I could do EP engines 1 or 2 but then I have to have Aux to struct integ 2 or 3. To sum up, it's been super tricky to trick this D'D out. The necessary heals will leave no room for combining essentials like EPW/energy siphon with FAW/CSV/CRR. That's what's most frustrating about the D'D for STF's.
I still have to do some testing with the subspace bop jump console because that and the singularity jump are probably your best bet for lining up your targets with your arcs, besides the battle cloak. I also need to get the projectile doffs to see how well those play out with a cannon/torp hybrid build. I'll let you know how it goes.
I would suggest this Cannon build for your D'deridex:
Weapons Fore: 3x DHC (energy type and mods up to you), 1x Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo/Quantum Torpedo
Weapons Aft: 2x Turrets, 1x Kinetic Cutting Beam, 1x Tractor Mine Launcher/Nukara Web Mine Launcher (just in case something does get behind you)
Equipment is players choice.
BOffs:
Cmdr Engineering: EPtS1, EPtW2, RSP2, Aux2SIF3/EWP2 (or 3 if you're an engi)
LtCmdr Tactical: TT1, CRF/CSV1, APB2
Ens Tactical: TT1
LtCmdr Science: HE1, TSS2, GW1
Ens Universal: EPtS1 (or another HE1 if you have damage control engineers).
For this particular build, you'd want DOffs that give you reduced cooldown on cannon abilities, but they aren't a must have. They are a nice to have.
With this build, you have great tank (I would know, I run the engi portion on a lot of my cruisers/battlecruisers and they do wonderfully as staying alive goes), good DPS (courtesy of GW, CSV, APB, and a hyper plasma), good utility (HE and TSS for self and team-heals and overall utility), and the GW crowd control.
This particular build enables you to take down groups of enemies, and do decently against singe targets as well. Granted it would be nice if you had a Lt Tactical instead of the double Ensign so you could run a CRF as well in case of single targets, but as is, this build works just fine (I've tested similar builds on other battlecruisers/cruiser variants, and I have as of yet to have issues).
And if you want a beam build, you just need to change up your CSV to BFAW.
See? Not such a lame duck after all.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
There's people that also miss the big opportunity with the Cmdr ENG station. With that station you have options to really boost ENG aspect in itself, or send abilities sitting in TAC or SCI over the edge in effectiveness.
The D'Deridex is the epitome of a hybrid ship, you need to use the ENG stations to augment what you're trying to do in TAC or SCI. And remember, you have the added luxury of Romulan Battle Cloak.
The D'Deridex is designed to do all three well without going over the top.
not the d'd, but haakona. but that not the point.
the point of the discussion is the d'd disappointment, caused by sluggishness of a carrier and overall under-performance in difference to other ships.
Ah, you are one of those people. Some people call flying a Miranda in an Elite STF a challenge, others call that leeching.
leeching? and some one called me "close mined"...
we doing this in our fleet as weekly/monthly event, all-miranda private fleet action.
so i would call your position as a prejudice.
Which of the two ships can use Gravity Well I, Eject Warp Plasma III, and Torpedo Spread III on the same ship at the same time? Oh, right, the D'deridex. There are numerous layouts the D'deridex may perform where the Ha'apax cannot.
and which role in team require weak gw, nearly useless warp plasma and a torp spred at same time? a side from the argument "look, i have them!!!"
Trading in a high end Science damage dealing ability for a Lt. level Tactical weapon attack is quite a significant tradeoff. Also, in order to engage that "heavy destroyer assault mode", you need the console, which drops your ship to 9 console slots.
"high end science" is gw3.
and in order to compensate somewhat sluggishness of d'd you need 2-set, which drops you to 8 consoles.
You are wasting valuable console slots if you are using 5 Fleet Neutronium consoles, you want 2 Neutronium consoles, 3 at the very most.
well, 5th tac console on scimitar is also only a 5% total gain on damage, but strangely no one laughing about a "waste".
there are situations where 5% additional resists, even with diminishing return, means the difference between survive and explosion.
This is what happens when you attempt to hull tank while ignoring shields.
where did i said about ignoring shields? do you like yourself speaking that much that you ignore what other people say or don't say? you know, ignorance isn't a bless.
A torpedo high yield III Critical hit for 100,000 is still going to be 50,000 damage to bare hull with 50% damage resistance. A Beam Overload III 80,000 Critical hit is still 40,000 to bare hull with 50% damage resistance. No shields = death, plain and simple. The Fleet Ha'pax may have 0.05 (5%) more shields than the D'deridex, but the D'deridex has 550 more base hull than the Ha'pax. The difference will be marginal.
good rhetoric, bad example.
my example, one of my alts flying in a blockade runner got:
about 46k hull and constant resists around 60% for kinetic and 50% on all energy. and i don't even have fleet resists in there because its only a farm alt.
i do survive quite good invisible torps on gates and crystaline fragments on CCE.
do you survive them with your "illogical waste"? allow me to doubt it.
There is nothing forcing you to take the two piece set on the D'deridex, you could always use RCS Accelerators to improve turn rate.
allow me to recall one of the rules, rcs work from base turn only and gives very small benefits if the base turn rate is one of the lowest in game.
numbers from live server, t5 refit d'd, alt with helmsman trait, borg engine xii:
no consoles 9.3 turn, 22.03 speed, 70% speed tank.
1 rcs 10.9, 2 rcs 12.6.
2-set with no rcs 11.5 turn, 24.01 speed 75% speed tank.
i don't know how you see this, but benefits of 2-set isn't something to sneeze at.
You are also neglecting to mention that by using Dual Vector separation, the ship is sacrificing it's hull, shields, and subsystem power to obtain bonuses in other areas. The ship also doesn't increase the base turn rate, it simply adds a flat rate bonus.
well, ship is actually gaining additional +5 power overall, but as even you would care bout exact reading of the specification.
base turn 9.4, vector mode turn 21.4. simply equivalent of 7.5 rcs consoles....
but that is not even the point.
the point is dhc setup is pointless on d'd but works quite good on assault vector mode, which allow to fulfill damage dealer role.
every role can be fulfilled by ha'apax better then by d'd. because of vector and lt.com universal.
Even with Dual Vector active, the ship will never turn like a Ha'feh Assault Warbird. If the player attempts to go with a Science setup, they will fail miserably due to a lack of Science console slots.
d'd will fail on the same scheme even more miserable. d'd wont turn even like assault vector.
science console isn't giving 30%, but 30 points on skill, which has even more diminishing return after rank 6. so gw will be much weaker because of lacking aux power. 1 point power is 2% more on ability, remember?
Third, if you knew anything about Science Vessels, you would know that weapon slots and Tactical consoles are not a highly important part of flying a successful Science Vessel.
sure. ever seen energy draining torp boat made on intrepid?
or you fail to calculate what difference will it make having 8 torps instead of 6, 3 tac consoles instead of 2 and 3 tac abilities instead of 2?
However, the console doesn't provide that extra impulse modifier or defense bonus that all escorts enjoy.
not providing extra impulse modifier? how about 15% impulse speed?
are there many escorts with 4 or even 5 resists? or with dem3 and ep2weap3?
btw. i can live with "only" 75% maximal defense.
Again, you've never PvPed before, have you? Those Dual Vectors also have a much higher threat generator than Yellowstones. If they aren't destroyed by borg in three shots, they will be destroyed by a single warp core breach.
mine survived quite good, unless it tried to solo a gate or a cube. stupid ai, i know...
btw. 34k hull for guardian and 25k for assault pet is a "bit" more then yellowstone i think.
In the process, the Ha'apax loses the ability to slot Attack Pattern Delta II, Omega I, or a level 3 weapon ability. What does it lose in exchange for that extra +15 Auxiliary? Oh right, 9.1% hull, -5 Engine Power, -10 Weapon Power, and -500 Crew. It also still lacks one Science console slot compared to the D'Deridex.
in the process the ha'apax gain the benefits needed to fulfill the role up to the level of role-specified ship and according base statistics known to the classes.
none of the science ships can have omega, except vesta.
none of the science ships gain additional +5 on shield power on top of the +15 aux as guardian mode ha'apax. that's cruiser level bonus power gain, 20 points total.
i think only tactical vesta has 3 tac consoles, but not sure.
none of science ships got 8 weapons.
so actually guardian while being science like vessel has more firepower then usual science ship and a very strong pet with fire support. overall i gain more then i loose. no pain, no gain, you know?
Let me just add that I have some experience flying torp boats so I tried a variety of torp builds. I did a mixed 6 single beam/1 fore and aft plasma torp build. Conclusion: stunk because I couldn't get enough dps out of the beams as well as turn quickly enough to bring enemies into my fore and aft torp arcs. Secondly, I tried the 7 single beams and 1 fore torp build. Conclusion: marginal improvement but still stunk because I couldn't get enough dps out of my beams. Thirdly, I tried some 6/7 single beams with tractor beam mines and/ or quantum mines builds. Conclusion: decent damage over time, lousy dps because I couldn't effectively coordinate my GW's with my mines because by the time my mines would give chase and/or activate tractor beams, the GW's are nearly gone.
the best results i've got from d'd was this:
1 omega torp, 1 dhc, 1 single cannon, 1 dbb fore; 1 beam, 2 turrets, cutting beam aft.
gw+scatter+faw+ts3
so i don't have weak angles, got something for long range damage and still doing quite good uncloaking alpha frontal strike.
i theory it might work well to make aux2bat kinda build with single com.engi boff, but i got tired of d'd and technician doff were to costly for just "trying it out".
I mainly solo PVE. So my view is from that. I run a Romulan Tac Officer in a D'Deridex. She been in that ship since October. I have yet to blow up from any ship. This is doing the rest of the Dominion/Cardassian story, Breen story, Borg story, and Undine story. I'm currently farming the Deferi Sector dailies to get my consuls from the Dil store.
I use the Singularity powers to help me out. Due to my lack of shields being a Tac. Also using battle cloak does help to get me to spin around. Or to sit back and heal up some ready for another attack run. So turning rate has yet to be a problem for me.
Where I need to improve is my weapon layout. I have DHCs mounted, and I found out that is not good for this ship. So that will be replaced with another array. So soon as I get into the Romulan Rep. I plan on equipping it with those weapons. So my layout will fit the ship better.
Even the Galaxy R most hate the ship. Due to turn rating or lack of offense. These ships is not for everyone. I like my D'Deridex the way it is. It takes a beating and dishes it out as well.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
and which role in team require weak gw, nearly useless warp plasma and a torp spred at same time? a side from the argument "look, i have them!!!" "high end science" is gw3.
Try stacking Particle Generators in those console and drop a Gravimetric Torpedo Spread III. You will see exactly what I am talking about.
where did i said about ignoring shields? do you like yourself speaking that much that you ignore what other people say or don't say? you know, ignorance isn't a bless.
You attempted to deflect my shield tanking argument by mentioning that the Ha'apax has a slightly higher shield mod than the D'deridex (which has a slightly higher hull mod). I was demonstrating that all the resists in the world won't help if you don't have a solid shield healing base.
there are situations where 5% additional resists, even with diminishing return, means the difference between survive and explosion.
good rhetoric, bad example.
my example, one of my alts flying in a blockade runner got:
about 46k hull and constant resists around 60% for kinetic and 50% on all energy. and i don't even have fleet resists in there because its only a farm alt.
You aren't getting those resistance percentages through simple console stacking, I can tell you that right now. That would be 110 All Energy Damage Resistance Rating and 180 Kinetic Damage Resistance Rating. With 9 points in Starship Hull Plating and Armor Reinforcements, that will bring your resistance rating to 14.5. Stacking 4 Very Rare Mk XII Neutroniums would bring you up to 94.4. I'll assume you have the Tier IV Defensive Nukara passive, bringing you up to 48% All Energy Damage Resistance and 46.7% All Kinetic Damage Resistance. The 48% All Energy Damage Resistance effectively means it would take 68,080 energy damage or 67,482 kinetic damage to destroy the ship outright, assuming your 46,000 hull.
Compare that to a player using just two Fleet Neutronium consoles and 3 points in Starship Hull Plating and Armor Reinforcements. Toss on the Nukara passive as well. This will give the player about 36.7% Kinetic Damage Resistance and 38% All Energy Damage Resistance. It would take 63,480 energy damage or 62,882 kinetic damage to destroy the ship outright, assuming your 46,000 hull.
Interesting, +2 more All damage resistance is only increasing the amount of kinetic or energy damage the ship may take by +4,600. Now, let's throw in resistance buffs to see what happens. Auxiliary to Structural Integrity Field I will grant about +25 All Damage Resistance Rating. That will bring the 4 resistance console ship up to 52.3% All Energy Damage Resistance and 51.8% Kinetic Damage Resistance. The 2 resistance console ship will be brought up to about 44.5% All Energy Damage Resistance and the Kinetic Damage Resistance will be brought up to about 44.4% Kinetic Damage Resistance.
This means it will take 70,058 energy damage or 69,828 kinetic damage to destroy the 4 resistance console ship outright. Compare that to the 2 resistance console ship. It would take 66,470 energy damage or 66,424 kinetic damage to destroy the ship outright. A single resistance buff cuts the energy gap from +4,600 to +3,588 energy and +3,358 kinetic difference. Throw in the Tier IV Dyson Resistance passive and the difference between the 4 console resistance ship and the 2 console resistance ship drops into the hundreds. Which means +2 resistance consoles are essentially allowing your ship to take an extra hit...or two. If the player is using a large number of damage resistance buffs, that number goes into the double digits, which means it's less than half of a hit.
i do survive quite good invisible torps on gates and crystaline fragments on CCE.
do you survive them with your "illogical waste"? allow me to doubt it.
I point blank the Crystaline Entity on Elite with a Science Vesta all the time. Even on the Vesta with it's low hull, shards aren't a problem.
allow me to recall one of the rules, rcs work from base turn only and gives very small benefits if the base turn rate is one of the lowest in game.
numbers from live server, t5 refit d'd, alt with helmsman trait, borg engine xii:
no consoles 9.3 turn, 22.03 speed, 70% speed tank.
1 rcs 10.9, 2 rcs 12.6.
2-set with no rcs 11.5 turn, 24.01 speed 75% speed tank.
i don't know how you see this, but benefits of 2-set isn't something to sneeze at.
Wait, weren't you just condemning this set as terrible a minute ago? RCS work on the formula of (Base Turn * RCS Percentage) = Bonus Turn. Each RCS Accelerator will give the D'deridex about +2.4 tun per console. Not great, but the bonus isn't terrible either.
well, ship is actually gaining additional +5 power overall, but as even you would care bout exact reading of the specification.
base turn 9.4, vector mode turn 21.4. simply equivalent of 7.5 rcs consoles....
but that is not even the point.
the point is dhc setup is pointless on d'd but works quite good on assault vector mode, which allow to fulfill damage dealer role.
If you are trying to fulfill a damage dealer role, you should switch to the Ha'feh. The Ha'anom is a warbird cruiser, not a tactical warbird.
every role can be fulfilled by ha'apax better then by d'd. because of vector and lt.com universal. d'd will fail on the same scheme even more miserable. d'd wont turn even like assault vector.
The D'deridex doesn't need to choose between universals because it already has two Lt. Commander slots. As I have explained several posts before, achieving workable turn rate on the D'deridex is not difficult.
science console isn't giving 30%, but 30 points on skill, which has even more diminishing return after rank 6. so gw will be much weaker because of lacking aux power. 1 point power is 2% more on ability, remember?
Science abilities do not suffer from diminishing returns, they are a vertical increase scaling on the number of skill points in a given skill. The only thing in the entire game subject to diminishing returns is damage resistance.
+15 power weight much more then a single science console. that is what you neglect for your convenience.
Considering it's already possible to achieve 125 Auxiliary power on the D'deridex without the use of a console, I don't see how this is significant in any way shape or form. Auxiliary is capped at 125, there is no bonus for overcapping Auxiliary.
sure. ever seen energy draining torp boat made on intrepid?
or you fail to calculate what difference will it make having 8 torps instead of 6, 3 tac consoles instead of 2 and 3 tac abilities instead of 2?
Torpedoes have a 1 second shared cooldown. With the proper layout, they won't be using more than three of those torpedoes at any given time. Science Vessels focus on frontal weapon damage, which means it has more than enough slots to accommodate it's forward weapon arsenal. Science Vessel Torpedo boats don't even need Tactical consoles to be effective. Most use the tactical station for Science based universals.
not providing extra impulse modifier? how about 15% impulse speed?
are there many escorts with 4 or even 5 resists? or with dem3 and ep2weap3?
Now you are comparing the Ha'apax to escorts? The Heavy Escort Carrier, Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, Fleet Patrol Escort, and Fleet Mogai are all a few examples that may reach nearly the same amounts of survivability as the Ha'apax. All of which exceed the Ha'apax in their ability to turn and deal damage.
in the process the ha'apax gain the benefits needed to fulfill the role up to the level of role-specified ship and according base statistics known to the classes.
none of the science ships can have omega, except vesta.
You are forgetting about the Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit, Wells Temporal Science Vessel, and the Voth Palisade Science Vessel,
none of the science ships gain additional +5 on shield power on top of the +15 aux as guardian mode ha'apax. that's cruiser level bonus power gain, 20 points total.
That is because the Ha'apax is a cruiser, not a Science Vessel.
i think only tactical vesta has 3 tac consoles, but not sure.
The Tactical Vesta has four tactical console slots, same with the Fleet Reconnaissance Science Vessel. Only the Fleet Olympus, Fleet Nebula, and Voth Palisade Science Vessel have less than 3 Tactical console slots.
none of science ships got 8 weapons.
so actually guardian while being science like vessel has more firepower then usual science ship and a very strong pet with fire support. overall i gain more then i loose. no pain, no gain, you know?
The Ha'apax doesn't have Sensor Analysis or Subsystem Targeting. Without those abilities, the Ha'apax is missing two key defining Science Vessel features.
Console sets are optional gimmick add-ons, they aren't vital.
you was taking about rcs, wasn't you?
in one sentence you want use turn improving stuff, in another you call it gimmick.
its looks kinda you don't know what to answer. pure polemic without a sense.
I point blank the Crystaline Entity on Elite with a Science Vesta all the time. Even on the Vesta with it's low hull, shards aren't a problem.
of course, having science ship with a lot of crowd control abilities will save your butt.
but we aren't talking about crowd controls, we talking about tanking.
Wait, weren't you just condemning this set as terrible a minute ago? RCS work on the formula of (Base Turn * RCS Percentage) = Bonus Turn. Each RCS Accelerator will give the D'deridex about +2.4 tun per console. Not great, but the bonus isn't terrible either.
again, you like yourself speaking.
those numbers are from live server. 1 rcs is around 1.5-1.6.
If you are trying to fulfill a damage dealer role, you should switch to the Ha'feh. The Ha'anom is a warbird cruiser, not a tactical warbird.
well, for starting with the fact that ha'nom is a science ship.
then your argument was about the (not existing) versatility of d'd.
which were replayed by me with the argument that in therms of versatility haakona/ha'apax outperform the d'd.
Science abilities do not suffer from diminishing returns, they are a vertical increase scaling on the number of skill points in a given skill. The only thing in the entire game subject to diminishing returns is damage resistance.
open up the skill window of a character and notice carefully green, yellow and red bars below every skill as well as numbers noticed there. then think about it 5 minutes before replay.
Considering it's already possible to achieve 125 Auxiliary power on the D'deridex without the use of a console, I don't see how this is significant in any way shape or form. Auxiliary is capped at 125, there is no bonus for overcapping Auxiliary.
it has the same significance as appropriate bonus levels tied to every ship in game to profile it to specific role. everyone can eat a battery, that isn't an argument.
argument was the versatility, where haakona/ha'apax outperforms d'd in every possible way.
i don't. i just pointed out that you can't properly read the documentation.
assault mode indeed DOES receive impulse speed bonus where you stated it doesn't.
You are forgetting about the Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit, Wells Temporal Science Vessel, and the Voth Palisade Science Vessel,
wells and palisade both are lockboxes. with same argument you can say "federation got battlecloak" just because you can get the bulwark with 3-set.
and for one nova i see 100 vesta flying around.
That is because the Ha'apax is a cruiser, not a Science Vessel.
or yes, it is. guardian vector mode gets all usual science related perks like shield stats and +15 aux. on top of that it also gain +5 on shield and a strong pet.
The Ha'apax doesn't have Sensor Analysis or Subsystem Targeting. Without those abilities, the Ha'apax is missing two key defining Science Vessel features.
subsystem? seriously? who the hell would use it and cutting the dps by TRIBBLE FAW cooldown?
sensor analysis isn't that game breaking feature as it would some people like.
guardian got 8 weapons, which means 33% more firepower from the first sec.
analysis need whole minute to get 33% bonus.
most important is the fact that haakona/ha'apax indeed does has the versatility to mimic every play style.
it never be "as like" as role specific ship, but it will be indeed pretty much "near as like".
d'd is by no way as versatile as ha'apax can be.
which leads us to the topic - what good d'd is for?
damage? its kinda bottom line on damage.
tanking? there are better tanker out there.
cc havoc? a single weak gw can barely change the tide on d'd. in difference the prometheus with gw isn't same as d'd with gw.
then you came with versatility. but even in that category there are ships, which more versatile then d'd.
so what d'd is good for? except for looking good and stuffing the place on warp map.
most important is the fact that haakona/ha'apax indeed does has the versatility to mimic every play style.
it never be "as like" as role specific ship, but it will be indeed pretty much "near as like".
d'd is by no way as versatile as ha'apax can be.
which leads us to the topic - what good d'd is for?
damage? its kinda bottom line on damage.
tanking? there are better tanker out there.
cc havoc? a single weak gw can barely change the tide on d'd. in difference the prometheus with gw isn't same as d'd with gw.
then you came with versatility. but even in that category there are ships, which more versatile then d'd.
so what d'd is good for? except for looking good and stuffing the place on warp map.
I'm going to ignore the rest of your post since it's just pointless and rather immature argumenation and just comment on this part.
You are correct, the Haakona can mimic almost every play style. BUT can it do it simultaneously? That was your main comment that it can do everything the D'deridex can. But it can't. Why? Because while it can do everything the double D can, it can't do them at the same time.
And you're wrong btw. It's damage output is equal to most fed and KDF battlecruisers. Which btw, that's what the double D is. A battlecruiser class warbird. As tanking goes? One Cmdr Engi is all you'd ever need. Period. Having more Eng is just a waste of BOff space. And you're comment about the CC? There are more things to life than gravity well. And it should be noted that after the GW patch, a GW1 is still incredibly powerful, even if all you have is 3 points in particle gens and graviton gens. But what you're missing out is that you can also have something else there, like an Energy Siphon, a Tykens Rift, a much stronger heal (IE TSS3 or HE3).
And tbh, there aren't that many ships that are equal to the double D in versatility. Those other ships might be versatile, but they have weak versatility whereas the double D has STRONG versatility. I find it somewhat amusing that you keep on discounting the fact that this ship has a double LtCmdr slot, something that I think there are maybe two other ships that have. So I am sorry to say, on that point you're dead wrong. The other ones, somewhat close minded and maybe a tad misinformed, but on that last one, dead wrong.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
any warbird is going to end up doing more damage then other ships anyway. just being a romulan character with all superior boffs will let you cloak every 12 seconds and have an ambush damage buff 15 seconds long at least. not to mention the sky high crit
the d'deridex will always be beter then the hapax, because it can leverage LTC tac and LTC sci abilities at the same time. meaning the ship can use every single station power in the game, in any combination. the hapax can only go overboard on tac or overboard on sci, and with the ENS tac set in stone, have pretty gutted customization compared to the other flagship cruisers.
I've run the feet D'deridex as my main ship on my main toon since legacy of Romulus came out and I don't get the dislike for it from the playerbase at all.
It's by far my favorite ship and the only conclusion I can draw is that most of the complaints about turn rate especially come from people trying to use cannons on it, or people that cloak once at the beginning of the game then never cloak again.
DO NOT USE CANNONS ON IT.
Not only do you not have the turn rate to support cannons you also don't have the boff seating to get access to the high tier tac abilities that will make cannons work properly.
The D'Deridex is best used as a pure beam boat. You can get FAW2 and ATB2 or ATO1 and those are all you really need in terms of tactical abilities. The other two slots are either tac team x2 or tac team plus whatever you want to run for giggles if you're using aux to battery.
YOU WANT TO BE USING AUX TO BATTERY
Aux to battery is what lets the triple ltcm/commander layout shine. Now instead of having 3 mid/high level abilities on full cooldowns you've got 3 mid/high level abilities on short cooldowns or with constant uptime.
I like to run TSS3 and EptS3 constantly. Combined with an elite fleet adaptive shield the amount of damage reduction on your shields gets ridiculous.
Add in a valdore console and adequate points in shield emitters and flow caps and your shields aren't going to drop to anything other than some kind of weird lagspike insta kill or massive crit.
If you do start getting slowly worn down you've got the singularity shield power to hide behind while you leech/heal more shield back, and if even that doesn't work you've still got RsP3 waiting in the wings and the battle cloaking device as an absolute last ditch. That said though you should be cloaking every time there's nothing in weapons range, to reposition and for the damage buff. So many Romulan players I see in game will cloak once at the beginning of the game then never cloak again, basically wasting one of the biggest assets every Romulan ship has.
My overall impression from playing it as long as I have is that the D'Deridex is a ship about tanking massive amounts of damage while dealing out moderate to high constant damage itself. It's more of an offensive tank with some nasty teeth than a heal/support type tanking cruiser, or a more offense oriented but fragile ship like the Scimitar or Dominion dread.
It can both give a nasty punch AND take one, and that's probably why I like it so much.
Avoid the flashy science powers and just concentrate on bolstering either survivability or damage and you'll be better off. It's a ship that does seem easy to get distracted in just because they give you so many options. Just because you have them though doesn't mean you want or need them.
So we're left with a jack of all trades warbird cruiser...
Granted, it could be a decent heal boat but not much more than that. So there you have it. The most iconic Romulan ship of all time has been reduced to a heal boat and a so so beam boat. Awesome...
What's wrong with heal boats? Healers are essential in teamed PvP.
Just last week, I kept our outmatched (4v5) team alive for 10 minutes longer than they should have been alive, simply because of the Fleet D'Deridex. Total healing score 3+ million (other team's healer was around 2 million). I'd say that's pretty crucial to a match.
Don't count out the heal boats, they keep your glass cannons runnin'.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I like the Projected Singularity it comes with, its a fun consul. I love firing it on ships that is next to each other. Let it pull them in, and fire weapons like crazy. The plasma torpedo spread also does good damage. Larger ships it works ok, but for groups its worth it.
Some might not like the ship, but to me I love it.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
What's wrong with heal boats? Healers are essential in teamed PvP.
Just last week, I kept our outmatched (4v5) team alive for 10 minutes longer than they should have been alive, simply because of the Fleet D'Deridex. Total healing score 3+ million (other team's healer was around 2 million). I'd say that's pretty crucial to a match.
Don't count out the heal boats, they keep your glass cannons runnin'.
Yes, but most players tend to focus on efficacy in PVE, where healboats and pure tanks are for the most part a waste of a team slot, because the content is easy and the AI sucks. All you really need to keep an engi/tac cruiser with a halfway competent captain self-healed in PVE is EPTS1 and Hazard Emitters (preferably HE2). Escorts are trickier but not by much.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I have a really hard time coming to terms with some of Cryptic's decisions regarding the D'deridex, and it's placement as a slow cruiser in the game. If you could please try to answer these as best as you can, I would appreciate it.
First of all, why was the D'deridex given a few extra thousand hull in exchange for losing turnate? Wouldn't it have been better for the c-store version to have 6 turn with around 41,000 hull and the fleet version's been around 6.5, with 43, 000 hull?
Second of all, the D'deridex was a former flagship while the scimitar was an outlier (reman and not Romulan, and by all accounts, the ship was never mass produced). Therefore, shouldn't the D'deridex have been released as a three pack and the scimitar as a lobi ship?
Third of all, where was the logic in deciding that I should only get +2 Turn Rate, +10 engine from the D'deridex console set when I'm giving up two console slots for a so so singularity launcher and a great defensive field, both with 3 minute long cooldowns? I could easily swap out the D'deridex console set for a much better a turn rate and hull armor console without giving up so much which makes me think that this set is gimmicky and not very useful. The singularity launcher and inverter are also very situational since I can only use them once every 3 min.
Fourth of all, the d'deridex was the mainstay of the RSE's fleets. By 2409, the Romulans would have made enough improvements to it to make it a worthy match for the dominion battleships. It's shielding would have been improved, potentially incorporating some of the Reman advancements in shielding we saw with the scimitar in Nemesis. It certainly would have more powerful armaments, and the Romulans may have even added more weapons to it which begs the question: so why where these perfectly plausible advancements not incorporated into the tier 5 d'deridex? Maybe the D'deridex should have been given 5 rear weapon slots and 4 forward ones. Maybe a D'deridex 3 pack could have given us an experimental Reman-Romulan shield.
Overall, I'm left with a sour taste in my mouth after playing the d'deridex. It's slow turning, it's consoles are unremarkable and gimmicky, and both the scimitar and the mogai outmatch it in terms of raw firepower. It's extremely frustrating to me because I've been waiting for the release of the Romulans and for a chance to fly the iconic D'deridex since STO was released. Such a sad fate for such an iconic ship is all I can say.
Yesterday I did a run through of Hive Space Elite with 3 D'D and a couple of escorts, all the D'D survived the run and we got every optional. Elite tac cubes were np. We manuevered to avoid the lance easily enough, and tanked their plasma torp spreads. And the queen went down very fast when she was not able to instapop us. Great ship.
I like the Projected Singularity it comes with, its a fun consul. I love firing it on ships that is next to each other. Let it pull them in, and fire weapons like crazy. The plasma torpedo spread also does good damage. Larger ships it works ok, but for groups its worth it.
Some might not like the ship, but to me I love it.
For extra fun.... hit the CE with it. If you are at approximately 8 km distance from the CE, firing it will drag the shards back to the CE, then damage them. It takes a bit of work to setup though, you need to both be facing the CE, and not about to eat shards...
and how that should be an argument for useability of warp plasma? or the sci console which give you a "wooping" 3-4% of additional exotic damage?
open up the skill window of a character and notice carefully green, yellow and red bars below every skill as well as numbers noticed there. then think about it 5 minutes before replay.
You need to go back and take a second look at how skill points work. The skill tree's point investment increases price the farther the player travels up the skill point tree. The skill bonuses themselves don't have diminishing returns. However, slotting a +Particle Generator console will give a flat increase to the skill without diminishing returns.
again, you like yourself speaking.
those numbers are from live server. 1 rcs is around 1.5-1.6.
12/1.6=7.5. you ha bad notes in math during school time? my condolences.
The D'deridex has 5.5 turn rate. Each extra RCS Accelerator provides a 42.5% turn rate boost via the ship's base turn rate (Fleet Ultra Rare Mk XII). This means 5.5 * 0.425 = 2.3375. 12/2.4 = 5.
it has the same significance as appropriate bonus levels tied to every ship in game to profile it to specific role. everyone can eat a battery, that isn't an argument.
argument was the versatility, where haakona/ha'apax outperforms d'd in every possible way.
I've already proven this statement false in my previous posts.
or yes, it is. guardian vector mode gets all usual science related perks like shield stats and +15 aux. on top of that it also gain +5 on shield and a strong pet.
At the price of -5 Engine Power and -10 Weapon power.
sensor analysis isn't that game breaking feature as it would some people like.
guardian got 8 weapons, which means 33% more firepower from the first sec.
analysis need whole minute to get 33% bonus.
most important is the fact that haakona/ha'apax indeed does has the versatility to mimic every play style.
it never be "as like" as role specific ship, but it will be indeed pretty much "near as like".
d'd is by no way as versatile as ha'apax can be.
which leads us to the topic - what good d'd is for?
damage? its kinda bottom line on damage.
tanking? there are better tanker out there.
cc havoc? a single weak gw can barely change the tide on d'd. in difference the prometheus with gw isn't same as d'd with gw.
then you came with versatility. but even in that category there are ships, which more versatile then d'd.
so what d'd is good for? except for looking good and stuffing the place on warp map.
I give up, hereticknight was correct, you are close minded and beyond hope.
Seems like every ship people love from TNG is terrible:(
As far as for pvp I think it's not very good but for pve it can have some really good use. It's one of a few cruisers that can have both torp spread 3 and gw 1 which makes it really awesome for NWS.
Weeelll... Besides the Vor'Cha. That one apparently got spared. I guess we have some Klingon fans among the Devs after all.
For extra fun.... hit the CE with it. If you are at approximately 8 km distance from the CE, firing it will drag the shards back to the CE, then damage them. It takes a bit of work to setup though, you need to both be facing the CE, and not about to eat shards...
Thanks, I will try that next time I log on.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Yes, but most players tend to focus on efficacy in PVE
My bad, I thought the poster was describing PvP. Yeah, in PvE, the D'Deridex has a tougher time keeping up with other warbirds, simply due to console layout.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
My two cents....love this ship on my rom engie....I fly dhcs and a torp. My only concession to turn rate is the two piece dd console set, one dil mine armor with partial turn, attack patern omega and a tractor. Other then that, use your cloaking turn bonus and fly smart in pve...no problems
Tougher than my scimi and hits very hard. Love it.
Just might not fit the playstyle of others...especially growing up on all those manuverable warbirds.
Just remember...cut full impulse and throw in reverse well before you get to the target so you rest close to but not past it...takes a little practice.
Park, reverse and pivot while killing enemies.
If you are not cloaking at every practical opportunity...you should not fly warbirds...especially this one.
Singularity projectile works well to group enemies for the kill
My bad, I thought the poster was describing PvP. Yeah, in PvE, the D'Deridex has a tougher time keeping up with other warbirds, simply due to console layout.
Eh, I made an educated guess. First post doesn't actually say either way.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Comments
I totally agree. The D'D should've been the C-store 3 pack and the Scimi a Lobi store ship. The reason Cryptic didn't do this is beyond me. I think it comes down to what Captain Geko likes personally and what he thinks is cool. And he thought the Scimi is cooler than the D'D. This is the only thing I can think of.
Cryptic has made bad decisions regarding the iconic Trek Ships in the game and these bad decisions are seen in every faction not just here with the Romulans. Galaxy, B-rel, D'Deridex. It's a shame really because to me it's the iconic Trek ships that would bring in the most money.
And Drunk's recommended layout here is spot on:
COM tac
LTC sci
LTC eng
LT eng
3/3/4 consoles
8 turn rate
37k hull
1.1 shield mod
I'm guessing that last bit is a spelling error... because you do have a battle cloak and singularity powers as well
Anyhow, I think people are missing the point to this threads origin - the Double D, whilst an ok Ship, just falls flat compared to the other Romulan ships of its level out there.
Yes, it can tank, yes it can do dps - but it's nothing special for such an iconic ship (which is why the poor thing gets so much flak!)
It's very rare I ever see one in PvP and if they do appear, they're promptly vapourised! And they're the ones sporting over 65k HPs..
Honestly, even my Scimmy does better than the Double D at tanking.. and as for the DPS.. well.. (Scimmy bashing is for another post
The consoles that come with the C-Store ship as well.. very "meh", but then personally, I have a habit of dropping those in any case and fitting things more useful. Most consoles from these packs are "Gimmicky" at best.
If I, personally had the choice, I'd change it's layout slighty for the Retro fit & Fleet:
Boff seating:
With that Boff layout, you're free to choose whether you want it tact, eng or even sci.
Bump its turn rate up to 7
Leave its console slots as is.
That would make this ship a winner in my eyes and probably OP in others with some yelling rubbish! :P
Still, would be nice to bring them out again instead of sat, collecting dust in the shipyard.. :cool:
Oh, and the standard Double D Boff layout would require a slight tweak as well if they went ahead and changes the other two :cool:
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I said the D'deridex was "one of the most versatile cruisers in the game", that is an accurate statement. All Federation Cruisers are tied somewhere between Tactical Extreme (Assault Cruiser), Tanking Purity (Exploration Cruiser), and Science Extreme (Support Cruiser). They are tied to two of the three areas of expertise. The same is true for Klingon Battle Cruisers, they excel at two areas, but not all three. The D'Deridex is designed to do all three well without going over the top. The ship's console and bridge officer layout reflects this fact. The player behind the ship could use the ship to do all cruiser styled tasks, or they could hyper-focus the build in order to focus on one specific area.
Ah, you are one of those people. Some people call flying a Miranda in an Elite STF a challenge, others call that leeching. The ship only has three weapon slots and three ensign bridge officer abilities. It can't tank, it can't deal damage, and it can't crowd control.
Which of the two ships can use Gravity Well I, Eject Warp Plasma III, and Torpedo Spread III on the same ship at the same time? Oh, right, the D'deridex. There are numerous layouts the D'deridex may perform where the Ha'apax cannot.
Trading in a high end Science damage dealing ability for a Lt. level Tactical weapon attack is quite a significant tradeoff. Also, in order to engage that "heavy destroyer assault mode", you need the console, which drops your ship to 9 console slots.
You need to go back and re-familiarize yourself with the damage resistance rating diminishing returns formula URL="http://sto.gamepedia.com/Damage_resistance"]Link[/URL. You are wasting valuable console slots if you are using 5 Fleet Neutronium consoles, you want 2 Neutronium consoles, 3 at the very most. Anything tanking will be carrying multiple healing abilities with damage resistance buffs. The tank will also have the Tier IV Dyson +0-75 all damage resistance rating passive. The diminishing returns stack up to the point where using more than 2-3 Neutroniums becomes illogical.
You have never PvPed, have you? Hull tanking without Shield tanking will result in a dead tank. This is what happens when you attempt to hull tank while ignoring shields. A torpedo high yield III Critical hit for 100,000 is still going to be 50,000 damage to bare hull with 50% damage resistance. A Beam Overload III 80,000 Critical hit is still 40,000 to bare hull with 50% damage resistance. No shields = death, plain and simple. The Fleet Ha'pax may have 0.05 (5%) more shields than the D'deridex, but the D'deridex has 550 more base hull than the Ha'pax. The difference will be marginal.
There is nothing forcing you to take the two piece set on the D'deridex, you could always use RCS Accelerators to improve turn rate. You are also neglecting to mention that by using Dual Vector separation, the ship is sacrificing it's hull, shields, and subsystem power to obtain bonuses in other areas. The ship also doesn't increase the base turn rate, it simply adds a flat rate bonus.
Even with Dual Vector active, the ship will never turn like a Ha'feh Assault Warbird. If the player attempts to go with a Science setup, they will fail miserably due to a lack of Science console slots.
You neglect to mention the fact that you lose 5 Engine Power and 10 Weapon Power in the process, how convenient :rolleyes:. Secondly, two console slots is going to severely hamper the ability to use Science abilities effectively. Third, if you knew anything about Science Vessels, you would know that weapon slots and Tactical consoles are not a highly important part of flying a successful Science Vessel.
URL="http://sto.gamepedia.com/Console_-_Universal_-_Dual_Vector_Separation"]Link[/URL That would be a yes, it sacrifices hull/shield strength and power levels for bonus power, turn rate, and impulse speed. Anything using the console isn't going to tank as well as a normal cruiser in PvP, the console essentially drops the hull (and shield for escort mode) to escort levels. However, the console doesn't provide that extra impulse modifier or defense bonus that all escorts enjoy.
Again, you've never PvPed before, have you? Those Dual Vectors also have a much higher threat generator than Yellowstones. If they aren't destroyed by borg in three shots, they will be destroyed by a single warp core breach.
In the process, the Ha'apax loses the ability to slot Attack Pattern Delta II, Omega I, or a level 3 weapon ability. What does it lose in exchange for that extra +15 Auxiliary? Oh right, 9.1% hull, -5 Engine Power, -10 Weapon Power, and -500 Crew. It also still lacks one Science console slot compared to the D'Deridex.
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Two things.
1) OP was talking about PvE, not PvP.
2) You need to stop arguing with alfamega. He's a close minded person who refuses to see the Double D as anything but TRIBBLE, which is why I left my main post, a few follow-ups, and then more or less ignored his "counters" which are really just nit-picky commentary.
It comes down to this:
The D'deridex is actually a great ship. It can be used extremely effectively, and cover multiple roles, ALL WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE A SINGLE BOff. Anyone who says it's TRIBBLE really should go back and try again, only do it intelligently. She can be made to work incredibly well. And if you fail at her, it's ok. But don't insult her by calling her TRIBBLE when there are hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of players who have gotten their double D to work great magic.
3 Fleet Plasma Consoles, 3 Fleet Emitter Arrays with +Pla, and the Zero Point Energy Conduit for the two piece bonus. That pseudo five tactical console slot D'deridex that will leave the Ha'apax in the dust, both for crowd control and damage.
Fair enough, I was attempting to help him see the error of his ways, but you may be right. It is possible he is too close minded to take in outside opinions.
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I greatly appreciate the suggestions all of you posted in this thread. I am definitely convinced that one can make a decent build with the d'deridex for pve but that's about it. One thing that bothers me in some of the comparisons is that you keep saying that X boff ability would make the d'deridex great if you had Y doff. Well, my response is that a ship should be able to stand on it's own without needing special doffs. Vanilla fleet dderidex is still sorely lacking in pvp when compared to the scimitar and mogai. Your only choice is to turn it into a EPB spamfest beam boat which has 0 appeal for me and could be more effectively done anyways by a fed/kling cruiser with higher power levels, stronger shields, and cruiser commands.
So we're left with a jack of all trades warbird cruiser (an oxymoron I might add) that can do average in Sci and tac because it has two Lt. Commanders. This translates to so so pve viability and close to 0 pvp viability as a dps tank boat. Granted, it could be a decent heal boat but not much more than that. So there you have it. The most iconic Romulan ship of all time has been reduced to a heal boat and a so so beam boat. Awesome...
Let me just add that I have some experience flying torp boats so I tried a variety of torp builds. I did a mixed 6 single beam/1 fore and aft plasma torp build. Conclusion: stunk because I couldn't get enough dps out of the beams as well as turn quickly enough to bring enemies into my fore and aft torp arcs. Secondly, I tried the 7 single beams and 1 fore torp build. Conclusion: marginal improvement but still stunk because I couldn't get enough dps out of my beams. Thirdly, I tried some 6/7 single beams with tractor beam mines and/ or quantum mines builds. Conclusion: decent damage over time, lousy dps because I couldn't effectively coordinate my GW's with my mines because by the time my mines would give chase and/or activate tractor beams, the GW's are nearly gone.
The best canon PVE fleet deridex build I came up with was 3 fore disruptor DHC's, 1 fore plasma torp with 3 aft disruptor turrets and 1 aft plasma torp. That being said, I was forced to go with CSV 1 and 2 to get enough dps to able to blow up the Borg bops/raptors caught in my GW's. However, this proved problematic because once I removed APO 1, I was forced to use polarize hull with my ensign univ. Boff or the same with my Lt. Commander Sci boff. Consequently and since GW1 occupied my Lt commander Sci boff's slot, that meant that I had no choice but to put Sci team and hazard emit in my remaining Sci slots because they're indispensable for clearing Borg plasma burn and voth subnukes, respectively. Consequently, I'm pigeon holed into at least one aux to struct integ./eng team on the commander engineer and EPS. Meaning, now I have only two engie abilities left with few choices left. Yes, I could do EP engines 1 or 2 but then I have to have Aux to struct integ 2 or 3. To sum up, it's been super tricky to trick this D'D out. The necessary heals will leave no room for combining essentials like EPW/energy siphon with FAW/CSV/CRF. That's what's most frustrating about the D'D for STF's.
I still have to do some testing with the subspace bop jump console because that and the singularity jump are probably your best bet for lining up your targets with your arcs, besides the battle cloak. I also need to get the projectile doffs to see how well those play out with a cannon/torp hybrid build. I'll let you know how it goes.
There are very few ships in game that can "stand on it's own without needing special doffs". All of your top dog fed cruisers are reliant on either Damage Control Engineers or Technicians (depending on if they're running an EPtX build or an Aux2bat build). Most escorts are reliant on Energy Weapons Officers (bleedthrough increase) and Conn Officers (evasives reduction/tac team reduction). The vanilla fleet Double D is actually pretty powerful, even without the DOffs. They just make it that much more effective.
Tbh, you can get the DOffs you need with ~5 mil ECs invested. That's not that terribly expensive.
I would advise you to re-read my first post in this thread. It's "average in sci and tac" is not so average after all, since again, it's a battlecruiser, not a destroyer or an escort. It's designed for good tank with decent DPS. The LtCmdr tac gives it everything it needs for damage (since more often than not, Cmdr Tac is just added gravy) and it's LtCmdr sci gives it crowd control. Most cruisers/battlecruisers lack in that department. I mean how many ships can you think of that can tank like a cruiser, and then drop a GW1, CSV1, and APB2? Not many.
I also must disagree, it's not "so so pve viability and close to 0 pvp viability as a DPS tank boat", it's actually closer to "great PvE viability and marginal PvP viability". Great PvE because you have damage and crowd control, and a decent amount of both, and in all honesty a rommie in PvP not using a T'varo or Scimitar is probably not doing it right.
Also, if you read my first post, you'll see you aren't forced to use a beamboat setup (even though it works very well on this ship), you can instead use a gunship setup (which also works well).
Sadly I must agree here. Do NOT run this ship as a torp/mine boat. It can do lots, but it can't do everything XD.
I would suggest this Cannon build for your D'deridex:
Weapons Fore: 3x DHC (energy type and mods up to you), 1x Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo/Quantum Torpedo
Weapons Aft: 2x Turrets, 1x Kinetic Cutting Beam, 1x Tractor Mine Launcher/Nukara Web Mine Launcher (just in case something does get behind you)
Equipment is players choice.
BOffs:
Cmdr Engineering: EPtS1, EPtW2, RSP2, Aux2SIF3/EWP2 (or 3 if you're an engi)
LtCmdr Tactical: TT1, CRF/CSV1, APB2
Ens Tactical: TT1
LtCmdr Science: HE1, TSS2, GW1
Ens Universal: EPtS1 (or another HE1 if you have damage control engineers).
For this particular build, you'd want DOffs that give you reduced cooldown on cannon abilities, but they aren't a must have. They are a nice to have.
With this build, you have great tank (I would know, I run the engi portion on a lot of my cruisers/battlecruisers and they do wonderfully as staying alive goes), good DPS (courtesy of GW, CSV, APB, and a hyper plasma), good utility (HE and TSS for self and team-heals and overall utility), and the GW crowd control.
This particular build enables you to take down groups of enemies, and do decently against singe targets as well. Granted it would be nice if you had a Lt Tactical instead of the double Ensign so you could run a CRF as well in case of single targets, but as is, this build works just fine (I've tested similar builds on other battlecruisers/cruiser variants, and I have as of yet to have issues).
And if you want a beam build, you just need to change up your CSV to BFAW.
See? Not such a lame duck after all.
The D'Deridex is the epitome of a hybrid ship, you need to use the ENG stations to augment what you're trying to do in TAC or SCI. And remember, you have the added luxury of Romulan Battle Cloak.
the point of the discussion is the d'd disappointment, caused by sluggishness of a carrier and overall under-performance in difference to other ships. leeching? and some one called me "close mined"...
we doing this in our fleet as weekly/monthly event, all-miranda private fleet action.
so i would call your position as a prejudice. and which role in team require weak gw, nearly useless warp plasma and a torp spred at same time? a side from the argument "look, i have them!!!" "high end science" is gw3.
and in order to compensate somewhat sluggishness of d'd you need 2-set, which drops you to 8 consoles. well, 5th tac console on scimitar is also only a 5% total gain on damage, but strangely no one laughing about a "waste".
there are situations where 5% additional resists, even with diminishing return, means the difference between survive and explosion. where did i said about ignoring shields? do you like yourself speaking that much that you ignore what other people say or don't say? you know, ignorance isn't a bless. good rhetoric, bad example.
my example, one of my alts flying in a blockade runner got:
about 46k hull and constant resists around 60% for kinetic and 50% on all energy. and i don't even have fleet resists in there because its only a farm alt.
i do survive quite good invisible torps on gates and crystaline fragments on CCE.
do you survive them with your "illogical waste"? allow me to doubt it. allow me to recall one of the rules, rcs work from base turn only and gives very small benefits if the base turn rate is one of the lowest in game.
numbers from live server, t5 refit d'd, alt with helmsman trait, borg engine xii:
no consoles 9.3 turn, 22.03 speed, 70% speed tank.
1 rcs 10.9, 2 rcs 12.6.
2-set with no rcs 11.5 turn, 24.01 speed 75% speed tank.
i don't know how you see this, but benefits of 2-set isn't something to sneeze at. well, ship is actually gaining additional +5 power overall, but as even you would care bout exact reading of the specification.
base turn 9.4, vector mode turn 21.4. simply equivalent of 7.5 rcs consoles....
but that is not even the point.
the point is dhc setup is pointless on d'd but works quite good on assault vector mode, which allow to fulfill damage dealer role.
every role can be fulfilled by ha'apax better then by d'd. because of vector and lt.com universal. d'd will fail on the same scheme even more miserable. d'd wont turn even like assault vector.
science console isn't giving 30%, but 30 points on skill, which has even more diminishing return after rank 6. so gw will be much weaker because of lacking aux power. 1 point power is 2% more on ability, remember? i don't lose 10 weapon and 5 engine, i gain 5 shield and 15 aux to fulfill the role of healer/debuffer. +15 power weight much more then a single science console. that is what you neglect for your convenience. sure. ever seen energy draining torp boat made on intrepid?
or you fail to calculate what difference will it make having 8 torps instead of 6, 3 tac consoles instead of 2 and 3 tac abilities instead of 2? not providing extra impulse modifier? how about 15% impulse speed?
are there many escorts with 4 or even 5 resists? or with dem3 and ep2weap3?
btw. i can live with "only" 75% maximal defense. mine survived quite good, unless it tried to solo a gate or a cube. stupid ai, i know...
btw. 34k hull for guardian and 25k for assault pet is a "bit" more then yellowstone i think.
none of the science ships can have omega, except vesta.
none of the science ships gain additional +5 on shield power on top of the +15 aux as guardian mode ha'apax. that's cruiser level bonus power gain, 20 points total.
i think only tactical vesta has 3 tac consoles, but not sure.
none of science ships got 8 weapons.
so actually guardian while being science like vessel has more firepower then usual science ship and a very strong pet with fire support. overall i gain more then i loose. no pain, no gain, you know?
1 omega torp, 1 dhc, 1 single cannon, 1 dbb fore; 1 beam, 2 turrets, cutting beam aft.
gw+scatter+faw+ts3
so i don't have weak angles, got something for long range damage and still doing quite good uncloaking alpha frontal strike.
i theory it might work well to make aux2bat kinda build with single com.engi boff, but i got tired of d'd and technician doff were to costly for just "trying it out".
I use the Singularity powers to help me out. Due to my lack of shields being a Tac. Also using battle cloak does help to get me to spin around. Or to sit back and heal up some ready for another attack run. So turning rate has yet to be a problem for me.
Where I need to improve is my weapon layout. I have DHCs mounted, and I found out that is not good for this ship. So that will be replaced with another array. So soon as I get into the Romulan Rep. I plan on equipping it with those weapons. So my layout will fit the ship better.
Even the Galaxy R most hate the ship. Due to turn rating or lack of offense. These ships is not for everyone. I like my D'Deridex the way it is. It takes a beating and dishes it out as well.
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Try stacking Particle Generators in those console and drop a Gravimetric Torpedo Spread III. You will see exactly what I am talking about.
Console sets are optional gimmick add-ons, they aren't vital.
You attempted to deflect my shield tanking argument by mentioning that the Ha'apax has a slightly higher shield mod than the D'deridex (which has a slightly higher hull mod). I was demonstrating that all the resists in the world won't help if you don't have a solid shield healing base.
You aren't getting those resistance percentages through simple console stacking, I can tell you that right now. That would be 110 All Energy Damage Resistance Rating and 180 Kinetic Damage Resistance Rating. With 9 points in Starship Hull Plating and Armor Reinforcements, that will bring your resistance rating to 14.5. Stacking 4 Very Rare Mk XII Neutroniums would bring you up to 94.4. I'll assume you have the Tier IV Defensive Nukara passive, bringing you up to 48% All Energy Damage Resistance and 46.7% All Kinetic Damage Resistance. The 48% All Energy Damage Resistance effectively means it would take 68,080 energy damage or 67,482 kinetic damage to destroy the ship outright, assuming your 46,000 hull.
Compare that to a player using just two Fleet Neutronium consoles and 3 points in Starship Hull Plating and Armor Reinforcements. Toss on the Nukara passive as well. This will give the player about 36.7% Kinetic Damage Resistance and 38% All Energy Damage Resistance. It would take 63,480 energy damage or 62,882 kinetic damage to destroy the ship outright, assuming your 46,000 hull.
Interesting, +2 more All damage resistance is only increasing the amount of kinetic or energy damage the ship may take by +4,600. Now, let's throw in resistance buffs to see what happens. Auxiliary to Structural Integrity Field I will grant about +25 All Damage Resistance Rating. That will bring the 4 resistance console ship up to 52.3% All Energy Damage Resistance and 51.8% Kinetic Damage Resistance. The 2 resistance console ship will be brought up to about 44.5% All Energy Damage Resistance and the Kinetic Damage Resistance will be brought up to about 44.4% Kinetic Damage Resistance.
This means it will take 70,058 energy damage or 69,828 kinetic damage to destroy the 4 resistance console ship outright. Compare that to the 2 resistance console ship. It would take 66,470 energy damage or 66,424 kinetic damage to destroy the ship outright. A single resistance buff cuts the energy gap from +4,600 to +3,588 energy and +3,358 kinetic difference. Throw in the Tier IV Dyson Resistance passive and the difference between the 4 console resistance ship and the 2 console resistance ship drops into the hundreds. Which means +2 resistance consoles are essentially allowing your ship to take an extra hit...or two. If the player is using a large number of damage resistance buffs, that number goes into the double digits, which means it's less than half of a hit.
I point blank the Crystaline Entity on Elite with a Science Vesta all the time. Even on the Vesta with it's low hull, shards aren't a problem.
Wait, weren't you just condemning this set as terrible a minute ago? RCS work on the formula of (Base Turn * RCS Percentage) = Bonus Turn. Each RCS Accelerator will give the D'deridex about +2.4 tun per console. Not great, but the bonus isn't terrible either.
5 RCS consoles actually.
If you are trying to fulfill a damage dealer role, you should switch to the Ha'feh. The Ha'anom is a warbird cruiser, not a tactical warbird.
The D'deridex doesn't need to choose between universals because it already has two Lt. Commander slots. As I have explained several posts before, achieving workable turn rate on the D'deridex is not difficult.
Science abilities do not suffer from diminishing returns, they are a vertical increase scaling on the number of skill points in a given skill. The only thing in the entire game subject to diminishing returns is damage resistance.
You lose a total of 15 power to gain 20 power, that is a net gain of 5, but it's still a substantial power loss.
Considering it's already possible to achieve 125 Auxiliary power on the D'deridex without the use of a console, I don't see how this is significant in any way shape or form. Auxiliary is capped at 125, there is no bonus for overcapping Auxiliary.
Torpedoes have a 1 second shared cooldown. With the proper layout, they won't be using more than three of those torpedoes at any given time. Science Vessels focus on frontal weapon damage, which means it has more than enough slots to accommodate it's forward weapon arsenal. Science Vessel Torpedo boats don't even need Tactical consoles to be effective. Most use the tactical station for Science based universals.
Now you are comparing the Ha'apax to escorts? The Heavy Escort Carrier, Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, Fleet Patrol Escort, and Fleet Mogai are all a few examples that may reach nearly the same amounts of survivability as the Ha'apax. All of which exceed the Ha'apax in their ability to turn and deal damage.
You are forgetting about the Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit, Wells Temporal Science Vessel, and the Voth Palisade Science Vessel,
That is because the Ha'apax is a cruiser, not a Science Vessel.
The Tactical Vesta has four tactical console slots, same with the Fleet Reconnaissance Science Vessel. Only the Fleet Olympus, Fleet Nebula, and Voth Palisade Science Vessel have less than 3 Tactical console slots.
The Ha'apax doesn't have Sensor Analysis or Subsystem Targeting. Without those abilities, the Ha'apax is missing two key defining Science Vessel features.
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in one sentence you want use turn improving stuff, in another you call it gimmick.
its looks kinda you don't know what to answer. pure polemic without a sense. while everyone has right to think what they want, remember that your thoughts are not a substitution for other people words. i never pointed it out either. once again you like to hear yourself speaking.
its both, consoles and abilities i use. well, i prefer to compare exploding scimitars on gates due to invisible torps while i barely notice them. of course, having science ship with a lot of crowd control abilities will save your butt.
but we aren't talking about crowd controls, we talking about tanking. again, you like yourself speaking.
those numbers are from live server. 1 rcs is around 1.5-1.6. 12/1.6=7.5. you ha bad notes in math during school time? my condolences. well, for starting with the fact that ha'nom is a science ship.
then your argument was about the (not existing) versatility of d'd.
which were replayed by me with the argument that in therms of versatility haakona/ha'apax outperform the d'd. yeah, inability is an advantage, sure.... hahahahaha open up the skill window of a character and notice carefully green, yellow and red bars below every skill as well as numbers noticed there. then think about it 5 minutes before replay. gain=loss? kinda female logic, you know...... it has the same significance as appropriate bonus levels tied to every ship in game to profile it to specific role. everyone can eat a battery, that isn't an argument.
argument was the versatility, where haakona/ha'apax outperforms d'd in every possible way. yea, sure. never seen scimi with 5 torpedos? i bet you don't. i don't. i just pointed out that you can't properly read the documentation.
assault mode indeed DOES receive impulse speed bonus where you stated it doesn't. wells and palisade both are lockboxes. with same argument you can say "federation got battlecloak" just because you can get the bulwark with 3-set.
and for one nova i see 100 vesta flying around. or yes, it is. guardian vector mode gets all usual science related perks like shield stats and +15 aux. on top of that it also gain +5 on shield and a strong pet. which of them got 8 weapons AND 3 tactical console slots? subsystem? seriously? who the hell would use it and cutting the dps by TRIBBLE FAW cooldown?
sensor analysis isn't that game breaking feature as it would some people like.
guardian got 8 weapons, which means 33% more firepower from the first sec.
analysis need whole minute to get 33% bonus.
most important is the fact that haakona/ha'apax indeed does has the versatility to mimic every play style.
it never be "as like" as role specific ship, but it will be indeed pretty much "near as like".
d'd is by no way as versatile as ha'apax can be.
which leads us to the topic - what good d'd is for?
damage? its kinda bottom line on damage.
tanking? there are better tanker out there.
cc havoc? a single weak gw can barely change the tide on d'd. in difference the prometheus with gw isn't same as d'd with gw.
then you came with versatility. but even in that category there are ships, which more versatile then d'd.
so what d'd is good for? except for looking good and stuffing the place on warp map.
I'm going to ignore the rest of your post since it's just pointless and rather immature argumenation and just comment on this part.
You are correct, the Haakona can mimic almost every play style. BUT can it do it simultaneously? That was your main comment that it can do everything the D'deridex can. But it can't. Why? Because while it can do everything the double D can, it can't do them at the same time.
And you're wrong btw. It's damage output is equal to most fed and KDF battlecruisers. Which btw, that's what the double D is. A battlecruiser class warbird. As tanking goes? One Cmdr Engi is all you'd ever need. Period. Having more Eng is just a waste of BOff space. And you're comment about the CC? There are more things to life than gravity well. And it should be noted that after the GW patch, a GW1 is still incredibly powerful, even if all you have is 3 points in particle gens and graviton gens. But what you're missing out is that you can also have something else there, like an Energy Siphon, a Tykens Rift, a much stronger heal (IE TSS3 or HE3).
And tbh, there aren't that many ships that are equal to the double D in versatility. Those other ships might be versatile, but they have weak versatility whereas the double D has STRONG versatility. I find it somewhat amusing that you keep on discounting the fact that this ship has a double LtCmdr slot, something that I think there are maybe two other ships that have. So I am sorry to say, on that point you're dead wrong. The other ones, somewhat close minded and maybe a tad misinformed, but on that last one, dead wrong.
the d'deridex will always be beter then the hapax, because it can leverage LTC tac and LTC sci abilities at the same time. meaning the ship can use every single station power in the game, in any combination. the hapax can only go overboard on tac or overboard on sci, and with the ENS tac set in stone, have pretty gutted customization compared to the other flagship cruisers.
It's by far my favorite ship and the only conclusion I can draw is that most of the complaints about turn rate especially come from people trying to use cannons on it, or people that cloak once at the beginning of the game then never cloak again.
DO NOT USE CANNONS ON IT.
Not only do you not have the turn rate to support cannons you also don't have the boff seating to get access to the high tier tac abilities that will make cannons work properly.
The D'Deridex is best used as a pure beam boat. You can get FAW2 and ATB2 or ATO1 and those are all you really need in terms of tactical abilities. The other two slots are either tac team x2 or tac team plus whatever you want to run for giggles if you're using aux to battery.
YOU WANT TO BE USING AUX TO BATTERY
Aux to battery is what lets the triple ltcm/commander layout shine. Now instead of having 3 mid/high level abilities on full cooldowns you've got 3 mid/high level abilities on short cooldowns or with constant uptime.
I like to run TSS3 and EptS3 constantly. Combined with an elite fleet adaptive shield the amount of damage reduction on your shields gets ridiculous.
Add in a valdore console and adequate points in shield emitters and flow caps and your shields aren't going to drop to anything other than some kind of weird lagspike insta kill or massive crit.
If you do start getting slowly worn down you've got the singularity shield power to hide behind while you leech/heal more shield back, and if even that doesn't work you've still got RsP3 waiting in the wings and the battle cloaking device as an absolute last ditch. That said though you should be cloaking every time there's nothing in weapons range, to reposition and for the damage buff. So many Romulan players I see in game will cloak once at the beginning of the game then never cloak again, basically wasting one of the biggest assets every Romulan ship has.
My overall impression from playing it as long as I have is that the D'Deridex is a ship about tanking massive amounts of damage while dealing out moderate to high constant damage itself. It's more of an offensive tank with some nasty teeth than a heal/support type tanking cruiser, or a more offense oriented but fragile ship like the Scimitar or Dominion dread.
It can both give a nasty punch AND take one, and that's probably why I like it so much.
Avoid the flashy science powers and just concentrate on bolstering either survivability or damage and you'll be better off. It's a ship that does seem easy to get distracted in just because they give you so many options. Just because you have them though doesn't mean you want or need them.
What's wrong with heal boats? Healers are essential in teamed PvP.
Just last week, I kept our outmatched (4v5) team alive for 10 minutes longer than they should have been alive, simply because of the Fleet D'Deridex. Total healing score 3+ million (other team's healer was around 2 million). I'd say that's pretty crucial to a match.
Don't count out the heal boats, they keep your glass cannons runnin'.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
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Some might not like the ship, but to me I love it.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Yes, but most players tend to focus on efficacy in PVE, where healboats and pure tanks are for the most part a waste of a team slot, because the content is easy and the AI sucks. All you really need to keep an engi/tac cruiser with a halfway competent captain self-healed in PVE is EPTS1 and Hazard Emitters (preferably HE2). Escorts are trickier but not by much.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdCUpiI1MSA
My character Tsin'xing
You need to go back and take a second look at how skill points work. The skill tree's point investment increases price the farther the player travels up the skill point tree. The skill bonuses themselves don't have diminishing returns. However, slotting a +Particle Generator console will give a flat increase to the skill without diminishing returns.
The D'deridex has 5.5 turn rate. Each extra RCS Accelerator provides a 42.5% turn rate boost via the ship's base turn rate (Fleet Ultra Rare Mk XII). This means 5.5 * 0.425 = 2.3375. 12/2.4 = 5.
I've already proven this statement false in my previous posts.
A Scimitar torpedo boat is much less threatening than a Dual Heavy Cannon or Fire at Will Scimitar.
At the price of -5 Engine Power and -10 Weapon power.
As I have mentioned, they have sensor analysis instead of extra weapon slots.
This is completely missing the point of using a ship as a Science Vessel.
(sigh), it's clear you don't use Science Vessels.
I give up, hereticknight was correct, you are close minded and beyond hope.
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Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Weeelll... Besides the Vor'Cha. That one apparently got spared. I guess we have some Klingon fans among the Devs after all.
What took you so long? XD
Thanks, I will try that next time I log on.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
My bad, I thought the poster was describing PvP. Yeah, in PvE, the D'Deridex has a tougher time keeping up with other warbirds, simply due to console layout.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Tougher than my scimi and hits very hard. Love it.
Just might not fit the playstyle of others...especially growing up on all those manuverable warbirds.
Just remember...cut full impulse and throw in reverse well before you get to the target so you rest close to but not past it...takes a little practice.
Park, reverse and pivot while killing enemies.
If you are not cloaking at every practical opportunity...you should not fly warbirds...especially this one.
Singularity projectile works well to group enemies for the kill
We are talking about a playerbase that complains when a turn rate is below 15.
Eh, I made an educated guess. First post doesn't actually say either way.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
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