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  • rmy1081rmy1081 Member Posts: 2,840 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I don't know if this has been said yet, but Hazard emitters clears both energy Siphon and Tykens Rift.
  • generator88generator88 Member Posts: 698 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    I don't know if this has been said yet, but Hazard emitters clears both energy Siphon and Tykens Rift.

    It sure has, but OP isn't keen to hear it.

    Generator
    =================

    I'm sure your DPS is great, but as Kahless said, "a petaQ with high system mastery is still a petaQ." (Well, he should have said it...!)
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    While having 125/125/125/5 power thanks to Aux to Battery I is NOT OP, I presume? :rolleyes:

    No, it's not OP, aux to bat people sacrifice healing for that build and most ships can run around with 125 weapons and shields anyway and the boost given from engines isn't so epic as to be OP. I don't even use that build and I still don't find it OP.
    Look, let's just cut to the chase here and Expose what you're REALLY complaining about.

    You don't like having CONTROL of your ship taken away from you.

    This is a fairly common complaint in ALL games that feature PvP, in that players "hate it" when they are reduced from being PLAYERS and are turned into SPECTATORS by what happens in the game, unable to affect the outcome of what is currently happening. This is fundamentally a complaint about CONTROL of your character (in this case, your ship), and how an enterprising adversary figured out a method to take that control away from you ... so you cry for a NERF so that you are never denied CONTROL (because doing so is, as you say, an "OP" thing to do).

    The irony of course is that players have NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER with using these exact same abilities and combinations on PvE Foes (who can't exactly complain) ... but as soon as they're the VICTIM of such abilities and combinations in PvP ... well ... The Tears Must Flow to form a River that will reach The Salty Sea Of Grievances Eternal.

    Yes, you are right, no player should ever lose control of their ship, the complete inability to do anything, to react, to counter, etc. to be made entirely helpless in a game where an escort can already pop you in two seconds even when you are able to react is unacceptable. I don't know how it is you think this is okay... the escorts shouldn't be able to 2 second pop, and the sci ships shouldn't be able to drain your power to 0. Elite stfs shouldn't be completed in 2 minutes flat. how is a game that actually takes a bit of time a bad thing? when did we start heading to instapop is how everything should be? I can tell by your incredibly sarcastic tone that you think I'm being ridiculous and that everything is working the way it should, but I find you incredibly riduclous too for thinking that, so I guess we're even.
    So ... here's a trick question for you. You ready? :rolleyes:

    If it's an "OP" thing to be able to drain your power levels to zero ... why is it not an "OP" thing to be able to drain your hull points to zero? After all, both of these tactics force you into the role of being a Spectator rather than a Player ... although, to be fair, getting your power levels drained to zero doesn't in and of itself put "points on the board" like having your hull getting drained to zero.

    Again, the ridiculous comparison between power levels at zero and dying. The game has to let people die, someone has to lose. Lets not be stupid, shall we? You know FULL WELL that there is a massive difference between energy levels at zero, and inability to fight back when you're still in the game, and the state of not being able to fight back after taking a loss. God, why do people keep throwing that out there thinking they're so clever when it's obviously childish BS logic? *EYE* *ROLL*
    And in a slightly LESS rhetorical question sense ...

    What if the minimum power you could be drained down to in any subsystem was your (Power Insulators Skill Level / 10)? So if you've got 6 pumps in Power Insulators for a skill level of 84 ... the lowest your power levels could be drained would be down to 8.4 each. The drain would be "crippling" but it wouldn't be TOTAL.

    Of course, if you rewrite the underlying mechanics LIKE THAT, so as to give a "fractional immunity" to Drains functionality to Power Insulators, you'd need to do something to compensate Power Draining effects and abilities to mitigate that "loss" of effectiveness and functionality. So, to compensate, you wind up rewriting the Drain mechanics system such that rather than draining -X for Y seconds, and if the amount of Drain hits the "hardcap" provided by Power Insulators then the Drain just "loses" and it sucks-to-be-you ... instead you wind up with a Drain mechanics system where you have a "Drain Quota" to fill that is given a maximum "rate" of Drain, but if the overall Drain levels "hit the hardcap" then the amount of total Drain is "throttled back" to match what is needed to reach that hardcap but the time used to Drain that total amount is increased meaning the Drain lasts longer to compensate for the fact that it isn't Draining at 100% capacity on every tick.

    So for simplicity of illustration purposes, if I've got an ability that can Drain -10 Power per second for 10 seconds, making for a nice round "100 Drain Capacity" to keep the math easy ... if I run into a situation where for some reason or another that ability can only Drain -5 Power per second (due to hitting a "hardcap" somewhere), then the duration of the ability is extended from 10 seconds to 20 seconds in order to reach the same "100 Drain Capacity" in terms of its effect(s). That way, Drain Capacity isn't "wasted" by overcapping Drain.

    Nope, we dont' have to compensate for hard cap that prevents total power drain, particularly not a hard cap as low as 8.9. This ridiculous notion that we would have to double the length of effect because it wasn't able to COMPLETELY cripple you, t only tied you to a stone and threw you in the river, but you could technically still swim... yeah, no. that doesn't need to increase the length of the skill or "compensate for lack of effectiveness." Power drain, apparently, ACCORDING TO THE DEVS, should not bring you to 0 because the crippling state is OP. If it is OP to be crippled by 0 power from tyken's, it is OP to be crippled from power drain in general.

    Power Drain, like so many other Crowd Control abilities tends to be an All Or Nothing kind of deal. This is substantially a legacy of City of Heroes and its Mezz Mechanics, where you were either Mezzed or you Weren't, with no real "useful" middle ground in between in terms of "degrading" capabilities for meaningful effect. Because of how the game mechanics operate under the hood, there really isn't a whole lot of "value" in having some kind of "partial" Crowd Control as opposed to "total" Crowd Control.

    Kind of like how being "all dead" is more useful than being "half dead" in terms of controlling hostile forces. :P

    The key point here being that in order to achieve this kind of performance AT ALL requires stacking multiple abilities (some of which have cooldowns in excess of 30 seconds) backed up by an entire Build Plan (involving console selections and skill investment choices) all aimed at delivering this ONE synergistic performance result. In other words, you're complaining about being "victimized" by a COMBINATION OF SCIENCE ABILITIES that when used creatively is able to effectively "neutralize" you in PvP so that ANOTHER player can take advantage of the situation.

    At THAT point, you're just whining that you're not INVULNERABLE TO EVERYTHING and can't play on Ghod Mode. Even worse, you're complaining that you can't negate an adversary's ENTIRE BUILD STRATEGY by investing 30,000 skill points (or 8.2% of your total available) into a SINGLE SKILL (6 pumps into Power Insulators)!

    "Cry me a river" seems to be a very appropriate response at this point.

    Imagine what would happen if you could invest points into Threat Control skill to passively "negate" the value of Beam Overload ... or Fire At Will ... or High Yield Torpedo ... or Torpedo Spread ... or Dispersal Pattern Beta ... or Attack Pattern <All!> ... or ... :eek:

    Oh please, I don't mind being killed, I don't expect to be invulnerable, I do expect it to take longer than two seconds, and I also don't expect to be crippled by power drain, no matter what lengths were gone to for that to happen. You all keep fussing and whining that it was oh soooo hard for that sci to make this build... erm... 5 flow cap consoles? cry ME that river, cause that's not that big of an "investment." Ya'll talk about it like its OH, MY, GOD, that person just tried so hard and did so much... erm, no, that wasn't very difficult at all.

    I don't expect to be immune to power drain from 6 points into power insulators, I expect that no player should ever be able to completely cripple me with power drain and then just pick at my carcass for as long as they like or have their buddy come along and blow me apart. My problem is not with team work, my problem is not with dying, my problem is not with all these hyperbolic BS's ya'll keep throwing out there. It is with power drain to 0, especially because if this is possible with one ship, two of these puppies can definitely do it, and if PVP devolves into sci cripple, it will be no better than when it was all escort instapop, especially since instapop hasn't been nerfed, so what we have here is a force multiplier of instapop on top of crippled. Good god, I have no idea how people can be so DENSE as to think this is ok.
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    lucho80 wrote: »
    Very true. This guy is complaining while probably running around with a bunch of extra crit universal consoles and doesn't want to give up his precious DPS in order to resist drains more. In order to get to the max flow caps, you have to sacrifice a lot as far as DSP goes (and probably survivability). I'll give you the list just so you see how much you have to use to max it out.
    1) Best deflector is probably the MK XII Jem'Hadar deflector. Not exactly the best set out there, but if you use two parts, you get extra polaron damage.
    2) Rule 62 console and plasmonic leech (There go 2 console slots)
    3) 5 embassy flow capacitor consoles (There go 5 more slots, but you can choose extra hull or shield heal to help)
    4) Max out flow caps in the skill tree
    5) Inspirational leader (To get up to 30 more)
    6) I'd add power insulators just because you don't want to get drained yourself.

    Now adding all that up, I think it's 286 in standard flow caps (approx). Plus you need the romulan tier 5 rep completed to add another +100 for 8 seconds, BUT you only have 3 console slots left. Guess what, you've sacrificed engineer and/or tactical consoles slots in the process. So to the OP, there is your weakness. Guy has probably little to no armor and low DPS.

    Um, no, I don't use any of those crit consoles, so no, I'm not some tac in an escort who can do those 2 second instapops and is crying because some mean sci came and shut me down.

    And, guess what? can't kill something when your power is at 0 so... yeah, their weakness doesn't really matter, especially because the team did go after this person and they tanked like a champ so... nope, it doesn't seem they gave up any of their tankiness for this build and all sci have low DPS, that's how the devs made them, cause they're cruel, i suppose.
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    rmy1081 wrote: »
    I don't know if this has been said yet, but Hazard emitters clears both energy Siphon and Tykens Rift.
    It sure has, but OP isn't keen to hear it.

    Generator

    can't use hazards when your aux is at 0, what is so difficult to grasp about this concept?

    And if hazards is the answer and if it's on cool, then too bad, then maybe at the very least just aux shouldn't be able to hit zero, maybe 5 power at the bottom of your reserve power is preserved to give you a chance to counter. Either way, I'm not going to continue to argue this point. Apparently everyone thinks that everything in this game is functioning juuuust the way it should, so whatever. The river has been cried, and everyone came to drown me in it. /end thread.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited October 2013
    Um, no, I don't use any of those crit consoles, so no, I'm not some tac in an escort who can do those 2 second instapops and is crying because some mean sci came and shut me down.

    And, guess what? can't kill something when your power is at 0 so... yeah, their weakness doesn't really matter, especially because the team did go after this person and they tanked like a champ so... nope, it doesn't seem they gave up any of their tankiness for this build and all sci have low DPS, that's how the devs made them, cause they're cruel, i suppose.

    You've been told repeatedly that HE (An ensign level ability) clears ES and TR. Also, neither ES or TR drains you instantly, so you have time to react by using EPtE or Evasive Maneuvers and getting the heck away from Tyken's Rift.

    You make it sound like there are a lot of ships running around with heavy drain builds which isn't the case. The guy who drained you:
    a) Unlikely, but could have stacked flow caps buffs from the doff assignment. (Not easy being a Rare assignment)
    b) Used the Romulan tier 5 rep power before throwing the drains at you. That is just bad luck for you because it lasts only 8 seconds.
    c) Gotten lucky and was using polaron weapons that got a proc on you.

    If he drained one of your power levels, then you need to learn from your experience and make sure the one that gets drained isn't the one you need to survive and get away. Keeping engines at low power was your fault, not the drain boat's.

    Learn from your bad experience and improve so next time you can get away from the power sucking vampire that has made you so angry.

    Just out of curiosity, what build are you using anyway?
  • captainforfuncaptainforfun Member Posts: 154 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    No, it's not OP, aux to bat people sacrifice healing for that build and most ships can run around with 125 weapons and shields anyway and the boost given from engines isn't so epic as to be OP. I don't even use that build and I still don't find it OP.

    So others don't sacrifice anything for their builds?
    Yes, you are right, no player should ever lose control of their ship, the complete inability to do anything, to react, to counter, etc. to be made entirely helpless in a game where an escort can already pop you in two seconds even when you are able to react is unacceptable. I don't know how it is you think this is okay... the escorts shouldn't be able to 2 second pop, and the sci ships shouldn't be able to drain your power to 0. Elite stfs shouldn't be completed in 2 minutes flat. how is a game that actually takes a bit of time a bad thing? when did we start heading to instapop is how everything should be? I can tell by your incredibly sarcastic tone that you think I'm being ridiculous and that everything is working the way it should, but I find you incredibly riduclous too for thinking that, so I guess we're even.

    Dunno if you understand the concept of controll abilities. But basically they are meant to control the oponent. And as already explained to you by anotehr ppl, control is a do or don't thing. Either you can nail down a oponent, or shut down systems completely or you can't. Anything else is just a debuff and not controlling anything.
    Again, the ridiculous comparison between power levels at zero and dying. The game has to let people die, someone has to lose. Lets not be stupid, shall we? You know FULL WELL that there is a massive difference between energy levels at zero, and inability to fight back when you're still in the game, and the state of not being able to fight back after taking a loss. God, why do people keep throwing that out there thinking they're so clever when it's obviously childish BS logic? *EYE* *ROLL*

    So where is the problem of letting people die with some control stuff instead of pure force? And that you can't fight back is just not true, since there are counters, not to mention that you have a team that should support you.
    Nope, we dont' have to compensate for hard cap that prevents total power drain, particularly not a hard cap as low as 8.9. This ridiculous notion that we would have to double the length of effect because it wasn't able to COMPLETELY cripple you, t only tied you to a stone and threw you in the river, but you could technically still swim... yeah, no. that doesn't need to increase the length of the skill or "compensate for lack of effectiveness." Power drain, apparently, ACCORDING TO THE DEVS, should not bring you to 0 because the crippling state is OP. If it is OP to be crippled by 0 power from tyken's, it is OP to be crippled from power drain in general.

    As long as you can counter it, it isn't OP and you can counter it quite easy and for sure.
    Oh please, I don't mind being killed, I don't expect to be invulnerable, I do expect it to take longer than two seconds, and I also don't expect to be crippled by power drain, no matter what lengths were gone to for that to happen. You all keep fussing and whining that it was oh soooo hard for that sci to make this build... erm... 5 flow cap consoles? cry ME that river, cause that's not that big of an "investment." Ya'll talk about it like its OH, MY, GOD, that person just tried so hard and did so much... erm, no, that wasn't very difficult at all.

    The investment is more the point what you could put in the slots instead of the flow cap consoles. And i can asure you it makes your ship weaker in other terms then.
    I don't expect to be immune to power drain from 6 points into power insulators, I expect that no player should ever be able to completely cripple me with power drain and then just pick at my carcass for as long as they like or have their buddy come along and blow me apart. My problem is not with team work, my problem is not with dying, my problem is not with all these hyperbolic BS's ya'll keep throwing out there. It is with power drain to 0, especially because if this is possible with one ship, two of these puppies can definitely do it, and if PVP devolves into sci cripple, it will be no better than when it was all escort instapop, especially since instapop hasn't been nerfed, so what we have here is a force multiplier of instapop on top of crippled. Good god, I have no idea how people can be so DENSE as to think this is ok.

    So it is ok for a high dps ship to kill something alone, but it is not ok for a sci to nail you down get someone to kill you faster? Kinda pathetic...

    Ever tried to pop a batterie to get some energy to activate skills, or ever tried to get some help from a teammate?

    I mean the whole point of draining someones energy is to make him more or less defenseless and prevent him from taking active part into combat until the skill runs out or the target got destroyed, if he isn't countering it.

    Basically the same if you decide to set focusfire on 1 target, if there is no support for it, it will go down pretty fast.

    I really hope they make the new npc's of the next season really strong, maybe you start to learn handle such things then instead of crying for a nerf..
    Reynolds / Thokal

    U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
    U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
    TheWiseGuys
  • wrathofachilleswrathofachilles Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Like I said, you can't use hazard emitters if your aux is gone. With engines set to minimum I still have 50 engine power, so it's not like I had "low power" in engines, this person was just THAT good at draining that my aux and engines were down in literally two seconds.

    Like I have said repeatedly NO, IT IS NOT OKAY for one ship to kill another in two seconds with pure force. People who keep bringing that up must not be paying attention. I have already listed several mechanics which could prevent that sort of throttling, yet everyone seems to be ignoring it. I don't think tacs should be able to instapop people, I don't think sci should be able to drain energy down to zero.

    It's a moot point, everyone's ganged up to defend the game and it's perfect balance and mechanics, so, like I said, thread over. Ya'll win the debate, 0 power isn't OP, in fact it's a tragedy that sci can't more easily suck all power dry, lets hope the devs fix that.
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited October 2013
    No, what's happened is you came across a certain build that proved effective against you and instead of learning the counters, trying it out and improving you've come along crying for a huge nerf to the usefulness of a science ship.

    Try slotting an aux battery so you can use HE and cleanse it all in emergencies. Once again I will say this.

    If you think it's OP then post in the tykens rift feedback thread in the PvP forums.

    Also can you stop saying the devs say you shouldn't be able to drain power to 0. It is a misquote and a twisting of what was said. What Bort said is he didn't want to make tykens rift into a single iWin button. With that he means for someone to use it and it will drain to 0 immediately. It will take at least 3s for someone at 50 power to be drained to 0 as it currently is, that's 3 whole seconds to stop faffing around and hit a counter.

    Already have your aux offline? Simple aux battery, emergency to aux or just plain get your team to help. Not got any of that? Ah well fair play.

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • lucho80lucho80 Member Posts: 6,600 Bug Hunter
    edited October 2013
    bpharma wrote: »
    No, what's happened is you came across a certain build that proved effective against you and instead of learning the counters, trying it out and improving you've come along crying for a huge nerf to the usefulness of a science ship.

    Try slotting an aux battery so you can use HE and cleanse it all in emergencies. Once again I will say this.

    If you think it's OP then post in the tykens rift feedback thread in the PvP forums.

    Also can you stop saying the devs say you shouldn't be able to drain power to 0. It is a misquote and a twisting of what was said. What Bort said is he didn't want to make tykens rift into a single iWin button. With that he means for someone to use it and it will drain to 0 immediately. It will take at least 3s for someone at 50 power to be drained to 0 as it currently is, that's 3 whole seconds to stop faffing around and hit a counter.

    Already have your aux offline? Simple aux battery, emergency to aux or just plain get your team to help. Not got any of that? Ah well fair play.

    To achillesswrath (or should I say Achilles's heel given his weak point):

    Bpharma and everyone else that has responded is right. You'd have to go overboard on flow caps, and the target to be an idiot and just sit there, to get completely drained by Tyken's Rift alone. If you fear drain builds so much and like hitting the space bar mindlessly only then max out power insulators. In fact, I personally hate how powerful power insulators are so if you actually spent 6 points on the skill (47% resistance) and got drained, tough luck. You just had a bad build against drains. Everyone knows sci builds need some buffing so you won't find any friends to support you here.
  • pwestinkspwestinks Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited December 2013
    To wrathofachilles:

    I run, what you would call an OP Drain Boat. I am a SCI Captain. I think you are not thinking about the overall aesthetic of the principal of the game. There are three types of captains, that can fly ships that are geared to those three captain types. Autumnturning's post about "Rock, Paper, Scissors" delivered the idea in the most efficient manner.

    Tactical Captains blow things up...all DPS. Put a Tac. Capt. in an escort, let him outfit the skills and weapons to the ship, and he/she will deliver a high body count.

    Engineer Captains manipulate the hull and tank. Put an Eng. Capt. in a cruiser let him outfit the skills and weapons to the ship, and he/she will keep people alive, heal hulls, repair subsystems and take forever to die.

    Science Captains are about shield tanking and crowd control. Sensors, subsystem targeting, shield drains, power drains, placation and the rest.

    Viral Matrix came out and people like me began to make the most of it. Cryptic swung a huge nerf bat at it and now it is a useless skill. So, Sci Captains, like myself, had to come up with another way to have fun with what we have. I will never out-damage a Tac Capt. It just can't happen. I will never have the resilience of a Eng Capt. Snowball in hell... What I do is control, PERIOD! Now, it is not nice to be on the receiving end. And for that part, I morn for you. But in order to make my drain ship work, I have to overlap things in ways that make the simple act of going to the grocery store for eggs DAMN EXPENSIVE. Not just in EC, but Captain points, time doing missions to get the right gear, negotiating unreal pricing with crafters for items that don't make it on to the exchange, the flat dollar amount to buy the things I need from the C-Store.

    Now, let us not forget, every trick up my sleeve has a counter...every single one. None of them, thankfully, have been truly discussed yet. And this is true for every Science Captain's bag of tricks.

    You don't like having your ship tripped into power shutdown, I can relate. You play PVP, how many people have you flat-destroyed? Owned, Pwned? How many people have you outmaneuvered for the kill-shot? How long did it take for you learn your class and your ship? How much did you spend? How many stupid episode missions did you have to fly to get the gear?

    You and I are going to be in an arena together, that is certain. You are going to kill me. I am going to control you into the void of space. That is just way of it. But when you kill me, I wont cry about the fairness of your Dual Heavy Cannons. I will just come back stronger, with a better way to control them.

    I am using multiple skills to drain your ship to "0", and before you get started with "Power drain, apparently, ACCORDING TO THE DEVS, should not bring you to 0 because the crippling state is OP. If it is OP to be crippled by 0 power from tyken's, it is OP to be crippled from power drain in general." I do not believe that is a true statement, they were normally talking about specific skills, like Tyken's Rift III. I have yet to see the Devs get directly involved in full power drain builds.

    Wrath, you once said, "Oh please, I don't mind being killed, I don't expect to be invulnerable." Well, you are vulnerable to power drain. Expectations achieved.
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