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Cannon Jockeys and Beamer's
capnshadow27
Member Posts: 1,731 Arc User
WARNING MATH! AND IDEAS!! :eek:
Below is something people need to understand in the constant war between cannons and beams.
Also Below is ideas to add to the Cannon Jockeys collection, and add to the Beamer's Collection.
For Reference:
Cannon Jockey's are people who like Escort's/Cannon's.
Beamer's are people who prefer using Beams.
Effectively you have 7 weapons and 8 Weapons.
Cannons and Turrets are 256 x4 + 132 x3 = 1420 BASE Mk XII
Beams are 176 x8 = 1402 BASE Mk XII
So cannon whiners be gone.
Also BFAW is MEANT to increase DPS, 1, 2, and 3 increase by 25% , 32% and 40% Respectively.
CRF 1, 2 and 3 improves BASE damage by 30%, 40% and 50% respectively.
BO 1, 2, and 3 inflicts 600%, 725% and 850% increased damage.
CSV 1, 2 and 3 improves BASE damage by 15%, 20% and 25% Respectively.
So yes DHC/Turret combo does 18 more damage than beams BY DESIGN than beams are all you get. Plus the +10 to Crit Severity inherent in them.
The only way DHC will be what all these whiny cannon jockeys want is if they create DT's, and DHT's. Dual Turrets and Dual Heavy Turrets. But suffer from increased power draw.
DT's -8 WP 180 Base Damage, DHT's -10 WP 180 Base Damage +10 Critical Severity. Maybe that would make you cannon whiners happy and let you finally ACTUALLY do more total base damage than beam runners, while suffering more power loss of course like beam users always do.
Oh and for you cannon junkies you get what? Single Cannons, Turrets, Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons. Beam guys get......Beam Array and Dual Beam Bank, the latter has nothing to increase frontal damage to put in the rear, like say a 360 degree Beam Array that has -8 WP and does 132 Base damage. We get the rear array to help out DBB's and you get better turrets for your backside. But oh wait that would still keep us on pretty even footing wouldn't it.....
Below is something people need to understand in the constant war between cannons and beams.
Also Below is ideas to add to the Cannon Jockeys collection, and add to the Beamer's Collection.
For Reference:
Cannon Jockey's are people who like Escort's/Cannon's.
Beamer's are people who prefer using Beams.
Effectively you have 7 weapons and 8 Weapons.
Cannons and Turrets are 256 x4 + 132 x3 = 1420 BASE Mk XII
Beams are 176 x8 = 1402 BASE Mk XII
So cannon whiners be gone.
Also BFAW is MEANT to increase DPS, 1, 2, and 3 increase by 25% , 32% and 40% Respectively.
CRF 1, 2 and 3 improves BASE damage by 30%, 40% and 50% respectively.
BO 1, 2, and 3 inflicts 600%, 725% and 850% increased damage.
CSV 1, 2 and 3 improves BASE damage by 15%, 20% and 25% Respectively.
So yes DHC/Turret combo does 18 more damage than beams BY DESIGN than beams are all you get. Plus the +10 to Crit Severity inherent in them.
The only way DHC will be what all these whiny cannon jockeys want is if they create DT's, and DHT's. Dual Turrets and Dual Heavy Turrets. But suffer from increased power draw.
DT's -8 WP 180 Base Damage, DHT's -10 WP 180 Base Damage +10 Critical Severity. Maybe that would make you cannon whiners happy and let you finally ACTUALLY do more total base damage than beam runners, while suffering more power loss of course like beam users always do.
Oh and for you cannon junkies you get what? Single Cannons, Turrets, Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons. Beam guys get......Beam Array and Dual Beam Bank, the latter has nothing to increase frontal damage to put in the rear, like say a 360 degree Beam Array that has -8 WP and does 132 Base damage. We get the rear array to help out DBB's and you get better turrets for your backside. But oh wait that would still keep us on pretty even footing wouldn't it.....
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Post edited by capnshadow27 on
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Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
And an attempt to squash beam users from complaining beams wheren't good enough.
Basically just cause i can
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Beam Arrays are also in a good place right now performance wise.
FaW is bugged, as usually. And both could use some additional expansion of options for loadouts but that is slowly becoming less of an issue with all the special weapons added, although it is about time I would think for a 'special' weapon with 45 degree arc to be put into the game. Perhaps a dual heavy cannon that possessed a beams damage falloff would be interesting but being unique and perhaps lacking the added crit. Or they could just retro the quads for that I guess. I mean really cutting beam, rommy beam, FE beam, and now experimental beam that pretends to be a cannon is getting a bit silly one would think. In return an additional wide arc torpedo option could be included...
And lets just forget about single cannons completely and the dual beam as anything other than, nitch/secondary weapons. They are what need a look at.
Heck just give single cannons the damage falloff of beams, that would be huge! Duals really are intended as a secondary weapon by design I think so why not front-load their firing cycle so they only fire a single shot per cycle although without modifying their damage potential with BO that would get scary.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Cannons on the other hand are made for frontal assaults. Though the firing arc is only half as wide as for DBBs, the forward-orientation aids in using them in combination with a torpedo launcher or forward-oriented BOFF or Captain powers.
Gross damage output is, as the OP stated, fairly equivalent for beam ships with a 4/4 arrangement vs cannon ships with a 4/3 arrangement. However, the existing ships with a 5/3 arrangement (e.g. Avenger/Mogh and Kumari) favor cannons since having a larger fraction of one's weapons forward-mounted allows for the use of more of the heavy cannons.
An additional factor is the type of opponent being fought. Each type of ship (cruiser with beams vs escort with cannons) is more effective against its opposite type than against its own type. A cruiser can bring more firepower to bear against an enemy that is NOT in its optimal firing arc, and Beam Fire At Will can annihilate a swarm of enemy fighters, but against another heavy cruiser it is forced to attempt to "cross the T" like the broadside-firing sailing ships of the 15th-18th centuries, getting the enemy within its broadside arc while staying out of the enemy's own broadside arc.
Meanwhile, an escort can bring all of its firepower to bear against a slow opponent, keeping on the tail of a cruiser that can not dodge it quickly enough. On the other hand, the escort's rear turrets do less damage to enemies outside of the forward firing arc compared to the cruiser's beams, and there is no "fire at everything in all directions" ability comparable to Beam Fire At Will. Thus, enemy fighters must be targeted and swatted one by one, and nimble escorts or frigates must be engaged in a turning war, with each ship trying to out-turn the other.
In sum, the whole beams vs cannons issue is more of a rock-paper-scissors arrangement than a "one weapon to rule them all" situation.
That is very correct. Though that is usually overcome by decent - good piloting. Though i dont generally rely on Parsers to tell me who does better damage, or what kind of weapon is better. We talk quite a bit on here about builds, but i generally do all my true testing with Mk X white junk, so its all skill points and power levels. Beams and DHC's are neck and neck, in optimal firing patterns.
Very Correct. In most regards. I've always been a park and shoot chump in a cannon escort in PvE:rolleyes: Where as i only park my cruiser near immobile targets.
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Which term is singularly derisive? Beamer's or Cannon Jockey? Both terms are technically derisive, probably more so to whomever its directed at.
Being a Person that runs Cannon Jockey ships and Beam runners, i see them as descriptive and not really Derisive.
But if you terribly prefer i can change it to a nice boring cannon user and beam user, you know exactly what i am talking about and intentionally not mentioning which one you personally find derisive and which you dont.....well thats just rude. :rolleyes:
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Honestly, I want a whole new weapon type with turret firing arc, turret damage, and turret power drain. That way it can have a fleet version and won't look out of place on my ship. I feel uncomfortable enough with the KCB.
Sorry, but just wanted to point out that it was still frequently used in naval warfare in the early 20th century. I know it was still being used in WWII.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
"Crossing the T" is used by any type of ship that fires mainly broadside arcs--including pre-Dreadnought battleships and anything else that puts its main guns in mounts that can not fire fore and aft. However, most people think of "age of sail" ships with fixed gun mounts when they think of tactics dominated by "Crossing the T".
Well indeed... beams are inferior to cannons assuming you can keep the target in your cone of fire. Another thing is that cannons punch through to hull faster and actually blow things up faster.
Beams tend to tickle shields a lot which generates tons of DPS but far less actual kills.
DBB's with turrets however CAN be deadly when using BO as opposed to Fail At Will.
True, cannons melt shields and hull, but in the long run, while the DPS may change, the Overall damage is still the same. Kill a cube in 20 seconds doing a million damage or 50 seconds, while in my Tac im preferential to cannons, my Eng relies on beams. With should actually be vice versa as the Eng can keep an escort alive al ittle easier, and a tac can increase the dammage on a cruiser a little easier....
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Proper A2B build is making the content trivial if you use a beamboat. They should nerf a2b build one way or another, and then balance everything.
Aux2Bat isnt the only problem, you could easily put turrets and single cannons on a cruiser and do the same thing, or you could do it with an avenger with DHC's. Just saying people think to in the box.
I much prefer cycling EPtX with some Doffs that have achance to increase all power levels works way better IMHO
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Its about spiling out badly hidden insults against people who do not think like him.
Do not think like me? Have you ever seen any of my builds? I regularly use escorts with Cannons and Cruisers with Beams.
Sometimes i even use Escorts with Beams and Cruisers with Cannons :eek: I even have a fun little breen antiproton/transphasic build. I have little niche builds, Aux2Bat builds, Pure Tank builds, porr survivability/high DPS builds, builds centered around a rommie. The only builds i havent used/tested is ones for klingons cause i dont have one.
So as for thinking like me? Well sure they may not think like me but i do all sorts of builds so pretty sure i cannot insult others that use a build i have. Nor would i really try and ostracize people who help me with builds.
Please look into other posts i have posted in with my various builds. Before wrongly assuming i am "hiding insults against those who think differently"
If cannons where truly better noone would ever use beams, and if beams were better noone would use cannons. I have seen great builds with JUST TURRETS, and i dont insult them either. Put your personal Bias aside person, i havent even insulted anyone in this thread.......
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Thats mostly what this post is about, that the disparity in beams and cannons is only in how you use them. They are meant to be used differently.
Beams are supposed to be in it for the longer drawn out fight, and theEscorts quick in hit'n'runs.
I dont see why people need to bicker back and forth. Especailly when we are all supposed to be working together
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Me, I say enjoy what you have, and be glad you have it.
Very true and well said. I think i might take my Tac toon which has the doffs and such for one of thes OP builds and test it with Mk X white gear. Probably a phaser build and a single cannon/turret build jsut to see if i can get those little pop guns to be a tad more dangerous
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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I remember when it was Science Ships Online and PvPers were threatening to field entire teams of Intrepids in Ablative Armor because at the time it was the single most effective thing in the game. The Ablative would let the player laigh off a contemporary Escort buid's alpha and have enough CC to punish any failscort cheeky enough to stick around until the armor wore off.
I kinda hope Science comes back into the limelight sometime soon. We've bounced between Cruisers and Escorts a while, the blue career deserves another day in the sun.
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I wish i was a round in those days, i do very much enjoy a good CC build.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]