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Discussion: Should A2B/AUX2BATT builds exist?
burstdragon323
Member Posts: 853 Arc User
Personally, I've never used A2B. I always felt it was too much of a tradeoff nuking your AUX for extra DPS.
My vote:Cryptic should remove the A2B Formula.
My vote:Cryptic should remove the A2B Formula.
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So just because you don't use something it should be removed? I don't use A2B either, but come on. Fail argument is fail.
Support 90 degree arc limitation on BFaW! Save our ships from looking like flying disco balls of dumb!
Hear hear!
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
With that build (that I personally never use either) cruisers can do damage on par with escorts, arguably it's the one trick up its sleeve to make cruisers worthwhile.
Before this trick came along it was always the 'escorts online' argument. Tell me, have you heard this recently? Is it bad that we don't hear such things these days?
What we should be discussing is when science captains get such a trick up its sleeve, then for the first time since I've been playing all careers could be considered equal in terms of damage output.
His icon is Trollface... ... ...
I am not overly fond of A2B myself because it can get near on exploity but I do not really care all that much. In PvP they can be sitting ducks for some builds I love to use so that can be fun and in PvE they are great for getting rid of annoying spam which sense the Voth seems to be immense.
Science ships have Drain and Crowd Control. If you use these right they are murderous and can make you wonder what good Cruisers or Escorts are.
I use A2B in most of my builds purely because the cooldown reduction allows a versatility of abilities that you cannot otherwise achieve - and even running two copies back-to-back it's more or less risk-free if you know what you're doing.
I don't think it should be removed as a build option altogether, but I do strongly believe that cutting the number of technicians you can slot to 2 or even 1, or cutting the maximum cooldown reduction to half what it is per technician (so maximum 15% reduction per activation with 3 purple techs), would go a long way to properly balancing A2B.
Escorts, science vessels and even carriers can use A2B to great effect - just because it helps cruisers be a little more competitive as well, doesn't make it fine as a mechanic.
A2B is a gimick build, that costs the user a small fortune in EC etc. They pay their money, they make their choice. But it truly does allow beam users with the right bridge officer slots (it has little to do with ship types, more to do with BO layout and weapon type, let's not go down the aged and mouldy escorts vs cruisers argument path eh. lol) to perform on a par with at the very least cannon users.
All I can say is that pugging STFs in BIG ships with DHCs and turrets I have yet to bump into any of these super A2B dpsers I keep reading about as I guess they're only running with people from the DPS channels, so it's having NO impact upon my gameplay at all.
As to from a PvP perspective, I don't have one as I don't PvP in STO. I do however feel that how skills and equipment behave in PvP should be separated from how they do in PvE. I strongly believe that it's the only way to get even close to balance in EITHER game type without messing up the balance in the other one.
A "good" a2b build, IE 3 purple tech + 2 A2b + DEM + Marion + BFAW is an insane DPS. A "tanky" cruiser that can do a lot more damage than a "squishy" escort.
Escorts should ALWAYS do more DPS than cruiser. Cruisers by themselves have more passive and active tanking skills. Also, cannons have a very limited damage arc, compared to cruisers. And they can't broadside. Tac oriented cruiser (avenger for example) should have a DPS that is near an escort, but not more.
Cruisers tank more, have a huge arc, and can keep moving while shooting (which is extremely powerful in the breach/fightint Voths, or just to keep defense up). They shouldn't have more DPS, or the escorts are simply useless, except for pvp and alpha strike, which is limited.
A2b should exist. It's a good skill by itself, and I use it on soem ships (1copy only, and without DEM/marion). The techs are neat to, and not so OP.
They should remove the ability to use 2 A2B in a row, and they never should decrease the CD of themselves/another A2B. Having a build that cut every BOFF cd by half, meaning each BOFF is worth 2 of them is really OP. It basically DOUBLE the seating of any ship. And what's the drawback for that ? No aux for half the time. Yeah right, scary...
BTW, I'm doing 20k+ with my A2b Scimitar, using blue/green stuff. Same character and gear, using a mogai/arkiff, I'm doing around 8K. That's not normal at all.
However, it seems it's fine from Cryptic POV, I've seen Bran using this build during a livestream. No use for escort, and even less for sci ship. Just take a tac cruiser, or a scimitar, and A2B it for a crazy DPS.
Technicians haven't changed since then, the rest of the game has.
New ships (for Fed and KDF, along with the Romulan faction and new lockbox ships), rep systems, other DOFFs (Marion didn't exist before A2B was a thing, the RSP DOFF didn't exist, etc), and so on.
A2B is just a core in many builds. But it isn't the cause of the 'gripes', just the focus of what people gripe on.
Let's not forget that A2B shared a global cooldown with EPtX powers back then.
PvP, ok I get it, it feels like you have to run it to compete, but a lot of folks complaining seem to be complaining from a PvE perspective where the only thing that should bother you is if a team mate is doing LOW DPS?
The only other reasons for griping if you are a PvE player are: 1) Fear of change, 2) Jealousy because you can't afford it or 3) Special snow flake syndrome (the same folks who call builds that are optimal cookie cutter, and those who run them they call noobs...).
Keep in mind as I mentioned before, I don't run A2B (mainly because I can't be bothered to get the doffs... lol).
Indeed. And to be fair, the other EPTX abilities outside of ETPS sucked eggs pretty hard back then too.
Seems people are too afraid to take off the training wheels. You guys suck that bad? You're that horrible you need your cool downs reduced with some cheap 'loser' method? Can't compete the normal way? Good players with honor are getting very rare...
I would rather uninstall the game before resorting to aux2batt. Oh, I have a good quote for this:
"Leave it to the humans to abuse something until the game isn't fun anymore."
--Vorie Zinora--
Omega Force Hybrida
Quoted for TRUTH
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Lol, yeah. Remember the old EPtA?
Well, let's say I fly a sci/sci. I have been known to do so, because I enjoy it. Suddenly, by the time I get into position to pop my first sci skills, 3/4 of the left side in ISE is already vaporised. By the time the cooldown on my GW is over, half the right side has been blasted too, while someone waltzed over the spheres at the gate before my TR had time to kick in. Then, I do have time to Sensor Scan the tac cube, but that only ensured the thing went down in less than 10 seconds.
Yeah. That was a typical sci/sci run when in a team with 2 scimi's, an Avenger and a Mogh, all FaW A2Bing away...
Now, having shelved my sci (as I pretty much have, these days, except for some rare pvp), I try again with a single target dps tac. Yeah, I think you get the idea - I spike one thing to death in the same time other people kill all the other things.
And I've tried A2B FaW spam. Really. On various characters. And I've tried to enjoy it. But I didn't.
Because it pulls the rug out from under any tactics, skill and cooperation. And there wasn't a whole lot of that in PvE as it was. The most tricky thing about the whole thing was setting up the keybind - and I have a very handy GUI application for that.
It also pretty much voids the point of running anything but these few builds, really. Tanking builds and science stuff in particular feel extremely pointless, in such a gameplay environment.
I don't know. It just doesn't feel fun to me and it doesn't seem conducive to longterm game success.
2.) People in PVE complain about this because nobody likes to feel useless, and that's exactly what happens when you have 1 player that can basically solo the mission faster than everybody else can team it.
It is as valid a tactic and skill as being a camper in call o' duty.
Just because you dont like it doesnt mean it isnt there, and half the people are mad about it because it got posted and spread like wildfire. But it was made by people who work hard on builds.
You may be a stronger player for not needing it but that doesnt make you any better, or them any worse. Bear in mind i fiddled with one of those builds on ONE toon, and found it wasnt much fun so i switched to so more basic builds and more traditionally styled things.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Even my Cat could fly A2B Cruisers and would get ridiculous DPS.
Should they exist in game? Shure, why not?
There is only one thing what is epic fail: DPS race missions!
Ok there are more fails: bugs ... and adventure zones, grinding with the same 4 stupid missions etc ...
But nothing is more dull than this moardpsforbetterrewards
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
This ^
FFs this.
There's not that much wrong with Aux2Bat. It existed for a long time without getting all FotM.
The things that make it an issue and wildly popular are all things that came recently.
- DEM Doff (Marion)
- Nukara rep console
- fleet neutronium consoles
- easy to get fleet beam arrays
- more tactically oriented cruisers like the fleet excelsior, fleet assault cruiser and avenger
- Battery CD Doff / Beam Overload (Shield piercing) Doff
It's a complex power creep problem. And, as has been mentioned above, it is a game mechanic/mission design problem. Not just 'Hurr Durr, Aux2Bat evil!'.
The notion that escorts are "squishy" has been bunkus for even longer than the notion that cruisers can't
You're also ignoring several key points:
1. The highest DPS boat is actually an Escort-rigged boat, not an ATB boat at all.
2. Nothing stops you from putting beams on your escort. There's no rule saying you MUST put cannons on your Escort. Escorts are just as capable of using beams, if not more so. Remember: The highest-damage boat is actually a Patrol Escort-rigged Scimitar using beams, with no ATB at all.
He's still trolling bud, look at the wording, it's designed to insult and illicit anger.
Those arguing pro A2B are LOSERS - Obvious troll.
Learn to play tho - Again, insulting and badly written trolling.
Yet to see a troll actually admit to been one, would kind of defeat the whole object.
I have absolutely NO problem with those who present properly written arguments, with actual reasons. This guy though is just setting out to insult as many people as possible and make the argument a more heated one. This is trolling, and best ignored.
The other arguments consist of "I can't keep up with those running A2B". Seriously? I NEVER run A2B and manage to keep up just fine. A straight up no frills DHC escort build can do 11k encDPS easily with the right equipment and a basic EptW FaW build can do 14k and upwards enc DPS easily, with no A2B.
This is where folks start complaing that you need pay2win/rep equipment to do this. Yup, but that's not A2Bs fault, it's just the design of the game.
I've only ever felt useless in an eSTF once, and I was trying out the standard Obelisk on a tac. Didn't help that the entire team were as useless as I was. lol
Honestly though, if I have EVER been in an eSTF with somebody running an allegedly OP A2B build I didn't notice. The most I've ever been beaten by in a pugged eSTF was 2k DPS by a DHC weidling Tal Shiar Adapted Cruiser when I was flying an EptW FaW Scimitar..... The only time I suspect I might have been we were both flying DHC Scimitars, and we killed the gate in vortex before killing the transformers. We all had to go back and pop them before Donatra would spawn... I wonder if any of the other 3 ships raged thinking I was running A2B?
A build been better than yours doesn't always making it OP, it often just makes your own sub-optimal. As to running a sci and feeling useless, that's not A2Bs fault, this was the case even before A2B. lol Grav well is very useful on/to a tac though in eSTFs, keeps the sphere spam in one place so you can blow them up faster. lol I hate chasing the little things around the gate for ages....
Sorry, but this is not going to just subside, Cryptic. I hope you guys wasn't hoping for that. You limit all other 'CHEATING' game mechanics, but let this one-- the worse one slide? At least let the sub-nucleonic duty officers stack again to counter Aux2batt users in PVP. Better yet no more bridge officers in space. (That was a joke by the way).
Seriously why do this aux to battery + Duty officer mechanic exist? To give newbie players a shot at winning something? "Now everyone has a chance." Shouldn't people Learn how to play before winning? All I see is this: "I use these skills with these duty officers = win. Yay I won." Then people wonder why I call them noobs. Really, they don't know why. It's like using a sword in a boxing match, or speed enhancing drugs in a race. You didn't win, you cheated. "But this game awards 'cheaters'." A real shame.
If aux2batt wasn't a problem you wouldn't see so many threads on it. FACT.
You're working very hard on proving that you're a troll there don't you think?
As to threads demanding the nerf of A2B. The same TINY number of people making post after post, and thread after thread, ISN'T indicative of a problem. It's indiciative of a very vocal minority who thinks that they can get their way by trying to bully poeople and throwing tantrums. It's always the same names, time and again, over and over and over and over. They they demand to know why Cryptic are ignoring so many threads and posts, when they're all by the same tiny minority group... Just like the countless other complaining threads demanding this that or the other.
Learn to play.
You're a loser.
You're cheating.
Accusing the people coming up with an actual argument of been trolls....
Ahhh the language of trolls. I reckon we should call it trollglish, or trollese or the like. You just need to tell people to suck it up now to complete the picture.
If Aux2Batt was a problem, the threads and posts would be by a much larger variety of people rather than the same few. FACT. They're not. Also FACT (altough, last I look FACT was the Federation Against Copyright Theft... lol).
Oh, and can I just ask why you like to highlight sections of your posts in putrid green text?
You think STO has cheaters? Go try one of the MMOs that really does, where their are aim bot users everywhere. They're easy to find as they're on the forums to said games telling other players that they're just noobs and to learn to play/aim when the other players complain about been one shot by a character that wasn't even facing them. :rolleyes:
I really should take my own advice and just ignore your trolling.
As for A2B that can't use a2sif, that's true, but that's far from the only heal they can use, and since they have half the CD on anything, they can use them twice as much as anyone else. And a good a2b player will know he is out of auxiliary power only half the time, the other half, the auxiliary is like normal, and abilities like HE can be used at this moment. The auxiliary can then drop, it doesn't matter, HE check your auxiliary power when cast, and the healing value stay the same for as long as the HoT is running.
1. Right, that's why DPS X channels have a special rule for (wait for it)... a2b ships. With a single target, the escort will probably win. But once you start to have 2 or more targets, it's over, and almost all the pve is about multitargeting.
2. Sure, a lot of escort can rig a2b builds....(that is sarcasm for the Sheldon). And if you don't see the problem when everyone is asked to use a single build, and forget about cannons (Dual heavies, dual, single), turrets and dual beam bank for a single weapon type, there is nothing I can do.
a2b+beam is basically all the advantages, without any meaningful drawback. Doubling BOFF abilities ? Check. Almost no energy drain for weapons half the time ? Check. Ability to use 250? arc weapons, and circle around the target (more defense, help avoiding aoes and the likes) ? Check. Less falloff ? Check.
What cannons have ? 45? arc. More or less forced to use turrets (the lowest DPS weapon) in the back. Unable to circle around the target, forcing the ship to make attack run (a lot less efficient). Serious firepower loss over 5km.
But you're working very hard on keeping this game crappy and broken. You're going defend these cheaters to death. Right on dude, you're hardcore. The real players agree with me, tho. Keep calling me troll, because I'm sure that's all you can do. You sound like you can't play worth a **** anyway. Yes, keep on supporting broken mechanics. You're trolling STO for supporting broken mechanics.
So you want the game ruined? Okay well, and people call me a troll... Hmmm. How dare I try to make the game better. Silly me, I should be supporting everything that's gonna make the game crappy, boring, and so simple a blind monkey can play it. Never...
Sorry to ruin your day... Not.
It makes the ship better as a healer, a tank, and it can deal a fair bit of damage.