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SCI in an Avenger?
brangel13
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Curious, anyone attempt a SCI in an Avenger Class ship? I purchased the Avenger for my Tac alt. However was curious to know if anyone tried a SCI toon?
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When I want a Sci-heavy boff loadout on my Sci, I always default back to a Vesta though.
There are much better and more powerful options available for sci captains, including the WW prize Chel Grett this year.
If there are better ships than the avenger for sci captains, then those same ships are better than the avenger for tac captains. A science captain does not use science bridge officers more effectively than tac or engi captains. (although one can argue that tac captains make sci boffs more effective than sci captains, but thats another subject entirely)
That's right, remember character creation, cryptic described the three career paths. Enginears tank, Science captains heal, tactical captains pew pew right?
WRONG
The only place any semblance of the trinity exists in STO is on the ground, and even there changing your kit can be a bigger change to your role then changing your captain.
In space there are three differences between captain types.
1) Which bridge officer abilities you can personally train. You can still get any of these abilities, just ask some one of the right class to train your officer for you.
2) Which career specific traits you have access too:
Enginears:
EPS Manifold Efficiency (helps all roles)
Grace Under Fire (helps tank)
Science:
Conservation of Energy (helps do damage)
Photonic Capacitor (helps do damage)
Tactical:
Crippling Fire (helps tank)
Last Ditch Effort (helps tank)
3) Which active captain abilities you get:
Engineers:
Rotate Shield Frequency (helps tank)
Miracle Worker (helps tank)
Engineering Fleet (helps every one in group tank)
EPS Power Transfer (helps all roles)
Nadion Inversion (helps do damage)
Science:
Sensor Scan (helps do damage)
Subnucleonic Beam (Helps all roles)
Science Fleet (helps every one in group tank)
Scattering Field (helps tank)
Photonic Fleet (helps do damage)
Tactical:
Attack Pattern Alpha (helps do damage)
Fire on my Mark (helps do damage)
Tactical Fleet (helps every one in group do damage)
Tactical Initiative (helps do damage)
Go Down Fighting (helps do damage)
So what do we see? The first difference does not limit or control our role in any way. The second difference actually opposes the presentation of the classes in the case of science and tactical captains. Only the third difference plays any part in enhancing our captains ability to conform to their predefined role.
In the case of the tactical captain their unique abilities are focused and purpose oriented. They genuinely do focus on doing more damage then the other classes. In the case of engineering and science captains their abilities are not so tightly confined.
It is also important to note that all 5 captain abilities for all 5 captains have cool downs that prevent their continual use. Taken on their own, only the tactical captain has enough abilities dedicated to his role to keep some sort of constant benefit to it going.
The truth is that our role in space is defined first and foremost not by our captain abilities but by our bridge officer abilities. These are the abilities we can sustain, and these are the abilities which enable us to do what we do. If your build relies on your captain abilities to perform its function it is a bad build. Any ship should be able to perform well, be it cruiser escort or science ship without the need for you to touch any captain powers.
So as to the avenger with a science captain? Well the avenger is a fantastic little ship if you know what to do with it, as such it will perform very well regardless of your captain type, so by all means try it out. I am doing very well in it using a science captain and some damage control duty officers.
many people see the sci captain only relevant with alot of sci boff powers at his desposal.
that is targ TRIBBLE. captain abilities of a sci do not even correspond to any skills in the sci department. scattering field profits from higher aux powerlevels, sensor scan and starship sensors don't interact to increase the resi debuff...that is about it.
what does a sci captain add to an avenger?
Well, everything it would add to any other ship...it's captain abilities which are usefull depending on the situation.
so, how many sci boff slots a ship has is irrelevant to the performance of the sci captain in said ship.
the problem i see is, that the avenger is build for DPS and not for support. so trying to make it a support cruiser is futile. That is because of the ship stats and not because of the captain's career.
at the intended role (being a dps cruiser) a tac captain will outperform the other 2 classes. but that doesn't in the slightest mean the other 2 classes wouldn't be effective in the captain's chair of that ship.
thx, pwestolemyname for that!
this is something everybody should keep in mind...100% true, and i more than just agree with that, i think that should close the "career - ship" debate.
Uhm, while you are somewhat right, the ship types are about to get reworked, an engineer can actually get MORE out of an cruiser (with attract fire active)
because his captain skills allow him to take a tac cube head on without breaking a sweat.
Escorts allready benefit the most from having a tac captain (yes engi and sci can make a escort work too, but they will allways stay behind a tac)
sci ships just have not been reworked so far, but id bet that after it is done, sci captains will benefit most from using a sci ship.
And yes, other captain/ship combos will allways be viable, but for min/maxing your captain, sticking to your ship type, brings the biggest reward.
Don't listen to the drivel. A sci doesn't need to be in a sci ship. A sci doesn't even need to be in a sci-heavy shp. And a sci ship doesn't need a sci captain. In fact, I find in most cases sci/sci, eng/cruiser, and tac/escort are examples of over-specialization (Less so a tac/escort.)
It took some time before I fully understood that myself. As a sci I wouldn't fly a ship if it didn't have at least a LtCom sci. In time I came to better appreciate the system. A sci in a cruiser tanks as well, and in some cases better) then an engineer. A sci in an escort is often a stronger pilot then a tac, particularly in PvP.
Sci captains, while not strictly a "jack of all trades," can certainly wear that hat if they so wish. In the case of a cruiser captain, each and every sci captain ability can be used defensively. Photonic Fleet grabs agro so they take fire, and they often heal you. A doffed Sensor Scan is a beautiful thing, as well.
Things are a little less rosy in the DPS department. No doffs to suddenly make Scattering Field increase your DPS or anything, but when laid out side by side there is still not a ton of difference between a sci and a tac. The tac has those strong tac buffs, but sci gets Subnuke... If I survive your alpha strike then I get the leg up, as I can Subnuke when I want to and bring the fight to my terms. Conveniently, I have an array of defensive cooldowns to deal with alpha strikes.
In the same vain, I think most cases a sci ship is best served by a Tac or an Eng. A tac/vesta is capable of some amazingly nasty things. An Eng in a sci ship can bring enough solid hull defense to help make up for their relative lack of hull, making a tanking sci ship a bit more viable then when I try those same setups on my sci.
Moral of the story: The sooner you break the connection that "Sci is for sci ship" the better off you will be. Any captain type can perform well in any ship type. The way the skill system works how you spend your skill points has a far, far more profound effect on how you play then the 4 little buttons with long cooldowns that you get for choosing your captain type.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
My tac and sci in a cruiser can take on a tac cube head on without breaking a sweat. Infact, I hate it when I get outside heals on my tac in a cruiser. I purposely withold using defensive skills to get below 50% hulls so I can push out more damage with Go Down Fighting.
I fail to see how escorts benefit the most from having a tac captain, unless you equate damage to escorts. If so, then every single ship benefits the most from having a tac captain because the highest DPS ships aren't high turn rate ships.
It's narrow in focus... but in a game that is so heavily skewed in favor of damage, it is also a good focus.
Damage has the distinction of being the one role that you don't ever get enough of. There comes a point where adding more defense is a waste. Alive is alive, and an extra cooldown or heal isn't going to make me any more alive. If I have enough control to lock down every spawn, adding a redundant gravity well or tractor beam isn't going to make be any better at my job.
No matter how much damage you do, you could have done more, and it would have been helpful.
There is a reason I didn't call out tac/escort as over-specialized. The only time you are over specialized for damage is when you have sacrificed too much survivability for it, as a dead captain does 0 DPS.
And yes, other ships can reach a higher potential DPS then escorts, but that doesn't immeadiately make them a better choice. Many of those "DPS god ships" aren't that great in PvP (Scimitars and JHDCs come to mind immediately) A tac/escort is a far more reliable source of PvP damage. The maneuverability makes a difference. Also, altho it can be hard to tell from looking at raw numbers, a cannon escort's damage is "better" in most cases. A beam boat can hit some crazy numbers, but its spread all over the bloody place. When I wan't a specific target dead at a specific time, I want my tac/scort buddies to take care of it, not some FAW cruiser.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
For PvE, if all you care about is damage, one can argue that every ship benefits the most from being a Tac captain. In that case, I fail to see how a captain "sticking to their ship types brings the biggest reward".
For PvP, an escort that can't break through an opponents skill buffs does no damage. A sci in an escort can wipe out their buffs in a flash allowing you to actually deal damage. In this case, I still fail to see how a captain "sticking to their ship types brings the biggest reward".
I'm simply stating that a tac/escort is likely the best choice of the 3 to fly in the ship they are "supposed" to.
I rarely fly a pure sci ship... It's either my Mobius, Avenger, or Ambassador.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
For reference:
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
You are forgetting something, a Sci in a Sci ship is hardly overspecialised,
if you want to run your Photonic fleet every 120 seconds instead of 240 seconds, you need those Sci abbilitys to keep your photonic cap running. (doubling the Photonic fleets dps output)
Something similar is going on for Eng/Cruisers, while you are right, you are either alive or not, and after a certain point, more defense is not going to help you much,
i would consider, that given the rather low shield/hull of Escort class Ships, a Eng captain in an escort runs allways the risk of getting simply 2 shot before he can use his innate defense skills, so, the larger buffer, actually plays quite well into the skillset of a Engineer,
allowing for more potential damage (death captain 0 dps as you allready stated)
And yes, i still agree, every career can fly any ship and produce good results,
but i would simply not call the suggested combinations "over specialised"
Especially because you need to take incredible stupid power creep into consideration,
the "Elite" modes we have now, are simply not designed for the gear we have now,
if you would do them with a team in all blue/green with some blue/green doffs,
(lets call it entry level gear) you would see that the synergies between career and ship class are far bigger, then when you do it in all fleet gear, perfect doff setup, ships.